Alex Wagner

I mean, does that square or am I overthinking it?

Well, the government is shut down.

I mean, in fairness, they did, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer didn't play ball and we are in a government shutdown, right?

The question is what happens next?

And I think to your point,

it's unclear why they did it, right?

They haven't been saying explicitly why they did it.

There is a conversation happening about healthcare and its affordability, and I think that's inherently in service of democratic goals, but there's no ownership of the fight.

And what I'm hearing from you is like, own the fight because the times demand battle.

Not murderous battles, but new tactics and new strategies.

Well, you write in the article, I keep wondering when we will reach a cultural breaking point, when finally the Trump administration will go far enough to shove us out of the comforts of our day-to-day lives.

I was, again, having this conversation about who has been, I mean, there's a number of people in this country who've been shaken out of their day-to-day lives, not by choice, right?

By force.

Accepting those individuals.

It feels like

If there is grassroots rage, organization, and indignation, it is not being mirrored in the sort of institutional response to all this, which is law firms capitulating, universities saying, okay, what deal can we make for you, with you?

Media companies saying, we'll take them off the air or we'll hire some different people and we'll change the lens of our focus.

How much do you think that institutional civility, if you will, is undermining a real citizen-led uncivility?

Or do you think the citizens still have – I mean, how do you see the landscape as it stands in terms of reaching that breaking point?

What things have you chosen?