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What The Duck?!

Sex is Weird 5: Why does it feel good, anyway?

05 Jun 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What role does pleasure play in successful reproduction?

0.031 - 28.943 Unknown

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more. When was the last time you really looked at your kettle, your umbrella, the hallway mirror or even a gravestone? Every one of them was designed by someone for a reason and those choices are still shaping how you live. The ordinary isn't ordinary at all. That's By Design with me, Anthony Burke.

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29.464 - 32.991 Unknown

Find it on the ABC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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36.329 - 55.912 Dr Ann Jones

There are some things that will always be out there as urban myths and extensive Reddit AMAs, like the guy's got two penises. But one-off humans are nothing compared to the absolute batshit racy antics of nature when it comes to sex.

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57.274 - 61.799 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

Scorpions don't have a penis, right? They have something called a spermatophore. It's detachable.

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62.26 - 62.32

No!

62.587 - 68.916 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

Basically, they dropped it on the ground, and then in that male-female dance that scorpions do, they pull the female over it.

69.136 - 87.934 Dr Ann Jones

Wait, wait. The scorpions dance. The scorpions will touch claws and edge backwards and forwards. The sexual tension is palpable. He caresses her mouthparts. This is Bruno Alves Bussato.

88.614 - 103.449 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

And it gets more interesting than that, Anne, because males often sting the females during that. No. It's called sexual sting in the venom gland of males. Quite likely that it also produces chemicals that help the male's interest.

103.469 - 106.432 Dr Ann Jones

Holy moly, I'd never heard of that before.

Chapter 2: How is female pleasure selected for in the animal kingdom?

171.39 - 201.244 Dr Ann Jones

It's all so complicated and time consuming. There must be an answer that drives us beyond this idealised need to reproduce. And today we're going there. Pleasure. romance using vibrators on livestock. We're going to look at some sex acts and some bits of sex acts in slightly uncomfortable detail so that we can try and find out what role does pleasure play in sex and reproduction?

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202.325 - 207.049 Dr Ann Jones

And that is what brings me to a dairy farm at five in the morning in winter near Ballarat.

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207.569 - 213.975 Lynette Greenwood

I'm Lynette Greenwood. I'm a dairy farmer, just a plain dairy farmer from Learmonth. I milk 600 cows.

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213.955 - 221.643 Dr Ann Jones

Lynette Greenwood is no-nonsense, welcoming, but not cloying. And she has a little Jack Russell sitting under her feet in the dairy office.

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222.284 - 232.635 Lynette Greenwood

You're in the command station, aren't you? The reason I do it from in here, well, it's warm, I've got my cup of tea, but I'm reading the patches on their tail. On their tail? On the top of their tail.

232.995 - 234.537 Dr Ann Jones

Oh, that thing that was right at the very top?

234.557 - 235.638 Lynette Greenwood

Yeah, right at the very top.

235.658 - 241.144 Dr Ann Jones

I thought it looked like you'd put reflectors on them so cars... That's what it looks a bit like, yeah.

241.445 - 243.749 Lynette Greenwood

You can see on that one there, she's got a bright green one.

Chapter 3: What unique mating behaviors do scorpions exhibit?

311.819 - 325.536 Dr Ann Jones

All these lactating females who are mounting one another and rubbing scratchies? Well, because I've come to witness conception for myself. And also because I really wanted to see what Lynette thinks about some research I found.

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326.984 - 345.398 Dr Ann Jones

Back in the 1970s, a group of scientists from the US Department of Agriculture did some testing on whether you got better rates of conception from artificial insemination if they stimulated the clitoris of the female cow. Now I've just got to work up the courage to ask Lynette about it.

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347.605 - 367.457 Dr Ann Jones

From a biological standpoint of the drive to reproduce, making sex fun and pleasurable is a sensible thing to do, right? Because it means that the individual will want to have more sex. But what can we tell about how much fun it is for anyone else apart from ourselves?

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368.258 - 374.608 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

So when he catches up to her, then typically there begins a courtship process where he would rub...

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374.926 - 376.728 Dr Ann Jones

What does he rub? Is this going to get too spicy?

376.848 - 377.248 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

Her back.

377.369 - 379.571 Dr Ann Jones

They start with a back rub. Bring it on.

379.631 - 382.354 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

That's one of their flirtation behaviors.

382.834 - 395.687 Dr Ann Jones

Andrew Durso is a herpetologist who has run a blog for years called Life is Short, but Snakes are Long. And if someone would know good sex, you'd think it would be snakes. They've got two penises.

Chapter 4: What insights can we gain from dairy farming practices?

490.739 - 512.95 Dr Ann Jones

But we can't ignore the fact that to match the two penises that the male snakes have is a little pleasure suite of two clitorises on the female, complete with amazing bundles of nerves and erectile tissues. Which leads us to the big question, which is, what role does pleasure actually play in sex in reproduction?

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512.93 - 516.294 Associate Professor Patty Brennan

It's a huge part of the equation that we don't really talk about all that much.

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516.635 - 525.446 Dr Ann Jones

Patricia Brennan from Mount Holyoke College, a doyen of anatomical genital research, having spent most of her career now carving up sexual anatomy.

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526.006 - 536.98 Associate Professor Patty Brennan

There is just so much looking at vaginas that you can do without starting to encounter all these clitorises. And so in the end, I just had to start doing clitorises because I was like, we don't know anything about them.

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539.002 - 546.273 Lucy Cooke

For a long time, it was argued that basically we had males to thank for our orgasms.

546.293 - 554.365 Dr Ann Jones

Lucy Cook is author of Bitch, the revolutionary guide to sex, evolution and the female animal. Excellent book. Highly recommend.

554.725 - 567.945 Lucy Cooke

Basically, the only reason females had any sexual pleasure was because in development, we have a shared genital blueprint. Female pleasure was completely anomalous. It didn't have a function, which is just...

568.448 - 598.386 Dr Ann Jones

Nuts. Lucy. But in more recent times, female pleasure has started to become recognised, in no small part due to the fact that there are now more female scientists. For example, Susanna Chevalier-Skolkinov included her artist's impression of a macaque female's orgasm face in her research. And Jane Goodall noted that female chimpanzees rub their genitals and laughed softly to themselves.

599.007 - 607.28 Dr Ann Jones

And then there's Patty Brennan, who studies vertebrates, that's animals with spines, and she says... All females have clitorises, OK?

Chapter 5: How does clitoral stimulation influence conception rates in livestock?

694.658 - 712.75 Associate Professor Patty Brennan

And in some ways it has been eliminated from the discourse because females can get pregnant without having an orgasm. And that's the case in humans, for example. And so I think that that in some ways called into question how important clitoral stimulation might be for females during sex.

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712.831 - 721.372 Dr Ann Jones

Right. As a species, we do find it hard to shake off our own experience in the quest to understand others. But what do we know?

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721.392 - 738.269 Associate Professor Patty Brennan

We know that clitoral stimulation does a ton of stuff in the reproductive system of females. So it induces mucus production. Mucous production is super important to prevent mechanical damage to the vaginal wall. Without lubrication, the female gets hurt.

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738.289 - 741.695 Dr Ann Jones

The clitoris can be a button to release the lube.

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742.336 - 757.353 Associate Professor Patty Brennan

We also know that clitoral stimulation stimulates the immune cascade in the female because copulation can potentially cause some harm. And because penises are dirty, the female wants to have her immune system activated.

757.394 - 763.44 Dr Ann Jones

She wants to call in the troops and the way to do it is to sound the saxophone of pleasure.

765.081 - 776.233 Associate Professor Patty Brennan

Clitoral stimulation can cause contractions of the female reproductive tract. Particularly if there is orgasm, the whole reproductive tract will contract and that can foster sperm transport.

776.517 - 807.667 Dr Ann Jones

This is sometimes referred to as the upsuck hypothesis that does what it says on the tin. Clitoral stimulation could also play a role in ovulation. Some species only ovulate after sexual intercourse, so the body might need a big message to do it, like fireworks on the beach type orgasms. Or it might also play a role in readying the sperm storage apparatus. Preheating the pie warmer, if you will.

808.028 - 814.777 Associate Professor Patty Brennan

So why have we neglected this area of research for so long is really baffling to me.

Chapter 6: What evolutionary advantages does female pleasure provide?

879.809 - 889.528 Lynette Greenwood

I've got spots all over it. Well, I couldn't work it out why there was all spots. I thought it was fly shit. And it was me cutting the end off the straw. It's semen.

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891.171 - 919.156 Dr Ann Jones

These are the dangers of AI, artificial insemination. You might end up with creme de cacao all over your new TV. Lynette strides over to the carousel of cows and without even stopping the movement, she has a hand in an anus and the gun in the vulva. The hand in the digestive system guides the equipment through the internals of the cow and $50 worth of bull semen is on its way to being a calf.

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920.218 - 924.147 Dr Ann Jones

Maybe. So you said that you had pregnancy tested her.

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924.187 - 930.799 Lynette Greenwood

How do you do that? I put my arm in the rectum and feel through the rectum wall for the... You feel the uterus, basically.

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930.939 - 937.951 Dr Ann Jones

Because I was thinking getting her to pee in a cup is going to be very difficult, you know. There's a lot of rectum action in this, though, isn't there? Yes, there is. A bit more than I expected, to be honest.

938.993 - 942.459 Lynette Greenwood

It's a great job on a frosty day, I tell you. I have one nice warm hand.

943.541 - 943.701

LAUGHTER

944.525 - 962.794 Dr Ann Jones

They say warm hands, warm heart. But am I going to get a warm kick up the rear end out the door if I ask her if she's ever considered using a vibrator on a cow? Studies have been ongoing since the 1970s into clitorally stimulating livestock during artificial insemination.

963.195 - 980.235 Dr Ann Jones

In a 2019 study, the clitoral stimulation post-insemination lasted two to five seconds, which might I say is hardly enough for a lady to relax. And also, how annoyed would you be if you were one of the cows in the control group who didn't get stimulated?

Chapter 7: How do different species ensure successful fertilization?

1079.097 - 1089.838 Emeritus Professor Susan Suarez

Same thing with the mouse, the sperm really go directly into the uterus and don't have to pass through the cervix. So where you deliver the sperm can be really, really different.

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1090.055 - 1113.531 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

There is what we call traumatic insemination, which is not only the penis is spiking and hurts the female in the process of anchoring and trying to transfer as much sperm as possible, but the penises sometimes have structures that will allow the male to pierce the female and inject sperm sometimes outside the reproductive tract. Bed bugs are a good example of that.

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1114.574 - 1136.216 Dr Ann Jones

Yes, bedbug males approach a female and the males will get out their modified paramere, a penis-like structure. It looks like a flower petal that has been curled up into the shape of a sword. And they use that sword to stab into her body cavity and deliver the sperm in there. I bet you have questions. So here are some answers.

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1136.977 - 1157.548 Dr Ann Jones

Yes, the sperm can still find its way to the right bit of the female for conception. Yes, she does have a genital tract, but it's used for egg laying and not conception. Yes, she doesn't seem to want to mate again after that. Yes, it does shorten her lifespan. And yes, it's last sperm in precedence.

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1157.568 - 1185.967 Dr Ann Jones

So that means the freshest sperm is likely to be the bit that fertilises her, which is probably a driver for males continuing to stab the side of her body and remate over and over again. See? I told you. Sex is weird. And riddle me this. Why is it that, as far as I know, every species that science has tested so far, there is a percentage of the little guys, the sperm, that are infertile?

1186.007 - 1201.983 Dr Ann Jones

They're just not up to the job. And we're not just talking one or two. We're talking hundreds of thousands of sperm each ejaculation. Enter sperm sociability. You ask, what sort of friendship, what sort of mortal enemies are sperm making?

1203.385 - 1230.541 Dr Ann Jones

Well, take the great diving beetle, Disticus marginalis, whose sperm each has one flat face and it enables them to pair up together flat faces and motor along with two tails propelling. The Norway rat sperm has hook-shaped heads, so they can group together like those dangling monkey toys, sort of, into mounds of hundreds, and they see their way forward through the female.

1231.242 - 1257.816 Dr Ann Jones

The wood mouse sperm hooks one sperm to another and forms a sperm train. It's truly beautiful. And is it altruistic? Is this like the teams of riders that lead the whole Tour de France stage only for some dude who is right in the middle of the pack to appear and blammo fertilise the egg like he did all the work himself?

1257.836 - 1266.385 Dr Ann Jones

I always thought of sperm as these henchmen sorts acting without reference to society and only on their own needs and desires.

Chapter 8: What are the implications of sperm sociability in reproduction?

1306.446 - 1331.72 Emeritus Professor Susan Suarez

The first sperm to arrive at the cumulus cloud would fertilise the nearest egg inside. The second sperm would come in and bypass the nearest egg and go to the second nearest egg and fertilise that. And the third sperm would go to the third egg. Now, how did they know that the first egg was already fertilised and they shouldn't waste their time? That's a big mystery.

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1332.221 - 1343.335 Dr Ann Jones

There's at least one message from the egg that's like, come here, and another that says, go round, go round. These mouse-over literally have better communication than some of my exes.

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1344.226 - 1350.695 Emeritus Professor Susan Suarez

saying there's a lot more signalling going on between the male and the female than we've ever dreamed of.

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1351.095 - 1370.942 Dr Ann Jones

So how does this tally up against the whole sexual conflict, every mouse for themselves thing, when there's elements of teamwork in reproduction? Is the battle of the sexes even a thing? Or is everyone working towards the survival of the species together?

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1371.783 - 1383.719 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

So if you have males doing what's best for everybody and females doing what's best for everybody here so that we have more offspring in the next generation, that's just this awesome opportunity for someone to come in there and cheat.

1384.2 - 1388.065 Dr Ann Jones

Oh, it's like the failure of the socialist state, isn't it?

1388.085 - 1388.786 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

100%.

1389.748 - 1393.673 Dr Ann Jones

Selfishness overcomes altruism at every turn.

1394.851 - 1405.242 Associate Professor Andrew Durso

When we look at high competition for matings in sexual selection, it's going to be a very selfish game and the strategies were going to be very selfish in there usually.

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