Chapter 1: What are the considerations when using punishment in dog training?
If you're using punishment, you should be given that same kind of consideration of learning and effort and understanding to the aversive side of it. But nobody likes to think about it. But by not thinking about it and by not understanding it, you use it like with less effect. No matter how distasteful the subject is, if you don't study
punishment and understand it and all its nuance you're more likely to do both of those things and i don't like to think about it either i don't want to think about causing aversive situations for my dog but because i give it thought i can use it when i need to i don't use it out of anger and i use it as much as it's needed no more than that but it's because i study it and understand it that i can do that
Ta-da!
What's going on, man? How you doing?
That's a really loaded question, man. What am I not doing? What am I not doing? Training for dogs, like personal for dogs, for competitions. I've lost my mind. Like, it's just total insanity.
Same sport or multiple sports?
No, no. Three are IGP and one is monduring. Nice.
and yeah they're just all of them really cool dogs and i guess i am kind of you know don't want to give them away i mean it's a big big mistake on my part huge mistake like every now you know well i cannot say that it's cold because who the fuck knows what what's the weather by you right now but for florida i mean you can see i'm i'm with a sweatshirt that doesn't happen often you know
right so but it's cold and and we go tracking man like i i go with three four dogs tracking every morning like i get up whatever close to six by 6 30 i've loaded the car i drive about 40 minutes or so late tracks every day i i feel like i'm hosting my own club trial daily To the point that my brain kind of starts to, you know, like, I don't remember the tracks or like they're different land.
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Chapter 2: How does Jay Jack blend martial arts and dog training?
You know, um, I never planned on that. I never thought about it.
Now I remember, sorry to interrupt, but I remember us having right here by the door, this conversation, and it was the fork between martial arts and dogs. And you ended up that way and ended up that way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we both had the same... It's like we're in dogs and martial arts. I did a left turn. Yeah. So it was this thing of like... As a kid, I grew up around bulldogs. Pipples. I grew up around pipples. And fighting dogs were really common in Louisiana where I grew up. And I also grew up doing martial arts. And so it's like... fighting was just part of the culture.
Like people fight, the dogs would fight, chickens would fight. Like it just fighting was just what we did. And so like, I grew up around, to me, normal dogs were pit bulls. I didn't really get around other dogs until I was in my thirties when I met my wife and she had regular, she had like a shepherd and like a chow.
And that was the first time I'd ever been around anything that wasn't like a game pit bull. And so pit bulls were normal to me. And, uh, I kind of, in my gym, like, because every school I was in, I would have my dog with me. I was just that guy that just showed up with my dog. And nobody wanted to be like, get out of here with your dog.
They were always like, we'll just... And you're walking in with the right breed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So everybody was like, everybody was letting it go. And also like people and people knew when I was very young, my dad had a reputation. And then once I got older, I had a reputation and like people were always like wanting to be on our good sides, you know?
And so they were, I'd show up with a dog and they'd be like, you tell them to leave.
Yeah.
and i was just nice i was like hey what's up guys how you doing and anyway so my dog was cool so like i didn't know about dog training at all i had no idea about quadrants i didn't know about reinforcement schedules i didn't know about classical i didn't know all i knew was how to work and live well with this pit bull like that's all i knew i knew how to work them and i knew how to i knew how to fulfill them and make them get along and a lot of it comes intuitively right yeah
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Chapter 3: What insights does Jay share about training multiple dogs?
So I had a lot of bandwidth with nowhere to put it. And I got this dog and it was a little human aggressive dog. Little, little old family.
But that's like one of the best things to happen to, to have something to kind of transfer all that into. Cause how, how many guys end up the career and, and, and it becomes really just goes, who knows where it can go, you know?
Yeah, if I didn't have my gym that could have hit me and that's the thing that we talk about a lot in the school now I try to get people involved in stuff outside martial arts because their whole identity becomes the thing, and then when they retire or get injured or whatever it's like, then they're like what am I now and they get real messed up, you know.
And so at least I had the gym and I was a teacher. I've always viewed myself as a teacher, not a I mean, I was a fighter for sure. But like in my heart, I knew like teaching was what I wanted to do. So I wasn't quite as fucked up when I retired from fighting. But a lot of people suffer. Anyway, I had this pit. I had this little pity. And my whole life was like human aggressive pitbulls.
You just put down like there was no I didn't understand anything. I had no idea. It was just like, they're supposed to kill dogs, but they're not supposed to kill people. And I had this dog and I'm looking at this dog and I'm like, dude, I've turned myself around. I had serious problems and I turned myself around. I've turned a shit ton of humans around.
And at the time I'd kind of rehabbed a bunch of dogs that were dog aggressive to kind of co-exist with other dogs. And I was like, why can't this be addressed?
too like i can't the answer can't just be shoot the dog it just can't do you know like i gotta investigate it and so i started all the brain power that i had previously been putting on my fighting career i was like well let me investigate this and i started studying dog training
and that led me all over the place you know i went to a i went to a purely positive person and i had these two young pitbulls and i went to a purely positive person yeah but that's not surprised because i mean all that is happening right at that time when positive just exploded
huge and i i had them and they were like tossing food on the floor between two dogs and i'm watching it i'm like they're gonna fight they're gonna fight why would you do you not understand pitbulls like what are you doing why i could see that coming you know and it was like it was this rescue this was a crazy story it was this rescue that was a pitbull rescue southern maine pitbull rescue he
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Chapter 4: How does Jay Jack's background influence his approach to dog training?
They're like, What kind of dog you have? I was like, pit bulls. They're like, well, what's your sport? I'm like, weight bull. They're like, are you in the right place, dude? Like, do you know where you are? I was like, yeah, I'm right place. Trust me. But I remember just being like the information I got from that weekend. That was actually the weekend you filmed Possession Games.
That's right. Yeah, that's right.
That was the weekend.
I just remember all the side talks we had, you know?
I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, that was, that was when you filmed possession games. And then I went home. I went, I went home, dude. The thing that made me feel like I was at least on the right track was when I went home after the seminar, I didn't know you were filming possession games. Like you hadn't told you were, you hadn't made that public. You were just compiling it.
You were just doing it. Right. I mean, we knew you were filming, but nobody knew it was
know what i can't even remember how we were filming it but i know we were filming and it was all of a sudden it got super muddy and nasty that i remember i mean we were like in a pit like we were it was like freaking yeah i had to get like knee-high rubber boots because it was just a mud pit dude it was bad yeah but i went home i went home and i wrote an article
Like I was doing a little blog and I wrote this article, like what I learned from Ivan Dolovanov. And I wrote this article about the stuff I'd learned. And I was just like, it wasn't money, it wasn't a career. I wasn't trying to make views or anything. I was just like cataloging the journey of stuff that I was learning as I was learning it.
And in some way, it kind of works for your own benefit too, because you're really replaying it. Yes.
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Chapter 5: What game does Jay use to teach about dog play dynamics?
I'll go, I'll get two volunteers and I whisper to one. I'm like, okay, so look, I'm going to tell you what your game is that you want to play with each other, right? You have to do this sometimes. It's amazing. I'll be like, I'm going to tell you what game you want to play. I'm going to tell you what game you want to play.
And then I'm going to let you try to figure out how to play with each other.
assume that you both want to play assume that you're motivated to play if you can figure it out great if you can't figure it out who cares but i want you to feel what dogs feel you can't use language you can't go two words sounds like you can't say soccer like you know you gotta yes yes yes yes i'll tell one i'll tell one you want to you want to like box and i'll tell the other one you want to play tag and you see these two people like right
and run it away.
Yeah.
So used and so like weird and awkward and just, and they always kind of Peter out and they're like, I don't, sometimes they learn how to, they'll do a little, an interesting mix. They'll like, they'll both see in this one. Okay. We'll chase a little bit.
Everybody gives in a little bit to, to care.
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Chapter 6: How does Jay explain the concept of play versus punishment?
Yes. Yes.
And so they'll play partner match and they'll negotiate terms of a game and then a game happens and everybody watched it happen real time and it's awesome. And sometimes they can't figure it out and they just will stop playing and we're like, okay. And I'll ask everybody in the audience, I'll go, okay, I'll ask the person number one, I'll go, what game did the other lady want to play?
And they'll go, I have no idea. And then I'll ask everybody in the audience, what game did the other lady want to play? And they're all like tag immediately. They're like clearly tag. And then I'll ask her, what game did they want to play? And they're like, I have no idea. And I'll ask the audience. They'll go, she wanted a box. Yeah.
That's like a classic Tony Robbins shit where he would ask you, look at everything in the room that's brown.
Chapter 7: What insights does Jay share about overcoming fear in training?
And then tell me what's green.
And you're like, what? I can't see it.
Yeah.
And I'll be like, look, this is how your dogs feel when you're trying to play with them. So like, if you didn't know any better, this person, if this person was a dog trainer trying to play with this person, you would diagnose that dog as low drive, not motivated to play. Like they have low play drive. You're like, get out of your fucking mind. You just make no sense.
They can't see your objective. I really like it.
I really like it. I'm actually taking this. Hopefully not too many people listen to this one, but I'm going to, I'm definitely doing this one or definitely doing this one, especially like, you know, like I know during
know like graduation time when students come we we have a night that we just go crazy with so many cool games this is becoming and definitely a game definitely but it gives people a visceral feel of this is what your dog feels when you're trying to force a game on it that it's not understanding and you're and it's trying to show you the game it wants to play and you're not seeing it
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Chapter 8: How do trainers misunderstand the role of aversives in dog training?
Like, that's the feeling that you give them. But then somebody would literally go, well, that dog's not going to play. That dog doesn't want to play. And you're like, man, that's a crazy misdiagnosis to then train that dog with nothing but negative reinforcement. It's not play-based. That's crazy. You know?
Cause you're stubborn. Yeah. What was the one Larry says that I, I always totally like with the toy
like jerking it off or something like what was actually he was saying remember like he there is a line he says about people playing tug of war and oh the porn whatever they're doing with the toy it was very cool ones he will say he'll say something like louder faster harder something like yeah yeah i'll tell people that they're making porn noises
And when they look at me and they go, what is that? I'm like, sounds of enthusiasm not related to effort. Because their dog's not doing anything. And they're like, what a big boy. And you're like, he's literally not moving. He's standing there. Like the dog will pull with everything he has and nobody says a word. And then he's standing there and they go, ooh, good boy.
And you're like, what are you doing?
These are classics.
He's not moving, dude. He's not moving. Or they'll do shit like while they're tugging. This is the line my wife hates. She hates this line. I'll say dog trainers play tug like frat boys fuck. Yeah. They're not connecting. They're not connecting with the other being and meeting their needs. They're just doing shit to them that they saw in a movie. Do you know what I mean?
You know what is another good one with kind of martial arts and dog training is the And actually, it's not even just that. I would guess it's with everything, but repetition. Repetition is a big deal because repetition can be so valuable and so, so bad. Yes. Depending what are you repeating?
So successive approximation is a real and valuable thing unless you don't understand everything. the successive part, right? You're like, well, we're just going to spend a bunch more time here. And you're like, no, you can't do that. Cause if you, there's value in going like, this is nowhere near correct, but it's on the path and it'll get us there.
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