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Sophia Ruan Gushée is a nontoxic lifestyle expert and author of A to Z of D-Toxing: The Ultimate Guide to Reducing Our Toxic Exposures and several detox workbooks. She is praised by experts in both medical and wellness fields for her practical approach to avoiding toxins and cultivating a healthier home environment. Sophia served on the Brown University School of Public Health Advisory Council and Well + Good Council. A graduate of Brown University and Columbia Business School, Sophia has helped thousands of people enjoy healthier lives by simplifying nontoxic living, while protecting the ease and convenience of modern life. https://www.ruanliving.com/nontoxic-cleaning-guide-may Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter) - Instagram: @ruanliving, https://www.instagram.com/ruanliving/ - Facebook: Ruan Living, https://www.facebook.com/ruanliving - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/srgushee/ - TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ruanliving For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle (00:01) Welcome to the podcast, Sophia. Sophia Gushee (00:03) Thank you for having me. Michelle (00:05) It's a pleasure to have you and to talk about something that I feel is so important. It's definitely like an uphill battle. I think that a lot of people are facing, but can be done in a easier way and approached in easier way. And I'm really happy to have you on to talk about this important topic. But before we get started, I would love for you to introduce yourself and give us a background and what got you into the work that you're doing. Sophia Gushee (00:34) I'd be happy to. I never could have imagined that I would be focused on simplifying non -toxic living. I grew up in upstate New York, always interested in eating healthy. I grew up in a tennis loving family. I exercised a lot since I was really young. And yet I always felt poor energy, felt really bad. And since... People always said to me, you're the healthiest person I know. And I felt really bad. I just thought something was wrong with me. I ended up after graduating from college, working on Wall Street for about 10 years in distressed investing. So I would focus on high risk, high return investments with imperfect information. And my job was to figure out. what are the value creation strategies we can execute to create the most value? And when I became a mom at age 34, I started accidentally learning about toxic chemicals, heavy metals, and radiation from what I was buying for my infant. And since I never heard about this before, my like, highly respected physicians never put it on my radar. My reaction ended up being very similar to what I did professionally with distress investing. I had to figure out are there credible sources to back up what I'm reading? What are the good facts? Why do the physicians not know about this? And what's a reasonable level of concern? always I ended up finding enough information that made me want to make a healthier choice. And I ended up developing a platform and a lifestyle to simplify how to make safer choices with shopping and simple things you do at home. So Ruan Living is based on the easy things you can do to reduce your toxic exposures. I ended up spending about eight years sharing the science that I learned about that I wish I knew sooner in a book that was published in 2015 and that's called A to Z of Detoxing, The Ultimate Guide to Reducing Our Toxic Exposures. But since I never wanted to read a book about this, I just wanted an informed mom to tell me what I should know and what I could do in as little time as possible. And I never found that resource. I've been building offerings to serve that desire of my younger self because learning how to not buy toxic exposures to bring into your home should not be as hard as it's been. Michelle (03:40) Oh my God, when you said simplify, I'm like, yes, that is exactly what we need because I find, and I found this when I first started working with fertility and of course learned about what the impacts were from these endocrine disruptors and the toxins that were exposed to from the chemicals that are in our products to our like healthcare and not healthcare them. I mean, the clean products in our, not clean products, I don't know why I'm getting, I'll delete this part. Cleaning products in our house, you know, there's so many different ways that it sneaks in, but it also in receipts, you know, things that you would never even consider. And then also pesticides and I mean, you can just like, you can keep going and EMFs too. That's another, that's a whole other topic. Sophia Gushee (04:15) cleaning products. Michelle (04:36) But yeah, we're exposed to a lot of things that we're not supposed to be exposed to. And when I first learned about this, I remember myself feeling overwhelmed, but then also being afraid to overwhelm my patients and my clients, because it can be really overwhelming to hear about. First of all, it makes you feel bad and then worried like, well, what happened up until this point? You know what I mean? I've been doing all these things and not realizing that I'm harming my body. But secondly, how does one get started? You know, that it feels like such an uphill battle and it feels like it's so overwhelming. I think that that was one of the things that I always struggled with in explaining things to my patients. Sophia Gushee (05:21) It's hard. Not everyone wants to know. And so I don't push it on people. But for those who are curious, I want them to know what I have to offer so that they can learn to modify things in their lifestyle and their purchases that they don't mind making. And the thing... Michelle (05:25) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (05:49) The main thing is, I forgot to finish a point I started with. Even though I felt really poor energy most of my life, it wasn't until after I started detoxing my home and detoxing my diet and other things to reduce my toxic exposures that I started to feel better than ever. And this is now during a stage in my life where I don't eat as well as I used to. I don't exercise as much as I used to. I have three kids, so I've been busy with that and working a ton. I don't sleep as well, and yet I feel better than ever. And I really do believe it's the reduced body burden that I undoubtedly now have. And when I look at images of mice who have been exposed to a lot of bisphenol A, a popular hormone disrupting chemical found in many household products like plastics. And I see how obese the mouse is in comparison to the control mouse who was not exposed to BPA. I think that's how I felt like all of high school. So what I encourage people to do is to follow an elimination diet. Pick one thing. one change you don't mind making often cleaning products is a really good start or your food containers or your pots and pans. Most people don't feel an emotional connection to those things and make a small change. And over time, you're going to feel really good about it, whether you feel better or you're just feeling empowered and you'll feel ready for another change. And over time, There are a variety of symptoms that are alleviated for a lot of people, whether it's skin issues or energy or other outcomes. A lot of studies actually show that these toxic exposures are influencing reproductive health and assisted reproductive technology outcomes. So if you're struggling to get pregnant, and you want to do everything you can for the healthiest pregnancy outcome possible, then detoxing your home and the other aspects of your life that you can do at a pace that's comfortable for you will be an invaluable investment for yourself and your offspring and also their offspring. Michelle (08:35) Absolutely. Actually, let's talk about pots and pans because I feel like that's always a confusing subject. What are good ones that you recommend? Sophia Gushee (08:47) I stick to the materials that have been around since before the Industrial Revolution. So cast iron, stainless steel, and glass are the staples in my home. After about 12, 13 years of just those pots and pans, which are black and metal, I went through a period of really missing color. And so I bought a ceramic Michelle (08:58) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (09:17) cast iron skillet thinking at the time based on my research that that was probably safe and then after spending probably about $200, very expensive pan, but it was a very pretty pink. I read that it could have lead in it and so my practical approach is I'm not going to throw it out. I like seeing the color around. I use it sparingly and Acidic foods like tomatoes can wear at the coating of cast iron and stainless steel. So you want to try and not like make tomato sauce in those materials. And so I eventually bought glass cookware. And so the glass is for the tomatoes and other acidic foods. But I also use the... ceramic glazed cast iron sometimes. Michelle (10:19) Got it. But the ceramic glazed cast iron, you were saying sometimes it can have lead. Is that what it is? Sophia Gushee (10:25) Yeah, studies on ceramics and ceramic glazed cookware have found mixed results. Some of them have found lead and probably other toxic chemicals too. It's just, you know, if they were just testing for lead, that's all they're going to find. But if they tested for a longer list of things, I have no doubt they'd find other things. Michelle (10:37) Mm -hmm. God, I wish they just didn't do this in the first place. So it would make our life so much easier. No, that they didn't put these chemicals in there or these like things that are harmful for the human body. Sophia Gushee (10:54) that they don't test. Well, they serve a purpose. I mean, sometimes these toxic exposures or substances are there accidentally, not intentionally. But sometimes lead is often used in many household products to create a desired color, to create weight in costume jewelry and children's jewelry. So if you think about it, this Michelle (11:08) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (11:27) like let's call it fake jewelry is made out of plastic. That's pretty light to make it feel more weighty, like a real, like, I don't know, heavy gold necklace. Heavy metals are used. And when lead has been replaced, it's often been replaced by cadmium, another heavy metal that is also toxic. So I have a 40 -day home detox that really tries to... Michelle (11:49) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (11:55) inform your common sense in this way because it's not really practical or effective to avoid chemical by chemical. I started out when I started learning about this topic, I developed a list of chemicals to avoid. So I'd read product labels to avoid BPA or phthalates or parabens. And then I just realized that substitute chemicals are Michelle (12:07) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (12:24) not always safer, sometimes they're more harmful. So BPA, for example, is a chemical that is used in the inner lining of canned foods and plastics on receipts, as you said earlier. In trying to use a safer formula or less controversial one, manufacturers would replace it with things like BPS or others. and scientists have found that BPS can be even more harmful. And so I ended up, you know, it is, we're now shifting, like governments are shifting towards regulating families of chemicals, which is much more impactful. For example, California is looking to regulate the family of forever chemicals, not just specific ones, like specific forever chemicals, like Michelle (12:56) Oh, wow. Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (13:22) PFOA or PFOS. But I actually in my book, A to Z of Detoxing, identified what I call household repeat offenders. So as you get to know materials or just things like, like I was saying, colors in your home, in like costume jewelry and ceramics, and understand that colors are used. for example, lead and cadmium used to create weight or lead is used to deepen, I think it's red or orange. I specify this in the 40 day home detox program. It just tells your common sense, oh, that's high risk. Most likely there's a heavy metal in there to create that rich deep color or to create weight for plastic. But... Michelle (14:10) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (14:19) I forgot your question. Michelle (14:20) Oh, no. I mean, it's just, it's just, yeah, it's all, it's all important. Like I think it's all important because when it comes to really understanding and kind of navigating through this, it could be very overwhelming. And one of the things is like you were saying, when you're focusing on one ingredient at a time, I mean, who can remember all of those things? That's the reality. Another thing that comes to my mind too, is you would think like, Sophia Gushee (14:23) Pots and pans, lots of hands. Yeah. Michelle (14:48) water or like a sparkling water, I know a lot of them have forever chemicals in them. Sophia Gushee (14:56) Yeah, water is tricky. Bottled water will have lots of micro plastics or nano plastics if it's in a plastic bottle, but even tap water can get contaminated through the pipes and the kitchen fixtures. So I think it's really worth investing in a water filter that is comfortable for your budget. Michelle (15:06) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (15:24) Any level of filtration is better than none. But just going back to pots and pans, just so listeners know there's a resource. I have a blog on my website that's the most popular blog on my website and it's on pots and pans. And so I list the specific ones that I use for my home because it is, I research every product I can. I find it. Michelle (15:26) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (15:51) not only important but intellectually really interesting and even some stainless steel pots and pans, you know, they're not all the same and glass is not all the same. So I try and make it really easy for people to click and buy if that's what they want to do or share my thought process so people can do their own research. Michelle (16:01) Mm -hmm. Right. That's awesome. So you do have a lot of resources on specific brands or what you've looked into that is clean. Like another thing is spatulas, you know, they say that the silicone spatulas are better because they could withstand high heat, but then sometimes they, they overlay rubber, which isn't good. So I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? Sophia Gushee (16:43) I'd like to use the example of chocolate chip cookies. There's so many formulas, there's so many recipes for chocolate chip cookies. I grew up with chocolate chip cookies being made of white... Well, if you think about it, I grew up with chocolate chip cookies being really unhealthy. They were made of white sugar, white flour, bad oils. And nowadays there's some really great... Michelle (16:55) I am now craving chocolate chip cookies. Sophia Gushee (17:12) paleo recipes made of almond flour. I'm making it up. I don't know if it's almond flour, but like super healthy flour, healthier sugars, healthier chocolate. It can almost be healthier than most American breakfast options. And that idea is true for plastics, for silicone. for glass, for stainless steel. It depends on the recipe. And so silicone, I'm skeptical of. I'm sure like ideally medical grade silicone is what you wanna use. So for things like pacifiers or baby bottle nipples, I did my best to find medical grade silicone. For cooking, I avoided silicone and plastics for a while. Michelle (17:43) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (18:07) I would just use wooden spatulas and metal just when I need it. But you want to be careful not to use metal on cast iron and stainless steel because the scratching of the surface, even if you have nonstick pots and pans, scratches just facilitate the leaching of chemicals and metals into your food. So wood is better. But sometimes, like if you're making pancakes or you want to scoop up an egg, from your pan then silicone. I finally bought one silicone spatula. Michelle (18:43) So yeah, so in certain circumstances, but ultimately would be the best. Sophia Gushee (18:50) Wood is ideal. And if I remember correctly, I read this trick to tell if silicone was high risk. And if you bend it, like some bakeware is made of silicone, even a spatula, you can maybe like bend the tip. If you can see, let's say your spatula is a blue silicone. If you see a little white and you bend it, then that's a signal that it might not be the healthiest. Michelle (19:14) Right. Sophia Gushee (19:20) So let's go. Michelle (19:20) Right, because it has rubber inside. Yeah, I remember reading that as well. I was like, oh, that's interesting. So some are just better quality that they're like more thorough or there's a certain grading, right? Sophia Gushee (19:23) Yeah. next. Yeah, there are love different levels of purity. Michelle (19:38) Awesome. And then are there filters you recommend? I know I'm getting into the details, but I know that I have those questions and I think a lot of people do. It's like all those details are things that people know because water is so important. And of course they had Berkey, which was huge. Now they shut down. So like what's next? Yeah, I heard this is what I heard. I mean, I have, I have one and I have one at my office, but I know, but I did actually hear. Sophia Gushee (19:42) Yeah, I know, I'm happy to see it. versus Chess now. Michelle (20:08) And I don't know that they had like a lawsuit and they lost. And so they shut it down. So now that there are other companies that distribute them, but you don't know which one's official. So it's kind of, I'm not sure. Sophia Gushee (20:26) Excuse me. I have spent so much time on water filtration and air filtration. I... Michelle (20:33) Yeah. Sophia Gushee (20:40) This is what I do. I have, I'm so paranoid about what's in the water that I have invested to the best of my ability. And so under our kitchen sink, we have a nine stage water filtration system. So there's reverse osmosis, which removes everything, but one water. Michelle (20:59) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (21:09) expert explained to me, I'd never heard it before and I couldn't verify it online, but it kind of made sense. One water expert said to me that if you're drinking water that's stripped of everything and therefore unbalanced, as it goes through your body, it's looking to balance itself so it can leach your bones of minerals and take in other ways. Michelle (21:28) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, I heard about that. Sophia Gushee (21:33) So that made me really nervous. So I also have other materials in the water filtration system to rebalance the water. There's also activated carbon. And in our country home, we also have, our country home is in an area that has cancer clusters. So I'm even more paranoid about water out there. So I have a whole house water filtration system. So it's about, I think, Michelle (21:55) Oh, wow. Sophia Gushee (22:03) I don't know how many pounds, like a huge tank of activated carbon in our basement. So all the water entering our home gets filtered through the activated carbon and then distributed throughout the rest of our home, which was important to me at the time I installed it because my young kids were taking long backs. And... Michelle (22:26) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (22:29) but I still felt like I don't think that's enough, because there's just so much bad activity around our country home with a pharmaceutical company there and like some industrial activity. And so I also installed this nine stage water filtration system under the sink. But if you can't do that for whatever reason, then even a... picture with activated carbon is better than nothing. When I travel, I have water bottles that have a water filtration system in the water bottle. Because I notice when I travel, I end up not really drinking water because I'm afraid to drink water. And so that's helped. But my kids won't use it. They all have it, but they refuse to drink from it. So I'll keep trying. Michelle (23:00) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. I know the kids don't like to listen to us sometimes, but also when you use that, so you were talking about that charcoal. So that's not reverse osmosis. It's too simple. Right. So it just basically cleans it out with the charcoal. Sophia Gushee (23:37) That's not. the water filter, the water bottle. Michelle (23:44) The water, yeah. No, no, the water filter in the house. You had mentioned that you had the charcoal and then you had the night. Sophia Gushee (23:51) The basement has just the activated charcoal. And so that's actually a specific thing you want to ask for because not all charcoal is the same. So you want activated charcoal. And that just absorbs a lot of toxins. But after the water gets distributed through the pipes, it's going to pick up other things from the pipes. Michelle (23:59) Okay. Sophia Gushee (24:18) But also I don't think the activated charcoal is necessarily getting the forever chemicals or nanoplastics. So that's why I feel crazy talking about this or admitting it, but I then have the nine -stage water filtration system underneath the spout for drinking water. And it's just for drinking water. I don't use it for cooking. Michelle (24:41) Mm -hmm. It's not crazy. That's the thing. It's not crazy to want clean water. You know, it's really not. It's just so common to really be exposed to things we shouldn't be exposed to that we have to go out of our way to add all these reinforcements in order to just have clean water, you know, in our life. Sophia Gushee (25:07) Plus, I was learning about all the contaminants in water with really young kids and during pregnancies and nursing and knowing how influential these toxic exposures can be to young developing life. I would do anything to protect my children from these endocrine disruptors and neurotoxicants and carcinogens. So I did my best, but it was really hard to figure out. It really took probably over 10 years because not all the water filtration experts had a holistic understanding of my concern. So it just took many conversations and it took a while to find experts that were informed. Michelle (26:02) And are there ones you recommend or do you have anything on your website of which types of water filtration you recommend from like a pitcher to something under your sink? Sophia Gushee (26:15) I don't remember if I do in the blog. I have a detox Academy. It's a membership where that's where I am much more personal about the products in my home. I share a lot on the blog too, but I often, I, I often want to be able to provide more context for things because nothing's perfect. So I just want to be able. So in my detox Academy, there's more context for. Michelle (26:28) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Sophia Gushee (26:44) the pros and cons of a product, why I chose it. So for example, sunscreen. I reevaluate every year. It's highly complex. When my kids are really young, there is a certain brand of sunscreen that was rated the most non -toxic, but it's a thick white cream. So as my kids became more verbal, they're like, no. And now they're teenage girls. And so, Michelle (26:48) Mm -hmm. Yes, and the kids don't like it. They don't like it. Yeah. Sophia Gushee (27:14) branding matters, you know, like there are a lot of things that go into whether a teenage girl is going to reapply or apply sunscreen. So I had to go more toxic with some products. And so I just explain a lot more of those personal things in the detox academy because I was raised being told if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. And so I just am shy or reserved about. Michelle (27:17) Oh yeah. Mm -hmm, right. Sophia Gushee (27:43) talking about brands or products that are more toxic, but in the detox academy, I'll say, you know, this brand has a higher toxicity rating, but I use it because if I don't, then my children won't reapply sunscreen. Michelle (27:45) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. But no, it makes sense. I mean, I think it is something that can be addressed in a balanced way because otherwise, I mean, it'll, it'll create your, you know, it'll really create a lot of stress, which I feel like is also toxic. So you got to do it in a way that's balanced and sensible and a way that works. Sophia Gushee (28:21) Yeah, it's really important to not aim to be perfect about it and non -toxic does not exist. That's why I often say, like my podcast is called Practical Non -Toxic Living because you also have to enjoy life and that means taking risks and branding. Michelle (28:30) Right. Yeah, it's true. Sophia Gushee (28:48) Brings a lot of joy to teenage girls. Michelle (28:50) For sure. Well, I'm glad that you're saying that because I think that that is, you know, it's definitely an important aspect to address because I do think that that's what happens. It's like with anything you start to learn about it. You almost become almost like a toxic phobe. It's just like we become germaphobes when we have that microscope that we could see what it looks like, you know, so it starts to get in our minds and we're like, oh my God, I don't want that. And there's this like high level of resistance. And the truth is we really can't resist all of it. We cannot go completely clean. So it is important to realize that always it's never going to be perfect. And that's okay. I mean, part of it is obviously trying to alleviate the body's load, but it also, another part of it is actually making the body adaptable, you know, so the body adapts because the body knows how to detoxify as well. I mean, I know there's activated charcoal that people can take as well to help take out the toxins or bind to toxins in the body. So it's a real holistic balance for sure. Sophia Gushee (29:58) I really think of it as yoga off the mat. And I just, I support conscious, just conscious choices and whatever you choose, you shouldn't judge yourself. I had a client who was trying to help her mom detox her home, just detox cleaning products. And the mom was so resistant. And finally, after a few years, the mom finally admitted, Michelle (30:09) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (30:28) I just love my certain perfume and my red lipstick and I'm so afraid you're going to tell me it's so toxic I can't use it. And I said, tell your mom that she can hold on to what she loves and there will be plenty of other changes that she won't mind making. And that's really my philosophy. Hold on to what you love or what brings you great convenience. Let's work together on finding the changes you won't mind making. Michelle (30:37) Yeah. Yeah. That's actually really important. I mean, I will say like that, you know, my daughter likes this one perfume and, and it's not a non -toxic perfume, but I feel like if I get so strict, it's going to cause the opposite effect. And I said, okay, it's not a big deal. Just put it on your clothes, not on your skin. You know, sometimes you just do it once in a while and it's not like every day. So it's like, I think that that's a great way to look at it. It's just like, it doesn't have to be. all or nothing and a little bit it's not going to like be the end all be all like make such a big deal. Sophia Gushee (31:36) I'm sorry. It was really meaningful to me when I spoke to the former dean of the School of Public Health at Brown University, Bess Marcus, who did a lot of research on behavioral change with smokers, cigarette smokers. And a lot of her research in the 60s and 70s, she ended up using in her visits. to physicians to educate physicians on what scientists were understanding about the health risks from cigarette smoking. And after a while, a lot of when she would revisit the physicians, they often were really demoralized and they would say, I tell my patients that if they don't stop smoking cigarettes, their chances of lung cancer are gonna be much higher, but they won't quit. So what's the point? There's no point. And she said, the research shows that a patient, a smoker needs to hear this message at least seven times before the smoker will consider changing. So you have to be among the voice of seven, which helped me so much because if you're trying to educate your children, for example, Michelle (32:48) Mm. Sophia Gushee (33:01) to know that your goal shouldn't be to get them to stop something right away and listen to you, but just to be among the voices of the messages that will give them the right information or the right goals, then at some point, maybe they'll listen to it, but you really can't control other people. You shouldn't try. It'll just ruin your relationship. And so all we can do is just try and be a voice out there without the expectation of, Michelle (33:21) It's true. Yeah, 100%. It's true. Sophia Gushee (33:31) controlling behavior. Michelle (33:33) Oh, 100%. I think that you teach and if people want to take it, they take it. If they can't, if they don't want to, you know, we're all given free will. I have a very big proponent of that because it's important to respect that in others. And ultimately it's their decision. Um, but educate, I, I'm really big on, I think that it's so important to educate people and let them know, because then, then you can make an informed decision. However, that decision wants to end up. but you can make an informed decision because you have information to make that decision. And then if you choose to ignore certain things, that's your choice, but you at least you know before making that decision. Sophia Gushee (34:14) Yeah. Yeah, I just think people have a right to know if you're a health conscious person, then often this is an overlooked pillar of health that can be really empowering. Michelle (34:29) of without a doubt. And then let's talk about actually EMFs, because you had mentioned that I've seen that on your list. So EMFs are definitely something that a lot of it's invisible. So I think that sometimes out of sight out of mind, we can't smell it, we can't really hear it. It's like invisible, but we know it's there and we read about it, but sometimes forget about it. And it's something that we use, especially like if you're going to a library, I mean, anywhere that even a hotel, you know, with all the wifi, it's there in so many places. So talk about the role of EMF and how that can impact reproductive health. Sophia Gushee (35:14) I'll start by trying to explain EMFs in a way that can maybe help listeners visualize it, because I think that has helped me. So I now think of EMFs as just radiation. It's just energy. I think of it as energy. And our cell phones, for example, will maybe use energy from a 3G wavelength or maybe 4G also and 5G and Bluetooth, then cellular, 3G, 4G, 5G, Bluetooth, Wi -Fi, cellular, their energy wavelengths will differ, but also like the, there are other things about the wavelengths that will be different. So Bluetooth, for example, will be something like, whereas Wi -Fi will maybe be more gentle. And if you think of sound as energy too, but that it's almost like a harsh wavelength, it's pecking at our membranes. So if you have Bluetooth earphones in your ear, the... Michelle (36:31) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (36:42) that part of your skull is actually really vulnerable. So even if you're not using the earphones, it's open. So the earbuds are still trying to, they still emit energy towards each other through your skull. A wonderful scientist named Debra Davis, she's highly accomplished. She, Michelle (36:49) Because it's open. It's open. Sophia Gushee (37:11) She was integral in banning smoking on cigarette planes decades ago. She has been, God bless her, she's been pioneering science on how these electromagnetic fields from our technology are affecting our health and development and reproductive health outcomes. Side note, she won a Nobel Prize with Michelle (37:18) God bless her. Sophia Gushee (37:40) Vice President Al Gore on their work for climate change. So she's an amazing scientist, but she... I just lost my train of thought. Michelle (37:55) That happens to me all the time. We were talking about the earbuds and the yeah. Sophia Gushee (37:59) the earbud. She has, uh, she's published a few wonderful books, but she just re -released a book called Disconnect, which explains the science on how radiation from things like our cell phones and laptops are threatening our health and wellbeing. So if listeners want to get a great overview on that, I highly recommend Disconnect. And I also have... one podcast episode with Debra Davis on the Practical Non -Toxic Living podcast if they want to listen and her executive director is on another one. But she and another great scientist, David Carpenter, were part of a team that filed a lawsuit against the FCC for not considering the scientific studies, the peer -reviewed scientific studies that have come out since the wireless standards were set in 1996. And the judge ruled in their favor. But the judge said to the FCC, you have these list of things you have to now respond to, but there's no deadline for the FCC to respond by. So progress isn't really going to go anywhere, but at least the judge acknowledged that standards need to be updated and the FCC needs to consider what scientists have learned since 1996. But studies have shown that laptop radiation and cell phone radiation near like the male reproductive area damages sperm quality. So men should be really mindful of where they place the laptop and... Michelle (39:44) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (39:51) If you're going to have a cell phone on your body, ideally you don't, but that's really hard to do nowadays. If it is on your body, the perfect solution is to turn off your phone. Most people can't do that. The next best thing is to disable cellular Wi -Fi and Bluetooth. And so I just work on having my family members, my children and my husband use airplane mode to disable those things. Michelle (40:19) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Sophia Gushee (40:21) And so when you're walking, just know you're taking, you're disconnecting, taking a little break. And then when you need to check your messages, then you can easily enable all that. So that's, that's how I approach EMFs. So male sperm quality, sperm quality is easier to measure than female reproductive health. So even though they're, scientists don't know how radiation affects our ovaries or the DNA in our reproductive in the ovaries, that doesn't mean that it doesn't cause harm. It's just the studies for women are much more complex. Michelle (41:10) Right, right. I mean, if it impacts men, you would imagine, I mean, and then a lot of people put their laptop on their bodies or they put like other devices on their bodies. I've, you know, people have the Apple watch, you know, all the basically the smartwatches and it's constantly on their body. And I, I look at it from a Chinese medicine perspective and how we have energetic meridians and we do have an energetic body around us. and it's intelligent. So having anything interfere with that definitely impacts our bodies and our vitality. And, you know, so I definitely think about that. And let me ask you, what are your thoughts? Because some people say the 5G is like the most strong radiation. So I always have my kids opt in for LTE. And I do myself on my phone because I'm like, okay, maybe it's a little less radiation. Maybe it's not as good quality, but like the radiation is a little lower. I mean, I don't even know anymore. Sophia Gushee (42:17) They, again, all the like 3G, 4G, 5G, they're just different layers of energy. And so I think of the home as a sea of radiation. So the more you can take out or silence, the better for you, the less burden on your body. So it's hard. I mean, I live in New York City and I think what I aim to do with, I'm always using airplane mode. Michelle (42:22) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Sophia Gushee (42:47) which annoys most people that they can't call me and reach me right away, but so be it. But my, you know, I have to work within like, what can I ask of my family that won't have them completely reject everything I ask. And so for me right now, I'm just trying to get them to use airplane mode when they don't need to be wirelessly connected. If you're able to, Michelle (42:51) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yes. Sophia Gushee (43:16) have your family, your loved ones do even more than that, then that's better. It's just less of a stressor on your body. And so I just want to make the point again that some of these wavelengths like Bluetooth can weaken your membrane. So for example, studies show that cell phone radiation can weaken the blood brain barrier. which protects our brain from toxic compounds in the blood. So just keep in mind that idea that if you never give your body a break from a growing intensity of radiation in our environment, at home, school, work, even public areas, then your organs like your brain are more likely to... be more vulnerable to toxic compounds in your blood and elsewhere. So that's why it's just important to be mindful and to be able to create recovery periods for your body. And so the bedroom is a great area to focus on. It's hard to control many things in life and sometimes even in our homes if we live with other people. Michelle (44:29) Mm -hmm. Sophia Gushee (44:39) But the bedroom is a really good focus because hopefully you're sleeping seven to eight hours. You won't miss being wirelessly disconnected. So just make that energy in your sleep area be as silent as possible so your body can get higher quality sleep and be more resilient to what we can't control. Michelle (45:02) Yeah, one of the things that I love is earthing or getting a grounding mat because it does absorb excess like, you know, frequencies in our body just brings it down and it does it's been shown to help with inflammation. I mean, it does so much so much to help the body. I feel like it is one way we can kind of organize our energy again, like our body's energy. a way that is, you know, it gives us something that we can do to help. And then I've also read about shungite. And I think that there was a study done on shungite because of its high carbon content that does tend to neutralize radiation. Sophia Gushee (45:49) Yes, I'm actually wearing a shangite now. Michelle (45:51) Oh, look at you and I have this look. Sophia Gushee (45:57) Bye. After talking to scientists about different EMF protection products and other experiences, I'm now at a place where I like to assume they don't work just because I don't want to have a false sense of security. Because some products, some EMF protection products, especially ones that you plug into an electrical outlet, sometimes they cause more Michelle (46:21) Right. Sophia Gushee (46:33) harm than good or they just create. So for example, you can, for example, I have a router which I can't move outside a daughter's bedroom. So her bedroom gets a lot of radiation and an EMF expert recommended paint that to paint her walls, special paint that would block out the radiation. It took me years later and another EMF expert to realize that the cell phone towers beaming into her bedroom from outside her apartment that are on rooftops across the street. bounce off the walls of her painted walls and create a chaotic energy that's even more stressful for my daughter's body. I don't really know what's true, what the big picture is, but it just made me nervous about. That's one example among others that made me feel like I don't really know how to use these things safely. And so I am. Michelle (47:28) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Sophia Gushee (47:51) Like I think shungite probably does work, but how much shungite do we need? Like plants do detox the air, but for plants to be an effective air purifier, you probably have to live in a greenhouse. You need a lot of plants. Michelle (47:55) Bye. Right, right, right. This is true. I mean, yeah, we could definitely like, we can keep going and dive deep and, and, you know, enter the rabbit hole, go down the rabbit hole with so many of these things. So I definitely, I could see that for sure, but it is important to know. Sophia Gushee (48:23) But natural ways of earthing, like I'm a big proponent of, which is just skin contact with earth. I really like on grass and soil, the sea is great, immersing yourself in sea water and the ocean, those are really excellent healing ways to ground. Michelle (48:32) Yeah. No doubt nature is incredible and it really knows how to balance us. I mean, because we are part of nature, it's designed that way. So it is pretty amazing. So, I mean, this is just such a great conversation. I could literally pick your brain for hours. And I love some of the things that we talked about, really good information. And for people who are interested and want to learn more, how can they find you? Where should they go? on your website or, you know, navigate through this. Sophia Gushee (49:19) My website is great. The newsletter is the best way to follow the podcast, the detox academy, 40 day home detox and new blog articles and so much more. So I also have detox workshops online. So Ruan living R U A N is a Nancy living .com has also and I can share this link with you. I have a free. non -toxic cleaning guide, which is super helpful in explaining the safest way to clean your home. Michelle (49:58) Awesome. Yeah, that would be great. So Sophia, thank you so much for coming on today. This is such an informative episode. I really appreciate everything that you shared today. So thank you so much. Sophia Gushee (50:11) My pleasure.