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Chapter 1: Who is the greatest Collingwood player of all time?
It's heavily Collingwood flavoured though. It's entirely Collingwood flavoured. A whole confluence of events, which included Anzac Day, which included Bluch telling us yesterday, just reminding us of the great deeds of Gordon Coventry. Know your history topic today. Who is the greatest magpie of all?
Chapter 2: What historical events influenced Collingwood's legacy?
brilliantly done side bottom Lipinski Cameron here's 42 career best equaling and it's a beauty too as he drops it on a dime for McStay Scott Pendlebury if he had a bat he'd raise it right now it's unbelievable I think you should rest him now let him get the paper get the 50 yeah it's an indictment on Essendon but let's enjoy for what it is his career I wonder if he'll go around again Andy why wouldn't you
One goal, three. McStay's hit the post twice. Pendles is the chant around the ground and McStay finally puts up his second.
The Pendles chant at the MCG is a taster of what's to come in the weeks ahead. Shannon Gill's our professional of history.
Hello, Shannon. G'day, Gerard. And yes, hand on heart can say we didn't plan this around Collingwood membership day. This one's been sitting there and I think the confusion over when he's going to play, we do actually plan. I do need some planning time. Hence why we've dropped it this week, a couple of weeks ahead of the actual event. But after Anzac Day, I was there on Anzac Day and I,
There's a lot of neutrals there on Anzac Day as well, I think. They were all barracking for the Pendle's medal, weren't they? They were. I don't think I've ever... heard an ovation like that for an individual award at the MCG, maybe ever. I don't even think grand final Norm Smith medals get that.
Because there's a whole lot going on.
Yeah, there's lots going on.
Yeah.
And by the end, like we all knew, well, very early, the result of that game.
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Chapter 3: How does Scott Pendlebury's career compare to Collingwood legends?
They spend 32 years without a flag, making grand finals, losing grand finals, eight grand finals that they're in one, they draw seven. They, they lose many by, um, Little small margins, lots of great players during this period, but they don't win then win one. And there's not one single player who sort of elevates above everyone else.
Particularly in the late 70s and early 80s, their grand final losses, that team is sort of known really as a team of battlers that played above themselves to get there. So they don't have those figures that stand above everyone else. So that plays into this.
Yep. And then there's some quirks of history in this as well. I'll keep you up to speed on what's coming on the team, which illustrates the point, but go on.
So the quirks of history is that a lot of Collingwood's greatest players, their best players, their most brilliant players have had unusually short careers. And you sort of have to factor in the shortness of career, particularly in the context of Scott Pendlebury, which is the longest career of all. Yes. So Ron Todd was a prodigious goal kicker for Collingwood.
But he crosses to the VFA at age 24 and never plays for Collingwood again. There's Fothergill who wins a Brownlow at 20. He crosses to the VFA at 21. Then there's the war. He only plays 39 more games when he goes back to Collingwood later on. So he's a guy that could have been that guy, but he's not.
Bob Rose, who is often termed the greatest magpie of all time, he only plays 150 games in 10 years. Wins four best and fairest in that time. But at 27, he leaves to go and captain coach the Wangaratta Rovers. and open a sports store in Wangaratta primarily.
So he's getting paid good money to go and coach the Wangaratta Rovers, probably more than he was getting in Collingwood, probably a lot more than he was getting in Collingwood. And he had a business opportunity there. So even he, who is termed, many term, the greatest, has this unusually short career.
Peter McKenna plays 180 games, kicks over 800 goals, but plays his last game for Collingwood at age 28. There's Phil Carman and John Greening, which are completely different scenarios in themselves. Carman has one magical season when he crosses to Collingwood from South Australia. Lou Richards calls him the best magpie ever at that time. He is playing better than any magpie ever.
He's a bit of a one-season wonder. He never hits those heights again. He moves on. John Greening, another completely different story. He's on a trajectory to be great, suffers a horrible injury in an ugly off-the-ball incident, barely plays again after that point.
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Chapter 4: What factors make it difficult to determine the greatest player?
Ed Hawthorne, Lee Matthews is indisputably the statistically best player through everything he did. And therefore he is seen as the greatest player at Hawthorne. The iconic player. This is the player that represents the club best, embodies the club best. It might be the best player in their best era. And I look at like a Carey or a Barassi, tends to be that.
Or someone that has a deeper embodiment of the club, like a Ted Witten or the guy that flew the flag when things were tough, like a Kevin Murray at Fitzroy, who is iconic for that. And then there is the most loved player. And this is aside from stats and success, who had the greatest effect on fans?
And I think there's a few in this list of Collingwood that might not be the statistically best, but are the most loved and pushes them into it. So sometimes you can be all three. Bob Skilton is an example of all three. You know, statistically great, won three Brown Lows, but...
Um, he's iconic because he's, he's, he was a figure that, that comes to the fore in it, in the television era, but is around past that when they get to Sydney. And then most loved because he was the guy that stuck with the Swans when they were terrible. So there's a, there's those sort of things that fall into it. So working backwards on that most loved.
Peter McKenna and Peter Dacos, I think, are the most loved Collingwood players ever. Peter McKenna was just... It's hard to imagine how big Peter McKenna must have been in the late 60s or 70s. There is an argument that no one has been idolised in football like Peter McKenna was. So Dacos is absolutely loved.
And I think Peter Dacos is loved by other team supporters as well because of the things he could do on the field, which were different. We spent half an hour talking about Peter Dacos.
This is where Pendlebury is coming with a bullet. Yes. And why Anzac Day was so important and why 95,000 in round 11 for the day is going to have such a place in Collingwood history.
Yes. Yeah, he has to be top five most loved. And I think in maybe 10 years, he might only be behind McKenna and Dacos or in that mix. Iconic? I mean, Lou Richards might be the iconic Collingwood person of all time, but he's not... termed as the greatest player of all time. Gordon Coventry's iconic because of the goals and the games.
In modern times, I think the Dacos name might be the most iconic because you're going to have the family carrying that on. But I'll also say that Pendlebury is iconic too. He... So he's Collingwood for 20 years and he's been Collingwood for 20 years when they've been very, very good. Two flags, two losing grand finals, 14 final series.
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Chapter 5: How do recency and nostalgia biases affect player rankings?
So Pendlebury, two premierships. and influential in those premierships. Norm Smith in the 2010 replay, 25 and a goal in the 23. He did actually get a vote from the Norm Smith panel that year. Widely seen as Collingwood's best player in their 2011 grand final loss. He got 33 touches. Not as prominent in 2018 when they lost, but still got 20 touches.
The story of the first grand final in 2020 is interesting. He had gastro before that, lost six kilos, was very disappointed with his game, still had 19 touches in a grand final. Like it's nothing to sneeze at. So he's done it at that, those times. Uh, and just a run through his all time. Yeah. VFL AFL stats.
Uh,
As of, well, two weeks' time, we think, three weeks' time maybe, most games ever. He's currently most disposals ever. Ninth kicks ever. Most handballs ever. Most tackles ever. Fourth inside 50s ever. I know some of these stats are later stats where we don't have the full history. Third in clearances. Second contested possessions. Most uncontested possessions. Most goals assists. So he is...
He's not just played a lot of games. He's played a lot of quality games and done a lot of things statistically wise. So I think there's a lot there from a statistic point of view.
You've got just a couple of addendums. There's some intangibles as well about this. Hold the intangible. So still... Top 30 average. Yeah. Sorry.
So he is, he's still top 30 average disposals and handballs, despite playing a hundred plus more games than anyone else in the list. So we go from, he's been 33 plus for the last hundred games. When you're either retired or supposed to be winding down. So your average is always going to come down.
And he's played a hundred games of that, but he's still in the top 30 average disposals of handballs.
Alright, you're building your case to bring it to its climax. Shannon Gill making the case on Know Your History that Scott Pendlebury is the greatest magpie. Here's what we've got on the text, Shan. Hi, guys. My father came from Italy and moved to Wangaratta and built Bob Rose's sports shop. He and Bob were very good friends and treated him like a brother.
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Chapter 6: What statistics support Pendlebury's claim to greatness?
There might be a literal or two in that, but I think you get the thread of it. Pendle's pie standing on different evidentiary standards, this appeals to me. Criminal, beyond reasonable doubt, definitely top five. AFL Tribunal, comfortably satisfied, top three. Civil standard, balance of probabilities, number one. I've watched Collingwood since 1948.
I saw Bob Rose kick the winning goal in the 1953 grand final. Neil Mann, the Richards brothers, all great players. Thompson, Tudnum as well, but Pendles is the best. That's from Colin. John Greening has to be mentioned. If he hadn't been knocked out and badly concussed, would have been the best. My grandfather, who was a one-eyed hawk, said Jack Reagan was the best fullback ever.
He couldn't believe Silvani was named in the team as the best fullback. Of the century, John from Beaconsfield. I've been watching the pie since 1970. Without any doubt, the most eye-catching, brilliant, skillful player by a stretch is Peter Dacos. No one comes close. Pendle's definitely the most consistent. Bucks was brilliant. But for sheer magic, Dacos is the one.
Nick will end up probably the best, even if he is not as brilliant as his dad. I'm of generation recency bias, Dacos, Buckley, Picken, McKenna, Pendlebury, Thompson, Price, with a special mention to Carmen and Greening. Greatest pile in Thompson. Discussion of who is the greatest, but it's perfect demonstration of recency bias.
Gordon Coventry is in no one's mind under the age of 50, but his record is amazing. Even in my time, I'd put Dacos above Pendlebury. Peter Dacos, that's from Guy. While Pendlebury has had a far longer career with the extra flag, Dane Swan was a level above for five years during both of their prime. That's from Marcus. Gordon Coventry is the best pie. Ted Whitten is the best dog.
But like with all recency bias, Pendlebury and Bonson-Pelly will be touted as the club's goat. If you haven't done so, I recommend the book Rose Boys written by Peter Rose. Bob Rose would have won a couple of flags as coach with half an ounce of luck. John from Mernda. Sid Coventry, four-time Premiership captain, only to do so. Brownlow and best on field in the 27 grand final.
And there's no doubt it's Bucks. Pendles may have won flags and is silky smooth and has longevity, but there's never been a player that was more invested in the club in every way than Bucks. So that's a great spread there.
It shows how many different answers we've got for greatest pie of all time. This is the point. It's not clear-cut.
Buckley.
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Chapter 7: What intangibles contribute to the perception of greatness in players?
It's a powerful combination.
After that list is done, after he was nominated as the 10th best player at Collingwood ever, that is what he's done. So it's a single career that I think, yeah, you could, you could say top 40, top 25, but he's got two careers added together on this list. which makes it very compelling that he might be the best. Now, I was just having this discussion in the ad break.
Nathan Buckley, I think a top 10 AFL player for 10 years. Don't think Scott Pendlebury was a top 10 AFL player for 10 years, but he's a top four Collingwood player for 20 years. So Nathan Buckley might be a greater AFL player, but is Scott Pendlebury a greater Collingwood player?
This is the part about the recognition that Pendlebury is currently getting and why these weeks are so important. Because if you scour Mike Sheehan's lists, he's not in there. He's not the pointy end, no. And he was never Ablett or Judd or Franklin. But now you look at this whole sequence and own the game's record, most disposals in history and these tent poles along the way in its totality.
And I don't think he was that far behind Ablett, Judd or Franklin. He just played in a, he doesn't play in a style that's quite as ballistic as those three guys. So I don't think he's that far behind those guys. But weight of seasons doing it, we now have this greater appreciation.
So, Professor, bring it to a head for us.
So, I'll put it on the table. In my view, I think Pendles might be number one. But I'm not the Collingwood historian. Michael Roberts is the Collingwood historian. So... I'm going to leave it to him to make that re-judgment. And again, I spoke to him yesterday. So there will be a special edition of the AFL record for the record-breaking game, I'm told, and I hope I have this right.
Collaboration between AFL Record, Collingwood Footy Club and the MCG shop that will be a special edition. And Michael Roberts is writing a feature. And I think he might be re-ranking his Collingwood players 10 years on to decide just where Pendles sits in the scheme of things.
So one Bob Rose, two Nathan Buckley when Lasty did the list 10 years ago. So the question is...
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Chapter 8: Can Pendlebury be considered the greatest Collingwood player ever?
Which we do love. Waitley at sen.com.au.