Alistair Campbell

He said that in those terms when we interviewed him.

And I think what you saw in that speech was him bringing together a thinking that he's been developing ever since he ran for office.

But I think what's fascinating is whether the middle powers, as they're called, which includes us, which includes France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Canada, some of the Latin American countries as well, is whether they respond to that, and if so, how.

And there's a very interesting example this week, I thought.

Not necessarily as eye-catching as stuff on defense or cyber or misinformation or whatever, but this agreement that the UK has made with eight other European countries about energy.

They're all doing this giant wind farm, giant wind farms.

And of course, one of Trump's great schticks at Davos was constantly on about windmills.

Went on for about 15 minutes.

I mean, he's just in this droning on about, and this lie, one of his many lies, China manufactures them, but doesn't use them.

Yes, you said they sell them to the stupid countries, Britain, France, Germany.

So there's yet another insult.

So that was an example that Ed Billiband was in Hamburg, I think it was, and signed this deal with Germany, Holland, Netherlands, Norway, others.

And so they're going to share the production.

and then share the use of electricity produced by wind.

But then I think if you look at stuff like defence, I mean...

We were talking to some people out there who were making the point that we talk about our independent nuclear deterrent.

Now, France has a genuinely independent nuclear deterrent.

We don't.

We are reliant on America for firing these missiles, for servicing these missiles.

So would we, in part of this Mark Carney middle power, actually think about