Unblinded with Sean Callagy
Former Google Chief Decision Scientist Cassie Kozyrkov on AI, Decisions, and Human Responsibility
13 Jan 2026
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
when i was about eight or nine years old i discovered the most beautiful thing in the universe spreadsheets i had to go and go get full immersion in the decision disciplines i went to college when i was 15. i had actually growing up where i did i didn't realize how big the world was and she's way smarter than me by like a million X. Every single story is never about the genie.
It is about the unskilled wisher.
Chapter 2: What inspired Cassie Kozyrkov's early fascination with data?
Knowing what you want, that's the hardest thing, isn't it?
So when they're making their genie wishes pre-AI in the world of Unblinded, that was our matrix, our framework.
AI not autonomous in the sense that humans can wash their hands of responsibility for it. If a data point falls in a forest, does anybody care? And if information isn't connected to action, does it matter? Every company now is saying it's an AI company. And the leadership of these companies? Do they know what they're doing? If not, oh dear god.
Chapter 3: Why is decision-making considered the ultimate life skill?
Yes. But so what a welcome to the stage, the unblinded space, none other than Cassie Kloser-Kobb. Let's welcome Cassie on your feet. Come on. I said Cassie. I used to bite my tongue and hold my breath. Scared to rock the boat and make Cassie. You're from South Africa.
How fun is that? Is it all about zebras and giraffes?
Chapter 4: What misconceptions exist about AI and its autonomy?
No, no, we had a joke about that, and I'm like, I know that it's not all about zebras and giraffes.
Yeah, well, well, well, well, zebras and giraffes, yes, but don't forget the ostriches, which I have ridden an ostrich, which is a normal thing, right? It turns out, you know how when you cover the cage of your bird, it's like, nighttime, go to sleep. So you have this little bag that you cover the head with. That's your way to stop. Now you all know how to ride an ostrich.
Chapter 5: How does human judgment compare to machine intelligence?
That was your morning lesson you didn't expect.
And we've already uncovered ostrich riding. Tink, how happy are you that you've gotten ostrich riding lessons from Cassie? It's a win. It's a win for Tink, yes, who's also been to your great country. So just out of curiosity.
Chapter 6: What are the dangers of outsourcing judgment to AI?
In the dynamic of communication, what are some of the differences from your perspective between the culture of South African communication, whether in life and business, American communication, life and business? Yes, please, from your perspective, Cassie.
Well, I have to say that I like things to be, you know, exactly what it says on the tin. which essentially means that if I were in charge of marketing, that would be terrible because the point of marketing is if you tell the thing exactly like it is, then what's the value add, right? But the just straightforward, no adding any embellishments, keeping things insufficiently heroic.
Chapter 7: What ethical responsibilities do leaders have in an AI-driven world?
I know I could use a little bit of a heroism injection, but there's a, I guess, there's definitely a feeling sometimes of, that there needs to be translation between When I hear an American talking about something and when I say exactly the same thing, there could be two different levels there.
Well, thank you for that. So, yeah. So we love this because in this space on Blinded, we talk about empathy, respect, precision and directness. So would you already be relating to Cassie as a maven of precision?
Chapter 8: How can AI be a multiplier of human intent?
Yay or nay?
Yes.
Yeah, amazing. OK, so Cassie, from that place, just a little bit about you. You know, how do you end up in the world that you're in? You know, what's growing up like and who are you and sort of your your life up to until your professional career?
We want to go far back. Yeah. OK, well, when I was about eight or nine years old, I discovered the most beautiful thing in the universe, which I'm sure you all know what that is. Spreadsheets. All right, it was gorgeous. And so while the other kids were playing outside and they were climbing their trees, I had this gemstone collection.
And the entire purpose of this collection was every time I got another gemstone, there was another row from my spreadsheet. What color is it? How hard is it? What is it called? A sort of obsessiveness. I loved data from a very early age. At about 11 years old, I had graduated to my next love, which was databases. I was playing with Microsoft Access.
What was your household like that created this possibility?
My father is from Moldova. My parents are both Soviet physicists, as one does, absolutely normal South African household, two Soviet physicists and their strange kid who likes spreadsheets. And I'm not sure actually that they particularly encouraged this strangeness. They were like... read some, you know, fantasy books and go play outside. And I'm like, but no. The computer compels me.
I went to college when I was 15. Wow. To Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University, as it was called then. Now it's just Nelson Mandela University. They realized that there was a better way to name that. And I had actually, growing up where I did, I didn't realize how big the world was, maybe because I was too set in my spreadsheets.
By this time, you can imagine, 15 or so, I'm now collecting data because it's beautiful, folks, it's beautiful. I'm collecting data on all kinds of biometric things about myself, how much I slept and who did I talk to today and what did I study. I've got data going back really far, which just tells you I really was quite a weird kid.
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