Alistair Campbell

Work that one out and I'll see you at question time when we'll talk about Hungary.

We'll also talk a bit closer to home about the upcoming Scottish, Welsh and local elections and lots more.

See you then.

See you then.

Bye bye.

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Hi there, and welcome to The Rest is Politics with just me, Alistair Campbell.

We're doing something a bit different today.

Pretty much most weeks in the four years we've done this podcast, Rory and I probably use the word populism, and we've talked anxiously about the growing influence of populist leaders and populist appeal,

all around the world.

And I really wanted to get right to the bottom of why people do seem to feel such a pull towards leaders that, frankly, Rory and I both see as charismatic charlatans.

People like Trump, people like Farage, people like Orban in Hungary, and then even the ones that have been found out, like Bolsonaro and Boris Johnson.

There's still the kind of, oh, well, you know, they're quite this, they're quite that, they're quite funny, they get things done, which is nonsense.

And so what's it all about?

And also, what does it mean?

I think the word populism itself needs a bit of kind of exploration and understanding.

But above all, how do progressives, Democrats call them what you want?

How do we counter it?