Show notes
On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I'm joined by Jiaming Ju @kunhealth, a second-generation traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) practitioner and health economist who co-founded Kun Health with her father. From leading one of the world's largest longevity data projects to creating personalised Chinese herbal formulations, Jiaming brings a rare and fascinating perspective to holistic fertility care. We dive deep into the roots of Chinese medicine and its powerful role in treating unexplained infertility, recurrent miscarriage, and postpartum recovery. Jiaming shares why customized herbal medicine—rather than a one-size-fits-all approach—is key, and how stress, liver qi stagnation, and over-medicalisation can often stand in the way of conception. We also discuss the importance of preparing the body and mind for pregnancy, how men's health is often overlooked in fertility journeys, and the practice of wu wei—doing nothing—as a healing principle. This is an eye-opening and empowering conversation for anyone navigating fertility or seeking a deeper understanding of the interconnectedness of health, mindset, and tradition. Key Takeaways: Chinese herbal medicine offers a deeply personalized and effective approach to treating fertility challenges, especially unexplained infertility and miscarriage. Liver qi stagnation and chronic stress are common root causes in fertility struggles. True healing goes beyond quick fixes—it involves preparing the whole body and mind for pregnancy, not just aiming for a positive test. Partner health, especially sperm quality, is often under-acknowledged and under-tested in fertility journeys. Practicing wu wei—intentional rest and non-productivity—can help calm the nervous system and enhance reproductive health. Guest Bio: Jiaming Ju is the co-founder of KUN Health, where she partners with her father to offer personalised Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) care rooted in decades of lineage and wisdom. Before stepping into the world of herbal medicine, Jiaming led one of the largest global data projects on aging, spanning from New York to Singapore. With a background in health economics and longevity research, she brings a unique perspective to healing—bridging ancient Chinese traditions with modern insights. Together with her father, she helps individuals restore balance, improve fertility, and honour the heritage of Chinese medicine through customised herbal formulations and deep one-on-one care. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about KUN Health hereFollow Jiaming Ju in Instagram —------------- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ _____ Transcript: **Michelle Oravitz:** [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast Jiaming. **Jiaming Ju:** Thank you for having me. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. I would love for you to share your background. I know you're second generation, um, traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, which is really cool. Um, I love the fact that you actually have your roots there and your father does too, and I feel like. That kind of takes it to a whole other level when you're working and learning from your parents. So I'd love to hear your background and have you share it with the listeners. **Jiaming Ju:** Uh, so I'm a health economist first. So I was in health, I was in economics basically for 10 years. Um, and. I think before Covid I was running one of the largest think tank on longevity, uh, data collecting in the world at the time in Singapore. Um, and then I came back to the States in 2019 and decided to [00:01:00] retrain for four years. It takes four years in California. And then, um, that's when also around the same time I opened Quinn. **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. So, um, do you Longevity? I think of longevity and I think about fertility. 'cause a lot of times when we treat fertility, we're actually doing a lot of anti-aging. Um, we don't call it that 'cause we're working on mitochondria and really kind of getting the health, um, of the eggs and the uterine lining. So tell us about your experience with fertility and what you've, um, what you've seen. In practice. **Jiaming Ju:** Well, I mean, I work with a lot of people who have unexplained infertility. That's actually an area that, um, that I work a lot in. And, uh, this applies to both men and women among my patients. So I will have. A lot of patients who, uh, you know, they probably had a failed, failed rounds of IVF. [00:02:00] Um, and then that's when we work together. I also have a lot of patients, um, who have repetitive miscarriage, uh, which is increasingly, uh, common, unfortunately. And then I also work with a lot of women on postpartum, which is more on the traditional side, as you know, in Chinese medicine. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes, and so I know that we often get asked this, and I get asked this too, but I love always hearing the different perspectives on Chinese medicine. To explain to people in layman terms, why does acupuncture and Chinese medicine, I know Chinese medicine's a big umbrella. Acupuncture is really one part. I think most people think just acupuncture, but of course there's MOA herbs. I mean, there's so many different things. There's also auricular, you can get really detailed on that. So can you explain what Chinese medicine could do really to regulate periods, to regulate ovulation? Just kind of help fertility.[00:03:00] **Jiaming Ju:** Well, I mean, first off, I think I grew up in the Chinese medicine family business, so to me it's very bizarre when people separate them. Um, you **Michelle Oravitz:** the acupuncture and the herbs and the, **Jiaming Ju:** treatment from the, herbal treatment. However, I think, um, customized herbal formulation has always been the elitist form of Chinese medicine. It takes a lot of family lineage. Um, you know, pre bottled stuff aside for the modern human really, you know, whether you have fertility issues or not is really that one has to take a one-on-one approach to effectively treat something that's very complex. So having said that, um, I only work at Quinn for customized herbal formulation, so we don't do, although I'm licensed, I don't do acupuncture, uh, **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, got it. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought you did acupuncture as **Jiaming Ju:** no I don't. **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, okay. **Jiaming Ju:** We have all of you guys who are. **Michelle Oravitz:** actually, um, I know in China they do separate it. A lot of times people will get really, really [00:04:00] focused on one aspect. **Jiaming Ju:** Um, yes and no. I think in if, because in China and Korea they have TCM hospitals, right? So you have different departments where post-stroke, you go first off to the acupuncture people, which is the physical therapy part of Chinese medicine. And then. Depending on the severity of the stroke, you likely will get customized herbal formulation on top of that. Um, I usually say that, um, acupuncture is amazing, is like a great deep spring cl that everyone needs it often, um, customized herbal formulation and diagnosis is more like a renovation, so they're entirely different projects. I think when you consider a human as a house, right, you're building a house, you need, you have different needs. Um, in terms of female, I think we go back to the topic. I always like to talk about how, uh, women are fundamentally very, very important in Chinese medicine [00:05:00] because Chinese historically are obsessed with babies. Um, so this is the reason why a long time ago in all these empress, like, you know, like palaces, you will have. Uh, a whole college of hundreds of royal physicians, and they're all Chinese medicine doctors. And their goals are not only to keep, to make sure the emperor can live for as long as possible, is to make sure all these concubines can produce as many kids as possible. So this is why I think the, the practice, um, has a lot more interest in the history, right? The history is being that. We love kids and you want, China has one of the largest population in the world throughout history and you know, so it has a lot of that. You want kids and you need to care about women's health. So in a nutshell, I really like what you mentioned before, like when I actively worked as a, basically a longevity economist and my job was to advise countries in terms of, um, you know, fertility policies, aging population, right? How can you encourage, [00:06:00] and I often say that women's. Women friendly policies are essentially longevity policies. You don't have women giving birth to kids, then you won't have a, you know, sustainable population. This is one of the same. So I really liked you pointed that out. That is totally right. I think not many people think like that. Um. And so in a nutshell, like there is the historical interest then that would mean that in terms of research, there is the interest in the research, there is interest in data, there is, uh, Chinese medicine has been around for 3000 years and gynecology in particular in that field has been around for 3000 years. This is very different with how western medicine has developed. Right? Like c-section technique for example, was developed, I dunno, a hundred years ago, like it is very. It's, it is, it is. So it's really like not comparable in terms of history, even sheer patient number and uh, patient cases. So I think Chinese medicine really in many ways excel in understanding women's health [00:07:00] and fertility. I. **Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. And I, I always say like with medicine, one of the key things that you wanna look at is how well does it age And Chinese medicine ages really well. So a lot of times you'll see new things, new pharmaceuticals, and then a couple years later you find out it's not as great and then something else comes out with Chinese medicine. I mean, it looks at nature, it really looks at like the elements of nature. That is something that is consistent. It's just part of really understanding that and then understanding ourselves. So I think that that is so cool about Chinese medicine. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. The internal is very much so the physical, right. I have, I'm sure you have too, a lot of patients who on the surface they're like. Really healthy. Uh, but they haven't had a period for three years. So, you know, this is, this is not, and then they will spend the money on Botox. But which then you're like, okay, you look good for maybe a [00:08:00] month, and then you have to do this again. Right. It, it is very different perspective. I think, um, many people say that, you know, why do, for example, in the practice of, uh, postpartum recovery, right? I'm sure you see it, and I see it a lot from the practice where. People who don't have, who are not on top of their health condition, especially in terms of digestive health. I'm more prone to have thyroid issues or, you know, uh, preeclampsia in the last trimester and then post burst. This doesn't only drag their health just downhill. And then also impact how you're going to have a second kid or a third kid if you want to. It really completely like, you know. Like it really completely wrecks your house in a ways that you didn't even see this coming. And that is a completely different perspective, right? Because often I will have patients who say that, oh, you are the first person who listens. How do you know I have these issues? Before I even tell you, I. It is really patterns. And I go back because [00:09:00] I am a nerd and I am an economist. Like I go back to data collecting Chinese medicine like in my father's, you know, practice. Like he will start seeing a kid at the age from the age of five and then she's, he sees the same kid when the kid is 35. You see a person's in a whole families right Conditions throughout their whole life, and That's The best possible data collection you can dream of, and you can think of. This is not just a, oh, here is some pills for antidepressant, for postpartum depression. Like give a women a pill like that. They will still have gazillion other issues, like what does this solve? And you will hear often for people who have postpartum depression, for example, right? Like they will then be dependent on depre antidepressant for the rest of their life. Then one questions. What does that serve? Right? Where does that put you as a human? Do you feel like you are out of control for your own health? Um, so Yeah. it's a different approach. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, completely. Uh, it's interesting you say about [00:10:00] antidepressants because I feel like it's almost, um, a screen in between me and the person. I feel like I'm not able to fully get through to the person with the treatments because there's something in the middle, in the way I. And um, and of course I don't tell them just stop because I know that that is a whole process. They have to be under the care of a doctor and tell them how to come out of it, because it's not something that you can just suddenly take out. I often feel like that. And I'd much rather if I can just treat it with nothing else, it'll be a lot easier. And then another thing too is um, that I thought you said that was really interesting and true is, um, you know, I think a lot of times often people just want that positive pregnancy, but you talked about something that is actually crucial. If people want a healthy pregnancy and then also healthy afterwards for more kids, you really have to think big picture and not just quick fix. And I [00:11:00] think that we're so conditioned for the quick fix that we don't think about the whole garden and really tending the soil. And I always think about it like that. It's like, yeah, we could throw a seed in and maybe that's gonna sprout. But if we don't give it the conditions it needs, those roots aren't gonna go deep and it's not gonna be a sustainable, like rooted sprout, which I think similar with pregnancy, you want not just pregnancy, but you want a healthy pregnancy, and you also want a healthy mom and baby. You need it all. It's not like you can have an unhealthy mom, healthy baby. You have to have the whole picture working together. **Jiaming Ju:** I think that's why like many people getting on IVF, and if you consider it a percentage of success rate for IVF is actually not that high. Right? Um, and then everyone is, and a lot of people are disappointed because they feel like I paid all this money and I, I, I got it. Why is it not happening? I think first off is because we're all conditioned to think that pregnancy is such a simple thing, right? You do it and you'll get [00:12:00] pregnant. Uh, the, in Chinese medicine we always say mental is the physical and vice versa. The impact of stress of our day-to-day demand, of being a modern human, whatever, whatever that means, has a huge number in other fertility potential, right? I often says to, I often say to my, uh, patients, um, and I say like, you know, often because. My patients might, in the middle of it, they're, they didn't come to see me For, fertility, but like after they healed from like long covid or something, they're like, I want to have kids. You know? Now I can really think about it and I will usually say that, you know, definitely be careful with like when you wanna get pregnant, because the healthier you are, the fertile you are, the more fertile you are. Often I think in this society where we talk about IVF technology, ever since it has been introduced, it has become a thing where people feel like, oh, so long as I do it right, I will, it will happen. And often people get very disappointed when [00:13:00] it doesn't happen. And I'm sure you see in your practice a a lot in recent, in the past five years, you know the, there is an increasing percentage of people who have to DOIs. IVF like twice or three times and still maybe without success. Right? Um, so I think there is a lot of, um, a lot to be said about looking at fertility, not just as a functionality that you as a woman or you as a human will just somehow have, but it's really about your overall health, right? Like, and I often talk to people who have repetitive miscarriage. I'm like, your digestive health is everything. Who is gonna carry the baby is gonna be you. Now, if you are having, already having like nausea, dry gagging, like five times a day, even when you're not pregnant, your chances of basically having repetitive miscarriage is probably quite high, right? So we have to fix what's, what is the fundamental thing. It is. Not that let's have a kid, because often [00:14:00] I, um, and I very, I talk about this not very often. But I do treat kids, and you often see a lot of kids who have incredible intolerance for food early in age is due to the fact that mother had a very difficult pregnancy. Um, so this is very much so linked. It's not, like you said, it's not like the mother has to be in perfect house. So you have a chance, the mother and father in perfect house. So you have a chance of this baby being in perfect house often, even if you could get pregnant, if you have a kid who has so many problems, um, in the first two or three years there, basically. Um, you know, there was one time with a patron of mine who, when he came to see me, he was two and a half years old and he was basically deemed a failure to thrive because he couldn't gain weight and he was having leg diarrhea. Often. He was having crazy eczema. And then you find out the mom during [00:15:00] pregnancy and before pregnancy had a lot of issues. So this is all interlinked. Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** it really is. Another thing I see often is people who do IVF and then they go to the doctor and the doctor says, well, you barely have anything. You really need to start immediately. And I always encourage them, spend a little time prote, you know, preparing yourself if they've never, if they haven't come to me and I say, you're much better off waiting a few months. Taking care of yourself, nourishing yourself, then doing IVF, then rushing into it. 'cause we're just looking at numbers and not kind of thinking about the quality and the preparation. **Jiaming Ju:** Mm-hmm. ' **Michelle Oravitz:** cause in three months, it's not like you're gonna just lose everything. It's gonna just drop off a cliff. I mean, it's gonna be a few more months. You're gonna be in much better position. **Jiaming Ju:** I think that's totally true. I mean, in, in the old country, in East Asia, when you prepare for pregnancy, six months is very standard. That's when your partner quits smoking. They quit drinking, you know, you both eat [00:16:00] healthy. All of those stuff, Right. Um, and in this country we don't, it's almost like nobody necessarily prepare it. Everyone just expect it would just happen until it doesn't happen after a while and suddenly it goes from, oh, I'm really casual about it, to now I'm in a panic. I must do IVF. Right? Um, and. A large, obviously unexplained infertility has a lot to do with, there are multiple root causes. One of the most common ones I have seen is actually intense liver g stagnation, where often a women consider themselves as a failure for not being able to get pregnant. And the more you and I usually be able to tell with a patient when the first, for the first consultation, they'll say, I need to be pregnant by this date. **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. **Jiaming Ju:** You're not a machine, we're not ai. It doesn't work like that. And often, I also, I don't know whether you experienced this in your practice as well, but I [00:17:00] often, uh, I always ask about better the partner, uh, or whoever, is the sperm donor better? They have tested, oftentimes they have not. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I agree. **Jiaming Ju:** has done all the work then, **Michelle Oravitz:** I've seen that a lot and and sometimes the doctors don't even mention it. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. And it is shocking to me because as we all know. through research, uh, I believe it was the newest study done using collective data from Europe, uh, the sperm quality, both in terms of speed and quality per say, is 50% lower than like. 20, 30 years ago, and this is understandable due to drugs, due to not sleeping, due to not taking care of ourselves, Right. Due to stress. So why is it always that we're plowing the field of a women? And I always say this, I said the worst thing would be I'm p plowing your field. And the seed is subpar then. So, **Michelle Oravitz:** Correct. **Jiaming Ju:** right? Like, it's so, like, it's So easy. for the man to get checked. [00:18:00] It takes no time at all. **Michelle Oravitz:** I know. **Jiaming Ju:** So like how is it in this, like, you know. this is almost common sense both in terms of money, in terms of time, get your, get your sperm donor, you know, partner checked first. Um, it's, uh, It is interesting. **Michelle Oravitz:** It is for sure. And then also, I mean it's, what's interesting is, yeah, you can get checked and everything looks normal and they're like, everything's perfect. But then the DNA might have something off, which. A normal analysis does not cover that. It's a special test that people take after, and usually they won't do that unless there were like miscarriages or there were failures with, um, the embryos to grow. So they'll, they'll then they'll check the sperm. DNA fragmentation. **Jiaming Ju:** It is always a little too late. And interestingly, um, I think even given my own experience, like I have two kids and they were born in different, two different countries, and I. Uh, [00:19:00] the second one who was born in the us I think the, the, even the md, the gynecologist like checkup is very minimum. There was, you know, like if you want like a, a better, clearer picture, you gotta pay more. Like there is like, I think the, the, the standard of what women are provided in this country in terms of like basic, you know, um, like a, a basic kind of gynecological service, um, throughout is very low compared to other countries. Uh, but I mean that also creates a lot of. Tension and anxiety from first time moms. Right. You don't know. And then you show up and then you said you're having some pain and doctor's like, it's okay. And then You know, there **Michelle Oravitz:** supported because you know, internally something's off. Like, you're like, I know something's off. I'm not crazy, but like, ah, you're fine. It's in your head. **Jiaming Ju:** right. And I think through and, and I think that's really the fundamental difference between [00:20:00] Chinese medicine and western medicine. Right. Chinese medicine. This is why a lot of people ask me, they're like, you're a Columbia educated economist. You wrote for the Economist magazine, and then you know, you run Nobel Prize winner think tank like, but like Chinese medicine, it must be so different. It's actually not. Health economics is all about getting subjective health data from. The person you interview, that's not so different from what, what we do in Chinese medicine. It's about you being the patient who knows best about your health, right? So if you say you have a pain, you have a pain, I'm, I'm don't live in your body. I don't get to judge you. I think this is also the reason why so many people feel heard. Chinese medicine clinics, um, where they feel like you're just another pregnant person, like time is up, you are leaving. So it's um, it's a very different process. Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** It is such a different process and I actually remember myself the first time I went to an [00:21:00] acupuncturist. This is like kind of what started it all. I was, uh, in a completely different career and I all I could get from every single doctor I went to was the birth control pills. And people hear hearing this, a lot of my listeners already know my story, but it was just basically I had irregular periods and that was the only answer I can get. Never made sense to me on a intuitive sense. I was like, this just doesn't make sense. There's gotta be something. They're like, Nope, that's just your body. The only time you can have normal periods is if you take this. So I went through 12 years of that and the first time I met. My first doctor, Dr. Lee, who's from China, and he actually happened to specialize in gynecology. He sat with me and one of the biggest takeaways, like the biggest impacts that it had, was him listening to me and asking me questions and showing me interest in every part of my life. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. This is so cool. I've never gotten this much attention from anybody [00:22:00] on like, what's going on in my body? **Jiaming Ju:** right. **Michelle Oravitz:** And then, um, so that was really fascinating. Of course, that did change my period and I was resolved. I, I did the, you know, real raw herbals and the acupuncture. But then also, uh, looking back when I went to school, one of my teachers said, and it kind of like never left my mind that part of the healing, like the therapy starts before a needle goes in. Just by listening and the second you feel heard, that by itself has an impact on your healing. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. The, the physical is mental and that is, um, observed and in every single way we treat patients. I have, I would just say like 90% of my patients not only have like physical ailments, they have a lot of like mental. Concerns as well. Right. Um, and usually as both the, the [00:23:00] mental improved physical improvement and vice versa. And this usually seems very, like, it's like a huge surprise or a big relief to the patients because they're like you. I mean, I, I didn't have to take antidepressant pill for this whole time. Right. Um, it's, I think is, is is, it is a very interesting. Myth we are told, um, and I, I don't mean this as a, as a, something like a, like I'm simply raising this as a question. How is it that we all come in different shape and form, race, color, experience, lifestyle, choices, all of that, and sexes. And then when you say, okay, someone is suppressed, you give everybody exactly the same. The only thing that varies is in the dosage. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yep. **Jiaming Ju:** Isn't that weird? **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Jiaming Ju:** Right? Like it, and if you ask people who are depressed, um, I'll give you an example because I have a lot of A DHD patients, um, [00:24:00] especially, um, and The first thing I always ask when I examine the tongue, um, for A DHD patients is better. You have anemia. And often they do. Um, but as we know in Chinese medicine, even if the lab says you don't have anemia, your tongue can tell me you have anemia. The, the chance of you being anemic and showing a DHD symptoms is very high. So is that actually a DHD or not? Oftentimes is actually not true. A DHD. This is the reason why a lot of women who, uh, thought they have a DHD got on A DHD medication and then they crash when they don't take the medication, right, their energy crash, their focus crash. Then if, I mean, this is really a questions like if you take something, it works. The minute you stop, it doesn't work. Did they ever work? Right. It's almost **Michelle Oravitz:** it resolve it? It's not resolving, it's not a, a true solution. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. And then [00:25:00] when we talk about pregnancy, it's a similar process, Right. Is this just we implant a child in your body? Great. I'm glad technology works, but I think if I recall back in the days when, uh, IVF was invented, It was not supposed to be used so widely in today's environment. It was for, I believe, for specific reason, Right. There was a, a really strong infertility, I believe structurally for. Was it the researcher? We invented it. So like it was not supposed to be. It's the same thing with C-section. It was not supposed to be widely used. Like today's, I remember when I lived in Singapore, uh, C-section was so popular. It was like, you can pick your date. It was a thing you can pick, pick a auspicious date to give birth to your child, and everyone goes to have a csection on the same day. It wasn't designed like that. It wasn't meant to be used like that. So I think. Modern human need of getting things done. [00:26:00] Like I need to have a child. Here is the child, and here the child is delivered like this need of doing, boom, boom, boom. Just click on your life. To-do list is preventing us to see the garden you talked about is preventing us from really taking care of ourselves and really do the way that we are supposed to do that. Nature enables it because we probably wants too much. I don't know. **Michelle Oravitz:** It's a too quick to, you know, quick fix. It's, it's going against the dao. It's going against that present moment, that being present because I, my theory or 'cause it wasn't really something that I specifically learned, but like, the more present you are, the more life force q you have because you, in this portal, your energy, your attention, like you said, no separation between the mind and the body. So the more present we are, the more energy could be here. If our minds are here and then it's somewhere else, or our bodies are just here and our minds somewhere else, we're scattered all over the place. [00:27:00] And, uh, so let's actually go back 'cause I thought that was really interesting what you were saying about the liver chi, like really, really severe liver cheese stagnation. Uh, for people listening, I've talked about the liver before, but liver cheese stagnation is severe stress. It's really being, to me it's kinda like being in major fight or flight chronically. **Jiaming Ju:** Mm-hmm. And it is interesting because the liver store is the blood. So some people will say like, especially, it's funny because I lived in New York for a long time and I will always spot a patient from New York, uh, from a mile away because whenever you ask them like, are you stressed? They're like, no, they look really stressed, but they're like, no, I can't handle it. This is intense Stress. Handling it, you know, doesn't **Michelle Oravitz:** first of all, I lived in New York, so I know exactly what you're talking about. 'cause I'm a re recovering New Yorker. And then secondly ahead, I have a, like, I have a patient I could just picture in my head right now. I'm like, how are you doing? Everything's perfect. Everything's fine. Sleep is good. Good, good, good. Great. You know, and I'm like, she, and, [00:28:00] and then like every needle that goes in, oh, oh, you know, she's. **Jiaming Ju:** I think this is the hardest lesson in life. Um, I feel. Um, is to desire something and not getting it, like, either, not on your timeline or like not the way you want it. And I think, um, liver cheese stagnation is exactly that. I mean, traditionally we say, oh, it's anger is more manifested in road rage. But really in today's society, I like to interpret liver cheese technician manifested in ways. That is like a mild, like a irritability, like a constant irritability. You're just waiting people to, to do something wrong and you are snap at them, right? We are all familiar with that kind **Michelle Oravitz:** It's resistance. It's resistance to life. **Jiaming Ju:** frustration, right? You're like constantly frustrated. Someone [00:29:00] else got a promotion, you think you are deserve the promotion, you're not seeing anything frustration. It is. What you think in your head you deserve. And the reality, and there is a gross, like mismatching here. Um, and I, every single time I have a patient who comes because of, you know, infertility issues and I will always spend so much time talking to them about their psychology, like mental health. I, the way I do consultations. I have a huge part, at least I think. Total 30% of my total questions about the mental this matters in particular to people who have been having difficulty pregnant because, and I explain it to my patients like this, if you are so stagnant, if your body is so full of stagnation and cheat, where do you think a baby can sit? The baby. The baby has nowhere to sit. There is no room for the child. And [00:30:00] that in a way. Is indeed the hardest lesson because to be pregnant, to be a parent to me personally, I think is the hardest thing in life is, is the uncertainty. You can do everything you do. Right, right. In, in parenthood. You don't know how it's gonna turn out, and this is, this process actually start from getting pregnant. Like so many people feel so certain, oh, I just do it, you know, a couple of times. And during ovulation I will be pregnant. It doesn't work like that in Chinese medicine. You know, when it advocates for healthy pregnancy, it is the Jing, it is the Chi, it is the Ansys, it is the spirit and body of you and your partner. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yep. **Jiaming Ju:** I'm not even a religious person, but I would say that is rather agno agno agnostic like process, right? Because it depends. You need a bit of luck For a [00:31:00] person who is intensely chi stagnant, they don't believe in luck. You, I'm, I don't know whether you've checked this with your patients, **Michelle Oravitz:** yeah. No, they, they put everything on their shoulders. They think that it's all up to them, and that's why they feel like they need to control, and it's being in that fight or flight because you're in survival mode. And when you're in survival mode, there's not plenty to go around. You need to scrounge and you need to work, and you need to fight to get whatever you need. And that's, um, that's ultimately, you know, from an observer's perspective. Yeah, that's what I see. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. And it is, you will see whenever that happens, you know, it's almost like you as a provider, you are being told like. This is the only thing you're doing. You're, you're giving me a child and then like, this is never gonna work. This is never gonna work because liver cheese stagnation. Really, I feel like clinically is one of the major reasons for unexplained fertility. And that in turn frustrates the person even more because you're telling them structurally there is nothing wrong, [00:32:00] but they just cannot get pregnant no matter what they do. Right. Um, so this is already a deeply frustrating process and telling them that, leave it to. Just follow the protocol and leave it to fate. And you, I will always notice that 50, not 50%, like you always have like 20% of people or 30% of people who are just not, they'll ask you like, what are the best thing I can eat to make this happen faster? Right? Like, what, what is, um, you're going against what you, you know, you're, you're doing exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to. Um, but that is hard. I think **Michelle Oravitz:** It is hard. Yeah. It, it's, it's one of those things that is often missed and I, I, I actually wrote a book about that. 'cause in the book I don't give any diet tips or anything. Like, I'm like, that's not what's needed. Because everybody can look up like the best diet and there's plenty of great books about what can help. And of course everybody's different and, you know, really understanding kind of your own sensitivities and et cetera. But. [00:33:00] My point is, is that many times people going through the fertility journey are actually very smart. They're very educated, and they educate themselves on. Supplements and what to do. And so they're, they, they have that down, but that's not what it's about. I mean, it's about also the nervous system and I, I say the nervous system 'cause it's more late layman terms, but it's ultimately what the QI does. Like the QI needs to move and to flow. And if we're in this fight or flight, it's stagnates. And so you see that often? **Jiaming Ju:** I think that's really true because it is really about the difficult, the most difficult thing in life is to dive into uncertainty. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Jiaming Ju:** You have two types of people who, well, you have three types. One type who just like go with the flow, right? Nothing wrong with that. You have one type who always wanna get ahead before everybody else. They always wanna know everything that's supposed to be done, it comes to being pregnant, having a healthy delivery, [00:34:00] that's actually not how it works. And I think that's, you gotta have a openness. To say, I'm going to dive into this uncertainty because you know what, when a baby is here, when you have to raise this child, right, um, you're gonna need that when they start going to school or even when you homeschool them. It doesn't matter. Like you cannot control everything. And I think that is a very important thing that, uh, really starts even during pregnancy preparation. **Michelle Oravitz:** You know, I will say it's kind of like meeting the love of your life **Jiaming Ju:** Right, **Michelle Oravitz:** and you're not like, you are gonna be the one that I marry. You know, you can't, you, it doesn't work like that. Then the person's gonna wanna run, run away. **Jiaming Ju:** right. you. can't just come with your list and be like, well, You check every single list here. Right. Um. **Michelle Oravitz:** it's gotta be a little more romantic and have those, you know, moments of quiet and silence and, and kind of have this dance [00:35:00] happen. **Jiaming Ju:** Yeah. But you know, I, I think the world has in increasingly, has increasingly become a place where. People want bandage solutions. And I think that where, uh, the economy, if you're looking at some like rising industries, that that's what it gives like, right? A product. This is especially the case in America where it's all about something has a product, right? Like what is the one-off solution you could give to that? But things where humans have been doing for centuries, like procreation. Defies the odd of that, no matter how many one-off Band-aid solutions you're gonna have, it's not going to click. And I keep telling this to all my patients who not only just for fertility, but for every odd syndromes under sun, as I have a lot of patients who have very difficult, complex disorders, [00:36:00] is that. When you commit to something that is trying to get pregnant or trying to get better, it's like when you go to a Taoist pimple or you go to any church or any religious place you go and you put a slice of your peace of your heart and peace of your mind there because you are really committed right in that given moment. And that's all I'm asking for as a provider. Um, I always don't always go into it with. But what about this? What about this? What about this? Like, why don't we settle this one first? Um, so, you know, talk about nervous system. You can come down first. Otherwise your nervous system is all over the place where you are like, you're not doing anything like, you know, fully. So. **Michelle Oravitz:** And what other suggestions do you ever give people, um, suggestions that they could do outside of the. What you're helping [00:37:00] them with. Because I would typically say even like you can come in, do the acupuncture, even take the herbs and supplements. But if you're going back and having a crazy stressful time, then it's going to pretty much negate a lot of what we did. So I'll suggest things even like rounding or spending a little time in the morning of silence or peace just to kind of get themselves into a partnership really with me on their health. **Jiaming Ju:** Um. We have a 16 page behavior report that we customize for every single new patient, um, that I will hold 'em to it. That includes nutrition and also lifestyle tips for people who try to get pregnant specifically. Um, I give, like, I consider this not as tips. I consider this as just like you need to do it is to get your [00:38:00] husband or your partner or whoever donates the sperm tested as soon as possible and making sure they're not drinking like six. Bottles of beer a day. Like, you know, like if you're in this like, you know, situation prep, pre uh, preparing for pregnancy, they should too. Um, and I usually advocate for morning intercourse rather than night intercourse. During ovulation to increase the chances. Um, and there are a bunch of specific ones. I usually give like on a patient to patient base, but I also will tell people to, um, spend at least one or two hours of, of a day to practice the Daoist principle of Uwe. **Michelle Oravitz:** I love that. That's my favorite, by the way. **Jiaming Ju:** and I, you know, your New York patients will be like, no. But like, um, can I actually go cycling during that time? I'm like, no. The point of Uwe is you do nothing productive. [00:39:00] Then they have, you put them in a conundrum because they're like, then I'm just wasting my time. I'm like, no. **Michelle Oravitz:** Wait, so people who don't know wwe, can you explain. **Jiaming Ju:** So WWE is the Daoist principle of doing nothing. Um, it's a practice I regularly issue to people to forcefully calm their mind. So I give a bunch of suggestions through what you can do for your wwe. Like for example, uh, you can knit, but not because. You're knitting for a nephew or something, you're learning to knit, not because you're good at it, it is because you want to. So it's to completely deviate from a lifestyle where we are chasing daily achievement all the time, right? It's more about resting your body and mind and focus on what matters on the present, which traditionally you to think it doesn't matter. So one of my favorite thing, even when I lived in New York City, was to really sit in a random coffee shop and just sit there, read my book or like judge [00:40:00] people's sense of fashion. So I will like people judge when I'm in the cafes. Like, what did you do during that time? Nothing. But I always feel like, great. **Michelle Oravitz:** But it's like effortless effort. You're still there. It's not like you're totally inactive. You're, you're still there, but you're like in this neutral flow state. **Jiaming Ju:** Right, and then that's very important because there is nothing more difficult to a person who tries to get pregnant than thinking they're losing time. They're being told that they're losing time. They're late by every possible doctor under the sun. But you know, that is a time, is a, being late or not is a relative concept, as we say in Chinese medicine, **Michelle Oravitz:** It's true. **Jiaming Ju:** So oftentimes you'll see people like signing off for IVF, not because they're physical ready, It's because they are told they are short on time, right? You don't do this now, you can't do it in three months. But statistics don't work like that. Like you said, you know, [00:41:00] within three months, your body's not going to dramatically change. You, you must well spend the time to take care of yourself, then really increase your chances rather than, I'm gonna dive into this when I'm super stressed. Um, pinning so much hope on this. Um, so yeah, again, I mean, I, I think that's really the thing, like having a child and being pregnant is not just something you must do in life. It's a, it's more than that. It's a mild, it's, it's, um. It's a face in life. One doesn't have to have it, but if you do decide to have it, I, I really think that people need to take a broader view on it. **Michelle Oravitz:** 100%. I think that is so beautifully put because it is a big picture and it's um, you can't just take the part and then look at the part and say, okay, that's it. You have to look at like. How it interplays and works together as a [00:42:00] whole organism. And that's when you get the big picture. And, um, yeah. And I think about like, you know, the yin and the yang, you know, being too young all the time, you're gonna burn out the yin and that's ultimately the nervous system right there, having that balance. **Jiaming Ju:** Yeah, exactly. I think the society demands us to constantly deliver. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Jiaming Ju:** The question is, what are you delivering? There isn't a return policy for a parent once the child is here. You are responsible for them for life. Um, so this is not just, I'm just, I just wanna get pregnant. This is a how it's going to completely transform your life wrecking you because your identity will be rewritten the minute you are pregnant, uh, when you become a parent. Um, and I think people need to probably, you know, take it, I always say like, take it more seriously, but [00:43:00] also take it less seriously. I. Because I think people take it really seriously on the, am I pregnant or not pregnant part, Right. But that don't take that too seriously, but like people need to consider what that means. The implication at your health more seriously. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. And so if people, and it's, it, it really helps to have somebody to work with because I think that. There's a lot of reminders that can be done from somebody who's looking at it more objectively and not in it because it's very hard to understand, um, what you're sharing if you're not working with somebody else. And I think that that's like the benefit on top of obviously getting the therapy, but also getting, you know, the treatments and also. Getting that perspective because when you're too in it, it's very hard to decipher. So I think that that is very priceless. Um, so for people who want to work with you, what do you offer? **Jiaming Ju:** [00:44:00] I think the, if you're interested in, and I always say this as a dare and those are kinds of my favorite tongue, tongue readings to do, is that people who say like, no, I won't tell you anything. I just give you my tongue, and then they're completely in shock when I spell out all your, their life secrets. So I think That's the number one thing you can do. Um, and in these tongue readings, I also give three quick suggestions, but I give a very good overview of like what you're not telling me about what's happening, wizard Health. Um, and that's a very fun thing to do. 'cause everyone has a tongue, right? And tongue reading is one of the most traditional things we offer in Chinese medicine. Uh, but usually the serious, more serious part. Is the one-on-one consultation with me online. And um, and then customized herbal formulation. I would say like 95% of my one-on-one patients on customized herbal formulation. And then. We do the monthly follow up for [00:45:00] that. And then there is also a bunch of digital small booklets, recipe books like that we, um, that I have written. For example, I have a postpartum recipe booklet that I highly recommend for anybody who is pregnant. And you don't know what, what really you heard about this myth about Chinese women eating different things postpartum. You don't know what that is. Uh, I wrote. A 20 page I believe, recipe book that includes breakfast, lunch, and dinner and snack. Uh, for that. So That's a lot of like self study resources as well. Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** That's great. Um, sounds awesome. And you do raw herbs. **Jiaming Ju:** no, I only do gran. **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, granule, which is so easy, but it also is effective because it's easy to digest, easier **Jiaming Ju:** right. And everything is made to order. So we have patients from Scotland to, to Singapore. It's, it. is we, so it's, uh, everything is made to order and I co-write a formula with my dad for every single [00:46:00] patient. So, **Michelle Oravitz:** Fantastic. And how can people find you? **Jiaming Ju:** Uh, you can follow us at Quinn House, KUN House. Uh, I believe we're on TikTok as well, but I never check TikTok. I'm a little bit scared of TikTok, so, um, Instagram is my **Michelle Oravitz:** It's funny, I never got into TikTok too. I just do reels on Instagram. I just love Instagram. **Jiaming Ju:** Yeah, I think TikTok is a little bit of a wild scenario, but, um, yeah, Instagram is where I, I think do the most, so. **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. Well, it was such a pleasure talking to you. You sound like a wealth of knowledge and I love your perspective and really how you understand, um, really from diet and, and also herbals, which is an art in itself. So thank you so much for coming on today. It was such a pleasure talking to you. **Jiaming Ju:** you. [00:47:00]