Chapter 1: Who are the guests featured in this episode?
Today with David McCullough on RTE Radio 1. Listen back on the RTE Radio Player app.
Now it is time for our Friday gathering. This week I'm joined in studio by Thomas Byrne, Fianna Fáil TD for Me, They, East and Minister of State for European Affairs, Trade and Defence. By Louise Baylis, Head of Social Justice and Policy at St Vincent de Paul. Ellen Coyne, Political Correspondent with the Irish Times.
And joining us from our Limerick studio, Conor Sheehan, Labour TD for Limerick City and Spokesperson on Housing. You're all very welcome. Thanks a million for coming in. Just before we get into the discussion, Thomas... The US President Donald Trump says he's going to remove tariffs on Scottish whisky.
This is following the visit by King Charles and Queen Camilla, proving that soft diplomacy sometimes has an effect. There was a question about whether Irish whisky would be included, but it looks like it'll only be whisky from Northern Ireland, isn't it?
Well, look, I mean, it's like everything else with tariffs in America. I think it's a wait and see approach. And if I look at what the U.S. trade representative has said, that seems to be the approach even in the trade representative office. It is something that we are pursuing anyway and have been pursuing. The British have been pursuing this for Scotch in particular for quite some time.
And so have we. So let's see what comes out of this, as I understand it has not been implemented yet. But it does show, I think, the huge importance of trade agreements. Irish whiskey lives and dies by free trade. We saw in a number of trade agreements recently the benefits to the Irish drinks industry. I have to say, and I said this publicly.
But with the Mercosur trade agreement, there was literally no discussion from the industry or from anybody else about the benefits to the Irish drinks industry of the Mercosur trade agreement, which then benefits farmers as well.
And I think that we have to be really, really conscious of all sectors of the economy, agriculture, but this includes agriculture too, and other sectors when we're dealing with trade, and to keep pursuing those trade agreements to allow our products to be exported. We cannot drink enough whiskey in this country to keep all the distilleries going. We need to sell it abroad.
But obviously, if there's a price differential with Scotch, it's bad news.
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Chapter 2: What recent tariffs did the US President announce and why are they significant?
The government announced its support scheme for farmers, for agricultural contractors, for hauliers. Nothing for households. And if you can do targeted supports for hospitality, targeted supports for construction, for hauliers, why can't you give anything to ordinary householders?
Well, I think we wanted to make sure, first of all, with hauliers, I mean, they were deemed to be a priority at the very, very start because, again, just like I said, the country's an exporting economy. We need to get product, a physical product, out of the country and that needs lorry drivers.
So at the very start of this fuel shock, I think the Taoiseach and others identified that the position of hauliers was not just... extremely difficult for them. But if they had those difficulties, then it becomes extremely difficult for the rest of the country in terms of people who work in exporting industries, which is a huge part of the country. So decisions were made to do that.
There were decisions made around agricultural diesel as well. And then subsequently, a decision made to bring in a rebate for agriculture. Because they have to have some support in order to keep those industries going, which are absolutely essential, as I said, haulage and agriculture in terms of the food supply industry. to keep them going through the difficulties that they had.
So significant supports were brought in for them and I would encourage farmers and contractors and indeed hauliers to look at the details of that. Just to be clear, they're going to have a window during May, particularly on the farming side and the contractor side, to apply for this support.
Yeah, but I mean, I think people understand the rationale for that. But the SRI says one in seven people are now unable to afford to heat their home or pay their energy bill.
Yeah, and that is a very, very serious issue. We've seen before when electricity prices in particular went up dramatically during the Ukraine, the invasion of Ukraine, because of the price of natural gas, that we did bring in supports. And I certainly can't rule out the bringing in of those types of supports again if that proves necessary. I think that is necessary. I think we have to look...
at all of the at the situation of people who are clearly struggling struggling to pay bills and we need to make sure first of all that people are in employment and that we use every lever possible to reduce those bills and i know when i say it that we need to continue really hard in the direction of renewables people say oh we can't do that but we have to do it because it's the only way to remove the dependencies that we have on on the middle eastern
So you're not ruling out further support for households?
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Chapter 3: How is the Irish whiskey industry affected by trade agreements?
And we would also increase the bank levy to £500 million to pay for this. I mean, we were the first party to call for a mini-budget, but there are other parties who have subsequently joined us in that call. But unlike others, we are very clear about what we would cut in order to pay for these measures.
Okay, I want to bring Louise in. There was a lot of criticism from economists of general energy credits. Everybody got them, even if they didn't actually need them. And the government position is that they're going to increase welfare and targeted fuel allowance and so on and so forth. Is that a better way of doing it than just splashing the money for everyone?
I think it is. And I think yesterday the ESRI published their report and that really clearly indicated that they talked about the amount of households who were in energy poverty and it would take €480 a year to lift those out of poverty. To do that would cost about €360 million. What we did with the universal credit was 40% higher by €550 million, €575 million.
So a cheaper way and a way that actually targeted to where it needed to go was by, you know, lifting those families who are in energy poverty. We know clearly who they are. You know, they're people who are in receipt of fuel allowance. We know from the silk data, the survey and income and living conditions who are suffering the most at the moment. And it's very clearly that.
people with a disability, lone parents, and increasingly this year, which was quite shocking, a massive increase in the consistent poverty rates among older people living alone over 65.
And what are you seeing on the ground in terms of how people are coping with this or not coping with this?
They really aren't coping. There's an awful lot of people coming to our doors. A lot of people are coming where their electricity has been cut off because they're on a pay-as-you-go meter and they don't have the money to top up. That's a massive issue for us where we get really urgent calls asking volunteers to go out with vouchers to support them.
Last year we had the highest ever calls, 260,000 requests for assistance last year. This year we're 6% up on that already. So it is scary. Inevitably, of course, last year we gave 40.1 million of supports directly to households who came looking for a support. This year we're receiving less donations and obviously we've more calls for support.
So we're in a position where people aren't able to donate. So we're in a position where more people are looking for a share of a pie and the pie has gotten smaller.
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Chapter 4: What support is being provided to farmers and hauliers in Ireland?
I mean, that was a program for government commitment. Fine Gael obviously had it in their manifesto, it was negotiated and it was agreed to as part of the program for government commitment. We had to do it. But this year it's 230 something million. It would be a drop in the ocean if you wanted to sort of give fuel supports out of that.
We have, let's not forget, we have reduced diesel taxes quite significantly actually. The price would be much higher, the market price is higher, but we're down near our mid-table now in terms of the taxation that we take from it because we've reduced it very, very significantly.
We've also extended the fuel allowance season as well to give people a bit of help in the immediate aftermath of this crisis. But we cannot... No government can chop and change every couple of weeks in this. I think we should wait for the budget and we should wait to see... But you did chop and change.
You introduced a package. Then you introduced another one.
Well, because of the emergency circumstances that were there at the time, particularly in the cost of fuel. So we did that. Like, if we hadn't reduced... It would be significantly higher now. And that is a benefit that accrues to everybody across the country. And there's a package there for farmers.
I mean, one of the arguments that the farmers had a month ago was that they didn't get the same as what the general public got. So I think the government... Because there's lower tax on green diesel. Exactly, yeah. So the price is set internationally. So what I would say is, I mean, look, as Minister of European Affairs, I'm talking to my colleagues around Europe.
This situation is playing out not just in Europe, but all across the world. And it's not just a case of the fuel price. It's a case of fertilizer prices. It's a case of helium prices and supply of some of those goods as well, which in Africa, let's be honest, is going to cause millions of deaths.
And we're all governments, I think, are trying to navigate it with the hope and the expectation and the urging on the Americans that there would be. that there would be an end to this, and the Iranians as well, that if they can come to peace talks to end this, it brings relief to everybody.
And I have to say, I do question how long politically the US can take fuel price increases, because they've had them as well, and people can see what the particular reasons were for that. And I would hope that we will see some change in that that could bring some relief to it.
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Chapter 5: What are the challenges households face regarding energy costs?
Thomas Byrne, the war in Ukraine is still going on. We see nightly on our news about Russian drone attacks and missile attacks on civilians in Ukraine. Why do this now? It's not safe for families to go back to Ukraine.
Look, I think the level of support that we've given has been among the best in Europe and that, I have to say, is well appreciated in Ukraine. Every time we meet them, they thank us for the support they've given. As I understand it, the supports that will exist after this under the Temporary Protection Directive would be pretty similar to what's available around Europe.
Ukrainians can work here, they're educated here. They can live here because of the war and that is a very, very significant support for them. Ireland has given, I think, about half a billion euro to Ukraine. That's not including actually some of the accommodation costs here, but in terms of military support and development support in Ukraine.
And it is essential that this war ends and that they are supported to end it because that's the only way that the refugee crisis will end. And it's absolutely the case that Putin knows that by putting pressure on governments in terms of refugees, that helps his cause. So I think we have stepped up to the plate. We weren't obliged, by the way, at the very start.
to go with the Temporary Protection Directive because we're not in the Schengen. We're not walking away from it at all. We're still part of it.
The Ukrainians have still the right to come here, still the right to work, still the right to be educated, but the support's been tapered down in order that there would be more level with other countries and still acknowledging that there's a difficult situation there.
Conor Sheehan, these supports were always designed to be temporary, so isn't there some justification for the government saying, let's wind them down?
Well, there would be some justification for government winding them down, but government aren't winding them down. They're effectively ending them. And the fact of the matter is, what you're talking about here is pushing... 16,000 Ukrainian refugees into an overheated rental market. And that, in our view, puts them at risk of homelessness.
And it's going to make the rental market even hotter for all renters. And the fact of the matter is, is that the war is still ongoing. And while we are a militarily neutral country, we're not a politically neutral country. And I and my colleagues in the Labour Party see this as our contribution towards, you know, our act of solidarity towards Ukraine and the Ukrainian cause.
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Chapter 6: How is the government responding to the rising energy arrears?
To add 16,000 people plus the other 42, 58,000 people into a market where we've already seen family homelessness driven by 191%. It's scary and it's worrying apart from the humanitarian impact on the people actually in those houses.
But a lot of those people might be working. There's nothing to stop them paying the people they're living with.
No, no, absolutely. And if that works out, that's great. And I do think there is a justification for people who are working to pay their own ARP. But for those who aren't working, it is adding people into the market where it's already crowded.
Ellen, why now?
Well, there's actually been conversations about this going on in government for a long time. As far back as December 2024, there was actually a plan to phase out commercial accommodation by March of this year. That was more, though, from the perspective of a crisis of accommodation supply. This one is kind of different.
The government is trying to bridge the gap between what is morally right and fiscally prudent. There's a sense in government that The scale of Ukrainian supports are unsustainable and you kind of touched on it there. I think one of the things that has nearly gone against Ukrainian people is that they've integrated so well and so many of them are working.
The government thinks that that is politically unpalatable, that it's a threat to social cohesion to have some people effectively living in rent free accommodation when they could be working in the same small business or a small company as an Irish person who's paying rent. Okay, Thomas Byrne.
Just to be clear, it's not ending, it's been phased out.
The ARP has been wound down from August.
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