Adam Tooze

It's a toy.

It's just another ballroom.

It's a toy.

Oh, yeah.

It could not have been clearer about this.

Best credit in the world.

Best.

On the substance, though, of your question, John, about Russia and China,

I mean, this would be, for Putin currently, the greatest disaster in recent history is the collapse of the Soviet Union.

He's spoken about this very eloquently.

I think actually Xi Jinping agrees.

This is one thing that Putin and Xi Jinping agree on, is that the collapse of the Soviet Union between 89 and 91, I thought, this is the center of all of their thinking.

For the Chinese, of course, 89 means not just South Africa and the Berlin Wall, but Tiananmen Square.

But would a disintegration of Europe lead Russia away from China?

It would certainly make Russia less dependent on China and it would open up an incredibly wide field of influence in Europe.

But I don't think there's any reason to think it would squarely... Why would they?

They've just won.

Why would they give something up?

And if energy is the hard core of the Russian regime,

Both oil, which is globally fungible, and gas, which has to be piped in the main for efficiency.