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What I survived

Getting Jnr Home - P8

09 Jun 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What led to Evaristo Salas Jr.'s wrongful conviction?

0.031 - 4.175 Michael Leonard

Every issue that leads to a wrongful conviction is present in this case.

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10.981 - 35.442 Jack Lawrence

Hello and welcome back to One Minute Remaining. My name is Jack Lawrence, the host and creator of this show. We just wrapped up the incredible story of Evaristo Salas Jr., the man now in his 40s convicted of murder at just 15, a crime he has always maintained he's innocent of. Of course, if you are yet to hear this story, time to hit that pause button, head on back and catch up.

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36.343 - 57.105 Jack Lawrence

As I'm sure you're aware, I am in no way an expert when it comes to the law in any country, let alone one I don't live in. I am merely a man producing a show from his children's toy room, which is why after each one of these cases, we sit down and discuss them with the man they call the voice of reason.

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57.406 - 78.503 Jack Lawrence

Michael Leonard is a defence attorney with decades of trial experience and a practising defence attorney from Leonard Trial Lawyers in Chicago, Illinois. So it's time to get Michael's opinion on the case of Evaristo Salas Jr. Here he is.

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78.905 - 79.726 Michael Leonard

Hey, Jack.

79.746 - 80.387 Jack Lawrence

How are you, sir?

80.948 - 97.396 Michael Leonard

Well, I need to talk to you about something. I think, you know, we'd have a discussion about your physical conditioning, you know, because you ran that one point two miles or so. You seem pretty out of breath, my friend. So maybe one of your patrons can suggest a sprint program or something for you.

97.877 - 97.977

Yeah.

98.395 - 108.175 Jack Lawrence

Come on now, mate. Come on. I'm putting my body on the line for this show. You're just lucky I don't say, right, your turn now, Mr. Leonard. You're the attorney. I want to see what you would do for your client.

Chapter 2: How does eyewitness testimony impact wrongful convictions?

628.253 - 643.835 Unknown

Didn't even mention it. Didn't even hear about it. Didn't know nothing about it. That she went in there and cleaned the truck out and all that kind of stuff. That came later. And so it's like, had the jury heard that, that would have made a difference. Because then it would have been like, well, she did all these things. She was a suspect. And then she lied.

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643.875 - 658.359 Unknown

Even said right there that she's lying. She's making stories, all these kind of things. Then the image of her just being this, you know, the victim and everything. And just, you know, seeing things. That would have changed. Because now... you have her doing these things that don't make sense for a person to do.

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658.399 - 687.437 Michael Leonard

And this was Such a close case to begin with. It sounded like the jury struggled mightily. And of course, if they knew any of these things, it would have had a huge impact on their deliberations, which, again, points to the fact that when you appeal a case or ask a court to revisit it based upon newly discovered evidence. That's what they want to hear.

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687.498 - 708.071 Michael Leonard

They want to hear, is it possible or is it probable or is it likely that if the jury had known about this evidence, it could have materially impacted their decision? In this case, of course, that fact alone could have materially impacted the jury's decision. It would have. bombed her credibility, particularly on top of hypnosis. She would have absolutely no credibility.

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708.132 - 725.942 Jack Lawrence

Two of the jury members who have been interviewed post this conviction and have obviously found out this information, both of them have said that this would have completely changed their opinion. And they've said it took seven attempts to come to a final decision. on guilty or not guilty.

726.243 - 752.592 Jack Lawrence

Seven attempts for them to all come to the same realisation and one of the jurors said that he initially voted not guilty but he said eventually he came back to her testimony and he just looked at her, obviously it's this now widow who's got a child that she's going to have to raise by herself and looked at her and said, you know what, she was so adamant, so adamant about this, it was this young man that committed it and that's basically the only thing that really...

752.572 - 773.675 Michael Leonard

swayed him the other way if the hypnosis issue had been even disclosed to the court okay she probably doesn't even testify so think of the gargantuan effect that would have had oh huge but you know the second issue which is strange though when a reviewing court is considering you know whether They could have changed the outcome.

773.815 - 794.469 Michael Leonard

They're not even, they wouldn't even allow juror testimony like that, but it's just a reasonable standard, right? You know, what would reasonably expected to influence or affect the outcome of case. And there's no doubt either of those facts would have the hypnosis and then the identification. the absconding with the truck and wiping away the evidence.

794.509 - 817.448 Michael Leonard

I mean, it's like one of those cases you just don't know where to begin, and it's so sad. You said it yourself in one of the episodes. If it wasn't so sad, it'd be laughable, because it really is. I mean, you couldn't create a case with more holes If you fed this to a bunch of law students and had them dissect it, it would be kind of a hallmark of every problem we have in our system.

Chapter 3: What role does hypnosis play in witness reliability?

1824.893 - 1826.355 Michael Leonard

But It's just a great story.

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1826.695 - 1841.949 Jack Lawrence

Actually, it's amazing, actually. You say Hamish is from New Zealand. There's a very, very good podcast called Who the Hell is Hamish? about a guy from New Zealand who was a scam artist who called himself Hamish. So just be careful, Mr. Leonard.

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1841.969 - 1844.751 Michael Leonard

Did he relocate to River Forest, Illinois?

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1844.771 - 1847.113 Jack Lawrence

I don't know. Possibly. I mean, he did disappear.

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1847.334 - 1851.417 Michael Leonard

Jack, we're spawning so many new podcasts. We better stop.

1851.617 - 1854.58 Jack Lawrence

Yes. Well, I mean, those Kiwis, mate. Watch them. Watch them.

1854.796 - 1858.384 Michael Leonard

He's going to be tuned into your next show.

1858.544 - 1874.779 Jack Lawrence

Oh, good, good. I appreciate it, man. I need all the listeners I can get. So spread the word. Look, as always, Mr. Leonard, I truly appreciate your time and insights on this particular case. And look, I would like to say that I'll bring you one that you can disagree with me on, but that's not the plan. The plan is from here on forward is to...

1874.759 - 1879.605 Michael Leonard

Yeah, you're doing a great job. And I would just recommend maybe a two-mile run a couple of times a week.

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