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Today with David McCullagh

The Gathering

24 Apr 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

0.773 - 6.548 Dr Emma Howard

Get in touch on WhatsApp 0870 32 32 32.

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8.772 - 26.329 David McCullagh

Now it is time for our Friday gathering and this week I'm joined by John Clendenin, Fine Gael TD for Offaly, by Matt Carthy, Sinn Féin spokesperson on justice and TD for Cavan Monaghan, Dr Emma Howard, economist at TU Dublin and Ashley Maloney, political reporter with the Irish Independent. You're all very welcome. Thanks a million for joining us.

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26.75 - 47.115 David McCullagh

Might start, John, with you and the question of income tax. Simon Harris has been banging on about income tax cuts in the next budget. Jack Chambers confirmed this week they're firmly on the table. We're in the middle of an economic crisis. We don't know what's going to happen in the Middle East. We're being chastised for runaway government spending. Are you seriously talking about tax cuts?

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47.756 - 61.794 John Clendennen

Well, it shouldn't come as a surprise anyway. First of all, David, this is part of a programme for government. It's subject to economic conditions. If you let me finish, we made it perfectly clear in Budget 1 that we wanted to target certain sectors and the most vulnerable in society.

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62.555 - 84.839 John Clendennen

But there is now a need to help people that are working, working people that see an opportunity to not just get by, but get ahead and put more money back in their pockets and reward work. And I think that is a reasonable outline to have. And, you know, you talk about what's happening in the Middle East and the escalation in relation to conflict. You know, we have... seen supports.

84.859 - 103.68 John Clendennen

We've seen three quarters of a billion euro in relation to fuel supports and I think governments have got a proven track record, whether it be the likes of COVID or energy spikes in the past where they have stepped up to the mark and provided support. So I think it's to try and reassure people at a time of so much uncertainty that there is support there from government.

103.66 - 118.595 John Clendennen

Okay, and is this definitely going to happen, do you think? Well, look, I think we have a process that we have to go through in relation to getting to Budget 2027. We're going to have a summary economic statement. I think we need to use the time ahead to listen, to listen to people on the ground, to engage with constituents.

Chapter 2: What are the current discussions around income tax cuts?

119.296 - 121.018 David McCullagh

Nobody ever refused a tax cut.

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121.258 - 129.246 John Clendennen

No, but let's get this right. And as I say, there is a commitment there, but let's make sure that it does work and that it is effective.

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129.226 - 132.071 David McCullagh

OK, Matt Carthy, are income tax cuts the way to go?

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132.411 - 154.828 Matt Carthy

So let's be very clear. Fianna Gael promised in black and white in their manifesto before the last election that there would be tax cuts every single year in every single budget. And in last year's budget, instead, what happened was that working people's lives were made more difficult because they were made worse off as a result of the budget that was brought in.

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154.808 - 177.888 Matt Carthy

brought forward by Fianna Gael and Fianna Fáil. So the truth of the matter is that people are in a cost of living crisis. I actually think it's bizarre that we're talking about next year's budget when people are struggling in the here and now. I meet workers and families who are telling me they can't even afford to drive to work. So we need measures in terms of supports.

178.128 - 199.108 Matt Carthy

What Sinn Féin have advocated in terms of tax packages is that we have to ensure that everybody benefits. So what we have suggested, and I think it's the fair proposition, is that the 45,000 euro of everybody's income is exempt from the USC. That's the type of measures that actually help everybody rather than measures that will only help the very wealthiest and so on.

199.088 - 204.554 David McCullagh

Yeah, well, I'm going to bring Emma in in a moment, but many economists would say that simply narrows the tax base.

204.574 - 224.978 Matt Carthy

Well, the difficulty is that people are under severe, severe pressure. I don't think that there's a realisation, certainly within government buildings, of just how hard-pressed people are. Well, if there was that realisation, then you would be moving much faster and much more comprehensively than you already are, John, because the truth of the matter is, as a result of last year's budget,

Chapter 3: How does the economic crisis impact tax policy decisions?

224.958 - 245.527 Matt Carthy

No tax package. So that meant, in effect, people's wages were decreased when you take into account inflation. College fees increased. Fuel increased. Rents increased. These were all measures that this government made. So rather than recognising the scale of the crisis, government have actually, in fact, made things worse.

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245.547 - 260.969 John Clendennen

OK, we'll let John come back there. David, when I listen to Matt, you know, I really do wonder about Sinn Féin, of any concept or grasp of finances at all. Like three quarters of a billion euro in the last three to four weeks. And you had to be dry kicking and screaming to introduce those and you didn't go far enough. It was made perfectly clear.

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261.57 - 276.213 John Clendennen

It was made perfectly clear when the first intervention was made that there would be continuous engagement with the different sectors. That continued over the course of the Easter recess and we came back with a bigger, stronger and more direct package that was the largest in Europe per capita. You know, this is totally overlooked by Sinn Féin.

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276.233 - 290.942 Aisling Moloney

I don't think it was abundantly clear to anyone that there would be a further package after the first £250 million was given. And although the government in the Dáil this week certainly resisted the calls for a mini-budget to be brought as called by the opposition,

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290.922 - 311.794 Aisling Moloney

They basically brought a mini budget in the form of that first 250 million and then the second package would brought it over 700 million. And, you know, that was after, obviously, consternation and a blockade across Ireland. So I don't think it was made abundantly clear. I know what the messaging after the crisis was. Well, we... We told you we were going to give you more money.

312.195 - 329.829 Aisling Moloney

And no, that wasn't made clear to anyone at the time. And like, I mean, we're sitting there in press conferences. We're asking them hundreds of questions essentially each week. And it wasn't made clear at that first intervention that there would be definitely more money coming, more engagement. Yes, they were engaging.

329.849 - 332.995 John Clendennen

You have to admit that there was a commitment that we would.

332.975 - 335.478 Aisling Moloney

I wouldn't say there was commitment. There was engagement for sure.

335.498 - 341.907 John Clendennen

Continue to monitor the uncertainty in the Middle East and address it accordingly. That is exactly what has happened here.

Chapter 4: What is Sinn Féin's stance on income tax cuts?

579.215 - 594.368 Aisling Moloney

And I suppose when you talk about the income tax as well, you know, the more tax breaks they give, the more they change that tax threshold band. I'm hearing kind of from sources that they wanted to... to change by about 2000, which wouldn't kind of be the sun, moon and the stars, but it would be a move for them.

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594.649 - 609.002 Aisling Moloney

That then, you know, does narrow the tax base when we are so reliant and there are calls for us to make sure that we diversify the tax base and that we do not rely overly on these companies, which are their corporation tax receipts to us. windfall in nature. They may not always be there.

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609.302 - 627.231 Aisling Moloney

You know, a shock to the sale of Monjaro, a shock to Apple or Microsoft, which are the Eli Lilly, as I mentioned, Monjaro. Any of those were reliant. If anything happens to any of those companies, you know, then Ireland's own economic picture could be dramatically changed. And that's a worrying scenario.

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627.271 - 646.595 Aisling Moloney

Any business person would know if they were relying, you know, on anything like that, that they would have to diversify their where they were getting their revenue from. So it's very difficult. And I think what we have at the moment is that obviously you negotiate the budget at this time of year. It comes in, we announce it in end of September, start of October.

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646.795 - 653.383 Aisling Moloney

And then it really hits the rubber, hits the road then in January when the effects come in. And that's what you're seeing now is that households didn't get

653.363 - 682.729 Aisling Moloney

or essentially around income tax so that's what Jack Chambers the Minister for Public Expenditure was saying this week that it would be personal taxation measures would be given priority in this year's budget and he said that last year's budget didn't give workers a break and the Finance Minister Simon Harris who's also the Tánaiste echoed that as well saying that the income tax package would be introduced at a time of challenge so they are committing the coalition it seems to go there for people because they're feeling the sting of not going there last year

682.709 - 685.612 David McCullagh

Are they wise to be this specific this early?

685.873 - 699.408 Aisling Moloney

Well, budget kite flying, like it nearly seems early and earlier every year. And then when you're at a press conference and you ask them about something, they're like, well, I'm not going to negotiate the budget with you here. But essentially then they do it often on their own terms in press conferences where they want to give a little nugget.

699.728 - 717.009 Aisling Moloney

I think maybe they're trying to also persuade back some of their supporters that might be really dissatisfied with them after what they saw with the protests yesterday. And the blockades, because there wasn't, I suppose, widespread condemnation of the blockades and the protests, which the government, I think, expected to happen.

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