Anand Giridharadas

It's a very unequal world.

This kind of power is unjust.

She talked about when she thinks about how that family fortune was made, including cigarettes and other things, she feels sick to her stomach.

Sometimes people thank her for philanthropic gifts.

She feels bad because she thinks about in that moment where the money came from.

But she also said, look, we are here now.

The best I can do is give things away, try to be a good person.

But look, and she said, it's very striking, she said at the end of that section I had with her, that at the end of the day, it's hard to convince someone like me to give up power.

So then I said, how do you change this kind of thing?

How could this kind of thing ever change?

And her words were, revolution, maybe.

I'm not encouraging any particular approach here,

But I think it's revealing that someone in the heart of that world ultimately is like, it's very difficult to ask us to be different from the way we are when this is the power distance, when these are the incentives, when this is the way politics works.

It's very, very difficult to get people to behave contrary to the way the system is encouraging them to behave and allowing them to behave.

What do you make of it?

You know, there's been this whole attempt by people who were caught up in various levels and durations of friendship with Epstein to... The only defense is, I didn't know.

I met him after this point, or I only met him here.

I didn't know.

But what the birthday book shows, and you just read one, Donald Trump's, but there was messages like this from various people.

A lot of people.