Alistair Campbell

And what's at the heart of it?

Is it a sense of personal loss?

Is it that populists are the only ones who acknowledge what has been lost?

And of course, as we see with all the false promises they make, that they're promising to return it all.

Or is it just kind of pure rebellion that people don't like the establishment, whatever that means, don't like elites, whatever that means, and voting for these right-wing populists is a way of kind of rebelling against that.

So I've been thinking about this for many, many years.

I've been talking about it on the podcast with Rory.

And then a few weeks ago, I got sent a book.

by the Labour MP, Liam Byrne.

The title says it all, why populists are winning and what we can do to beat them.

And Liam Byrne, he was a minister in the Labour government, which I worked for, and his book really unpicks a lot of this.

So I thought, why not get him in and have a long chat about what this is all about?

And so

It's in two parts.

And in this first part, we're really just going to try and start to unpick it all.

So here we go.

Part one of our mini series on populism with Liam Byrne MP.

Let's just work out where it all come from.

You seem to think that the global financial crisis is the big driver.

Why?