Show notes
And Other ScandalsWomen getting together to talk about money is totally radical. In that, it used to not be…encouraged?…so it breaks societal norms, and it’s also cool. I think we’re all familiar with that simple math equation of money = power. So, talking about money is really talking about - and, dare I say? - stepping into that power.And yet.Growing up without female role models or movie characters who sit around and talk about stocks makes it hard to know what it would even look like. Can’t we just talk about sex and leave it at that?No! On our last episode of Season 4 (!!!) we talk about why it’s so important for women to share their money stories and insights with other women in the company of our lovely guest Sheila Schroeder, wealth advisor, former Wall Street executive, and author of It’s Time to Talk: A Woman’s Guide to Navigating Money Conversations.Sheila brings nearly 30 years of experience from the trading desks of New York and San Francisco to a deeply human conversation about shame, silence, power, and choice. Her vast experience gave us a chance to dig into why women are so often discouraged from engaging with money, how that silence impacts our lives and relationships, and how we can start changing the narrative, without needing to be “good at finance” or share personal numbers.Here’s where you can find Sheila, and here’s her book It’s Time to Talk: A Woman’s Guide to Navigating Money Conversations.And yes - this is the last episode of Season 4, but stay tuned for next season where we’re going back to the basics. Because some of us have to live in the basics for a few more years before they really sink in.What’s a stock again? We’ll figure it out! In the meantime, send us your dumb investing and finance questions, or just say hi! on our Ask Us page! We have the social medias!! Here’s our Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn.This episode was edited by our co-producer Kelly West. Music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.
Transcripts for Season 4, Episode 14: Women Talking About Money
Caitlin [00:00:03] Welcome to Women on the Verge of a Financial Breakthrough, where we're figuring out finance one dumb question at a time. I'm Caitlin Meredith, a mediator and coach based in the Bay Area. Sara [00:00:18] I'm Sara Glakas, investor, advisor, and founder of BlackBarn Financial, and the Austin Women's Investing Group, which you can find on Meetup. Caitlin [00:00:26] And this is our last episode of season 4. If you enjoyed this season, would you consider giving us a rating on Apple Podcasts, writing a little review? It would be so helpful to get more people listening, more women on the verge, and to give us inspiration to do season 5. Spoiler alert, we're going to be doing some Back to the Basics episodes. See you next season! Caitlin [00:00:54] Oh Caitlin [00:01:00] So today we have Sheila Schroeder. And Sheila, I saw you sparkling as the, I was gonna say curator, it's not curator. What were you? The interview? Moderator. There we go, an ater. You were the moderator at this coming together of women in San Francisco by now a couple months ago. What was that? It was like women in money, women talk about money. Women in wealth, women in wealth essential conversation. Essential conversations. And of course, my friend Sara invited me, who is one of your colleagues, a different money Sara that I know. I know, Sara, you have competition. Sara [00:01:37] How dare you. Caitlin [00:01:39] And the whole point of it was this panel of women professionals in various fields talking about money and women talking about money and being women in their profession, advice that they would give to women and you gave them various scenarios. But first I wanna, before we go into that, why were you the moderator? You work for, you're an investment advisor, but you've had a long storied past in finance. Sheila [00:02:10] Yes. I have a few gray hairs. Yes. So the reason they asked me to moderate is so my role is I'm a consultant, a business development consultant, regional head of business development for wealth spire advisors. So wealth spier is a large RIA registered investment advisor based out of New York. That's where our home offices are central offices. And I work with advisors on the west coast. Caitlin [00:02:42] Okay, but you had a long history in Wall Street, which I know that's not why you're coming on here to talk about, but I can't resist asking you. I feel like women who worked on Wall Street are like these unicorns I have to corner and ask, what was that like? Sheila [00:03:00] Oh my gosh, it raises my blood pressure to even talk about it. I'm not sure that's part of why not, but yes, I spent almost 30 years on Wall Street. And what that meant is, and it is relevant to what I do now. And I was working in the Japanese and the Asian equity markets. So that meant that I was looking at the Hong Kong stock exchange, the Thai stock change etc. Stocks that traded on those exchanges. And what I did with that is I was speaking to large institutional investors. So for example, all of us have money invested in a mutual fund, for example. I was talking to mutual fund portfolio managers who are buying and selling stocks in the Asian markets. So that was my focus. It was incredibly, I loved it. Absolutely loved it, it was super exciting. And I did it for a long time. I didn't leave because I didn't like it. I had done it for long time, and I just wanted to try something new. I wanted to have a little more work-life balance in my life. I mean, almost 30 years. When you work on a trading desk, you are in New York, you're in it 6.30 in the morning, and sometimes you don't leave until many, many hours later. Uh... You know, when I worked in San Francisco, I would be at my desk at 4 a.m. And it wasn't unusual to be working until 7 p.m., and I traveled almost every week. So it was just, yeah, I'd go home and go to sleep and get up, you know? And again, I loved it. It was interesting work and it paid very well. And it certainly helped me create a financial foundation for myself. That was in me and my family. But there also came a point where I was ready to do something different and I pivoted to private wealth okay and that's and so Caitlin [00:05:04] I want to talk to you about the private wealth part, but I just have to ask about being a woman in this equities Asian markets thing. I have to assume there weren't that many other women. Is that an outdated assumption? Sheila [00:05:19] There were not a lot of women. However, there were a lot more women on the Asian desk or the Japanese desk, because we studied Mandarin or Japanese in college. Sara [00:05:32] Is that how you ended up in the Asian markets versus US markets is because of your language background. Sheila [00:05:39] Yeah, I couldn't get a job on the U.S. Desk. Sara [00:05:41] That's so interesting. Caitlin [00:05:43] So women that were interested in languages might've had an in in getting these jobs that they wouldn't otherwise because they had that piece. But without that piece, they would maybe not have been considered. Yeah, I think that's true. Sheila [00:06:02] And years later, as I, you know, I did this for a long time, I was the head of the Asian desk for many, many years at various firms. And if you looked around, there were a lot of other women at other firms who were also the head at the Asia desk, because they had started out when they were young, they got their foot in the door because of their language, obviously, they could do the job. And over time, they became head of a desk. But it wasn't unusual to have a female be the head of the Asian desk or head of the Japan desk because of the language skill. Sara [00:06:34] Did you know that, Sara? I did not. That is fascinating to hear how you got there, because it sounds like what you mentioned is it is more difficult, for whatever reason, for a woman to become the head of. Caitlin [00:06:50] We know the reason. Sara [00:06:51] The U.S. Trading desks, right? There's no language barrier, and so maybe the foot in the door is a little bit more difficult when you were starting out. Sheila [00:07:03] That's my experience. That is why I got the chance. That's fascinating. Caitlin [00:07:10] Sheila, the money part also came like you were adept at languages, but also you had to have some interest in the stock market investing finance. What led to that as someone who didn't have any interest and actively closed my ears that this any talk of stocks and investing until the age of 40 or, you know, yesterday, what was it about? Sheila [00:07:35] It that intrigued you. You guys are asking such different questions than anyone else has asked. I appreciate it. So this book is a very personal book. In the introduction, I talk about some situations that I was in that were difficult. And I'm not sure I can talk about it without getting emotional, but. Caitlin [00:08:00] You're welcome to talk about it or not talk about it and you're welcome to talk about it and get emotional. All of that's okay, but whatever you're comfortable with. Sheila [00:08:08] So, and it's in the introduction, but so I certainly made some mistakes and I was in a situation in high school that I needed to get out of and it was I needed money to do it. And I also realized, so I didn't, I grew up in Indianapolis, great town etc but it was not for me and i wanted to go to college. And go live in the big city. Those were my Indiana dreams. And I realized from a very young age that if I was going to get away, I needed to have some money. And so my intention was to, my parents were very international. I wanted to join the foreign service. Caitlin [00:08:57] Mm-hmm. Sheila [00:08:58] And studied political science, etc. But I did my junior year abroad in Japan. I was in Tokyo and the junior year broad program had a lot of kids from Ivy League schools whose parents worked on Wall Street. So I had started reading Wall Street Journal when I was pretty young in college but I didn't kind of make that connection until I moved abroad and met all these other kids and they were going to go work on Wall And that's when I started, I'm like, so what's that? Caitlin [00:09:28] What is well Sheila [00:09:29] And so I started to learn about it and I thought oh I can Live in exciting places. I want you know the Foreign Service. I wanted to live abroad do something Intellectually interesting etc. I could work on Wall Street live abroad or work abroad travel internationally Make a really good salary and have a choice of the places I wanted it to live think about you know, the Foreign service you join and they you could be in Timbuktu too, right? You don't get assigned to Paris. Caitlin [00:09:59] Yes, certainly not as your first assignment, too. Sheila [00:10:04] So I started to learn about this thing called Wall Street and took a lot more business classes, for example, when I went back on my senior year and I got my first job out of college through my career center, but I really wanted to get this Wall Street job. So I moved to New York after college and over the next few years, I started figure out what that was. And it was a very... It was not an easy journey. I went to Indiana University, not a top recruiting school for anyone. And and I didn't know anyone when I moved to New York. So I really had to pave my own way, I guess. And it took me a few years to get that first job. And, you know, I worked really hard to get that first. So that's how I went from, you know, sort of being this person in Indiana who had dreams of living in New York City. But also thinking, oh, like, that's where smart people were going back then is they were going to go work on Wall Street, just like today. If you're smart, you want to go work in tech and AI. Back then, you wanted to work on Wall Street this mythical place. And so that was very much a goal of mine is to, to get there, figure out how to get there. And I finally got my chance. And it was, and I wanted to be financially independent. I more than anything, I wanted to Be the boss of myself. And I wanted to be financially independent and I figured out that this was a place where I could paid well and I could be, I could make my own chances. Caitlin [00:11:40] I love that. Sara is also from the Midwest and worked in the bond market. I'd like to create a safe space for you guys to talk in a language I don't understand. And I'll just sit here. Sara [00:11:53] That's okay, that's not the purpose of this podcast, right? And it's not that purpose of Sheila's book, so. But I have to ask, where in the Midwest? I grew up in Maringo, Illinois, which is a town between Chicago and Rockford in Northern Illinois. I can picture it already. I know, I can, yeah. Like in Indiana, Indianapolis, special place in my heart, just a couple Midwestern girls making their way in the world, in the World of Money. Caitlin [00:12:21] We're going to start singing Dolly Parton. Well, Sheila, right. I saw you as the moderator of this panel. And also, that was the night that I learned that you had a book coming out. And I want to read the title, because of course, I was like, ding, ding. I was a heat-seeking missile after the panel discussion was over. I'm like, I will get her on our podcast. So it's time to talk A Woman's Guide to Navigating Money Conversations by Sheila Schroeder. So, you know, that evening was a taste of what I could see that was like a real underlying passion for you about supporting women having money conversations. And I know we share that. That's been sort of the underlying passion for this podcast as well. I was curious for you, through your work, how you started to think like, oh, women are not talking about money or women need extra support to talk about money, like how that came on your radar since for you, you know, you had been working in money for so many years. So how did you start noticing that was a little bit different than the maybe more common women's experience. Sheila [00:13:35] I'd say almost from the beginning, people would say to me, oh, well, I'm not sure you want to put this on the podcast. We do. Oh, we do that. Oh, well. For sure. You know, I mean, you're so smart. You must know a lot about money and or oh my gosh, I don't know anything. It just seems so intimidating. Um, so many reasons why they didn't they didn't know about it. They didn't talk about it They were intimidated Shame. I'm so ashamed. I don't know more about money. Yeah and um First of all, I don't think you have to be so smart It's not like you have you have a higher iq to understand how to manage your money Um, and I I think that's a disservice to all of us, right? Yeah. Um So number one, right from the beginning, people would say to me, oh, I don't, I don't know anything. You must know so much. I don't know that much. Um, I also realized that even though I worked in finance, didn't mean I knew much about personal finance. Yes. And I write in my book how when I was 27, I got laid off market forces. I got laid off. I didn't have an emergency fund. I just didn't. I must have missed the class that day on Caitlin [00:14:53] There is no class, we're just all supposed to figure out on our own. Sheila [00:14:57] Exactly. We're all supposed to like ether, right? So I had been very diligent about a 401k plan I did save in a 401 K. I knew I shouldn't spend more than I made I was pretty good, but I didn't have an emergency fund So I got laid off and I'm sure I got some severance some unemployment. But as we all know that doesn't Necessarily cover you need some emergency savings, right so I had to cash out my 401 K plan Caitlin [00:15:25] UGH Sheila [00:15:28] right? One of my bigger financial mistakes. And what I learned is and it was stressful. It was stressful as hell, right? And so I realized then I had to get up to speed on personal finance. That was sort of my beginning of my journey there. But over and over, I've had people say to me, Oh, you know, we Midwesterners, we don't talk about money. Or, oh gosh, I'm English. English people don't talk about money. Or, I have green hair. You know, green haired people don't talk about money. All kinds of reasons why we don't talk about money. And I often say that we also don't talk about sex, and there are all kinds of negative consequences because we don't Caitlin [00:16:20] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sheila [00:16:22] And fortunately, we are talking about sex more, but we're still not talking about money as much as we need to. It's still very much a taboo subject. And so that is one reason our firm is doing more money, women in money wealth series and having that conversation. And I think what was so powerful in that room that night, Caitlin, is that we had 85 women in that room and we created a sense of confidentiality. And we were really authentic with each other we had young women in their older women in there and we were sharing stories about the things we didn't know without any shame yeah. And so it has been a mission of mine easily for the last ten years since i moved into private well. To. Talk more about it, get people to be in conversation about money for girlfriends to get together. And I always say you can have a money conversation without talking numbers. Absolutely. What does that look like? Well, for example, let's say Sara, do you have any kids? I do. I have two girls. Okay. And Caitlin, I know you have a daughter. And so let's say you're trying to figure out how much allowance, no. Let's say, you're tryna figure out, yeah, how much allowances you're gonna pay them, right? Or give them. And on one hand, you could say, you know, I'm tryna figure, my kids are old enough, I'm trying to figured out like how to figure out the allowance number. Do you give your kids an allowance? And chances are, one of you will say yes or no, et cetera. Oh, you know, would you be comfortable maybe sharing what you think is a reasonable amount? Not what you do. You don't have to tell me your number. But what do you think it's a reasonable amount for my five-year-old? Or what do think is reasonable amount for an 18-year old? I'm not asking you how much money you are giving your kid. I'm asking you, what do you think's a reasonable amount? Could we have a conversation about that? And I might come away, like for example, I was at dinner with a friend and we were talking about allowance and she asked, and she said, oh, I give my kid X amount, but he's a kid living in New York City and it's a more expensive place where my child was going to school in Maine, which is a lot less expensive. So maybe their allowances would be different. But it was a valuable conversation because I thought, oh, yeah, that sounds like a lot, but not if you're a kid in New York, where my child in Maine, that was an appropriate number for her. Caitlin [00:19:11] I love that you're bringing this up because I was just delivered this by my daughter last paid February 2024 total and she, she has dedicated herself to putting a third and save spend and give, but I was delivered this invoice because I do not, I cannot track what her and I don't even know what her allowance. I mean, I shouldn't reveal this on the podcast, but she is tracking it and she is submitting these invoices. Sara [00:19:40] I mean, hold on. I just want to say, Caitlin, gold star, that your child is tracking her own money. I know that you have had conversations with her for many, many years since I've known you. And now she understands taking responsibility for your own wealth building, even though it means you're a little derelict in your duties, but that's not the point. Caitlin [00:20:04] I'm like the terrible employer that's like, you'll get paid, don't bother me about it. She has weeks not paid, 76. Sheila [00:20:16] How incredible. Kudos, right? And I think something like that. So I literally talk about that in the book. Make it automated so it drops into her account. Caitlin [00:20:28] Yeah, I'm like, well, if you can't do the math, you must not need the money, sweetie. But setting up systems because Sheila the point I take from what you're doing is if I had set up systems at her age To auto deduct to have that it would be i'd be in a completely different place than I am now Right if I have had that system, so I really take your point Sheila [00:20:52] And here's the thing that I'm loving about being on podcasts and talking to other women about this, is what I hope in this conversation is somebody else hears this conversation and they hear the three of us talking about it and they here you say, oh, my kid is doing this. And you're like, oh my God, I've been so derelict. There are so many other women who are derelict out there too. But then if I say something like, oh, let's automate it. They're like oh yeah, that's a solution. I hadn't thought about it. And so if we're talking about money and we're saying, you can talk about money without giving numbers, then it starts to, and I say to people, just because I'm, let's say, so someone said to me, oh, I'm comfortable, I'll tell you what I spend on this. And I said to this person, please don't tell me, because it may make me uncomfortable. I don't need to have that information. You know how people are like, oh, I'll tell you what I make or what I spent on this. And I'm like, I don't need to know. What we're talking about is strategies. And one of the things you asked me about my journey, many years ago, I went on a hike in Tennessee Valley in Marin with a friend of mine, portfolio manager, been in the business forever. And she said to me, she's like, are you on track to retire comfortably? At some certain point. And I was like, Oh, I'm usually the person asking this question said, why do you ask? And she said, Well, I you know, I think I am. But I'd love to understand, you know, we're peers in the business. Caitlin [00:22:27] Yeah Sheila [00:22:27] And she said, what are some of the choices you've made? How have you thought about your retirement investment? And we walked along for like two hours talking about like the kind of money messages we got from home, why we both got into the business, how we'd managed our portfolios. And we had done different things, but we had kind of arrived at the same goal. And it was so, she said to me, she says, Makes me feel less alone that I could talk to you about this because I don't ever talk about this with anyone else. Caitlin [00:23:03] I think, I love your comparison about sex. And I think maybe our first episode ever was why is money harder to talk about than sex? Yeah, I think that might've been it. Episode one. I think I had forgotten about, and the kind of intimate conversations, private, difficult, we can, things about ourselves we can share with our friends in some realms doesn't necessarily translate to this one. And yet that isolation. Also kind of escalates our feelings of shame and like we're the only ones that have made these big mess ups and we're late And everybody else's has it together Sheila [00:23:42] Well, another big part that I talk about is money dates. Oh, I want to hear more about this. Okay, I've heard people, I heard stats that say one of the top three reason people get divorced is because they fight about money. I'm not sure what the other two, but I'm sure sex is fine. But that I can't help you. But so a money date. So we come from different. Everybody has different money backgrounds. My partner has a different money background. I have a different many background. And let's say you're in a partnership with someone. And one person comes from a very frugal background. And the other person comes form a very spendthrift background. And let say you feel like you're on a bunch of things. But for example, you are ready to buy a new car. So the person who's from a very frugal background might say, let's just get a Prius that'll work or whatever, right? Inexpensive car where the person, who is from a more money confident background, maybe says, or is more spendthrift might say oh, let us get the Maserati. Let us and let us assume they can afford the Maserati. Okay. Okay, for this. Example, but it really stresses out the the frugal person like why would why would we we don't need a Maserati, right? Mm-hmm see how that could be that a source of tension. Yeah, and there's so many other scenarios So I say why don't you have a money date bring it together Talk about why you think of Prius would work why you thinking Maseratis important But the whole idea is that couples come together and they often almost always come from different money backgrounds So finding a safe place where you can talk about a money issue. The other thing I talk a lot about, and I know this will resonate with you is in every relationship, one person does more laundry. One person tends to take out the garbage more. Somebody does more cooking. Yeah. Well, if those people leave your life, you can probably figure out how to feed yourself. But if the person who's been doing the financial housekeeping leaves the picture, it's a very steep learning curve. Yeah. So how, and often, that person who is managing the money doesn't necessarily have more information. They just said, I'll do it. Oh, that's interesting. Right? Come on, I'm sure this happens to you all the time. Absolutely. The person who steps forward. Um, doesn't necessarily know more at all, but they've put up their hand and said, I'll do it. And so then what happens is we see the other person in the relationship, which often is women who are just not engaged at all. And so part of my book about money conversations is to say to your spouse, honey, you've been managing the money all this time. I'd love to get more involved. Honey might say, why do you want to do that? Don't you trust me or no, no, you wouldn't understand which we know is not true. Yeah, we can understand. So having money dates encouraging an organized way to have a conversation with each other, you know, keep it to an hour have an agenda make it kind of fun. Set up a cadence that works for you. That is a way to start creating a money conversation within a partnership that can be very powerful and not intimidating. Caitlin [00:27:27] I think in my, I'm a mediator and a divorce coach that that's less relevant. And I think I have seen a lot of situations where there are only a partnership, whether it's business partners or spouses or whatever, talk about the issue when there's a big decision to make and they haven't kind of laid out the foundation. To even understand the differences before then. So if you're in that Maserati Prius conversation and you've never really talked about your values before, you are just set up for a much more stressful, divisive encounter than if you had had these money dates. I love this idea where before you get to that big car decision, you've already understood like, hey, these issues are heavier for me than they are for you. What's a way we can talk about it? What's the, maybe it's a compromise. Maybe it's in every other. What system works for us? And having money dates in place means that you, it's sort of like not going grocery shopping when you're hungry. I don't know if that connection makes sense. But like making a plan, understanding each other better so that when you are having the money conversations, your association isn't like, we're gonna have a huge argument and I'm either gonna win or I'm gonna lose. Of course you'd avoid that conversation if you're afraid of losing, but if it's in the like culture of your partnership that like we check in to understand each other better, you're set up a little bit better when there is a big difference. Sheila [00:29:03] And the other thing, you can do this when you're in college, too. Like, I encourage, you know, you don't have to be married. You don't to be living together. I'll give an example of a young woman who was dating someone in college who had had a great internship, had a lot of money in the bank, and they'd go out to dinner, and they split the cost. He had a lot more money because he'd had an injury and she had less and so she was happy to split the cost but it was a lot of more impact for her and we talked about it and she went to her boyfriend and said, hey, this is what's going on with me. I love doing this but if we're going to go to the expensive restaurant, I this all I can afford. Caitlin [00:29:46] Mm. Yeah. Sheila [00:29:47] He appreciated it. She felt empowered. And like, oh my gosh, if all of us were doing that from the time we're 20, 21, think what that trajectory looks like in terms of feeling comfortable advocating for yourself about your finances. Caitlin [00:30:07] Yeah. And every group vacation she'll ever take for the rest of her life. Will he be that much more enjoyable because she'll have practice talking about like, Hey, here's my budget. I'd love to join. What does that look like for everybody? I want to know what the other chapters are in your book. Like what are these money talks that you're giving people advice and support? You can, you can cheat and look at your table of contents. I should say the book isn't out yet by when we're interviewing you, when does it get released? Sheila [00:30:38] It's coming out at the end of December, at the of this December. It's available for pre-order at Amazon. Caitlin [00:30:45] I was gonna say, okay, on Amazon. Sheila [00:30:47] And anyone who's written a book knows pre-orders are everything. And our target is the end of December because frankly that's when everybody fights. They spent so much money and typically I thought let's the idea is that this is a book you're going to buy in December and read in January. So yes, it's coming out at the end of December. It's available for preorder on Amazon and I would appreciate it if everyone pre orders it. So, Caitlin, the first five chapters are about the foot. Five fundamentals you need to know. So the first five chapters are budget, investment, retirement, debt, and savings. And it also talks about philanthropies with charitable giving and political giving. I often say that women give to causes, but if they believe in a cause, they need to figure out the political tether and give to that and, you know, support candidates that support their causes. So, the first 5 chapters are about the mentals so that... You can have those conversations which i cover in the second half of the book so it's written in a way that i hope is very accessible i try not to have hardly any jargon in it and it is a book that whether you're 21 or 35 or 55 it will have meaning for you and it will be doable and then the last chapters are how to talk to your kids about money Caitlin [00:32:16] Yeah Sheila [00:32:16] how to talk to your spouse about money, how to talk to you parents, how many times, I'm sure this has happened to both of you, where do your parents need help or do you need help from your parents? Do your parents who don't want to talk about it, how do you get them to open the door and have that conversation? So there's chapters on legacy and death. And and why it matters to have that conversation before you die and how and i give real stories so every chapter begins with some story someone i know whose husband passed away suddenly and she was not prepared and what her journey was or you're getting divorced i often say if you're getting divorced don't tell anyone go find don't Tell your spouse that you want to divorce Don't tell any of your friends because you don't want people to gossip Instead, go find a family law attorney, pay a consultation fee, take notes and understand what it could mean for you. Go find a financial advisor and have a consultation. And that way you'll have a lot more information about what the impact could be and is this something you want to do and if you do, what's it going to mean for you and your family. So there's a chapter on divorce. I try to make it clear that this is not necessarily a book on financial advice. It's about financial conversations and everybody's life is different. So please consult a financial advisor or an attorney as needed. So it's. It's 13 chapters. The first five are the fundamentals. The last eight are about different things in your life, your partner, your parents, your siblings, etc. Sara [00:33:57] I'm wondering what do you think are some of the easiest places to start with money conversations, and then what do see as the very most difficult money conversations to have with someone? Sheila [00:34:13] The easiest, I think, is to start with a friend, right? Your best friend, for example, might be a good start. And the way I would set it up is, Sara, you know, I'm kind of curious about this money stuff. I don't really do a lot of it because my spouse does it all. Could I have a conversation with you and I don't want to know any numbers but I'm just wondering could we like could we talk about money and chances are you might say well what do you mean and and my response would be I just realize I don t know as much as I would like to but I would Like to know more and I'm Just kind of trying to figure it out and you seem to really have your act together on this and you might say, well, not really. Or, yes I do, right? But then it opens the door where you might say, you know what, no one's ever asked me that, but I'm kind of curious too. And you might yes, or you might no, but asking one of your best friends and saying, you know, I'm just curious about this stuff. I read this book and people are talking about it. And I realize I'd like to know more. I think that's a really easy place. Start with a friend you trust. Yes. And the opening line is I'd like to know more and I wondered if we could talk about it. How do you feel about that? Caitlin [00:35:42] Yeah, and I love the way that sets it up. It's not that your friend is necessarily an expert. It's sort of like, I want to do this thing that's really intimidating with me. And can we just talk, like, where do you fall on this? And so they might not be interested at all, or they might know more than you do, or less than you. But it's just a conversation with someone that you trust to announce, like. This is something I want to delve into, and I'm really just trying to put words to this desire, and I am not sure where it's gonna take me, but can I share that with you? Sheila [00:36:19] Yeah. The other thing, so I have a call to action in the book, which is, so how do we continue the conversation in a way that feels safe or good? And my call to action is the idea, you know, you've read the book. You're like, oh, this all makes sense. Now what do I do? What about starting a money book club? Oh, I love that. Caitlin [00:36:42] But wait for it. There's a there's a twist here everybody. I'm just remembering this. This isn't what you expect Sheila [00:36:50] it, Sheila. It's not about reading the Wall Street Journal or a big heavy financial book. Why not read a novel? Why not read The Great Gatsby or Gentlemen in Moscow or any number of books. Trust is another one that came out. If you read any of those books they all have a money thread in them. And it's a way to get together with a group of friends. I always say Vegas rules with, you know, confidentiality is important. It's you know how you're driving in the car and you're and your kids sitting next to you and you have the best conversations because you're not actually looking at each other one-on-one. That's what I think a money book club can be as you get together a group of like-minded friends. It's a book club. You're reading novels. But what you're focusing on is what is the money story in this in this? And I mean, I don't know how many people have read Vanity Fair, but there's a character in there, Becky Sharp, who is known as this sharp edged, conniving woman. But if you read it through a money lens, what are the choices did she have? So talking and how many women do we know who are also in that position? They don't have a lot of choices. They are. So what are they doing to take care of themselves or the people they love? And so I think reading these... Novels and talking about protagonist is a very safe way to talk about an issue that might be scary to you or interesting to you and you're not talking i'm not talking about me i'm talking about you we're talking about becky sharp yeah yeah right. I had a way to build knowledge. Caitlin [00:38:45] And it's a reminder that the knowledge that will be helpful for us in planning our financial future isn't like learning rocket science. It's not like learning something that's so far, it's using our intuition and our experience to tell stories and to understand things about the world through seeing those patterns and strategies. Those are all the tools you need to also plan your financial future. I love this idea of using the novel as the entryway. Sara [00:39:16] I do too, like I love all of the Jane Austen novels. And if you read Pride and Prejudice through a money lens, and you see that Elizabeth Bennet is needing to make this almost like a Sophie's choice type of calculation, right? Do you marry for love? And you might end up super poor, like so poor you can't even feed yourself or your children. Or do you marry for money? Because so often, that was the experience. Almost always, for all women, that was the experienced. And when you consider novels through that lens, it is, like both of you said, it's sharing stories that all of us know inherently as women. And we know them. We learn them through stories, but not necessarily acknowledging that they are money stories as well. Sheila [00:40:14] Yeah, I just, women's super power is building community, right, like we're all about our girlfriends. I'm all about my girlfriends. And when I think of so many things in my life, who's gotten me through? Yeah. My girlfriends. And so building a community, and like, we're really good at that. We know how to build a community. And if you don't have a community it's a great way to build the community. Finding financial empowerment, finding financial education through things like a money book club, you can all start to have the conversation. Hopefully it sparks curiosity. You're reading about, you know, Elizabeth Bennet, what are her choices? What could she have done differently? And for her, there wasn't a lot, but what could I do differently? Today, what my other choices. Or books where somebody gets divorced. You know, if you don't want to go live with your sister, another in Emma, right? We have that scenario. What do I need to do to protect myself if I do get a divorce? Or what do I do if I become a widow? All these things that we can talk about and start to learn about. And I say, let's say somebody in the book gets divorced in the novel. Somebody probably knows a fine, a family law attorney. Let's invite one of our family law attorneys to come speak at our book club. Yes. You were low stakes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Or financial advisor. Oh gosh, there's this, you know, oh, for example, great expectations. PIP. He's his education is being paid by the, by the convict who he helped escape. So you could talk about a five 29 plan. Not available during Dickens' time, but you know what I'm saying is that setting up a money book club is a really low stakes non-confrontational way to talk about money in a comfortable situation without it having to be about I. Caitlin [00:42:30] I think the other piece of that that I really like is that as both we've all experienced and why you are both like, it's so amazing that you're in your jobs and want women to be empowered in this space and educated is that it's very easy for someone like me to be like, I don't know anything about money. I've never been in that world at all. It's also intimidating. If I read a novel when I was 35, or whenever I would have set these things out, and realize, oh, I have made so many money decisions. They just weren't labeled as such. And so I could start seeing like, oh, I had been navigating the financial realities my entire life. I have been making hard choices and doing that. And even though they weren't labeled as like stock investments or like hedge fund, whatever the other like fancy financial terms. I swim in this water and I have figured this out. And so I think associating the kind of like storylines and novels with making financial decisions also empowers us to relabel the things that we've had to decide in our own lives to build confidence. Like actually I am not starting from scratch. I have been navigating all of this. I've just called it something different. And I didn't have like the MBA or CPA terminology. But these are all concepts I actually are native to me in this way that I didn't even know they were. We have taken so much of your time and so I wanna be conscientious of that. But I wanted to check with Sara, did you have any final parting questions or comments for Sheila? Sara [00:44:14] I mean, I think that this has been a brilliant conversation. And I'm so excited that you shared your time with us, Sheila. I am pre-ordering the book now on Amazon in October of 2025. And so I can't wait for it to come out. I just have one more thing. Like if you, like in all of your vast experience, if you could think of one thing that you think every woman could do today or tomorrow to make one positive step on her financial journey, What would it be? Sheila [00:44:44] Fade my book. No, I really mean it. Sara [00:44:49] Because it's from your experience, right? It's distilled from your experiences. Sheila [00:44:56] And use my book as a way to open the door to a money conversation with someone you want to talk to. And don't be afraid. Sara [00:45:09] Do not be afraid, we are all here to talk. We all need to talk, talk to our friends and our parents and our kids and our colleagues. I think that's a wonderful sentiment to end on. Caitlin [00:45:23] Very on brand. Sara [00:45:23] Thank you, Sheila. Caitlin [00:45:25] For us, for you. For us. For everybody. And you. Thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for coming. I'm so glad that I got to see you on that panel and that you agreed to come. And I hope this is the beginning of many more conversations that we're all having about all this. Thank you so Do you have a question about finance or investing? Send it to us in an email or voice memo to our website, womenontheverge.com. Don't worry, Sara will answer it. I won't. Sara [00:46:01] Hey, women on the verge, we want you to know that economic abuse isn't always obvious, but it's a powerful form of control. Maybe a partner limits your access to money, sabotages your work, or racks up debt in your name. If any of this feels familiar, please know you're not alone and support is out there. Learn more at thehotline.org or call 800-799. Caitlin [00:46:26] Our podcast is edited by our co-producer, Kelly West, with music by BadBadHats and Debmo. Speaker 5 [00:46:32] I know, the first thing you notice is that I'm covered in gold The trip of the wrist, it can turn a hot bitch cold Sara [00:46:45] This podcast contains general information that is not suitable for everyone. The information contained herein should not be construed as personalized investment advice. Pass performance is no guarantee of future results. There is no guaranteed that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast will come to pass. Investing in the stock market involves gains and losses and may not be suitable for all investors. Information presented herein is subject to change without notice and should not considered as a solicitation to buy or sell any security.