Alastair Campbell

So you've got to do what you believe to be right.

And I don't believe, Nadim...

Oh, him claiming that she was all pro-BLM back in the day and she's contorted her position.

I mean, like, talk about pick the wrong target.

Kemi has been relentless in her opposition to identity politics, about this division staff, about critical race theory, about Black Lives Matter as a political movement, and to try and suggest that she was playing footsie with Black Lives Matter five, six years ago when it was Flavor of the Day, when they were, you know...

Nadeem Zahawi was at a BLM conference, and he was talking about diversity quotas and this kind of stuff.

Well, he was from the Ken Clark stable, so he was from that traditional... I mean, and there's a long-standing tradition... Now he's moved well right of me.

You need to ask him, but I mean, for me, I think there's a lot of frustration there.

I think he...

But look, if you think from his point of view, he grew up in the Ken Clark stable.

I love Ken Clark.

Lots of things I disagree with him about.

but a titan of British politics.

So he kind of grew up in there, very much in line with the David Cameron modernisation project, very much in the slipstream of that agenda.

Did it get him top-tier status?

No, it didn't.

It got him as high as it ought to have got him.

Well, hang on.

Well, I'm not sure he would agree.

I'm sure he wouldn't, but it did.