Alistair Campbell

Can I just throw on Kingsmill?

Look, just to return to the thing, because I think one of the weird things about this whole crisis is it's partly about how America, our ally, can do much more harm to us than our adversaries.

Secondly, it's about how none of us have any leverage over Trump.

And we're all talking in the world of AI and sovereignty about how we get leverage over the United States.

This is the classic example.

The whole world wants him to change his position.

China, Japan, South Korea, Qatar, Saudi, Dubai, Europe.

And none of us are having any impact on him at all.

We don't appear to have any leverage over the US to force him to change direction in any way at all.

But the third thing is that it's about moving out of a world where we thought...

that real stuff didn't matter so much, where oil and gas was less important, where we were in a world of kind of digital and renewables.

And we've sort of been forcibly reminded of something that Kingsmill Bond, of course, understands, but he's not being completely honest about when he's saying to you that, yeah, renewables can power your electricity, but renewables are not going to give you your NAFTA, your petrochemical products that you actually need for your plastics, your rubbers, etc.

There's solvents for your dyes.

They might one day.

Look, there's also a short-term, medium-term, long-term problem.

Our national security threat at the moment is our planes need jet fuel.

Our trucks need diesel.

They don't run on renewables.

They might do in 15, 20 years' time.

I'm a bit sceptical about how quickly we're going to fly planes with renewables, but it may happen.