Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
There is a difference between knowingly lying and being mistaken. I don't think Zach Butters knowingly lied, but there is a chance he got it wrong, just as there is a chance that Nick Foote got it wrong. At the centre of all this are two players who believe they've been hard done by. The CEO of the Players Association is James Gallagher, and he's with me this morning in the studio.
James, good to see you. Good to see you, Tom. Timing is everything. A strongly worded statement this morning. Did the tribunal get it wrong with Zach Butters?
I think, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're, we're really disappointed with the outcome. Um, there's no doubt about that. Um, I think it would seem pretty clear that there's been a misunderstanding here.
Um, I know I certainly have misheard many things in my life, but I think, um, it w it was pretty clear when watching the footy on Sunday night, you know, there was, um, Zach and Ollie were obviously mystified at why a 50 meter penalty had been paid. Um, Zach obviously didn't interview immediately post-game.
He didn't know at that point in time what the allegations were and he was pretty clear about, you know, what he'd said. And then Zach and Ollie obviously gave that evidence again last night. And I hear the point that there was some slight discrepancies, but... These guys are playing a highly competitive game of football.
And when it's, when it's come out of Zach's mouth, he's not thinking anything of it because he knows he hasn't done anything wrong. So I think for a tribunal to find, to be, to be confident enough to find that all All of those things don't point to the fact that the words weren't said. Yeah, really disappointed.
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Chapter 2: What was the outcome of the Zach Butters tribunal decision?
Have you spoken to Zach?
Yeah, I have.
What did he say?
Look, we just had a good chat and I think, you know, consistent with he made a very short statement, but he's really disappointed. And I think, unfortunately, you know, the weight of evidence, which was in his favour, doesn't seem to have carried the day here. And, you know, that's concerning.
Is he worried that he's been branded a liar?
I think anytime a person gives evidence and it's not accepted, that sort of cuts quite deeply. You know, I know Zach well enough. I know Ollie well. You know, these are guys that are, you know, really highly revered, true to their word. I don't think anyone's ever doubted that and for the first time that's happened and I don't think that's a good thing for all of us.
What about the role between umpires and players? Do you think it's been unhealthy this last 48 to 72 hours?
I don't think it's helped, but I actually don't think this is necessarily about players being umpires. I don't know Nick Foote. I have no reason to doubt that, you know, what he said he thought he heard is what he thought he heard. He was focusing on umpiring the game. Zach and Ollie were focusing on playing it. It's entirely understandable that that might be misheard.
I think there's no doubt in my mind that that's what happened. And... those two things can be the case. And the tribunal should have been able to say, you know what, we actually believe both of you. But that doesn't get us to a point of understanding and being confident enough to uphold a charge. I think ideally... what we should say is good dialogue between players and umpires.
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Chapter 3: How does the AFL Players Association view the role of umpires?
And they're up for it. But when we have incidents like this, they second guess it. And that's not good for any of us. And it's certainly not good for the AFL as well. And that's a conversation we'll definitely be having in coming days.
Yeah. So what does a competition look like where the players lose confidence in the media and the reporting around delicate incidents and then lose confidence in the tribunal and MRO process?
Well, it's not one that's really built for success, right? And so I think it's incumbent upon all of us to make sure that we get through those challenges. And generally, the relationship between the players and the media, the players and the game has been fantastic. We've got an issue here that we need to work through and resolve.
I've got no doubt there is a solution that we can all work towards, but there's got to be an appetite to do it.
Do you call Andrew Dillon today and make these thoughts known to him in a more casual, maybe personable way?
We talk regularly, whether that's today. I think I'm seeing him tomorrow. So yeah, but yeah, and we'll certainly have conversation about it. And I think these are not necessarily thoughts that haven't come up in our discussions previously. I think we've just seen them play out in the last 24 hours or so.
You've got a legal background. Is your advice to Zach Butters and Port Adelaide to appeal?
I'm trying desperately to continually take the legal hat off. Oh, look, they'll consider it. It's hard without having seen the reasons and our team and, Our legal team, I spoke to both Zach and Matthew Richardson last night and I made it really clear that they're going to have great legal support. But if there's anything our team can do to help them, we will.
And I expect our guys will have a look at the reasons today and form some thoughts. And if they've got some ideas about a way to run appeal, we'll certainly play that role.
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Chapter 4: What are the concerns about the tribunal process and player confidence?
Because that was mentioned in the tribunal notes that this could be career ending was the quote if the punishment or the sanction is too long.
Any significant time out of the game presents a challenge for players, and we say that all the time, whether that be suspension injury or otherwise. St Kilda have provided great support to Lance, and I think that needs to be acknowledged.
That gives me a lot of confidence that when he's ready, he'll come back to that football club, he'll have a lot of support around him, and that'll give him the best chance to move through this incident successfully. out the other side and, you know, and hopefully return to footy.
Should the AFL adopt a framework that's consistent across various off-field misdemeanors? I know you touched on it before and I know this was part of the negotiations and written and agreed to in 2023 and it hasn't come forth yet.
I think we've got a bit of work to do and we've talked about a lot this morning. The listeners have heard lots about process this morning. I think we've got a lot of work to do to set up really bespoke processes that should lead us to the outcome. I think having some clarity about what those outcomes might look like is helpful for the game. I think we saw that through COVID-19.
That when there was really clear parameters around player behaviour, but also the consequence of behaviour, I think that was really helpful for the game. It meant that we were able to get through issues and incidents quickly with clarity for everyone involved and people had signed up before. the issue was upon us. I think there's a benefit to that.
And that's something where we're committed to continuing working through the AFL. And, um, you know, I'd like to think we can find a way through that, but I don't think you can have necessarily something that's so prescriptive as, you know, this equals X, but I think having an understanding of, um, of the parameters you're working in, it would be really helpful for everyone.
The AFL made the argument in the case against Lance Collard that because he had delivered a homophobic slur before, he was more likely to have done it this time. Do you think that was a fair argument?
That's a good question. I think the evidence, as I understand it, was very much that he'd gone through an education process. He understood the mistake of his ways. Yeah. I mean, you could argue that the word has been in his vocabulary at some point in the past. You could equally argue that he more than most should deeply know the impact of it, given what he's gone through.
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