Alistair Campbell

do they see as the potential solver of their problems, something like Trump, who is a kind of inherited wealth millionaire, who you just look and hear the guy and you say, this is not a guy who cares about working people.

This is a guy, and we're seeing this in his second term, who cares about himself and his family and his wealth and his power and his fame, and that's about it.

Why do they look to somebody like Farage?

Why did they look to somebody like Johnson as a kind of old Etonian media establishment figure to be the person that they suddenly believe in to address those problems?

Yeah.

He is the rich and powerful and he's feeding the rich and powerful.

Do you think it's possible that we could go even further back in terms of where this all stemmed from, that actually...

If you go back to Seattle and globalization and, I mean, our friend Scaramucci, Anthony Scaramucci, has got a book coming out in the autumn and it's called All the Wrong Moves.

And the first of the All the Wrong Moves, one of them is the reaction to the crash.

But the first one was actually letting China in to the World Trade Organization.

Do you remember, we were in government and we were thinking, oh, this is just a bunch of hippies joining together with the trade unions and they don't understand globalization is going to help them as well.

No, we thought it was an unalloyed good, didn't we?

Exactly.

So in a way, that was a way where a lot of working class people

maybe did know better than we did because they saw the downside of globalization and the inequality that you're talking about has got so much worse.

Because the other thing that we see now, these unbelievably wealthy people in our country, in Europe, in America.

Do you think that might've been a driver of it?

This is when you were his number two at the treasury.

Yeah, that is the big change, I think, from previous periods of economic discontent.

It's this sense of hopelessness that they're ever going to get a fair deal.