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Chapter 1: What announcement did Keir Starmer make regarding social media for kids?
Today is a big moment for our country. This is a big step. Real change for our children and our future.
On Monday, Keir Starmer made a big announcement.
Because today I can announce that the government will ban access to social media for all children under the age of 16.
Nine out of 10 parents support the ban, according to the government. But children, well, they are not quite so keen.
So what do you think of the social media ban for under 16s?
Does it include YouTube?
Yeah.
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Chapter 2: How do parents and children feel about the social media ban?
I'm probably just going to watch every single YouTube video in the world before then. This is 11-year-old Garvey talking to his mum, Rosie.
My friends, they're not very happy with the decision either. What have they said? They've said Keir Starmer's so annoying. Snapchat, for example, is one of the best things that's happened to me. And that sounds really sad, and this is what this generation has come to, but I don't think adults understand. It's not going to affect them. That is how we talk to our friends and fit in. This is Grace.
Chapter 3: What details are known about the specifics of the social media ban?
She's 13.
I just genuinely love how I can communicate with my friends, but also TikTok. Like, I love sending memes to my friends. And that sounds like little things, but we've grown up with this in that generation. And I think instead of completely removing it, we should be allowed to explore it, but in a safe way. I like watching funny animal videos and seeing what my friends are up to with their stories.
I normally scroll on these apps but from time to time I post dance videos because I really like dancing. This is Fabio, aged 12. Fabio's mum, Nicola, disagrees. I used to let my son post videos of himself dancing.
Chapter 4: Which social media platforms are affected by the ban?
He sold this to me because all of his friends were doing it. So he wanted to connect with them. He wanted to connect with other people in the dance world. And he also wanted to see himself improving over time. I allowed him to do it.
And then after the first few videos, I went and had a look at the viewer analytics and it was all men between the ages of 40 and 60, not other young dancing children. And that just was horrible. So I suppose this law gives them a little bit of protection, but it also gives us parents a legal basis to disallow things. And it's not just mum being a party pooper.
From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pidd. Today in Focus, is this the end of Infinite Scroll for our children? Chris Stoke-Walker, welcome back to Today in Focus. Great to see you.
Thanks for having me.
So you're a technology journalist who's been following the anti-social media wave across the world very closely in recent years. And Keir Starmer, for reasons that we will probably speculate about a bit later in this episode, announced a pretty draconian ban for the UK on Monday. Can you just tell us first what exactly is included in this ban, what is not, and how is it going to work in practice?
Well, it's exceptionally difficult to actually know, Helen, because as we have probably going to get onto a little bit later on, this seems relatively last minute. But we understand the broad brushstrokes of what this is going to be.
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Chapter 5: How are children in Australia responding to their social media ban?
So it's been touted as an Australia Plus approach. Some of the platforms that have been named as being targeted as part of this ban. include the likes of YouTube, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, a few others as well. That's the Australia part of this. The plus side is where the government is claiming this is really revolutionary. And that, as far as we can tell, seems to encompass two broad areas.
Number one, they're going to be tackling live streaming and gaming services. And then also they have this element here of a curfew, which is... Plus borrowed from China, effectively, where actually if it's a certain time of night, you probably won't be allowed to use your phone if you are not of age.
And which apps are not included in this ban?
So messaging apps are seen as outside of the purview of this. That's the one thing that we really do know in detail. So things like WhatsApp, you will still be able to use.
And what about Telegram, Discord? Are they on the banned list or not?
We don't know. I'm not certain that they are. Telegram, obviously, hugely concerning, actually, in terms of all the messaging apps.
The latest app that is sounding the alarm is Telegram Messenger, commonly known as Telegram. And just this week, the app's CEO is now under preliminary charges over alleged criminal activity on this platform.
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Chapter 6: What challenges do governments face in enforcing social media bans?
that is probably the one in which you wouldn't want your kid to necessarily be on yet there seems to be these odd loopholes that might well be ironed out in the fullness of time by the government it just they they're not necessarily so strong on the detail at this stage yet but i think youtube kids is also not included right so that so it's not that children can't watch youtube anymore but they can only watch the one that has been specially curated for them
Yes, that's correct. They can watch cartoons for five-year-olds if you are a 13-year-old, which I'm sure will thrill the 13-year-olds of the UK. I mean, that is an interesting distinction, right? Because YouTube sits outside of this whole thing in a weird way, yet is included in the social media ban. And I'm not really certain why, other than perhaps...
Keir Starmer doesn't like Mr. Beast or something like that.
I don't like Mr. Beast.
Nobody likes Mr. Beast. But there's a world of YouTube outside of Mr. Beast, Helen, which you can watch. And many of the people on there are actually really useful and really informative.
Yeah. One of the children that I asked about this, he's called Adam. He's nine and he's from Glasgow. He goes on adult YouTube to watch tutorials.
And I don't think there should be a ban on YouTube for under-16s because some people don't use it just for scrolling and scrolling and stuff like that. Like me, people use it for... Lego tips on how to build and art and miniature painting and drawing tutorials and stuff like that. So that's why I don't think there should be a ban on it.
That touches on, I think, one of the problems here, which is it doesn't feel like this whole thing has been thought through necessarily because actually...
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Chapter 7: What are the potential consequences of the ban on children and teens?
you could say, well, it's certain types of content on YouTube that shouldn't be watched, but actually it's just all of YouTube. And so good luck to you if you are in the GCSE class of 2027 trying to do some last minute revision on YouTube for important, complicated stuff, because you are not going to be able to.
And I mean, there were some reports, weren't there, that the onus is going to be on the phone companies, so Apple, Samsung, etc. And that when the devices are sold, that they're going to have to be checking who's going to be using it. The government has suggested on Tuesday morning that that isn't the case.
So whose responsibility is it going to be to make sure that there isn't a 13, 14, 15 year old who's borrowed somebody else's passport or just simply put in the wrong date of birth when they apply for an account?
Whoever fights the least against the government to have the responsibility for that is the truth, Helen. We've seen this not just in the UK, but we've seen this in Europe and elsewhere. There is a game of passing the parcel going on here. And every company in and around the tech space doesn't want to be the one still holding it when the music stops.
So we've also seen that the tech companies themselves saying they believe it's not their responsibility and saying, actually, it would be far easier. Yeah.
for the device yeah exactly everybody is everybody is passing the buck here they say that it would be easier for this to be a one-size-fits-all approach done on the device the government seems to be saying that they want it to be done individually at a social media app by app level that to me seems like madness but then truthfully the whole thing to me seems like madness
Yeah, and Keir Starmer described the ban as a line in the sand for tech companies. As you've already said, they're trying to pass the buck to others. But what are their primary objections? I mean, I saw Elon Musk tweeting on X that he called it a censorship law and that the real goal is to enable the UK government to track everyone.
I think that's certainly the view of those who ascribe to Donald Trump's sensibilities on this. And frankly, a lot of the tech sector at the minute is very much playing to the Trump administration because they know that that is the ultimate body that they have to answer to. I think it's not that.
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Chapter 8: Is banning social media the best solution for protecting children?
I just think it's a really poorly thought through solution. So it is an attempt, I think, to try and tackle a real issue. We've had
internal you know uh documentation from many of these big companies that has been released through whistleblowers through reporting by the guardian and others saying that actually they believe that there are elements of their apps that are harmful to younger users um but they don't want to say that mr zuckerberg did meta purposely design the platform children
He may be the CEO of a trillion dollar tech giant.
Do you have a message to the parents?
But today, Mark Zuckerberg was facing not just questions outside court, but also a lengthy cross-examination inside as well.
You can imagine that within these social media companies, there is a certain amount of panic about the direction of travel globally over these sorts of issues. And I'm sure like me, you've read the book called Careless People about life at the highest echelons of Facebook history. It's by a woman called Sarah Wynne Williams, who worked very closely with Mark Zuckerberg.
There's a gagging order that prevents her from talking about the allegations in the book now. But if you read it, it is clear that actually when countries were taking measures to ban or restrict Facebook, Zuckerberg and co were seriously worried about it. So can we assume then that these bans are causing serious consternation among Zuckerberg and his ilk?
Yeah, they are absolutely worried about this. I mean, we only need to look, for instance, at the fact that there has been public lawsuits that have found against these platforms for the harm against Kayleigh, KGM, as she was known, a teenager in the United States. And the fact that after that suit,
Big tech platforms have subsequently settled before they got to court other actions in a similar sort of vein. So I think there is a recognition here that social media platforms are a bit on the back foot when it comes to these sorts of things and that the tide is turning.
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