Alex Wagner

Well, at risk of sounding like a fan of the strategy, they're also...

They don't give a shit.

They just say it and they do it.

And I think probably there's a lesson in there as we began this conversation talking about the hand-wringing by some elected Democrats in the context of a shutdown.

It's like, you know, Trump has taught the country that you can be very declarative and very explicit.

Keep caring, but care less about the response.

I'm going to take hope in the idea that Roxane Gay has found something to celebrate in American political life, which is someone taking a big swing out there.

That makes me feel good at the end of the conversation.

These are extraordinary circumstances.

Well, you know, I applaud you for the sort of courage to be out there and to take the risks and to write eloquently and very compellingly about stuff that's pretty complicated and disheartening.

Like I said, I just think the piece, well, all of your writing is worth reading.

But the most recent one was incredibly provocative and really made me think.

Oh, thank you.

I'm really appreciative that you could take some time to chat with us all about it.

Thanks for your time.

Of course.

Thank you for having me, Alex.

And I'm Alex Wagner.

Oh, huge.

I mean, listen, I can't make it unless it's a big show.