Alastair Campbell

And what's incredible about all of these people is that they seem to have real trouble with the Pope himself.

being an expert on scripture, but no trouble with Trump posting pictures of himself as Jesus, or frankly, being a deeply unchristian human being.

And the other thing, don't forget, Roy, this all started, this particular...

chapter in this row started when Hexer's deputy in the Pentagon, Elbridge Colby, met the Vatican's US envoy, a guy called Cardinal Christophe Pierre, and warned that the US military had the power to do whatever it wants in the world and the Catholic Church better decide what side it's on.

So it's just a form of the MAGA madness that we've seen.

But there is a method to the madness.

Now, you know, I've been, I think twice now, I did it again with Dominic Sambrook when he stood in for you when you were away in the Galapagos.

And these 14 tenets, if you like, of fascism that are posted up in the Holocaust Museum in Washington.

Number eight.

Religion and government are intertwined.

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion.

Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed.

to the government's policies or actions.

And maybe that's where you can pick up on the just war, because that's what has taken this to the next stage of this route.

And also, bear in mind that Pete Hexeth has said, I think this is what must have provoked, in part, provoked the Pope into feeling he had to speak out, when he said this is a war for Jesus.

And that goes back to what we talked about in a previous episode about George Bush, I think, genuinely made a mistake when he said, you know, about the crusade, this is a crusade.

You have to be very, very careful with the language.

And I think the MAGA people, the Hexers, the Vances, the Trumps, they are being careful with their language in that they're being very, very deliberate about this.

And I do think it relates to basically saying there is only one power in this country and it is Donald Trump and it is those who follow Donald Trump.

I don't think the Jesus thing was a mistake.