Andrea Gunning
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 4 one week ahead of everyone else, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 4 one week ahead of everyone else, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
No. How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
No. How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi guys, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all season four, a story of a cop and his double life. I wanted to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of Betrayal season one, two, three, and Betrayal Weekly, and every single episode of Betrayal season four, ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hi guys, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all season four, a story of a cop and his double life. I wanted to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of Betrayal season one, two, three, and Betrayal Weekly, and every single episode of Betrayal season four, ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 4 one week ahead of everyone else. Available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 4 one week ahead of everyone else. Available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi guys, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all season four, a story of a cop and his double life. I wanted to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of Betrayal season one, two, three, and Betrayal Weekly, and every single episode of Betrayal season four, ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hi guys, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all season four, a story of a cop and his double life. I wanted to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of Betrayal season one, two, three, and Betrayal Weekly, and every single episode of Betrayal season four, ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 4 one week ahead of everyone else, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
No. How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi guys, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all season four, a story of a cop and his double life. I wanted to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of Betrayal season one, two, three, and Betrayal Weekly, and every single episode of Betrayal season four, ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 4 one week ahead of everyone else. Available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi guys, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all season four, a story of a cop and his double life. I wanted to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of Betrayal season one, two, three, and Betrayal Weekly, and every single episode of Betrayal season four, ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I fucking love the way he writes.
I fucking love the way he writes.
He knew I was, but he didn't know how much. Yeah. Not my job to figure that out for him.
He knew I was, but he didn't know how much. Yeah. Not my job to figure that out for him.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amazing stuff.
Amazing stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Daddy! Daddy!
Daddy! Daddy!
But they're dicks. Fuck them.
But they're dicks. Fuck them.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
His wins. Yeah.
His wins. Yeah.
Yeah, like... Who would be doing well after this?
Yeah, like... Who would be doing well after this?
Yeah, they just dismantled it.
Yeah, they just dismantled it.
God damn.
God damn.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
He's got plot armor. Yes, he's the main character.
He's got plot armor. Yes, he's the main character.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We figured it out. It was fine. Our friends came.
We figured it out. It was fine. Our friends came.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
No. How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
No. How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing. No.
She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing. No.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1. I just knew him as a kid. Long, silent voices from his past came forward.
Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1. I just knew him as a kid. Long, silent voices from his past came forward.
And they had secrets of their own to share.
And they had secrets of their own to share.
I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it.
I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it.
I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.
I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.
I never expected to find myself in this place. Now, I need to tell you how I got here.
I never expected to find myself in this place. Now, I need to tell you how I got here.
Bone Valley Season 2. Jeremy.
Bone Valley Season 2. Jeremy.
Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad-free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.
Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad-free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1.
Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1.
Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1.
I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.
I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.
Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.
I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.
Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing. No.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1. I just knew him as a kid. Long, silent voices from his past came forward.
And they had secrets of their own to share.
I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it.
I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.
I never expected to find myself in this place. Now, I need to tell you how I got here.
Bone Valley Season 2. Jeremy.
Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad-free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1.
I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.
Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.
Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
No. How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I fucking love the way he writes.
He knew I was, but he didn't know how much. Yeah. Not my job to figure that out for him.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amazing stuff.
Yeah.
Daddy! Daddy!
But they're dicks. Fuck them.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
His wins. Yeah.
Yeah, like... Who would be doing well after this?
Yeah, they just dismantled it.
God damn.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
He's got plot armor. Yes, he's the main character.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Yeah.
We figured it out. It was fine. Our friends came.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, Betrayal family. It's Andrea Gunning. I want to introduce you to a new weekly true crime show that our team at Glass Podcast has just launched. It's called American Homicide and is hosted and produced by my colleague Sloane Glass, who I have here today. Hi, Sloane. Hi, Andrea. You guys may not know this, but Sloane worked on season two of Betrayal, so she's very...
Hi, Betrayal family. It's Andrea Gunning. I want to introduce you to a new weekly true crime show that our team at Glass Podcast has just launched. It's called American Homicide and is hosted and produced by my colleague Sloane Glass, who I have here today. Hi, Sloane. Hi, Andrea. You guys may not know this, but Sloane worked on season two of Betrayal, so she's very...
You know, I think you guys did an incredible job and they were in great hands with you. And I'm so curious, what made you want to take on a project like American Homicide?
You know, I think you guys did an incredible job and they were in great hands with you. And I'm so curious, what made you want to take on a project like American Homicide?
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
You're phenomenal. The storytelling is fantastic. The episodes that I have heard, you are just at every twist and turn, just on the edge of your seat. And I don't doubt that the Betrayal audience is going to love it. So without further ado, here's American Homicide, Father's Day Murders, part one.
You're phenomenal. The storytelling is fantastic. The episodes that I have heard, you are just at every twist and turn, just on the edge of your seat. And I don't doubt that the Betrayal audience is going to love it. So without further ado, here's American Homicide, Father's Day Murders, part one.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
It was Morgan's mentor, the woman who'd been like a second mother to her. Kelsey hadn't spoken to her since that awkward road trip visit years ago. Joanne said she needed to speak with Kelsey.
It was Morgan's mentor, the woman who'd been like a second mother to her. Kelsey hadn't spoken to her since that awkward road trip visit years ago. Joanne said she needed to speak with Kelsey.
Factitious disorder is the official term for Munchausen syndrome, which is when someone fakes being sick for sympathy and attention. Joanne went on to explain.
Factitious disorder is the official term for Munchausen syndrome, which is when someone fakes being sick for sympathy and attention. Joanne went on to explain.
Just as Kelsey was finally feeling in control of her life, she got a Facebook message out of the blue. It was from Joanne, Morgan's mentor. Joanne had uncovered something that she needed to share with Kelsey.
Just as Kelsey was finally feeling in control of her life, she got a Facebook message out of the blue. It was from Joanne, Morgan's mentor. Joanne had uncovered something that she needed to share with Kelsey.
Joanne had met Morgan when Morgan was a college athlete. She'd taken Morgan in when she was going through a hard time with her family. And Joanne was there when Morgan broke her wrist for the first time. When Morgan came back from the hospital in a cast, she told Joanne the doctors had found bone cancer.
Joanne had met Morgan when Morgan was a college athlete. She'd taken Morgan in when she was going through a hard time with her family. And Joanne was there when Morgan broke her wrist for the first time. When Morgan came back from the hospital in a cast, she told Joanne the doctors had found bone cancer.
This all happened before Kelsey ever met Morgan. Now, years later, Joanne was coming to Kelsey with proof that the story they'd both been told was a lie.
This all happened before Kelsey ever met Morgan. Now, years later, Joanne was coming to Kelsey with proof that the story they'd both been told was a lie.
Joanne got medical records that told the real story. What was actually happening?
Joanne got medical records that told the real story. What was actually happening?
It was a bombshell finding. Refusing care and blacklisting someone from a hospital is a very big deal.
It was a bombshell finding. Refusing care and blacklisting someone from a hospital is a very big deal.
But according to the records Joanne had, Morgan didn't get psychiatric care. Instead, she went to summer camp.
But according to the records Joanne had, Morgan didn't get psychiatric care. Instead, she went to summer camp.
After Morgan and Kelsey met, Morgan didn't need Joanne anymore. She had a new caretaker. The tension Kelsey witnessed between Morgan and Joanne when she saw them the last time was real. Joanne was starting to question Morgan's story.
After Morgan and Kelsey met, Morgan didn't need Joanne anymore. She had a new caretaker. The tension Kelsey witnessed between Morgan and Joanne when she saw them the last time was real. Joanne was starting to question Morgan's story.
But now, Joanne had the proof, and the two of them could begin piecing everything together.
But now, Joanne had the proof, and the two of them could begin piecing everything together.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is part two of Kelsey's story. If you haven't heard part one, you should go back and listen to that first. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is part two of Kelsey's story. If you haven't heard part one, you should go back and listen to that first. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
A key component of Morgan pulling off this deception was keeping people isolated from each other. If Kelsey and Joanne were going to find the truth, they needed to connect with other people in Morgan's life.
A key component of Morgan pulling off this deception was keeping people isolated from each other. If Kelsey and Joanne were going to find the truth, they needed to connect with other people in Morgan's life.
Kelsey went back to the very beginning, to the mutual friend who vouched for Morgan at camp.
Kelsey went back to the very beginning, to the mutual friend who vouched for Morgan at camp.
Even parts of the story that Kelsey never questioned before now seemed like they could be lies. Starting with the letter Morgan said she received from the camp director, warning her that her eating disorder was interfering with her job performance.
Even parts of the story that Kelsey never questioned before now seemed like they could be lies. Starting with the letter Morgan said she received from the camp director, warning her that her eating disorder was interfering with her job performance.
Kelsey couldn't believe this fundamental part of their origin story could be fabricated. But the lie was confirmed when she discovered... She had never been hospitalized for an eating disorder.
Kelsey couldn't believe this fundamental part of their origin story could be fabricated. But the lie was confirmed when she discovered... She had never been hospitalized for an eating disorder.
Every new person Kelsey talked to had been told a different story.
Every new person Kelsey talked to had been told a different story.
One lie in particular was extremely difficult for Kelsey to accept.
One lie in particular was extremely difficult for Kelsey to accept.
Kelsey tracked down Morgan's siblings. That's when she learned her family had no idea about Morgan's cancer. And when Morgan told the family she was dating a woman, everyone was accepting of her. So who sent the hate emails?
Kelsey tracked down Morgan's siblings. That's when she learned her family had no idea about Morgan's cancer. And when Morgan told the family she was dating a woman, everyone was accepting of her. So who sent the hate emails?
So much of Kelsey's decision to support Morgan was because she had no family left. They'd all disowned her because she was gay. It was just lie on top of lie.
So much of Kelsey's decision to support Morgan was because she had no family left. They'd all disowned her because she was gay. It was just lie on top of lie.
At the time, all of the intensity felt very real to Kelsey. From the hate emails to Morgan's symptoms, the fatigue, the vomiting. How could Morgan fake all of that?
At the time, all of the intensity felt very real to Kelsey. From the hate emails to Morgan's symptoms, the fatigue, the vomiting. How could Morgan fake all of that?
Almost two years into a marriage with Morgan, a seed of doubt had been planted in Kelsey's mind about her wife's terminal cancer diagnosis. It started when they were home with Kelsey's family for Christmas. Her mom had survived breast cancer. And something about Morgan's behavior wasn't adding up to her.
Almost two years into a marriage with Morgan, a seed of doubt had been planted in Kelsey's mind about her wife's terminal cancer diagnosis. It started when they were home with Kelsey's family for Christmas. Her mom had survived breast cancer. And something about Morgan's behavior wasn't adding up to her.
Morgan didn't come up with the whole plan by herself. She had source material.
Morgan didn't come up with the whole plan by herself. She had source material.
The Fault in Our Stars is a book by John Green that was adapted into a film. It follows two teenagers with terminal cancer. Some of the exact lines from the movie were things Morgan had said to her, like claiming that her cancer scans, quote, lit up like a Christmas tree. Kelsey felt like her relationship had been scripted.
The Fault in Our Stars is a book by John Green that was adapted into a film. It follows two teenagers with terminal cancer. Some of the exact lines from the movie were things Morgan had said to her, like claiming that her cancer scans, quote, lit up like a Christmas tree. Kelsey felt like her relationship had been scripted.
Now that Kelsey had broken open Morgan's lies, she wanted to make sure that there were no remaining ties with her. She discovered there was still one bank account open that they shared. It was an account Kelsey never knew about, but her name was on it. In order to close the account, she had to move the money out of it.
Now that Kelsey had broken open Morgan's lies, she wanted to make sure that there were no remaining ties with her. She discovered there was still one bank account open that they shared. It was an account Kelsey never knew about, but her name was on it. In order to close the account, she had to move the money out of it.
There was $20,000 in this account. all of Morgan's checking and savings.
There was $20,000 in this account. all of Morgan's checking and savings.
So she asked her friends and family what to do.
So she asked her friends and family what to do.
Kelsey had financially supported Morgan for years. When they separated, she took on $60,000 of Morgan's debt. Even after all of that, Kelsey decided to send the money back to Morgan. She was ready to wash her hands of the whole thing.
Kelsey had financially supported Morgan for years. When they separated, she took on $60,000 of Morgan's debt. Even after all of that, Kelsey decided to send the money back to Morgan. She was ready to wash her hands of the whole thing.
After nearly five years, Kelsey was finally free of Morgan and her deception. Liberated from the lies, the financial and emotional burden that she endured, Today, Kelsey thinks back on the innocent woman at Girl Scout camp who walked right into Morgan's web.
After nearly five years, Kelsey was finally free of Morgan and her deception. Liberated from the lies, the financial and emotional burden that she endured, Today, Kelsey thinks back on the innocent woman at Girl Scout camp who walked right into Morgan's web.
Before Morgan, Kelsey had never even heard about abuse in a lesbian relationship.
Before Morgan, Kelsey had never even heard about abuse in a lesbian relationship.
For a long time, Kelsey struggled to tell other people what she went through. Would they believe her? Would they judge her?
For a long time, Kelsey struggled to tell other people what she went through. Would they believe her? Would they judge her?
So how did she not know? Well, the short answer is that she believed a woman she loved. The question used to bother her, but now she understands where it's coming from.
So how did she not know? Well, the short answer is that she believed a woman she loved. The question used to bother her, but now she understands where it's coming from.
When she does tell the story to other people, she notices her own shame.
When she does tell the story to other people, she notices her own shame.
It's a relatable experience. All of us can point to a moment in our lives and cringe at our choices. Kelsey's come to realize shame doesn't work.
It's a relatable experience. All of us can point to a moment in our lives and cringe at our choices. Kelsey's come to realize shame doesn't work.
She's had to reflect on her own part in the relationship, those key moments where she chose to stay with Morgan, even when she knew something wasn't right.
She's had to reflect on her own part in the relationship, those key moments where she chose to stay with Morgan, even when she knew something wasn't right.
Kelsey was at a loss for what to do, but Morgan told her this was just part of the dying process. Her doctors told her to expect it.
Kelsey was at a loss for what to do, but Morgan told her this was just part of the dying process. Her doctors told her to expect it.
Kelsey has cultivated sympathy for the younger version of herself who made those choices. After all, she was acting out of love.
Kelsey has cultivated sympathy for the younger version of herself who made those choices. After all, she was acting out of love.
There's a meta element to Kelsey's story. It was a podcast that helped Joanne and then Kelsey discover the truth.
There's a meta element to Kelsey's story. It was a podcast that helped Joanne and then Kelsey discover the truth.
Kelsey feels like it's come full circle. She's telling her own story now for someone else who needs to hear it. We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
Kelsey feels like it's come full circle. She's telling her own story now for someone else who needs to hear it. We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
Morgan recovered from the hip injury and went back to physical activity.
Morgan recovered from the hip injury and went back to physical activity.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal, P-O-D at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal, P-O-D at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
One day when Morgan was out on a walk, she fell again. And this time, she broke her elbow.
One day when Morgan was out on a walk, she fell again. And this time, she broke her elbow.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The broken bones became a cycle. After her elbow, Morgan broke a rib. She had fallen.
The broken bones became a cycle. After her elbow, Morgan broke a rib. She had fallen.
She came back with x-rays showing her broken rib. The doctors told her to rest. At the time, they lived in an apartment complex and they were friends with their downstairs neighbors. They usually went over every week for game night.
She came back with x-rays showing her broken rib. The doctors told her to rest. At the time, they lived in an apartment complex and they were friends with their downstairs neighbors. They usually went over every week for game night.
There was a cement wall in the back of their apartment complex, and their neighbor had seen Morgan behaving strangely.
There was a cement wall in the back of their apartment complex, and their neighbor had seen Morgan behaving strangely.
Her neighbor saw Morgan throwing herself against a cement wall.
Her neighbor saw Morgan throwing herself against a cement wall.
Kelsey felt like her neighbors were accusing her of lying. And the neighbor's story didn't make any sense. If they saw Morgan falling, why wouldn't they help her?
Kelsey felt like her neighbors were accusing her of lying. And the neighbor's story didn't make any sense. If they saw Morgan falling, why wouldn't they help her?
Regardless of how Morgan had broken her rib, she was clearly injured again. Morgan's doctor recommended she stay physically active. But to Kelsey, this seemed unsafe.
Regardless of how Morgan had broken her rib, she was clearly injured again. Morgan's doctor recommended she stay physically active. But to Kelsey, this seemed unsafe.
Kelsey went on a walk around the block, alone, for the first time in a long time.
Kelsey went on a walk around the block, alone, for the first time in a long time.
Between Morgan's cancer, her constant injuries, working to support them both, and her graduate school program, Kelsey couldn't take it anymore.
Between Morgan's cancer, her constant injuries, working to support them both, and her graduate school program, Kelsey couldn't take it anymore.
That night, Kelsey made up her mind. She was going to transfer schools and move to a new city.
That night, Kelsey made up her mind. She was going to transfer schools and move to a new city.
She was in a frenzy. Before she was even accepted, she made plans to move. Everything in her body was telling her to get away from Morgan.
She was in a frenzy. Before she was even accepted, she made plans to move. Everything in her body was telling her to get away from Morgan.
At the time, she wasn't ready to share her doubts about Morgan's diagnosis with anyone else. I just felt like I didn't have enough evidence of that.
At the time, she wasn't ready to share her doubts about Morgan's diagnosis with anyone else. I just felt like I didn't have enough evidence of that.
Still, her sister's words made her feel horrible. Because of this guilt, Kelsey stayed in touch with Morgan over the phone as much as she could, especially when right after her move, Kelsey needed emergency surgery for her appendix. Now the shoe was on the other foot and Kelsey needed Morgan's support.
Still, her sister's words made her feel horrible. Because of this guilt, Kelsey stayed in touch with Morgan over the phone as much as she could, especially when right after her move, Kelsey needed emergency surgery for her appendix. Now the shoe was on the other foot and Kelsey needed Morgan's support.
While Kelsey was in the hospital recovering, she received a strange text.
While Kelsey was in the hospital recovering, she received a strange text.
The last time she had heard from Morgan's mom was before they'd gotten married. And that was over email. The emails where she called Kelsey the devil. They had never texted.
The last time she had heard from Morgan's mom was before they'd gotten married. And that was over email. The emails where she called Kelsey the devil. They had never texted.
This was at odds with everything Kelsey knew about this woman.
This was at odds with everything Kelsey knew about this woman.
The text from Morgan's mom opened a door to what might be a different reality. She decided not to tell Morgan about it.
The text from Morgan's mom opened a door to what might be a different reality. She decided not to tell Morgan about it.
After Kelsey recovered from surgery, she settled into her new city. She could finally feel the relief of being away from Morgan. The next time they talked, Kelsey asked for a divorce. And to her surprise, Morgan agreed.
After Kelsey recovered from surgery, she settled into her new city. She could finally feel the relief of being away from Morgan. The next time they talked, Kelsey asked for a divorce. And to her surprise, Morgan agreed.
So she let Morgan handle the paperwork. It was clear to both of them that their relationship was over.
So she let Morgan handle the paperwork. It was clear to both of them that their relationship was over.
Kelsey felt intense guilt for leaving Morgan. She'd spent two years taking care of her. She'd seen the broken bones, the nausea, the exhaustion, all of the medications. But the more time Kelsey took for herself, the more she realized Morgan was hiding something. What it was, she didn't know for sure.
Kelsey felt intense guilt for leaving Morgan. She'd spent two years taking care of her. She'd seen the broken bones, the nausea, the exhaustion, all of the medications. But the more time Kelsey took for herself, the more she realized Morgan was hiding something. What it was, she didn't know for sure.
Kelsey tried to move on and put this relationship behind her. She wanted a clean slate.
Kelsey tried to move on and put this relationship behind her. She wanted a clean slate.
Part of that reset was acting like the relationship with Morgan never happened.
Part of that reset was acting like the relationship with Morgan never happened.
While Kelsey was in the middle of her emotional recovery, she got a red envelope in the mail.
While Kelsey was in the middle of her emotional recovery, she got a red envelope in the mail.
Morgan had stopped paying her car payment, so it went to collections.
Morgan had stopped paying her car payment, so it went to collections.
The notices weren't slowing down and the debt was impacting Kelsey's credit.
The notices weren't slowing down and the debt was impacting Kelsey's credit.
Morgan had blocked her, and their divorce still wasn't finalized. So Kelsey decided to take matters into her own hands.
Morgan had blocked her, and their divorce still wasn't finalized. So Kelsey decided to take matters into her own hands.
Morgan told Kelsey with confidence that she had filed for divorce. And Kelsey believed her, trusted her.
Morgan told Kelsey with confidence that she had filed for divorce. And Kelsey believed her, trusted her.
But she had lied. Kelsey's lawyer had the proof. The time Kelsey spent trying to put Morgan behind her now came with a price.
But she had lied. Kelsey's lawyer had the proof. The time Kelsey spent trying to put Morgan behind her now came with a price.
Kelsey hadn't been able to reach Morgan. She had no idea where she was living. But she was clearly still alive, charging credit cards with Kelsey's name on them. So they hired a private investigator to track Morgan down and serve her the paperwork.
Kelsey hadn't been able to reach Morgan. She had no idea where she was living. But she was clearly still alive, charging credit cards with Kelsey's name on them. So they hired a private investigator to track Morgan down and serve her the paperwork.
With the divorce decree in hand, Kelsey believed that Morgan and the chaos that came with her was now truly behind her. She wasn't avoiding it anymore.
With the divorce decree in hand, Kelsey believed that Morgan and the chaos that came with her was now truly behind her. She wasn't avoiding it anymore.
This woman had come to regret her actions and confessed to her husband. She gave her husband access to her computer and all her passwords. She was remorseful about the encounter and took responsibility for her part in it. The woman fully disclosed her actions to her husband and agreed to accompany him to Joel's house. However, as you heard, things didn't go as planned.
This woman had come to regret her actions and confessed to her husband. She gave her husband access to her computer and all her passwords. She was remorseful about the encounter and took responsibility for her part in it. The woman fully disclosed her actions to her husband and agreed to accompany him to Joel's house. However, as you heard, things didn't go as planned.
They, of course, reported him. The woman's story was credible, and when police searched Joel's phone and computer, they found evidence supporting her story. And then they identified another woman Joel had met up with. He planned this one on his work phone. But it seemed like he forgot to delete a few messages from the exchange. This woman had also met Joel on FetLife.
They, of course, reported him. The woman's story was credible, and when police searched Joel's phone and computer, they found evidence supporting her story. And then they identified another woman Joel had met up with. He planned this one on his work phone. But it seemed like he forgot to delete a few messages from the exchange. This woman had also met Joel on FetLife.
Although she was cooperative, she seemed less eager to discuss the encounter. An internal affairs sergeant contacted her by phone.
Although she was cooperative, she seemed less eager to discuss the encounter. An internal affairs sergeant contacted her by phone.
The woman and Joel had talked and texted for several weeks. He had attended a work conference in Denver. After talking online and on the phone, there was an opening to meet up on the way back from the conference. They met in the parking lot of a sporting goods store. But here was the information Internal Affairs was really after.
The woman and Joel had talked and texted for several weeks. He had attended a work conference in Denver. After talking online and on the phone, there was an opening to meet up on the way back from the conference. They met in the parking lot of a sporting goods store. But here was the information Internal Affairs was really after.
Had Joel used his police car to have sex with her, and was it while he was on duty?
Had Joel used his police car to have sex with her, and was it while he was on duty?
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hey guys, before we dive into the episode, we have exciting news. Betrayal is coming to Substack, which is an online community. We're calling our Substack Beyond Betrayal, a place where we dive deeper into the stories you hear on this show.
Hey guys, before we dive into the episode, we have exciting news. Betrayal is coming to Substack, which is an online community. We're calling our Substack Beyond Betrayal, a place where we dive deeper into the stories you hear on this show.
Despite Joel's adamant denials, it appeared he had, in fact, had sex in his police vehicle during work hours. CSPD conducted a full investigation. Internal Affairs even ordered a forensic analysis of the car's interior. They determined that the complaint was true. Joel had been having sex with women in his police car, in public, on company time.
Despite Joel's adamant denials, it appeared he had, in fact, had sex in his police vehicle during work hours. CSPD conducted a full investigation. Internal Affairs even ordered a forensic analysis of the car's interior. They determined that the complaint was true. Joel had been having sex with women in his police car, in public, on company time.
On April 11th, Joel was summoned to a meeting with his commander, and you'll hear that meeting in a later episode. And it was on that day that he could no longer hide the investigation from Caroline and their kids. In the early evening on April 11th, 2022, Joel was home with his family. Caroline and Nicole sat huddled together on the living room sofa. There were tears, accusations, and grief.
On April 11th, Joel was summoned to a meeting with his commander, and you'll hear that meeting in a later episode. And it was on that day that he could no longer hide the investigation from Caroline and their kids. In the early evening on April 11th, 2022, Joel was home with his family. Caroline and Nicole sat huddled together on the living room sofa. There were tears, accusations, and grief.
Their son was on speakerphone from college, alternating between anguish and disgust.
Their son was on speakerphone from college, alternating between anguish and disgust.
He was only admitting to what the CSPD had already uncovered. Meanwhile, he told his family a tearful story about what happened.
He was only admitting to what the CSPD had already uncovered. Meanwhile, he told his family a tearful story about what happened.
Please consider joining our community to gain access to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to betrayal.substack, that's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K, or just go to substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe.
Please consider joining our community to gain access to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to betrayal.substack, that's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K, or just go to substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe.
Joel insisted that he only had been unfaithful with two people. But Caroline wasn't naive. She knew there had to be more.
Joel insisted that he only had been unfaithful with two people. But Caroline wasn't naive. She knew there had to be more.
With Caroline's words still hanging in the air, Joel dropped another bombshell. Back in episode one, we learned he'd been tapped for one of the department's most sought-after roles, the public information officer. He'd be the face of the department, the media liaison, the voice. He'd already done the job temporarily. Then, out of nowhere, the offer vanished.
With Caroline's words still hanging in the air, Joel dropped another bombshell. Back in episode one, we learned he'd been tapped for one of the department's most sought-after roles, the public information officer. He'd be the face of the department, the media liaison, the voice. He'd already done the job temporarily. Then, out of nowhere, the offer vanished.
But that had been a lie. There hadn't been an issue with the chief. The issue had been with Joel.
But that had been a lie. There hadn't been an issue with the chief. The issue had been with Joel.
While Joel served as temporary public information officer in 2016, he asked female reporters to use an encrypted app to communicate with him. And what he said there unnerved the reporters. When one reporter heard Joel Kern was going to be appointed the permanent public information officer in 2019, she was alarmed and wrote a letter. Here's how it began.
While Joel served as temporary public information officer in 2016, he asked female reporters to use an encrypted app to communicate with him. And what he said there unnerved the reporters. When one reporter heard Joel Kern was going to be appointed the permanent public information officer in 2019, she was alarmed and wrote a letter. Here's how it began.
To the Colorado Springs Police Department, I'm writing to voice my concerns about naming Lieutenant Joel Kern the next PIO. To accuse anyone of inappropriate behavior is a risk. But to accuse an officer, especially one that controls which media members get information and how fast, could be career suicide. But that is what most emboldened me to voice my concerns now.
To the Colorado Springs Police Department, I'm writing to voice my concerns about naming Lieutenant Joel Kern the next PIO. To accuse anyone of inappropriate behavior is a risk. But to accuse an officer, especially one that controls which media members get information and how fast, could be career suicide. But that is what most emboldened me to voice my concerns now.
This letter led to Joel Kern's first internal affairs investigation for sexually harassing female news reporters. The CSPB started by interviewing the reporter that wrote the letter.
This letter led to Joel Kern's first internal affairs investigation for sexually harassing female news reporters. The CSPB started by interviewing the reporter that wrote the letter.
Internal affairs asked the reporter about the app Joel asked her to download.
Internal affairs asked the reporter about the app Joel asked her to download.
The reporter knew of other women who felt the same way, but they either decided it was too risky to complain or felt it didn't rise to the level of needing to report. So without any other complaints, the investigation was relatively thin, and it looked like Joel was going to talk his way out of this one. We actually received the recording of Joel doing exactly that.
The reporter knew of other women who felt the same way, but they either decided it was too risky to complain or felt it didn't rise to the level of needing to report. So without any other complaints, the investigation was relatively thin, and it looked like Joel was going to talk his way out of this one. We actually received the recording of Joel doing exactly that.
Oshetsky asked Joel to explain why he had urged reporters to download WhatsApp, an encrypted app that his supervisors couldn't monitor. This was a violation of department rules and Joel knew it.
Oshetsky asked Joel to explain why he had urged reporters to download WhatsApp, an encrypted app that his supervisors couldn't monitor. This was a violation of department rules and Joel knew it.
At first, Joel said it was for security. But the IA officer wasn't buying that.
At first, Joel said it was for security. But the IA officer wasn't buying that.
Right as the conversation gets to the heart of the issue, his abuse of power, Joel pivots. He wells up with tears and changes the subject to what he's been going through recently.
Right as the conversation gets to the heart of the issue, his abuse of power, Joel pivots. He wells up with tears and changes the subject to what he's been going through recently.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 2. cat and mouse. In the last episode, we met Caroline Berega and learned about her husband, former Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Joel Kern. On the outside, they were the perfect American family. Then on April 11, 2022, Joel detonated a bomb on his life, a bomb that would destroy his family.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 2. cat and mouse. In the last episode, we met Caroline Berega and learned about her husband, former Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Joel Kern. On the outside, they were the perfect American family. Then on April 11, 2022, Joel detonated a bomb on his life, a bomb that would destroy his family.
Caroline had no idea her marriage was in a bad place in 2019. If you remember from episode one, Caroline shared Joel had a few breakdowns and ultimately started therapy. He had mentioned witnessing the carnage from fatal accident scenes and his fear about their kids starting to drive. But she'd been there for him, and they worked through it as a couple.
Caroline had no idea her marriage was in a bad place in 2019. If you remember from episode one, Caroline shared Joel had a few breakdowns and ultimately started therapy. He had mentioned witnessing the carnage from fatal accident scenes and his fear about their kids starting to drive. But she'd been there for him, and they worked through it as a couple.
As the interview continued, Joel read the room. He realized his best strategy would be to fall on the sword.
As the interview continued, Joel read the room. He realized his best strategy would be to fall on the sword.
Joel had been on the record pleading for mercy three years before his official suspension, which was on April 11th, 2022. And on April 11th, the truth was finally being laid bare in their living room. Caroline and their daughter were on the couch, and their son was on speakerphone. They listened to Joel confess that he'd been lying and covering his tracks for years.
Joel had been on the record pleading for mercy three years before his official suspension, which was on April 11th, 2022. And on April 11th, the truth was finally being laid bare in their living room. Caroline and their daughter were on the couch, and their son was on speakerphone. They listened to Joel confess that he'd been lying and covering his tracks for years.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Caroline's entire world had come apart in a single afternoon. Immediately, she reached out to a close friend who would soon take on a greater role in her life.
Caroline's entire world had come apart in a single afternoon. Immediately, she reached out to a close friend who would soon take on a greater role in her life.
Dawn was a good friend to both Caroline and Joel.
Dawn was a good friend to both Caroline and Joel.
Dawn normally made it policy not to represent her friends in a divorce, but she made an exception this time. Not so much for Caroline, but for the kids.
Dawn normally made it policy not to represent her friends in a divorce, but she made an exception this time. Not so much for Caroline, but for the kids.
April 11th is now called D-Day by Caroline and her kids. Here's Caroline and Joel's daughter, Nicole.
April 11th is now called D-Day by Caroline and her kids. Here's Caroline and Joel's daughter, Nicole.
The kids had to find a way to keep going. Their son wanted to come home from college, but Caroline wouldn't allow it.
The kids had to find a way to keep going. Their son wanted to come home from college, but Caroline wouldn't allow it.
As for Caroline, she was on autopilot. Her friends came to her with some unsettling but important advice.
As for Caroline, she was on autopilot. Her friends came to her with some unsettling but important advice.
Caroline had asked Joel repeatedly, what else? What else have you done? She didn't want any more surprises. There had to be more than just two affairs. And this experience was confirmation that our instincts were dead on.
Caroline had asked Joel repeatedly, what else? What else have you done? She didn't want any more surprises. There had to be more than just two affairs. And this experience was confirmation that our instincts were dead on.
Nicole was at school when she noticed Caroline's location on their Family Life 360 app.
Nicole was at school when she noticed Caroline's location on their Family Life 360 app.
Nicole grabbed Joel's computer and started looking through it, logging onto various websites and reading his emails and text messages. They were there for the truth. All those long nights on duty, what else had Joel been up to? How far did his misconduct go?
Nicole grabbed Joel's computer and started looking through it, logging onto various websites and reading his emails and text messages. They were there for the truth. All those long nights on duty, what else had Joel been up to? How far did his misconduct go?
Nicole dialed in her older brother. She wanted him to hear everything. So it became the next family meeting. And then Nicole started recording on her phone. She wanted documentation. She and her mom were running on adrenaline.
Nicole dialed in her older brother. She wanted him to hear everything. So it became the next family meeting. And then Nicole started recording on her phone. She wanted documentation. She and her mom were running on adrenaline.
Memorial Park was where Joel met the first woman to have sex in his cop car. At first, he denied he was working when they met up.
Memorial Park was where Joel met the first woman to have sex in his cop car. At first, he denied he was working when they met up.
Everyone thought Joel was one of the good ones. An honorable cop. They had sacrificed so much for his career. She didn't recognize this man. In fact, she didn't recognize her life at all. Her life was now split into two. Two realities running parallel tracks. There were her memories. And then, there was everything Joel was doing behind her back. All of those late nights. The missed sports games.
Everyone thought Joel was one of the good ones. An honorable cop. They had sacrificed so much for his career. She didn't recognize this man. In fact, she didn't recognize her life at all. Her life was now split into two. Two realities running parallel tracks. There were her memories. And then, there was everything Joel was doing behind her back. All of those late nights. The missed sports games.
Did something happen? And then I said, is daddy okay? Caroline was at a loss for words. They all lived with the fear that one day, Joel wouldn't come home from work. But Joel wasn't injured or killed in the line of duty. Still, nothing was okay. Caroline and Joel's son was a freshman in college, far from home.
Did something happen? And then I said, is daddy okay? Caroline was at a loss for words. They all lived with the fear that one day, Joel wouldn't come home from work. But Joel wasn't injured or killed in the line of duty. Still, nothing was okay. Caroline and Joel's son was a freshman in college, far from home.
The holidays. Where was he? Her brain never went there. She didn't know what was real anymore. It was a sad and terrifying feeling.
The holidays. Where was he? Her brain never went there. She didn't know what was real anymore. It was a sad and terrifying feeling.
So was this finally the full picture? Were all of Joel's secrets out in the open? No, not even close. Here's Caroline and Joel's son.
So was this finally the full picture? Were all of Joel's secrets out in the open? No, not even close. Here's Caroline and Joel's son.
On the next episode of Betrayal, Caroline comes to the realization that Joel has been gaslighting her for years.
On the next episode of Betrayal, Caroline comes to the realization that Joel has been gaslighting her for years.
And more revelations about his double life are exposed. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates.
And more revelations about his double life are exposed. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates.
One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. And special thanks to Caroline and her family.
Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. And special thanks to Caroline and her family.
Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
The family met in the living room. Nicole and Caroline sat on the couch. Caroline and Joel's son was on speakerphone, and Joel stood in front of the fireplace. It was the most bizarre family meeting you could imagine. It felt like someone else's life. But no, it was happening in their home.
The family met in the living room. Nicole and Caroline sat on the couch. Caroline and Joel's son was on speakerphone, and Joel stood in front of the fireplace. It was the most bizarre family meeting you could imagine. It felt like someone else's life. But no, it was happening in their home.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
What was going on? Well, to understand the events of April 11, 2022, we need to go back a few months prior, to February 5th. That day, a stranger showed up on Caroline and Joel's doorstep. Joel was home and answered the door. The whole interaction happened to be recorded. The sound isn't great, but you'll get the gist of it. And we've distorted the stranger's voice to protect his privacy.
What was going on? Well, to understand the events of April 11, 2022, we need to go back a few months prior, to February 5th. That day, a stranger showed up on Caroline and Joel's doorstep. Joel was home and answered the door. The whole interaction happened to be recorded. The sound isn't great, but you'll get the gist of it. And we've distorted the stranger's voice to protect his privacy.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
And with that, the couple took off and Joel was left alone to contemplate what just happened. This man managed to find his house and came right to his front door. Caroline had been out on a run and missed the whole confrontation by minutes. But Joel wasn't home alone. Nicole was in the basement, just doing her homework.
And with that, the couple took off and Joel was left alone to contemplate what just happened. This man managed to find his house and came right to his front door. Caroline had been out on a run and missed the whole confrontation by minutes. But Joel wasn't home alone. Nicole was in the basement, just doing her homework.
Joel carried on as if nothing happened. In fact, later that night, Joel and Caroline went to a party. He also never mentioned the confrontation to his family.
Joel carried on as if nothing happened. In fact, later that night, Joel and Caroline went to a party. He also never mentioned the confrontation to his family.
Okay. Caroline laughed it off in the moment. Looking back now, she sees that Joel's mind was somewhere else that night. But there was bad news for Joel. The stranger who came to his door made another stop that day. After he pulled out of Joel's driveway, he and his wife drove straight to the Colorado Springs Police Department, or CSPD, and filed an official complaint against Joel.
Okay. Caroline laughed it off in the moment. Looking back now, she sees that Joel's mind was somewhere else that night. But there was bad news for Joel. The stranger who came to his door made another stop that day. After he pulled out of Joel's driveway, he and his wife drove straight to the Colorado Springs Police Department, or CSPD, and filed an official complaint against Joel.
After all, an officer having sex in his police car while on duty would be a major professional violation. We filed an open records request so we could get those investigation records. Over the past year, we received hundreds of pages from CSPD, all relating to Joel Kern. We were also given actual audio recordings from the investigation. What you're about to hear is from one of those recordings.
After all, an officer having sex in his police car while on duty would be a major professional violation. We filed an open records request so we could get those investigation records. Over the past year, we received hundreds of pages from CSPD, all relating to Joel Kern. We were also given actual audio recordings from the investigation. What you're about to hear is from one of those recordings.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
It's Joel's boss, Commander Strassner, being interviewed by Internal Affairs about Joel's alleged misconduct.
It's Joel's boss, Commander Strassner, being interviewed by Internal Affairs about Joel's alleged misconduct.
Strassner was one of the first people Joel went to when he heard about the complaint.
Strassner was one of the first people Joel went to when he heard about the complaint.
But was his rage really directed at the couple for making the complaint? Or was it directed at the Internal Affairs Department for taking the complaint seriously? Joel was an experienced, respected police lieutenant. This investigation threatened to take all that away.
But was his rage really directed at the couple for making the complaint? Or was it directed at the Internal Affairs Department for taking the complaint seriously? Joel was an experienced, respected police lieutenant. This investigation threatened to take all that away.
A preliminary inquiry is like an initial check to see if there's any valid reason to suspect that the officer has done something wrong. Internal affairs can then decide to move forward with the investigation or close the matter.
A preliminary inquiry is like an initial check to see if there's any valid reason to suspect that the officer has done something wrong. Internal affairs can then decide to move forward with the investigation or close the matter.
Let's be clear, what the complaint was alleging was no ordinary affair. They were claiming police misconduct, an officer abusing his badge, having sex in a taxpayer-funded vehicle, on the public's time, and in public. Remember, Joel had worked in internal affairs years earlier. He understood how it operated. Ironically, he had worked in the department with Commander Strassner.
Let's be clear, what the complaint was alleging was no ordinary affair. They were claiming police misconduct, an officer abusing his badge, having sex in a taxpayer-funded vehicle, on the public's time, and in public. Remember, Joel had worked in internal affairs years earlier. He understood how it operated. Ironically, he had worked in the department with Commander Strassner.
But Strassner also gave Joel some reassurance.
But Strassner also gave Joel some reassurance.
Strassner could tell that Joel was distraught. This was a serious matter. Someone could be filing a false report or impersonating him. Strassner assured Joel that if someone was victimizing him, they would be held accountable. To complete the investigation, the CSPD took Joel's police vehicle and his department-issued phone.
Strassner could tell that Joel was distraught. This was a serious matter. Someone could be filing a false report or impersonating him. Strassner assured Joel that if someone was victimizing him, they would be held accountable. To complete the investigation, the CSPD took Joel's police vehicle and his department-issued phone.
This was recorded in February 2022. The investigation into Joel had been going on for two months. Two months where he knew his life was on the brink of collapse. Meanwhile, Caroline was completely in the dark. Joel didn't tell her about the man on their doorstep or the misconduct investigation.
This was recorded in February 2022. The investigation into Joel had been going on for two months. Two months where he knew his life was on the brink of collapse. Meanwhile, Caroline was completely in the dark. Joel didn't tell her about the man on their doorstep or the misconduct investigation.
It seemed like Joel thought that with his rank and years of service, he would be able to talk his way out of this. But the CSPD was taking it seriously. They went ahead and looked for any evidence that would support the couple's claim. And that included interviewing the man and his wife. Yes, the couple who showed up at Joel's door agreed to cooperate.
It seemed like Joel thought that with his rank and years of service, he would be able to talk his way out of this. But the CSPD was taking it seriously. They went ahead and looked for any evidence that would support the couple's claim. And that included interviewing the man and his wife. Yes, the couple who showed up at Joel's door agreed to cooperate.
So Internal Affairs sat with the woman Joel adamantly denied ever seeing before. Here are some of that interview.
So Internal Affairs sat with the woman Joel adamantly denied ever seeing before. Here are some of that interview.
Joel had suggested that they meet at a public park.
Joel had suggested that they meet at a public park.
Danielle was shaken and confused about her husband's confession to a one-time fling. But at the same time, Chad was doing everything he could to make it right. He confessed to it immediately. He wanted to get help. And most importantly, he was coming to her with sincere remorse.
Danielle was shaken and confused about her husband's confession to a one-time fling. But at the same time, Chad was doing everything he could to make it right. He confessed to it immediately. He wanted to get help. And most importantly, he was coming to her with sincere remorse.
I was crying. He was saying he's sorry. Chad wanted to get help quickly. And so the next day, they did.
I was crying. He was saying he's sorry. Chad wanted to get help quickly. And so the next day, they did.
We were given a name of a Christian counselor. They had multiple sessions with the counselor. Some sessions together as a couple and some separately. During a one-on-one meeting, the counselor gave Danielle some advice.
We were given a name of a Christian counselor. They had multiple sessions with the counselor. Some sessions together as a couple and some separately. During a one-on-one meeting, the counselor gave Danielle some advice.
The counselor said he'd seen a situation like this before, and he wanted Danielle to know that divorce was an option.
The counselor said he'd seen a situation like this before, and he wanted Danielle to know that divorce was an option.
This one infidelity, it felt small and manageable, especially compared to the years they'd spend together, getting to know each other, studying the Bible together and building a life. She really trusted Chad.
This one infidelity, it felt small and manageable, especially compared to the years they'd spend together, getting to know each other, studying the Bible together and building a life. She really trusted Chad.
They got a workbook on overcoming infidelity and even did the homework together. And they decided to lean on their faith to help them rebuild their relationship. Church became an even bigger part of their lives.
They got a workbook on overcoming infidelity and even did the homework together. And they decided to lean on their faith to help them rebuild their relationship. Church became an even bigger part of their lives.
We were very involved in our faith. Their marriage began looking up, especially when, a year later, they welcomed their first baby, a baby girl.
We were very involved in our faith. Their marriage began looking up, especially when, a year later, they welcomed their first baby, a baby girl.
Danielle was on top of the world, so filled with love for her first daughter and her young family. It confirmed to her that she really did want to be a stay-at-home mom. She just felt whole.
Danielle was on top of the world, so filled with love for her first daughter and her young family. It confirmed to her that she really did want to be a stay-at-home mom. She just felt whole.
And your family is so cute. The difficulties she and Chad faced in the first year of marriage started to feel like they were in the rearview mirror.
And your family is so cute. The difficulties she and Chad faced in the first year of marriage started to feel like they were in the rearview mirror.
That baby would be the first of six.
That baby would be the first of six.
Soon, Danielle's life became consumed by full-time child care. As their kids got older, she started homeschooling them. And she loved every minute of it.
Soon, Danielle's life became consumed by full-time child care. As their kids got older, she started homeschooling them. And she loved every minute of it.
With a growing family came more financial demands. But luckily, Chad's business was taking off. They even had the ability to upgrade their house.
With a growing family came more financial demands. But luckily, Chad's business was taking off. They even had the ability to upgrade their house.
Danielle didn't think it was the most practical choice, but the house made him happy. After they moved in, he tried to tell her how to run the house, but she stood her ground. She trusted him to handle the finances. So when it came to the housework, he needed to trust her.
Danielle didn't think it was the most practical choice, but the house made him happy. After they moved in, he tried to tell her how to run the house, but she stood her ground. She trusted him to handle the finances. So when it came to the housework, he needed to trust her.
Hi Betrayal listeners, it's Andrea Gunning. We're off this week for Thanksgiving, but we'll be back next week with a brand new story. This week, we wanted to re-release a listener favorite, Danielle's story. We originally released it in two parts, but for this re-release, we're combining both parts for you so you can hear her full story all at once.
Hi Betrayal listeners, it's Andrea Gunning. We're off this week for Thanksgiving, but we'll be back next week with a brand new story. This week, we wanted to re-release a listener favorite, Danielle's story. We originally released it in two parts, but for this re-release, we're combining both parts for you so you can hear her full story all at once.
You know?
You know?
And there were a lot of things that needed dusting. Chad was a collector. It was a quirk that Danielle accepted.
And there were a lot of things that needed dusting. Chad was a collector. It was a quirk that Danielle accepted.
They loved watching movies as a family. And after the kids went to bed, the couple would watch their favorite TV shows. Dexter and Breaking Bad. Every summer, Danielle, Chad, and their six kids would take family road trips.
They loved watching movies as a family. And after the kids went to bed, the couple would watch their favorite TV shows. Dexter and Breaking Bad. Every summer, Danielle, Chad, and their six kids would take family road trips.
On these trips, they'd stay in huge rental homes. Chad always wanted the best of the best for the family. And they were very nice, very nice rented houses.
On these trips, they'd stay in huge rental homes. Chad always wanted the best of the best for the family. And they were very nice, very nice rented houses.
One summer, about 15 years into their marriage, the family was on one of their regular road trips. And on this trip, their rental home was in a remote area.
One summer, about 15 years into their marriage, the family was on one of their regular road trips. And on this trip, their rental home was in a remote area.
He was just gone. It was the early 2000s, so she didn't have a smartphone to look at his location. She started to worry that something terrible happened.
He was just gone. It was the early 2000s, so she didn't have a smartphone to look at his location. She started to worry that something terrible happened.
Around 3 a.m., the phone rang. It was Chad.
Around 3 a.m., the phone rang. It was Chad.
One thing we love about Danielle's story is the ending, where she finds love again. And as you'll hear in the episode, she and her new husband got married at the Thanksgiving table. They said their vows between dinner and dessert, surrounded by all of their family. We will be back next week with a brand new episode.
One thing we love about Danielle's story is the ending, where she finds love again. And as you'll hear in the episode, she and her new husband got married at the Thanksgiving table. They said their vows between dinner and dessert, surrounded by all of their family. We will be back next week with a brand new episode.
When Chad got back, he tried to explain it away.
When Chad got back, he tried to explain it away.
He blew it over. Whenever they got in a disagreement, this is what he'd tell her. His favorite phrase was, don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
He blew it over. Whenever they got in a disagreement, this is what he'd tell her. His favorite phrase was, don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
abandoning the family in a rental house in the middle of the night with no good explanation, it just didn't sit right with her. So Danielle called her mom. She was like, oh, wow, yeah, that is really weird. I'm glad you're okay. You know, I'm glad it all worked out, but that is really weird. Danielle was the full-time caretaker for six children under 15.
abandoning the family in a rental house in the middle of the night with no good explanation, it just didn't sit right with her. So Danielle called her mom. She was like, oh, wow, yeah, that is really weird. I'm glad you're okay. You know, I'm glad it all worked out, but that is really weird. Danielle was the full-time caretaker for six children under 15.
She didn't have the energy to fight with her husband. I didn't confront him.
She didn't have the energy to fight with her husband. I didn't confront him.
Plus, whenever she did question him, it always ended up coming back on her.
Plus, whenever she did question him, it always ended up coming back on her.
And in the meantime, for those celebrating Happy Thanksgiving, we are so grateful to all of you, our listeners. Thank you for everything. So without further ado, here's Danielle's story.
And in the meantime, for those celebrating Happy Thanksgiving, we are so grateful to all of you, our listeners. Thank you for everything. So without further ado, here's Danielle's story.
When Danielle woke up on a family vacation to find her husband missing, he said he was picking up something for work at a Walmart in the middle of the night. She didn't quite buy the story, but she knew Chad was busier than ever, growing his financial advising firm. Around the same time, he decided to start making passive income by buying rental properties in town.
When Danielle woke up on a family vacation to find her husband missing, he said he was picking up something for work at a Walmart in the middle of the night. She didn't quite buy the story, but she knew Chad was busier than ever, growing his financial advising firm. Around the same time, he decided to start making passive income by buying rental properties in town.
It started with one small house, then two, then an apartment building in their hometown. He was so busy that he often worked from home at nights. He renovated their basement to become his home office. He even put in a king-size bed.
It started with one small house, then two, then an apartment building in their hometown. He was so busy that he often worked from home at nights. He renovated their basement to become his home office. He even put in a king-size bed.
It bothered her, him staying up late like this and sleeping in his office. It also bothered her that he locked the door. He said it was a security measure because he had important financial documents in there.
It bothered her, him staying up late like this and sleeping in his office. It also bothered her that he locked the door. He said it was a security measure because he had important financial documents in there.
He started coming to bed with her until she fell asleep. Then he would slip out and go back to work. She would only realize it when she woke up and found him gone.
He started coming to bed with her until she fell asleep. Then he would slip out and go back to work. She would only realize it when she woke up and found him gone.
She never found any proof that her husband was cheating or having an affair. She didn't have the energy to start a fight with him. He insisted on sleeping in the basement. Eventually, she became resigned to the fact she couldn't change his mind. At that point in our marriage, I felt very distant from him.
She never found any proof that her husband was cheating or having an affair. She didn't have the energy to start a fight with him. He insisted on sleeping in the basement. Eventually, she became resigned to the fact she couldn't change his mind. At that point in our marriage, I felt very distant from him.
In this period where Chad was sleeping in the basement office and they were bickering, Danielle knew that their marriage needed to improve. So she sought help for herself.
In this period where Chad was sleeping in the basement office and they were bickering, Danielle knew that their marriage needed to improve. So she sought help for herself.
I wanted our marriage to be a really good marriage, and I didn't feel that it was a good marriage. She even suggested they try counseling again as a couple. But this time, Chad resisted.
I wanted our marriage to be a really good marriage, and I didn't feel that it was a good marriage. She even suggested they try counseling again as a couple. But this time, Chad resisted.
With each passing month, Chad spent more and more time out of the house, renovating the rental properties. And some nights, tenants would call with emergencies. There would be nights where he would say, oh, I got to go.
With each passing month, Chad spent more and more time out of the house, renovating the rental properties. And some nights, tenants would call with emergencies. There would be nights where he would say, oh, I got to go.
Despite their rocky few years, she still trusted him. She had to.
Despite their rocky few years, she still trusted him. She had to.
Plus, the rental properties added financial security to their lives. She believed that at the end of the day, he was working so hard in order to provide for the family. She often overheard him practicing conversations he needed to have for work.
Plus, the rental properties added financial security to their lives. She believed that at the end of the day, he was working so hard in order to provide for the family. She often overheard him practicing conversations he needed to have for work.
There was one big meeting in particular Chad was preparing for. It was with an older couple that went to their church, a couple that taught Sunday school. They had known Chad for nearly his whole life. And they were wealthy. Chad set up a meeting with them to pitch his financial advising services.
There was one big meeting in particular Chad was preparing for. It was with an older couple that went to their church, a couple that taught Sunday school. They had known Chad for nearly his whole life. And they were wealthy. Chad set up a meeting with them to pitch his financial advising services.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. One night in 2017, Danielle Oliver Chauvet was awoken by the FBI and state police. They were pointing guns at her, demanding to know where her husband was. That night, she learned the man she had spent 20 years with was hiding some very big secrets.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. One night in 2017, Danielle Oliver Chauvet was awoken by the FBI and state police. They were pointing guns at her, demanding to know where her husband was. That night, she learned the man she had spent 20 years with was hiding some very big secrets.
In the end, they decided not to use him. He was dejected. He'd been counting on their business. After that meeting didn't go as planned, he started talking about selling his financial advising business. And instead, getting into the storage industry.
In the end, they decided not to use him. He was dejected. He'd been counting on their business. After that meeting didn't go as planned, he started talking about selling his financial advising business. And instead, getting into the storage industry.
And so we need to set up this LLC. He wanted Danielle to sign paperwork to help set up the business. If we have you as the president, then it's better for taxes because you're a woman. He asked her to go to the bank with him that day to get it set up. And there, out in public, she noticed that her husband looked disheveled.
And so we need to set up this LLC. He wanted Danielle to sign paperwork to help set up the business. If we have you as the president, then it's better for taxes because you're a woman. He asked her to go to the bank with him that day to get it set up. And there, out in public, she noticed that her husband looked disheveled.
Later that day, one of Danielle's kids came to her. He said that last night, he'd seen something strange in the driveway of their house.
Later that day, one of Danielle's kids came to her. He said that last night, he'd seen something strange in the driveway of their house.
This was alarming because another one of her kids had confessed something bizarre.
This was alarming because another one of her kids had confessed something bizarre.
Immediately, she tried to get in touch with Chad, but he wasn't answering his phone. After they went to the bank, he'd left the house to work on a rental property.
Immediately, she tried to get in touch with Chad, but he wasn't answering his phone. After they went to the bank, he'd left the house to work on a rental property.
If it sounds like Danielle is reading off of a piece of paper, it's because she is. She's reading from a written statement documenting this day. Nothing is as it seems.
If it sounds like Danielle is reading off of a piece of paper, it's because she is. She's reading from a written statement documenting this day. Nothing is as it seems.
That night, Chad didn't come home for dinner. At the time, she assumed he'd fallen asleep at the rental property again. But she couldn't leave her six small children to go check on him. So around 11 p.m., after putting the kids to bed, she went to sleep herself.
That night, Chad didn't come home for dinner. At the time, she assumed he'd fallen asleep at the rental property again. But she couldn't leave her six small children to go check on him. So around 11 p.m., after putting the kids to bed, she went to sleep herself.
It was becoming very clear very quickly this was actually the state police and the FBI. There wasn't a mistake. They were looking for Chad. And they were incredibly serious.
It was becoming very clear very quickly this was actually the state police and the FBI. There wasn't a mistake. They were looking for Chad. And they were incredibly serious.
This is Danielle's first time telling her story. She's been reluctant to share what she went through because, as you'll hear in part two, her husband has other victims. She wants to be respectful of their experience and suffering. But this episode isn't about her husband's crimes.
This is Danielle's first time telling her story. She's been reluctant to share what she went through because, as you'll hear in part two, her husband has other victims. She wants to be respectful of their experience and suffering. But this episode isn't about her husband's crimes.
Then the police asked her about the elderly couple that went to their church. The ones Chad wanted as clients. Why are you asking me questions about them? And where is my husband?
Then the police asked her about the elderly couple that went to their church. The ones Chad wanted as clients. Why are you asking me questions about them? And where is my husband?
It's about the 20-year marriage Danielle built with him, the ways he deceived and violated her, and the shocking betrayal that ended it all. It's also the story of being totally in the dark about your partner's double life.
It's about the 20-year marriage Danielle built with him, the ways he deceived and violated her, and the shocking betrayal that ended it all. It's also the story of being totally in the dark about your partner's double life.
Danielle Oliver Chauvet woke up in the middle of the night on February 8, 2017, to find her house swarmed with police and FBI agents.
Danielle Oliver Chauvet woke up in the middle of the night on February 8, 2017, to find her house swarmed with police and FBI agents.
They thought I was involved. But a suspect in what? Danielle would soon find out. Chan Skipper, her husband of nearly 20 years and the father of their six children, hadn't come home that night. He said he'd been renovating one of their rental properties. The police were screaming questions at her about where Chad was, asking if she had any hiding places in the house.
They thought I was involved. But a suspect in what? Danielle would soon find out. Chan Skipper, her husband of nearly 20 years and the father of their six children, hadn't come home that night. He said he'd been renovating one of their rental properties. The police were screaming questions at her about where Chad was, asking if she had any hiding places in the house.
And most confusing of all, the police were asking about an elderly couple who taught Sunday school at their church. Why are you asking me questions about them? And where is my husband? The police wouldn't give her any information about what was happening or why they were at her house. But it was clear that whatever it was, it was urgent. The police took her in and began a long interrogation.
And most confusing of all, the police were asking about an elderly couple who taught Sunday school at their church. Why are you asking me questions about them? And where is my husband? The police wouldn't give her any information about what was happening or why they were at her house. But it was clear that whatever it was, it was urgent. The police took her in and began a long interrogation.
We've known them for a long time. They were also asking questions about the family's finances. Questions Danielle just didn't have the answers to. I was shaking. I was just...
We've known them for a long time. They were also asking questions about the family's finances. Questions Danielle just didn't have the answers to. I was shaking. I was just...
It didn't even dawn on me that it could be what it was. After hours of interrogation, the police let Danielle go. She went to a friend's house where her kids were waiting for her. She repeatedly tried to get in touch with Chad without any reply. Then, first thing the next morning, her phone rang. It was Chad's father.
It didn't even dawn on me that it could be what it was. After hours of interrogation, the police let Danielle go. She went to a friend's house where her kids were waiting for her. She repeatedly tried to get in touch with Chad without any reply. Then, first thing the next morning, her phone rang. It was Chad's father.
Unbeknownst to anyone, that couple from their church had been missing for three days. We're not saying their names because Danielle wants to respect their privacy. Before this, they were friends, and Danielle believes that their story is their family's to tell, just like her story is hers to tell. So for this episode, she's going to call them... His victims.
Unbeknownst to anyone, that couple from their church had been missing for three days. We're not saying their names because Danielle wants to respect their privacy. Before this, they were friends, and Danielle believes that their story is their family's to tell, just like her story is hers to tell. So for this episode, she's going to call them... His victims.
They were amazing people. The day before police raided Danielle's house, a woman had walked into a bank and asked for a cashier's check for $350,000 from her own savings account. Before the teller cut the check, the woman slipped her a note. She was being held for ransom. Her captor was waiting down the block with her husband in the trunk.
They were amazing people. The day before police raided Danielle's house, a woman had walked into a bank and asked for a cashier's check for $350,000 from her own savings account. Before the teller cut the check, the woman slipped her a note. She was being held for ransom. Her captor was waiting down the block with her husband in the trunk.
If she didn't return to the car with the check, her kidnapper said he would kill her husband. She needed to walk out of that bank, check in hand. So they gave it to her and let her go. And as soon as she walked out of the door, the teller called the police. That call initiated a statewide search for the kidnapped couple and their captor. Immediately, it became the top story on the local news.
If she didn't return to the car with the check, her kidnapper said he would kill her husband. She needed to walk out of that bank, check in hand. So they gave it to her and let her go. And as soon as she walked out of the door, the teller called the police. That call initiated a statewide search for the kidnapped couple and their captor. Immediately, it became the top story on the local news.
The morning after the raid, Danielle was still in the dark about what was happening. She was reeling and desperately trying to get in touch with her husband. She didn't want to believe the wild theory that Chad could have kidnapped this elderly couple. That was until she saw his picture on the news.
The morning after the raid, Danielle was still in the dark about what was happening. She was reeling and desperately trying to get in touch with her husband. She didn't want to believe the wild theory that Chad could have kidnapped this elderly couple. That was until she saw his picture on the news.
In that moment, she understood why the police woke her up in the middle of the night.
In that moment, she understood why the police woke her up in the middle of the night.
Danielle grew up in a happy, tight-knit family in California.
Danielle grew up in a happy, tight-knit family in California.
Over the following days and weeks, Danielle discovered the full extent of her husband's horrifying crimes. This is what she learned.
Over the following days and weeks, Danielle discovered the full extent of her husband's horrifying crimes. This is what she learned.
He just sat in their kitchen for hours in the middle of the night before he finally entered the bedroom where the elderly couple was sleeping.
He just sat in their kitchen for hours in the middle of the night before he finally entered the bedroom where the elderly couple was sleeping.
After the police showed up at the bank, they called in the FBI, who traced the cashier's check and found the couple's names and address. When they searched their home, they discovered signs of forced entry, evidence of a deployed taser, and small drops of blood in the bedroom. But the house was eerily quiet. No one was home.
After the police showed up at the bank, they called in the FBI, who traced the cashier's check and found the couple's names and address. When they searched their home, they discovered signs of forced entry, evidence of a deployed taser, and small drops of blood in the bedroom. But the house was eerily quiet. No one was home.
In fact, by the time the police were alerted, no one had heard from the couple in three days.
In fact, by the time the police were alerted, no one had heard from the couple in three days.
While Chad was committing this elaborate crime, Danielle was at home taking care of their kids, going about her business just as usual, completely unaware that her husband had violently kidnapped their family friends and was holding them for ransom. But where was Chad? And where was he holding the couple? Danielle had no idea.
While Chad was committing this elaborate crime, Danielle was at home taking care of their kids, going about her business just as usual, completely unaware that her husband had violently kidnapped their family friends and was holding them for ransom. But where was Chad? And where was he holding the couple? Danielle had no idea.
When the police were finally alerted, they knew time was of the essence. They relied on the FBI and state police to use all resources possible to find the missing couple. Ransom kidnapping cases like this often end in tragedy, especially considering the money was already exchanged. They were running out of time. With each passing hour, the search grew increasingly urgent.
When the police were finally alerted, they knew time was of the essence. They relied on the FBI and state police to use all resources possible to find the missing couple. Ransom kidnapping cases like this often end in tragedy, especially considering the money was already exchanged. They were running out of time. With each passing hour, the search grew increasingly urgent.
Then the FBI got a tip about a car matching the description of the one seen leaving the bank with the kidnapped victims, a silver 1990 Chevy Caprice. But Danielle didn't know anything about a Chevy Caprice, so maybe they had the wrong guy. The police tracked the car down, but when they went to pull it over, the driver sped up. It was all over the local news.
Then the FBI got a tip about a car matching the description of the one seen leaving the bank with the kidnapped victims, a silver 1990 Chevy Caprice. But Danielle didn't know anything about a Chevy Caprice, so maybe they had the wrong guy. The police tracked the car down, but when they went to pull it over, the driver sped up. It was all over the local news.
Growing up, Danielle's parents were her role models. They had a respectful and happy marriage. It was an environment that nurtured her easygoing and trusting nature.
Growing up, Danielle's parents were her role models. They had a respectful and happy marriage. It was an environment that nurtured her easygoing and trusting nature.
The police approached the crashed vehicle and found that the driver was indeed Chad Skipper. He was injured but alive and arrested on the spot in connection with the kidnapping. Law enforcement was hoping to find the victims with Chad, alive in the trunk of his car, but no one else was with him. Instead, the police found clear plastic painter's tarps, a saw, duct tape, and a shovel.
The police approached the crashed vehicle and found that the driver was indeed Chad Skipper. He was injured but alive and arrested on the spot in connection with the kidnapping. Law enforcement was hoping to find the victims with Chad, alive in the trunk of his car, but no one else was with him. Instead, the police found clear plastic painter's tarps, a saw, duct tape, and a shovel.
Now that Chad was arrested, the only priority was finding the missing couple. There were still a few places the police hadn't searched, Chad's rental properties. After he was arrested, Chad gave police the address where he said the couple was being held.
Now that Chad was arrested, the only priority was finding the missing couple. There were still a few places the police hadn't searched, Chad's rental properties. After he was arrested, Chad gave police the address where he said the couple was being held.
When police showed up, it looked like a construction zone. The surfaces were covered in sawdust and power tools. The doors were taken off their hinges, and there was a ladder in the middle of the living room. But it also looked like someone had been squatting there. There was trash everywhere, plates of half-eaten food, electronic wires and cables dangled from the outlets.
When police showed up, it looked like a construction zone. The surfaces were covered in sawdust and power tools. The doors were taken off their hinges, and there was a ladder in the middle of the living room. But it also looked like someone had been squatting there. There was trash everywhere, plates of half-eaten food, electronic wires and cables dangled from the outlets.
Police searched every room, but no one seemed to be in the house. Then they double-checked the bedroom, where they took a closer look at a computer monitor laying on the floor. It appeared to show a surveillance feed, six live feed images of a windowless room where two figures were lying on a mattress covered by blankets. On the wall next to them were hooks and shackles.
Police searched every room, but no one seemed to be in the house. Then they double-checked the bedroom, where they took a closer look at a computer monitor laying on the floor. It appeared to show a surveillance feed, six live feed images of a windowless room where two figures were lying on a mattress covered by blankets. On the wall next to them were hooks and shackles.
There was a secret room somewhere in this house and Chad's victims were in there.
There was a secret room somewhere in this house and Chad's victims were in there.
She was raised with a strong sense of faith. That's still one of her core values.
She was raised with a strong sense of faith. That's still one of her core values.
Danielle's one of those rare people who loved high school. She was popular, and she had a longtime high school boyfriend named Billy.
Danielle's one of those rare people who loved high school. She was popular, and she had a longtime high school boyfriend named Billy.
The night of Chad's arrest, police began searching one of his rental properties for a secret room, a dungeon, where he was holding two people captive. From what they could see on the surveillance feed, it was a windowless room somewhere in the house. The couple was lying motionless on a mattress. It wasn't clear if they were alive.
The night of Chad's arrest, police began searching one of his rental properties for a secret room, a dungeon, where he was holding two people captive. From what they could see on the surveillance feed, it was a windowless room somewhere in the house. The couple was lying motionless on a mattress. It wasn't clear if they were alive.
But then one of the FBI agents moved a dresser in the closet and lifted up a piece of carpeting to reveal a locked steel hatch.
But then one of the FBI agents moved a dresser in the closet and lifted up a piece of carpeting to reveal a locked steel hatch.
Police used bolt cutters to open the door. They found an eight-foot drop into a dark, windowless room, and they went in. That's where they discovered the couple, miraculously still alive. They had been tortured and chained. Chad said he had people watching their kids and grandkids. So if they tried to escape or get help, he would kill them.
Police used bolt cutters to open the door. They found an eight-foot drop into a dark, windowless room, and they went in. That's where they discovered the couple, miraculously still alive. They had been tortured and chained. Chad said he had people watching their kids and grandkids. So if they tried to escape or get help, he would kill them.
How else could it end? And judging by the contents of his car, it seemed like he meant it. This what if still haunts Danielle. Chad was charged with felony home invasion, aggravated kidnapping, and unlawful restraint. His bail was set at a million dollars.
How else could it end? And judging by the contents of his car, it seemed like he meant it. This what if still haunts Danielle. Chad was charged with felony home invasion, aggravated kidnapping, and unlawful restraint. His bail was set at a million dollars.
Right before their senior year of high school, Billy proposed to her, and she said yes. But then... I actually had to move to Hawaii because my dad was working for the military, and we moved there. She ended up spending her senior year in Hawaii. Then she got accepted to college in Illinois. She was ready to start a new life there without her high school boyfriend.
Right before their senior year of high school, Billy proposed to her, and she said yes. But then... I actually had to move to Hawaii because my dad was working for the military, and we moved there. She ended up spending her senior year in Hawaii. Then she got accepted to college in Illinois. She was ready to start a new life there without her high school boyfriend.
Overnight, Danielle had to reckon with the fact that her husband of nearly two decades and the father of her children was capable of a violent crime. In addition to processing that shock, she didn't understand why. Was it all for the money? I didn't know that we were having financial trouble.
Overnight, Danielle had to reckon with the fact that her husband of nearly two decades and the father of her children was capable of a violent crime. In addition to processing that shock, she didn't understand why. Was it all for the money? I didn't know that we were having financial trouble.
To answer that question, Danielle started looking through Chad's basement office. There, she made a series of shocking discoveries. First, why he targeted the people he did.
To answer that question, Danielle started looking through Chad's basement office. There, she made a series of shocking discoveries. First, why he targeted the people he did.
His fake financial business. She also found out that he was never actually a certified financial advisor or planner. So what did he do for a living? From what she gathered in his office, he charmed elderly people into letting him be their financial advisor, where he would skim from their accounts for years.
His fake financial business. She also found out that he was never actually a certified financial advisor or planner. So what did he do for a living? From what she gathered in his office, he charmed elderly people into letting him be their financial advisor, where he would skim from their accounts for years.
In fact, after he was arrested, his own parents sued him for stealing over $400,000 while he claimed to serve as their financial advisor. But not only did he steal from his own parents, he also stole from his grandmother.
In fact, after he was arrested, his own parents sued him for stealing over $400,000 while he claimed to serve as their financial advisor. But not only did he steal from his own parents, he also stole from his grandmother.
He never confessed to this, but it added up for Danielle. What never made sense, though, was the construction of the dungeon. I found the plans and bills from it in his office. Chad had been hiring a contractor to build the dungeon piece by piece over the past two years.
He never confessed to this, but it added up for Danielle. What never made sense, though, was the construction of the dungeon. I found the plans and bills from it in his office. Chad had been hiring a contractor to build the dungeon piece by piece over the past two years.
The shocking fact that he'd built a dungeon to hold the kidnapping victims kept the story in the headlines for months.
The shocking fact that he'd built a dungeon to hold the kidnapping victims kept the story in the headlines for months.
Danielle never slept another night in the big house that she and Chad had shared with their kids.
Danielle never slept another night in the big house that she and Chad had shared with their kids.
She and her kids moved into her parents' home while she got her bearings. For the first few months after Chad's arrest, Danielle's dad would accompany her to the old house to continue excavating Chad's office. The police had already collected the evidence they needed, and she was left to clean up the rest.
She and her kids moved into her parents' home while she got her bearings. For the first few months after Chad's arrest, Danielle's dad would accompany her to the old house to continue excavating Chad's office. The police had already collected the evidence they needed, and she was left to clean up the rest.
He had forged my name. She also found lies about herself, stories she'd never heard before.
He had forged my name. She also found lies about herself, stories she'd never heard before.
Giving up her first love was hard, but she wanted to prioritize her independence. Danielle thrived in college. She loved her major, which was art, and she also loved going to Bible study on campus. That's where she met Chad.
Giving up her first love was hard, but she wanted to prioritize her independence. Danielle thrived in college. She loved her major, which was art, and she also loved going to Bible study on campus. That's where she met Chad.
Some of it was to different potential clients that he was going to have. And some things she discovered were just suspicious.
Some of it was to different potential clients that he was going to have. And some things she discovered were just suspicious.
Just strange things that we never found an answer to. One of the most haunting things she found in his office was a set of life insurance policies on everyone in their family. Policies she never knew existed.
Just strange things that we never found an answer to. One of the most haunting things she found in his office was a set of life insurance policies on everyone in their family. Policies she never knew existed.
Danielle didn't want his explanations. She cooperated with the police and prosecutors and gave them any evidence they needed.
Danielle didn't want his explanations. She cooperated with the police and prosecutors and gave them any evidence they needed.
He thought he was so smart. She sent him one letter in jail, where she said she would be praying for him, but needed to cut off communication. After that, she filed for divorce. But letters from Chad never stopped coming. Every few weeks, there'd be that distinctive envelope in their mailbox.
He thought he was so smart. She sent him one letter in jail, where she said she would be praying for him, but needed to cut off communication. After that, she filed for divorce. But letters from Chad never stopped coming. Every few weeks, there'd be that distinctive envelope in their mailbox.
She never replied, hoping his letters would finally stop coming. But one day, she got a letter that was different from the others.
She never replied, hoping his letters would finally stop coming. But one day, she got a letter that was different from the others.
She felt comfortable around Chad. It was easy, like they'd known each other for years.
She felt comfortable around Chad. It was easy, like they'd known each other for years.
While Chad sat in jail, Danielle was trying to rebuild her life. That's when she began to get strange letters in the mail. The return address just said the name Eloisa May. This is what the letters were about.
While Chad sat in jail, Danielle was trying to rebuild her life. That's when she began to get strange letters in the mail. The return address just said the name Eloisa May. This is what the letters were about.
Finally, Chad, or Eloisa May, got to the point.
Finally, Chad, or Eloisa May, got to the point.
From the start, Danielle was serious about Chad.
From the start, Danielle was serious about Chad.
The letters were four, five, six pages long, written in a tiny, neat handwriting that didn't look like Chad's at all. She assumed that either he was disguising his handwriting or got someone in the jail to write it for him while he dictated. Either way, the character Chad was putting on was so transparently manipulative.
The letters were four, five, six pages long, written in a tiny, neat handwriting that didn't look like Chad's at all. She assumed that either he was disguising his handwriting or got someone in the jail to write it for him while he dictated. Either way, the character Chad was putting on was so transparently manipulative.
She suspects that he made the character Southern to try to pull on Danielle's heartstrings because her grandmother was from the South. A little bit later, he goes...
She suspects that he made the character Southern to try to pull on Danielle's heartstrings because her grandmother was from the South. A little bit later, he goes...
Chad also used his extensive knowledge of the Bible to try and make Danielle question her decisions.
Chad also used his extensive knowledge of the Bible to try and make Danielle question her decisions.
The Eloisa May letters almost amused her, but they also felt like an insult. Did he really think she would fall for this? I think he had a very, very low opinion of me.
The Eloisa May letters almost amused her, but they also felt like an insult. Did he really think she would fall for this? I think he had a very, very low opinion of me.
She kept the Eloisa May letters to remind herself of just how delusional and scheming Chad really was. A year after his arrest, Chad pled guilty. But before he faced a sentencing hearing for the kidnapping, they had their divorce trial.
She kept the Eloisa May letters to remind herself of just how delusional and scheming Chad really was. A year after his arrest, Chad pled guilty. But before he faced a sentencing hearing for the kidnapping, they had their divorce trial.
Danielle was awarded full custody, and shortly after, she attended her ex-husband's sentencing hearing. It started with the victim's statements. There were no dry eyes in that courtroom. They were amazing people. The judge was stunned by Chad's crime, especially the premeditation that had gone into building the dungeon and the torture the victims endured.
Danielle was awarded full custody, and shortly after, she attended her ex-husband's sentencing hearing. It started with the victim's statements. There were no dry eyes in that courtroom. They were amazing people. The judge was stunned by Chad's crime, especially the premeditation that had gone into building the dungeon and the torture the victims endured.
The judge gave Chad the maximum sentence possible.
The judge gave Chad the maximum sentence possible.
Surprised, but grateful. She sees how dangerous Chad is and doesn't want him anywhere near her or their children ever again. She says she forgives him, but forgiveness can include boundaries.
Surprised, but grateful. She sees how dangerous Chad is and doesn't want him anywhere near her or their children ever again. She says she forgives him, but forgiveness can include boundaries.
Danielle decided to stay in that small town of Erie, Illinois. Chad's victims still live there too. And Danielle has seen them around town. I have seen them.
Danielle decided to stay in that small town of Erie, Illinois. Chad's victims still live there too. And Danielle has seen them around town. I have seen them.
I really don't know. She's even thought about reaching out to apologize for the pain her husband caused and to grieve with them. I would love to talk to them directly.
I really don't know. She's even thought about reaching out to apologize for the pain her husband caused and to grieve with them. I would love to talk to them directly.
Everything about him felt right. He was pursuing a degree in finance. He had dreams of starting his own business. And like her, he also wanted a big family. But most of all, she just loved being around him.
Everything about him felt right. He was pursuing a degree in finance. He had dreams of starting his own business. And like her, he also wanted a big family. But most of all, she just loved being around him.
Some people in their community just didn't believe that Danielle was in the dark about her husband's double life.
Some people in their community just didn't believe that Danielle was in the dark about her husband's double life.
Around town, she's noticed that people don't smile and wave as much as they used to.
Around town, she's noticed that people don't smile and wave as much as they used to.
side look like i know who you are don't look at me don't interact with me she's had to reckon with blaming herself for not knowing who her husband actually was and what he was really doing all those nights he claimed to be in the basement working i couldn't have known he didn't show that part of himself to me all i know is
side look like i know who you are don't look at me don't interact with me she's had to reckon with blaming herself for not knowing who her husband actually was and what he was really doing all those nights he claimed to be in the basement working i couldn't have known he didn't show that part of himself to me all i know is
As part of her healing process, she's learned about people like Chad and the tactics they use. Tactics that felt very familiar.
As part of her healing process, she's learned about people like Chad and the tactics they use. Tactics that felt very familiar.
And my mind would just be like, I don't even know what's going on. These kinds of things helped her understand how he had subtly manipulated her for so long. But that didn't ease the self-blame or the sense that she couldn't trust anyone around her or even herself.
And my mind would just be like, I don't even know what's going on. These kinds of things helped her understand how he had subtly manipulated her for so long. But that didn't ease the self-blame or the sense that she couldn't trust anyone around her or even herself.
You know, we would laugh about lots of things. I was just attracted to the way I felt around him. While they were dating, he went above and beyond to woo her.
You know, we would laugh about lots of things. I was just attracted to the way I felt around him. While they were dating, he went above and beyond to woo her.
Or is this just his presentation of who he says he is? For Danielle, trusting the wrong person, building a life with them left her all alone and a single parent.
Or is this just his presentation of who he says he is? For Danielle, trusting the wrong person, building a life with them left her all alone and a single parent.
She found work as an online English tutor. And she built a business writing and selling knitting patterns.
She found work as an online English tutor. And she built a business writing and selling knitting patterns.
After her divorce, she decided that she was done with romantic relationships.
After her divorce, she decided that she was done with romantic relationships.
But then she saw a post on Facebook from her high school boyfriend, Billy, the one who proposed to her 30 years ago. They'd since drifted apart and hadn't talked in nearly a decade. But in his post, she saw that his fiance had recently passed away. So she reached out to lend support.
But then she saw a post on Facebook from her high school boyfriend, Billy, the one who proposed to her 30 years ago. They'd since drifted apart and hadn't talked in nearly a decade. But in his post, she saw that his fiance had recently passed away. So she reached out to lend support.
I think she knew before I knew that I was starting to fall in love again. Danielle and Billy planned a FaceTime call where they would see each other for the first time in years.
I think she knew before I knew that I was starting to fall in love again. Danielle and Billy planned a FaceTime call where they would see each other for the first time in years.
It's not who she is, but Chad said she deserved the best. And it was flattering. After about two years of dating, he made a particularly grand gesture. He bought her an expensive dress, rented a limousine, and took them to a dinner theater.
It's not who she is, but Chad said she deserved the best. And it was flattering. After about two years of dating, he made a particularly grand gesture. He bought her an expensive dress, rented a limousine, and took them to a dinner theater.
After a few months of dating again, they got married, surrounded by their families at the Thanksgiving table.
After a few months of dating again, they got married, surrounded by their families at the Thanksgiving table.
Wouldn't have it any other way. We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story? Knowing that you're not alone is so helpful.
Wouldn't have it any other way. We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story? Knowing that you're not alone is so helpful.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
She said yes. He brought her out of her comfort zone, and it felt like a fairy tale. I was 100%.
She said yes. He brought her out of her comfort zone, and it felt like a fairy tale. I was 100%.
Chad was involved in every step of the wedding planning, which Danielle loved. And he also wanted to go to pre-marriage counseling to discuss their expectations.
Chad was involved in every step of the wedding planning, which Danielle loved. And he also wanted to go to pre-marriage counseling to discuss their expectations.
We did know that I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, so that was talked about. Danielle had been managing her own money in her early 20s. And although she was good at it, it was a relief to be marrying someone who had expertise in finance. It made her feel safe. And so they agreed that while she would manage the household, Chad would manage the money.
We did know that I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, so that was talked about. Danielle had been managing her own money in her early 20s. And although she was good at it, it was a relief to be marrying someone who had expertise in finance. It made her feel safe. And so they agreed that while she would manage the household, Chad would manage the money.
She was happy with this arrangement. She's a do-it-yourself kind of person. It's an attitude that's well-suited to raising kids and running the household.
She was happy with this arrangement. She's a do-it-yourself kind of person. It's an attitude that's well-suited to raising kids and running the household.
After they got married, the couple decided to move to Chad's hometown in Illinois. To call it a small town is an understatement. The entire population could fit in one high school football stadium. Well, the town we live in, Erie, is only 1,900. It's small. Small but perfectly suited to the life that they were building, a life that centered around family and community.
After they got married, the couple decided to move to Chad's hometown in Illinois. To call it a small town is an understatement. The entire population could fit in one high school football stadium. Well, the town we live in, Erie, is only 1,900. It's small. Small but perfectly suited to the life that they were building, a life that centered around family and community.
Plus, Chad had grown up there, so he knew nearly everyone in town. And everyone seemed to adore him. In fact, he'd been the high school valedictorian. Once they moved back to Erie, the couple also joined Chad's church, the church he grew up in. We were really involved with that church, and his parents went to that church too, and we led a Sunday school together as a couple.
Plus, Chad had grown up there, so he knew nearly everyone in town. And everyone seemed to adore him. In fact, he'd been the high school valedictorian. Once they moved back to Erie, the couple also joined Chad's church, the church he grew up in. We were really involved with that church, and his parents went to that church too, and we led a Sunday school together as a couple.
Their life was falling into place. A happy marriage, a strong foundation based on shared values, a community that supported them, and a church they felt welcomed by. And Chad was making progress in his career. He began the certification process to become a financial advisor. He wanted to start his own firm.
Their life was falling into place. A happy marriage, a strong foundation based on shared values, a community that supported them, and a church they felt welcomed by. And Chad was making progress in his career. He began the certification process to become a financial advisor. He wanted to start his own firm.
She was proud of him. And for the time being, she kept working too.
She was proud of him. And for the time being, she kept working too.
But conceiving their first baby didn't happen as quickly as Danielle hoped. The months turned into a year. And during that year, Chad made a shocking confession.
But conceiving their first baby didn't happen as quickly as Danielle hoped. The months turned into a year. And during that year, Chad made a shocking confession.
She asked him point blank if he was gay. He said no, he wasn't. She wanted more details about what actually happened, who it was with, and what they did.
She asked him point blank if he was gay. He said no, he wasn't. She wanted more details about what actually happened, who it was with, and what they did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Something that we're constantly confronting in true crime is having to tell these hyperbolic versions of true crime stories when in reality, the more relatable and important ones are the ones that are kind of in the everyday. I remember when we were covering Ashley Litton's case in Riverton, Utah for Betrayal Season 2.
Something that we're constantly confronting in true crime is having to tell these hyperbolic versions of true crime stories when in reality, the more relatable and important ones are the ones that are kind of in the everyday. I remember when we were covering Ashley Litton's case in Riverton, Utah for Betrayal Season 2.
He reached out to ICAC, which is an Internet Crimes Against Children task force that every state has. And I remember one of the task force members asked, why are you covering this case? Like, I deal with, you know, perpetrators that are 10 times worse than Jason Linton. Why this one? And my response was, I don't want the hyperbolic version of
He reached out to ICAC, which is an Internet Crimes Against Children task force that every state has. And I remember one of the task force members asked, why are you covering this case? Like, I deal with, you know, perpetrators that are 10 times worse than Jason Linton. Why this one? And my response was, I don't want the hyperbolic version of
CSAM case you know I want to meet people in a very average everyday story because that's actually what's happening and so I feel like that's the same for a lot of these mothers who are if they're on the news it's like this monster of a mother that did this and it's like you know we have to hear about the extremes instead of leaning into the reality of what's happening yeah
CSAM case you know I want to meet people in a very average everyday story because that's actually what's happening and so I feel like that's the same for a lot of these mothers who are if they're on the news it's like this monster of a mother that did this and it's like you know we have to hear about the extremes instead of leaning into the reality of what's happening yeah
I think one of the things that I also felt was really relatable, and the circumstances are so different, but just knowing your sister's story and having to go in front of the judge in family court, like you're dealing with family court and criminal court are two separate things. And the... issues that I've seen a lot of the women that I deal with on betrayal having to navigate the criminal side.
I think one of the things that I also felt was really relatable, and the circumstances are so different, but just knowing your sister's story and having to go in front of the judge in family court, like you're dealing with family court and criminal court are two separate things. And the... issues that I've seen a lot of the women that I deal with on betrayal having to navigate the criminal side.
And once that's over and, you know, the father of their children are released, then they're dealing with family court, either in their divorce or child support or dealing with visitation or It is a whole other ball of wax where parents have a ton of rights, rightfully so, but they're in situations where kids are at risk. It's a really scary system because they are two separate entities.
And once that's over and, you know, the father of their children are released, then they're dealing with family court, either in their divorce or child support or dealing with visitation or It is a whole other ball of wax where parents have a ton of rights, rightfully so, but they're in situations where kids are at risk. It's a really scary system because they are two separate entities.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning. Last week, we shared Andrea Dunlop's story. On this week's episode, Andrea and I sit down for a conversation about true crime podcasting. We get into what this work means for us and how we approach these stories. We hope you enjoy it. Andrea, thank you so much for joining me. I'm a listener and also a huge fan of Nobody Should Believe Me, which is your show.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning. Last week, we shared Andrea Dunlop's story. On this week's episode, Andrea and I sit down for a conversation about true crime podcasting. We get into what this work means for us and how we approach these stories. We hope you enjoy it. Andrea, thank you so much for joining me. I'm a listener and also a huge fan of Nobody Should Believe Me, which is your show.
Yeah. In the case of Stacey Rutherford and Tyler from season three of Betrayal, I think the courts got it right. So for people that don't know, Stacey was married to a man named Justin and he was a doctor in Redding, Pennsylvania. She had two children in a previous marriage and then met Justin and they got married. They had two kids of their own.
Yeah. In the case of Stacey Rutherford and Tyler from season three of Betrayal, I think the courts got it right. So for people that don't know, Stacey was married to a man named Justin and he was a doctor in Redding, Pennsylvania. She had two children in a previous marriage and then met Justin and they got married. They had two kids of their own.
And he was, by all accounts, a great husband, an incredible doctor, beloved by his community. Turns out that he was abusing Stacy's son from her first marriage, his stepson, since he was 11. And... Tyler didn't disclose until he was, I want to say, 17. So a long time. Yeah.
And he was, by all accounts, a great husband, an incredible doctor, beloved by his community. Turns out that he was abusing Stacy's son from her first marriage, his stepson, since he was 11. And... Tyler didn't disclose until he was, I want to say, 17. So a long time. Yeah.
And, you know, Justin also tried to hire a hitman while he was in prison to murder Tyler so that he wouldn't testify in court, which is what we cover in season three of Betrayal. And what the judge did is not only did he get He'll be basically in jail for the rest of his life. I don't want to misquote what his sentencing was.
And, you know, Justin also tried to hire a hitman while he was in prison to murder Tyler so that he wouldn't testify in court, which is what we cover in season three of Betrayal. And what the judge did is not only did he get He'll be basically in jail for the rest of his life. I don't want to misquote what his sentencing was.
But he isn't allowed to speak to his biological children or have any contact with the family until he's done his probation. Basically, for the rest of his life. And so I remember talking to Stacey and Tyler and them feeling like really complicated emotions because they deeply love Justin. Like the person that they knew as a human being, like Tyler loved his stepdad.
But he isn't allowed to speak to his biological children or have any contact with the family until he's done his probation. Basically, for the rest of his life. And so I remember talking to Stacey and Tyler and them feeling like really complicated emotions because they deeply love Justin. Like the person that they knew as a human being, like Tyler loved his stepdad.
But then there was the monster, the abuser. They were two different people to him. And that was a scenario where the court really contemplated a lifetime of abuse and grooming and narcissistic behavior and just got it and knocked it out of the park. And I was like, heck, yeah, like this is a Pennsylvania. Like, I was really proud. So, yeah, like sometimes we talk about things getting wrong.
But then there was the monster, the abuser. They were two different people to him. And that was a scenario where the court really contemplated a lifetime of abuse and grooming and narcissistic behavior and just got it and knocked it out of the park. And I was like, heck, yeah, like this is a Pennsylvania. Like, I was really proud. So, yeah, like sometimes we talk about things getting wrong.
Like that was a scenario where I think the courts got it right. Yeah.
Like that was a scenario where I think the courts got it right. Yeah.
And we just shared your story on Betrayal Weekly. And I'm just so glad our two shows are collaborating because I think that Munchausen by proxy, which is what you cover in your show, shares a lot in common with betrayal. Earlier, we were joking that this conversation is kind of like the Andrea Andrea True Crime Summit, but that's really what it feels like.
And we just shared your story on Betrayal Weekly. And I'm just so glad our two shows are collaborating because I think that Munchausen by proxy, which is what you cover in your show, shares a lot in common with betrayal. Earlier, we were joking that this conversation is kind of like the Andrea Andrea True Crime Summit, but that's really what it feels like.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
We're working on a case for season four of Betrayal about this woman out of Colorado Springs. She was with her husband for 20 years. She lived like a typical American life. She thought that she was just basically living like the suburban dream. And I won't give all the details because we air in May. But things unravel and the family is torn apart.
We're working on a case for season four of Betrayal about this woman out of Colorado Springs. She was with her husband for 20 years. She lived like a typical American life. She thought that she was just basically living like the suburban dream. And I won't give all the details because we air in May. But things unravel and the family is torn apart.
And she has to look back on 20 years and basically... readjust her sense of reality because he shares things, discloses things that completely alters core memories in her life where she's living and thinks one thing is happening, where there's another almost like parallel universe where he's operating and she has to hold both realities at the same time.
And she has to look back on 20 years and basically... readjust her sense of reality because he shares things, discloses things that completely alters core memories in her life where she's living and thinks one thing is happening, where there's another almost like parallel universe where he's operating and she has to hold both realities at the same time.
So I'm hoping we can really compare notes about what it's like working in this space.
So I'm hoping we can really compare notes about what it's like working in this space.
She often says perception is my reality and that really is true. And I remember because I had listened to your first season so long ago, I was like, let me listen to this again. Like, you know, Hope's family and then your family. I was thinking about you guys and like you having to look back. Like once things became clearer to you or things were coming into focus.
She often says perception is my reality and that really is true. And I remember because I had listened to your first season so long ago, I was like, let me listen to this again. Like, you know, Hope's family and then your family. I was thinking about you guys and like you having to look back. Like once things became clearer to you or things were coming into focus.
How are you looking back on that time and how painful was it to try to merge what you thought you were experiencing and then the reality that you now learn? It's just it feels like those memories start to hold on to you in a way that you're like, I don't even know what to do.
How are you looking back on that time and how painful was it to try to merge what you thought you were experiencing and then the reality that you now learn? It's just it feels like those memories start to hold on to you in a way that you're like, I don't even know what to do.
Right. And now you're estranged. You guys haven't talked in over a decade.
Right. And now you're estranged. You guys haven't talked in over a decade.
You know, I often joke that I'm a recovering TV executive. And so I hail from the TV space, but I work for a company called Glass Entertainment Group, and we specialize in reality TV and documentaries. And for about seven and a half, eight years, I was overseeing our business department. So I was the executive in charge of production.
You know, I often joke that I'm a recovering TV executive. And so I hail from the TV space, but I work for a company called Glass Entertainment Group, and we specialize in reality TV and documentaries. And for about seven and a half, eight years, I was overseeing our business department. So I was the executive in charge of production.
Like, I'm a twin. And so, you know, my relationship with my sister is... Next to having my own children, that's the most important relationship in my life always will be. I entered the world with her. I did every fundamental first with her. I could imagine losing my sister or not being able to share in critical moments. It's a profound loss, that relationship with a sister. It is.
Like, I'm a twin. And so, you know, my relationship with my sister is... Next to having my own children, that's the most important relationship in my life always will be. I entered the world with her. I did every fundamental first with her. I could imagine losing my sister or not being able to share in critical moments. It's a profound loss, that relationship with a sister. It is.
Yeah. Again, it's the complexity of the human experience. That's kind of like our driving force at Glass Podcast and what we do with Betrayal. You guys have that in your DNA, too. Like, I've heard it, and it's been evident in every season that you guys have done.
Yeah. Again, it's the complexity of the human experience. That's kind of like our driving force at Glass Podcast and what we do with Betrayal. You guys have that in your DNA, too. Like, I've heard it, and it's been evident in every season that you guys have done.
I got to give Hulu and ABC so much credit. I mean, this is like a big platform and some of these stories are really hard to tell. And it's time where people like afraid to go there. I'm like really impressed. I mean, season three is tough, but they saw a landscape. I mean, this past year, the Menendez brothers were all over the place.
I got to give Hulu and ABC so much credit. I mean, this is like a big platform and some of these stories are really hard to tell. And it's time where people like afraid to go there. I'm like really impressed. I mean, season three is tough, but they saw a landscape. I mean, this past year, the Menendez brothers were all over the place.
Absolutely. And for them to see that people are actually open to hearing about that and discussing that and just really sitting with that and taking Tyler and Stacey's story and pursuing that for the Hulu documentary is really exciting because it's only going to help dismantle the stigma around this issue. And I'm really proud to work with partners like that. I truly am.
Absolutely. And for them to see that people are actually open to hearing about that and discussing that and just really sitting with that and taking Tyler and Stacey's story and pursuing that for the Hulu documentary is really exciting because it's only going to help dismantle the stigma around this issue. And I'm really proud to work with partners like that. I truly am.
So I did all the boring things in TV, which is like the budget, the financing, like all the hard stuff. And my colleague Ben and I were constantly working through legal deals with our development department. And we were seeing great stories getting passed by TV executives and networks.
So I did all the boring things in TV, which is like the budget, the financing, like all the hard stuff. And my colleague Ben and I were constantly working through legal deals with our development department. And we were seeing great stories getting passed by TV executives and networks.
It's all it all works, works together. So your book that just came out, this is your first book. Like intro to nonfiction, right? Or do I have that wrong?
It's all it all works, works together. So your book that just came out, this is your first book. Like intro to nonfiction, right? Or do I have that wrong?
We just got like straight in the deep end, which I love. I could talk to you for hours. Andrea, thank you so much for coming on our show and sharing your story with us. Thanks for listening. Next week, we're sharing the first episode in Andrea's latest season of Nobody Should Believe Me. It's about Sophie Hartman, a mother who adopted two girls from Zambia.
We just got like straight in the deep end, which I love. I could talk to you for hours. Andrea, thank you so much for coming on our show and sharing your story with us. Thanks for listening. Next week, we're sharing the first episode in Andrea's latest season of Nobody Should Believe Me. It's about Sophie Hartman, a mother who adopted two girls from Zambia.
But the story takes a tragic turn when one of her daughters becomes terribly ill. So stay tuned, and we'll be back next week with that episode. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support.
But the story takes a tragic turn when one of her daughters becomes terribly ill. So stay tuned, and we'll be back next week with that episode. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support.
One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And one story that came across our desk, we were working with Kim Goldman, who is the sister of Ron Goldman, who was murdered by OJ Simpson. And we were trying to sell something in TV with her, but a lot of TV networks weren't interested in the project unless OJ was involved or OJ was attached or we could guarantee an interview with OJ. And this was back when OJ was still living.
And one story that came across our desk, we were working with Kim Goldman, who is the sister of Ron Goldman, who was murdered by OJ Simpson. And we were trying to sell something in TV with her, but a lot of TV networks weren't interested in the project unless OJ was involved or OJ was attached or we could guarantee an interview with OJ. And this was back when OJ was still living.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I think he had just gotten out of prison and was living in Vegas at the time. But my colleagues and I really believe that there was a story here even without O.J. 's voice. So we decided to make it a podcast. And instead of telling the O.J. Simpson story, we told the story of people who lived it. And so that's how we got started in the podcast space.
I think he had just gotten out of prison and was living in Vegas at the time. But my colleagues and I really believe that there was a story here even without O.J. 's voice. So we decided to make it a podcast. And instead of telling the O.J. Simpson story, we told the story of people who lived it. And so that's how we got started in the podcast space.
It's all kind of related. So Jen Faison is the subject of season one in her marriage and how the marriage unraveled. But she works in television. She's a television executive producer. So we kind of are in the same universe. And Jen had heard Confronting O.J. Simpson and reached out to her agent and her agent reached out to me and my colleague, Ben, for an initial conversation.
It's all kind of related. So Jen Faison is the subject of season one in her marriage and how the marriage unraveled. But she works in television. She's a television executive producer. So we kind of are in the same universe. And Jen had heard Confronting O.J. Simpson and reached out to her agent and her agent reached out to me and my colleague, Ben, for an initial conversation.
But the universe has an interesting way of working, because at this time I was getting out of a relationship. I had moved out of my boyfriend's house. I had discovered a lot of deception, not to the magnitude that Jen had. And I was kind of recovering from understanding, like, why was I in this relationship? Why was I ignoring a lot of signs?
But the universe has an interesting way of working, because at this time I was getting out of a relationship. I had moved out of my boyfriend's house. I had discovered a lot of deception, not to the magnitude that Jen had. And I was kind of recovering from understanding, like, why was I in this relationship? Why was I ignoring a lot of signs?
Was I ignoring it or was it like, you know, all of these questions that were coming to the surface. So it was like I was meeting Jen at the perfect time. I couldn't relate to the magnitude of what Jen was going through. But I knew like as it was like, I don't even want to say as a woman, as a woman, but as a human being, I understood the pain when she pitched me her story.
Was I ignoring it or was it like, you know, all of these questions that were coming to the surface. So it was like I was meeting Jen at the perfect time. I couldn't relate to the magnitude of what Jen was going through. But I knew like as it was like, I don't even want to say as a woman, as a woman, but as a human being, I understood the pain when she pitched me her story.
I understood her anger and her confusion. And I found like this emotional access. And I thought if we can maybe do something with that, people will relate and maybe heal. And so just that relatability and that timing of it just so happened to work out.
I understood her anger and her confusion. And I found like this emotional access. And I thought if we can maybe do something with that, people will relate and maybe heal. And so just that relatability and that timing of it just so happened to work out.
Yeah. And that was my worry producing There and Gone, which came out this past summer in 2024. And I have to give iHeart a lot of credit because we pitched them this story and there wasn't an ending and we couldn't guarantee that we would find or solve this case. And so you're taking a lot of risk.
Yeah. And that was my worry producing There and Gone, which came out this past summer in 2024. And I have to give iHeart a lot of credit because we pitched them this story and there wasn't an ending and we couldn't guarantee that we would find or solve this case. And so you're taking a lot of risk.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
And then the partnerships that you make with distributors are also taking a lot of risk for what's the payoff? You know, what's the audience going to leave thinking? Are they going to walk away feeling satisfied? And, you know, these are people like we're studying and we're exploring stories of people and their loss and their trauma and their grief.
And then the partnerships that you make with distributors are also taking a lot of risk for what's the payoff? You know, what's the audience going to leave thinking? Are they going to walk away feeling satisfied? And, you know, these are people like we're studying and we're exploring stories of people and their loss and their trauma and their grief.
And so we're not always going to get a payoff that makes sense to everybody. You know, I like telling stories that really show the complexity of the human experience. And I think There and Gone is an example of that. Yeah.
And so we're not always going to get a payoff that makes sense to everybody. You know, I like telling stories that really show the complexity of the human experience. And I think There and Gone is an example of that. Yeah.
Sure. It's the story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo. 20 years ago, two 30-somethings just literally vanished off of South Street in Philadelphia, which is basically like the Bourbon Street of Philadelphia, the busiest place for nightlife. They were seen leaving a bar and then never seen again. And then until this day, no one knows what happened. Was it an accident? Was it murder for hire?
Sure. It's the story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo. 20 years ago, two 30-somethings just literally vanished off of South Street in Philadelphia, which is basically like the Bourbon Street of Philadelphia, the busiest place for nightlife. They were seen leaving a bar and then never seen again. And then until this day, no one knows what happened. Was it an accident? Was it murder for hire?
And so I remember this because I was, I think, a senior in high school. And it was terrifying because one of the victims, his parents have a bakery that I grew up going to. And both of their families look so much like mine in different ways. They do Sunday dinner. I come from an Italian family. We do Sunday dinner. You know, they gamble on Sunday over football bets.
And so I remember this because I was, I think, a senior in high school. And it was terrifying because one of the victims, his parents have a bakery that I grew up going to. And both of their families look so much like mine in different ways. They do Sunday dinner. I come from an Italian family. We do Sunday dinner. You know, they gamble on Sunday over football bets.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Like I'm wearing my Eagles jersey. Like this feels like this could be my own cousin this happened to. So it was very personal to me. And so it was just this loss that kind of
Like I'm wearing my Eagles jersey. Like this feels like this could be my own cousin this happened to. So it was very personal to me. And so it was just this loss that kind of
reverberated throughout our entire community and continues because how do two people in their mid-30s just vanish just literally into thin air and when we were exploring doing the story I thought the families would be very interested but we would struggle with law enforcement
reverberated throughout our entire community and continues because how do two people in their mid-30s just vanish just literally into thin air and when we were exploring doing the story I thought the families would be very interested but we would struggle with law enforcement
But then I soon realized that the FBI really needed our help because the FBI knows that the more coverage they can get of this case, more people will be able to like call in and feel like, let me just do my part. Let me 20 years later, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to make the phone call. I'm going to say what I know and be done with it. And.
But then I soon realized that the FBI really needed our help because the FBI knows that the more coverage they can get of this case, more people will be able to like call in and feel like, let me just do my part. Let me 20 years later, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to make the phone call. I'm going to say what I know and be done with it. And.
I live in this city and there are parts of this city where this crime isn't a big question mark. There are parts of this city and neighborhoods in this city where people know exactly what happened or they feel like it's a fact. They communicate it like it's a fact. I know who did it. I know why it's done. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.
I live in this city and there are parts of this city where this crime isn't a big question mark. There are parts of this city and neighborhoods in this city where people know exactly what happened or they feel like it's a fact. They communicate it like it's a fact. I know who did it. I know why it's done. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.
Like how a whole neighborhood in one city, there's like this understood rumor of what happened to two random people that have no connection. And that was the neighborhood in which I lived. So... To me, it was like, I just want to help these families. You know, we didn't solve the crime. Yet. But there was enough people that actually wrote into the FBI for them to reopen and assign new agents.
Like how a whole neighborhood in one city, there's like this understood rumor of what happened to two random people that have no connection. And that was the neighborhood in which I lived. So... To me, it was like, I just want to help these families. You know, we didn't solve the crime. Yet. But there was enough people that actually wrote into the FBI for them to reopen and assign new agents.
So I feel like I did my job.
So I feel like I did my job.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Well, the first thing that just to interject, I think one of the biggest things that I feel like we both, you know, Betrayal, trauma and deception is one thing. Your show covers factitious disorder. And although they're very different, there's so many commonalities between people who live through or have.
Well, the first thing that just to interject, I think one of the biggest things that I feel like we both, you know, Betrayal, trauma and deception is one thing. Your show covers factitious disorder. And although they're very different, there's so many commonalities between people who live through or have.
a relationship with Munchausens and Munchausens by proxy, and people who experience deception and betrayal. The topics we cover on betrayal are extreme, but sadly, they're not uncommon. And in season three, we really focus on male sexual abuse. And we learn that one in six men have experienced this issue. But the really scary reality is
a relationship with Munchausens and Munchausens by proxy, and people who experience deception and betrayal. The topics we cover on betrayal are extreme, but sadly, they're not uncommon. And in season three, we really focus on male sexual abuse. And we learn that one in six men have experienced this issue. But the really scary reality is
It actually is probably more, but it just goes unreported because of the stigma around it. And I just feel like These are two taboo issues, you know, Munchausen syndrome by proxy. And to take that seriously and talk about it to help dismantle that stigma, it's such a large hurdle.
It actually is probably more, but it just goes unreported because of the stigma around it. And I just feel like These are two taboo issues, you know, Munchausen syndrome by proxy. And to take that seriously and talk about it to help dismantle that stigma, it's such a large hurdle.
From her first date with Neil, she knew he wasn't a keeper. She had no idea he could be this cruel. Whoa, this is not normal.
From her first date with Neil, she knew he wasn't a keeper. She had no idea he could be this cruel. Whoa, this is not normal.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
But Neil wasn't in shock, and he wasn't in denial. Tina didn't know it at the time, but this was something far more insidious.
But Neil wasn't in shock, and he wasn't in denial. Tina didn't know it at the time, but this was something far more insidious.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When Tina Maya told the man she'd been casually dating she was pregnant, he became a different person. Neil Lawman started sending her callous voice messages about how the baby could not possibly be his. He even accused Tina of harassment. Regardless of his disturbing reaction, Tina wanted to have the baby on her own. She was sure of that.
When Tina Maya told the man she'd been casually dating she was pregnant, he became a different person. Neil Lawman started sending her callous voice messages about how the baby could not possibly be his. He even accused Tina of harassment. Regardless of his disturbing reaction, Tina wanted to have the baby on her own. She was sure of that.
So after his vitriolic messages, she drew a boundary with Neil.
So after his vitriolic messages, she drew a boundary with Neil.
No worries. As far as Tina was concerned, Neil was out of the picture. And I went on. Obviously, I had a lot to deal with. She blocked him and moved forward with the rest of her pregnancy. It wouldn't be her first time as a single mom. Tina's friends and family rallied around her to provide support. And she needed it, especially when the baby was born.
No worries. As far as Tina was concerned, Neil was out of the picture. And I went on. Obviously, I had a lot to deal with. She blocked him and moved forward with the rest of her pregnancy. It wouldn't be her first time as a single mom. Tina's friends and family rallied around her to provide support. And she needed it, especially when the baby was born.
Her newborn baby, Josephine, was in critical condition. She had a severe lung infection. The doctor wanted to prepare for a blood transfusion.
Her newborn baby, Josephine, was in critical condition. She had a severe lung infection. The doctor wanted to prepare for a blood transfusion.
But half wasn't good enough, especially considering Neal's history of cancer.
But half wasn't good enough, especially considering Neal's history of cancer.
Instead of reaching out to Neal, she decided to call one of his friends, the only friend of his she knew how to reach.
Instead of reaching out to Neal, she decided to call one of his friends, the only friend of his she knew how to reach.
And then while Tina was lying in her hospital bed, she got a text from Neil.
And then while Tina was lying in her hospital bed, she got a text from Neil.
But Neil refused. He was not interested in helping the baby. He was more concerned with lashing out at Tina.
But Neil refused. He was not interested in helping the baby. He was more concerned with lashing out at Tina.
Up until this moment, she'd planned to raise the baby completely on her own without asking Neil for a single penny. But after he showed his true colors, she decided, You know what?
Up until this moment, she'd planned to raise the baby completely on her own without asking Neil for a single penny. But after he showed his true colors, she decided, You know what?
Bye-bye. She figured the courts could handle Neil and she and her family could move on. Luckily, her newborn daughter recovered without needing a blood transfusion. After a week of being in hospital, we were both able to go home. When she got home with Josephine, or Fifi as she calls her, their house was full of joy. Her son, who was eight, became a doting big brother.
Bye-bye. She figured the courts could handle Neil and she and her family could move on. Luckily, her newborn daughter recovered without needing a blood transfusion. After a week of being in hospital, we were both able to go home. When she got home with Josephine, or Fifi as she calls her, their house was full of joy. Her son, who was eight, became a doting big brother.
Now with two children to support, Tina had to return to work just two weeks later.
Now with two children to support, Tina had to return to work just two weeks later.
One day while she was on her way to work, she decided to call the UK's Child Support Agency to get the paperwork started for child support. After they looked into Tina's claim, the agency contacted her with surprising news about Neil.
One day while she was on her way to work, she decided to call the UK's Child Support Agency to get the paperwork started for child support. After they looked into Tina's claim, the agency contacted her with surprising news about Neil.
meaning that Neil was on unemployment. But that didn't add up to Tina. She met him at a tech conference. He owned his own company. She'd met his coworkers. She tried to explain this to the child support agency.
meaning that Neil was on unemployment. But that didn't add up to Tina. She met him at a tech conference. He owned his own company. She'd met his coworkers. She tried to explain this to the child support agency.
But the government didn't have records of his businesses or income. And that wasn't all.
But the government didn't have records of his businesses or income. And that wasn't all.
Neil had three other children? What about his story of being infertile? Tina went into investigation mode, searching for business and personal records of Neil Lawman. I went all the way back to one from a number of years ago. In Neal's records, she found the name of a woman, someone who'd changed her last name to Lawman. So I was like, okay, that must be his ex-wife.
Neil had three other children? What about his story of being infertile? Tina went into investigation mode, searching for business and personal records of Neil Lawman. I went all the way back to one from a number of years ago. In Neal's records, she found the name of a woman, someone who'd changed her last name to Lawman. So I was like, okay, that must be his ex-wife.
If she is an ex-wife, it might be his current wife. Maybe this was the woman he'd been married to in the States, but Tina didn't really know what to believe anymore.
If she is an ex-wife, it might be his current wife. Maybe this was the woman he'd been married to in the States, but Tina didn't really know what to believe anymore.
Looking at the photos of two little girls, clearly related to Neil, made Tina's head spin. At the very least, she knew she'd found the right person.
Looking at the photos of two little girls, clearly related to Neil, made Tina's head spin. At the very least, she knew she'd found the right person.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Tina Maya is a successful e-commerce consultant in the UK. In 2016, a casual romantic fling turned her entire world upside down. It showed her a dark side of humanity. One that she'd never seen before.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Tina Maya is a successful e-commerce consultant in the UK. In 2016, a casual romantic fling turned her entire world upside down. It showed her a dark side of humanity. One that she'd never seen before.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When Tina applied for child support, she discovered a trove of information about her daughter's biological father, Neil Lawman. First, that he was on unemployment and claimed he was unable to make child support payments. He wasn't the high-flying tech guy he'd pretended to be. Second, that he already owed child support for three other children.
When Tina applied for child support, she discovered a trove of information about her daughter's biological father, Neil Lawman. First, that he was on unemployment and claimed he was unable to make child support payments. He wasn't the high-flying tech guy he'd pretended to be. Second, that he already owed child support for three other children.
The whole story about him being infertile from prostate cancer was a complete lie, an elaborate deception from night one. When Tina began looking into Neil's background, she found the name of his ex-wife. We're going to call her Wendy. Wendy.
The whole story about him being infertile from prostate cancer was a complete lie, an elaborate deception from night one. When Tina began looking into Neil's background, she found the name of his ex-wife. We're going to call her Wendy. Wendy.
And his ex-wife had a story to tell. She'd been with him for 10 years. They had two daughters together. Then one day, Neil walked out, leaving her with a significant amount of debt.
And his ex-wife had a story to tell. She'd been with him for 10 years. They had two daughters together. Then one day, Neil walked out, leaving her with a significant amount of debt.
Neil had claimed that his wife cheated on him, that she left him because he was infertile. He said she was still back in America. But it turns out, Wendy very much lived in the UK. In fact, she lived in the same neighborhood as Tina. Now, Tina could safely assume everything he'd ever told her was a lie.
Neil had claimed that his wife cheated on him, that she left him because he was infertile. He said she was still back in America. But it turns out, Wendy very much lived in the UK. In fact, she lived in the same neighborhood as Tina. Now, Tina could safely assume everything he'd ever told her was a lie.
Tina and Wendy agreed to meet for dinner, to talk in person.
Tina and Wendy agreed to meet for dinner, to talk in person.
Right away, Tina was struck by how familiar Wendy seemed. The two women had the same energy, independent, confident, and outgoing. Wendy had some important information for Tina, things she needed to know. You see, after Neil left her, Wendy found out about two more children, two sons he had fathered before her daughters were born.
Right away, Tina was struck by how familiar Wendy seemed. The two women had the same energy, independent, confident, and outgoing. Wendy had some important information for Tina, things she needed to know. You see, after Neil left her, Wendy found out about two more children, two sons he had fathered before her daughters were born.
Her story is also one of community. Along the way, she found a group of other women who'd been deceived and betrayed by the same man. Tina's become their spokesperson. And the spokesperson for a much larger story. Tina was raised to be opinionated and strong-willed.
Her story is also one of community. Along the way, she found a group of other women who'd been deceived and betrayed by the same man. Tina's become their spokesperson. And the spokesperson for a much larger story. Tina was raised to be opinionated and strong-willed.
Tina stared at Wendy, processing the reality that her daughter was one of five. How many more kids were out there? And what would that mean for her daughter, for their daughters? It was a reality Wendy had barely begun to confront herself.
Tina stared at Wendy, processing the reality that her daughter was one of five. How many more kids were out there? And what would that mean for her daughter, for their daughters? It was a reality Wendy had barely begun to confront herself.
Since Neil left Wendy, he'd barely spoken to their two young daughters.
Since Neil left Wendy, he'd barely spoken to their two young daughters.
Tina and Wendy ordered another round of martinis and talked until the restaurant closed. Before they said goodbye, Tina got an idea. Let's do something a little bit funny.
Tina and Wendy ordered another round of martinis and talked until the restaurant closed. Before they said goodbye, Tina got an idea. Let's do something a little bit funny.
Neil started sending unhinged emails to Tina, to Wendy, even to his ex-father-in-law.
Neil started sending unhinged emails to Tina, to Wendy, even to his ex-father-in-law.
Allegedly, he'd been implicated in a multi-million dollar fraud scheme. And there was more. In total, he had 11 offenses and five convictions. But he never served any prison time. Like Teflon, nothing sticks. After Tina reported Neil to the police, she waited for an update. She'd given them all the information she had on him. And the officers said they'd call her when they made an arrest.
Allegedly, he'd been implicated in a multi-million dollar fraud scheme. And there was more. In total, he had 11 offenses and five convictions. But he never served any prison time. Like Teflon, nothing sticks. After Tina reported Neil to the police, she waited for an update. She'd given them all the information she had on him. And the officers said they'd call her when they made an arrest.
But months went by without word.
But months went by without word.
Again, that's just a theory. If the police weren't going to give her answers or justice, she was going to find them herself. So she reached out to Wendy. And together, they came up with another idea.
Again, that's just a theory. If the police weren't going to give her answers or justice, she was going to find them herself. So she reached out to Wendy. And together, they came up with another idea.
As the group grew, Neil tried to get it taken down, but Facebook declared it legitimate public interest. Through this page, they discovered that Neil was allegedly running quite a few schemes at the same time. There were lots of posts about his alleged shady business dealings. When it came to starting new businesses, the posts suggested that Neil had an M.O. He would...
As the group grew, Neil tried to get it taken down, but Facebook declared it legitimate public interest. Through this page, they discovered that Neil was allegedly running quite a few schemes at the same time. There were lots of posts about his alleged shady business dealings. When it came to starting new businesses, the posts suggested that Neil had an M.O. He would...
And then there were all the women he'd ghosted, women he'd met online and started serious, long-distance relationships with. There was a diplomat he'd had an online relationship with for years. When this woman finally booked a trip to meet him in person, he said he would pick her up at the airport. But when she landed, he wasn't there. She tried to call him, and she realized he blocked her.
And then there were all the women he'd ghosted, women he'd met online and started serious, long-distance relationships with. There was a diplomat he'd had an online relationship with for years. When this woman finally booked a trip to meet him in person, he said he would pick her up at the airport. But when she landed, he wasn't there. She tried to call him, and she realized he blocked her.
She never heard from him again.
She never heard from him again.
These stories were bizarre. Was he doing it for the money? To resell the expensive hotel room bookings and concert tickets? Or was it all just one big game to him? Whatever the case, in every story, Neal didn't stick around. Instead, his victims were left to deal with the consequences of his actions. And some were never the same. Like one woman.
These stories were bizarre. Was he doing it for the money? To resell the expensive hotel room bookings and concert tickets? Or was it all just one big game to him? Whatever the case, in every story, Neal didn't stick around. Instead, his victims were left to deal with the consequences of his actions. And some were never the same. Like one woman.
When she graduated from university, she traveled and spent years living abroad.
When she graduated from university, she traveled and spent years living abroad.
In her Facebook messages, she said that she woke up in a hotel room disoriented. She alleged that she'd been drugged and raped. She didn't go to the police because she felt shamed. Multiple women shared stories like this one. Their Facebook posts alleged that Neal was not just a con artist, but a violent man.
In her Facebook messages, she said that she woke up in a hotel room disoriented. She alleged that she'd been drugged and raped. She didn't go to the police because she felt shamed. Multiple women shared stories like this one. Their Facebook posts alleged that Neal was not just a con artist, but a violent man.
As the group grew, Tina continued to wonder, did anyone out there have a story like hers? And then another mother came along. Her son was now an adult, but she knew Neil was the father.
As the group grew, Tina continued to wonder, did anyone out there have a story like hers? And then another mother came along. Her son was now an adult, but she knew Neil was the father.
Their families knew each other. The boys never interacted, but they easily could have.
Their families knew each other. The boys never interacted, but they easily could have.
Through the group, Tina learned more about Neil's backstory, and it was revealing.
Through the group, Tina learned more about Neil's backstory, and it was revealing.
Like his mom, Neil also had his first child in his teens.
Like his mom, Neil also had his first child in his teens.
After that, it seemed like this became a pattern of his. And this wasn't just about having unprotected sex or fathering many kids. He was intentionally deceiving women into believing he was infertile. These women who got pregnant would be tied to Neil forever.
After that, it seemed like this became a pattern of his. And this wasn't just about having unprotected sex or fathering many kids. He was intentionally deceiving women into believing he was infertile. These women who got pregnant would be tied to Neil forever.
So how many children does Neil Lawman actually have? Well, four have been confirmed by DNA, but there are many women who believe Neil is the father of their children.
So how many children does Neil Lawman actually have? Well, four have been confirmed by DNA, but there are many women who believe Neil is the father of their children.
So the scheme clearly didn't end with Tina. The 13 mothers have become a kind of group. They've bonded. Some of them are even friends.
So the scheme clearly didn't end with Tina. The 13 mothers have become a kind of group. They've bonded. Some of them are even friends.
In the 90s and 2000s, Tina was early to adopt the Internet's potential, especially for commerce and online retail. She made a career working in digital sales. That ended up taking her to New York City, where she met her husband. By her mid-30s, they welcomed a son, Leo.
In the 90s and 2000s, Tina was early to adopt the Internet's potential, especially for commerce and online retail. She made a career working in digital sales. That ended up taking her to New York City, where she met her husband. By her mid-30s, they welcomed a son, Leo.
But of course, Neal's victims aren't just the women. Some members of their Facebook group are Neal's now adult children. Many of them haven't been confirmed by DNA, but one of them tried to find Neal. He told Tina about the experience.
But of course, Neal's victims aren't just the women. Some members of their Facebook group are Neal's now adult children. Many of them haven't been confirmed by DNA, but one of them tried to find Neal. He told Tina about the experience.
Hearing these stories, Tina felt even more certain that justice needed to be served. And in talking to a police officer, she heard something that piqued her interest. This could be considered rape by deception. Rape by deception is a situation in which a perpetrator deceives someone in order to get sexual consent.
Hearing these stories, Tina felt even more certain that justice needed to be served. And in talking to a police officer, she heard something that piqued her interest. This could be considered rape by deception. Rape by deception is a situation in which a perpetrator deceives someone in order to get sexual consent.
The victim wouldn't have consented if not for a crucial lie, like one around the perpetrator's STD or fertility status. Rape by deception isn't a specific charge. It's a way of arguing and giving context to a situation as rape, even if it falls outside the typical definition of rape under the law. And it's been used before in cases like Tina's.
The victim wouldn't have consented if not for a crucial lie, like one around the perpetrator's STD or fertility status. Rape by deception isn't a specific charge. It's a way of arguing and giving context to a situation as rape, even if it falls outside the typical definition of rape under the law. And it's been used before in cases like Tina's.
For Tina, there's still a lot of work to be done around this issue. In the meantime, she's had to move forward with her life and focus on her kids.
For Tina, there's still a lot of work to be done around this issue. In the meantime, she's had to move forward with her life and focus on her kids.
Tina has learned to navigate some tough questions with care. For instance, her daughter has asked... Is my dad a nice person?
Tina has learned to navigate some tough questions with care. For instance, her daughter has asked... Is my dad a nice person?
Tina and her two children have a strong little family unit. But now that's not their entire family because Tina and Wendy decided to tell their kids about each other.
Tina and her two children have a strong little family unit. But now that's not their entire family because Tina and Wendy decided to tell their kids about each other.
Tina does worry about her daughter and how the situation will impact her as she grows up.
Tina does worry about her daughter and how the situation will impact her as she grows up.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story? Tina has a really specific reason. She wants to warn anyone who's just met Neil Lawman.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story? Tina has a really specific reason. She wants to warn anyone who's just met Neil Lawman.
When Tina was offered a prestigious job back in the UK, she separated from her husband and made the leap. Now her daily life was focused on work and raising her son. For Tina, being a single mom to one child felt manageable. She loved that dynamic.
When Tina was offered a prestigious job back in the UK, she separated from her husband and made the leap. Now her daily life was focused on work and raising her son. For Tina, being a single mom to one child felt manageable. She loved that dynamic.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When her son started grade school, Tina had more nights to herself.
When her son started grade school, Tina had more nights to herself.
In 2016, she attended a tech conference in London. That day, she must have met and exchanged contact info with at least 30 people, one of them being Neil Lawman.
In 2016, she attended a tech conference in London. That day, she must have met and exchanged contact info with at least 30 people, one of them being Neil Lawman.
Think party culture and spray tans. Tina's interaction with Neil was nothing special, just a friendly exchange of business cards. She assumed it was a professional connection. But soon, Neil began texting her.
Think party culture and spray tans. Tina's interaction with Neil was nothing special, just a friendly exchange of business cards. She assumed it was a professional connection. But soon, Neil began texting her.
I said, you know what? Why not? It was perfect timing, so they met at a neighborhood pub.
I said, you know what? Why not? It was perfect timing, so they met at a neighborhood pub.
She talked about her son and her ex-husband in America, and Neil shared details about his past.
She talked about her son and her ex-husband in America, and Neil shared details about his past.
The reason his wife had left was because Neil couldn't have kids.
The reason his wife had left was because Neil couldn't have kids.
It was a touchy subject. Neil seemed deeply hurt by his ex-wife. Tina felt for him.
It was a touchy subject. Neil seemed deeply hurt by his ex-wife. Tina felt for him.
And before long, they found themselves in another bar, making jokes and inching closer together. She liked him. But she wanted to keep it casual.
And before long, they found themselves in another bar, making jokes and inching closer together. She liked him. But she wanted to keep it casual.
They kissed goodnight, and Neil said he wanted to see her again. He was often in her area because he owned and managed a few properties there. He promised to text the next time he was in her neighborhood. And he did. So after their first night out together... He continued to text me. And then he would come over once a week or so. Tina couldn't remember the last time she had a fling like this.
They kissed goodnight, and Neil said he wanted to see her again. He was often in her area because he owned and managed a few properties there. He promised to text the next time he was in her neighborhood. And he did. So after their first night out together... He continued to text me. And then he would come over once a week or so. Tina couldn't remember the last time she had a fling like this.
It had to have been well before her marriage. It was just what she needed. It made her feel sexy and confident.
It had to have been well before her marriage. It was just what she needed. It made her feel sexy and confident.
Tina was 41, and after his testicular cancer treatments, Neil couldn't have kids. Without the pill or using regular condoms, they settled on another method.
Tina was 41, and after his testicular cancer treatments, Neil couldn't have kids. Without the pill or using regular condoms, they settled on another method.
Over the next few months, they saw each other whenever they could. And Tina got to know more about him.
Over the next few months, they saw each other whenever they could. And Tina got to know more about him.
But when Tina tried to talk about the neighborhood where the school's located… Neil seemed confused, like he didn't know the area. But it had been decades since Neil was in school, so Tina didn't think much of it.
But when Tina tried to talk about the neighborhood where the school's located… Neil seemed confused, like he didn't know the area. But it had been decades since Neil was in school, so Tina didn't think much of it.
She was ready to move on. So she stopped responding promptly to his texts. Kind of wanted to phase it out anyway. So, yeah, it got a little cold.
She was ready to move on. So she stopped responding promptly to his texts. Kind of wanted to phase it out anyway. So, yeah, it got a little cold.
She confided in a friend about what was going on.
She confided in a friend about what was going on.
She was pregnant at 41. Even though it was unexpected and unplanned, she felt immediately connected to this child.
She was pregnant at 41. Even though it was unexpected and unplanned, she felt immediately connected to this child.
Even still, it was a massive shock because the baby had to be Neil's.
Even still, it was a massive shock because the baby had to be Neil's.
But Neil was infertile. So this baby was a medical miracle. Tina turned to her friend who suggested maybe Neil would be happy about the baby.
But Neil was infertile. So this baby was a medical miracle. Tina turned to her friend who suggested maybe Neil would be happy about the baby.
Miracle baby or not, Tina knew that she and Neil didn't have a future together. Now she had to break up with him and tell him the news. Wow, okay. This is going to be awkward then. She took a few days to think and finally sent Neil a message. So I said, I need to talk to you.
Miracle baby or not, Tina knew that she and Neil didn't have a future together. Now she had to break up with him and tell him the news. Wow, okay. This is going to be awkward then. She took a few days to think and finally sent Neil a message. So I said, I need to talk to you.
She didn't know how he would react, but she certainly wasn't expecting what happened next.
She didn't know how he would react, but she certainly wasn't expecting what happened next.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
In these messages, Neil doubled down on his story.
In these messages, Neil doubled down on his story.
As the messages and calls kept coming, it got more personal.
As the messages and calls kept coming, it got more personal.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
After weeks of waiting, Angelique was losing faith that Cassandra would ever be held responsible. But then she got the call. Law enforcement was finally able to make an arrest. Cassandra was facing multiple charges.
After weeks of waiting, Angelique was losing faith that Cassandra would ever be held responsible. But then she got the call. Law enforcement was finally able to make an arrest. Cassandra was facing multiple charges.
She admitted that she'd planned to murder Angelique in order to steal her baby. Cassandra was now behind bars, and she would stay there until there was a trial.
She admitted that she'd planned to murder Angelique in order to steal her baby. Cassandra was now behind bars, and she would stay there until there was a trial.
The news brought a lot of relief. Angelique could breathe a little easier, but the arrest didn't take away the trauma.
The news brought a lot of relief. Angelique could breathe a little easier, but the arrest didn't take away the trauma.
She recently saw a video that was taken when her son was one. He was learning how to walk for the first time. And I say, oh, my gosh, it's his first steps.
She recently saw a video that was taken when her son was one. He was learning how to walk for the first time. And I say, oh, my gosh, it's his first steps.
In the wake of everything, she wasn't living. She was surviving.
In the wake of everything, she wasn't living. She was surviving.
When everything went down, Angelique had to fight for her case to be taken seriously by the cops. And after Cassandra was arrested, she didn't hear anything from law enforcement or prosecutors for 12 months.
When everything went down, Angelique had to fight for her case to be taken seriously by the cops. And after Cassandra was arrested, she didn't hear anything from law enforcement or prosecutors for 12 months.
That was until she got a call from the district attorney's office.
That was until she got a call from the district attorney's office.
The full confession police got out of Cassandra wouldn't be admissible in court.
The full confession police got out of Cassandra wouldn't be admissible in court.
But Angelique knew there was physical evidence from the fire.
But Angelique knew there was physical evidence from the fire.
The DA's office informed Angelique of Cassandra's defense strategy. She was going to plead insanity.
The DA's office informed Angelique of Cassandra's defense strategy. She was going to plead insanity.
And in that moment, Angelique almost felt bad for her. The prosecutor said that Angelique could decide.
And in that moment, Angelique almost felt bad for her. The prosecutor said that Angelique could decide.
She slept on it and realized that without the confession, the prosecution's hands were tied.
She slept on it and realized that without the confession, the prosecution's hands were tied.
The state offered eight years in a psychiatric hospital.
The state offered eight years in a psychiatric hospital.
At the sentencing hearing, Angelique was able to read a victim impact statement.
At the sentencing hearing, Angelique was able to read a victim impact statement.
Almost immediately, it became a media circus.
Almost immediately, it became a media circus.
Everyone wanted to run with the story. Angelique became reduced to a headline. It felt like something was being taken from her, and not on her terms.
Everyone wanted to run with the story. Angelique became reduced to a headline. It felt like something was being taken from her, and not on her terms.
A few years after sentencing, a local journalist came over to interview Angelique about the story. And he was the first one to ask her.
A few years after sentencing, a local journalist came over to interview Angelique about the story. And he was the first one to ask her.
But at the time, Angelique wasn't ready to hear it.
But at the time, Angelique wasn't ready to hear it.
It wasn't until eight years later when Cassandra was released from the psychiatric hospital that Angelique finally revisited the case.
It wasn't until eight years later when Cassandra was released from the psychiatric hospital that Angelique finally revisited the case.
She started with Cassandra's taped confession. And on it, she learned Cassandra's story, what Cassandra was really doing the night the fire started.
She started with Cassandra's taped confession. And on it, she learned Cassandra's story, what Cassandra was really doing the night the fire started.
Her plan was to kill Angelique with a butcher knife and steal her baby. That's what she was preparing to do when she sat Angelique on her bed in the dark and counted to three.
Her plan was to kill Angelique with a butcher knife and steal her baby. That's what she was preparing to do when she sat Angelique on her bed in the dark and counted to three.
When Angelique stood up, the initial plan fell apart. So Cassandra moved on to plan B.
When Angelique stood up, the initial plan fell apart. So Cassandra moved on to plan B.
Cassandra thought it would be easier to kill Angelique if she were unconscious. The whole thing was like a horror movie. It's actually diabolical.
Cassandra thought it would be easier to kill Angelique if she were unconscious. The whole thing was like a horror movie. It's actually diabolical.
It turns out the plan wasn't entirely hers, or at least that's what Cassandra stated in her confession.
It turns out the plan wasn't entirely hers, or at least that's what Cassandra stated in her confession.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. When Angelique Robledo was 17, she found out she was pregnant. She decided that this baby would be her second chance. She got clean from drugs and made a new friend, another pregnant teenager named Cassandra.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. When Angelique Robledo was 17, she found out she was pregnant. She decided that this baby would be her second chance. She got clean from drugs and made a new friend, another pregnant teenager named Cassandra.
And in this gang, Cassandra confessed that she worked for one man in particular.
And in this gang, Cassandra confessed that she worked for one man in particular.
Cassandra claimed that she was part of a gang operation. And her boss had a plan to sell Angelique's baby.
Cassandra claimed that she was part of a gang operation. And her boss had a plan to sell Angelique's baby.
This was all news to Angelique. These tapes suggested an alternate motivation for why Cassandra did what she did. And it didn't match up with what Angelique heard from prosecutors back when they offered a plea deal. At the time, her understanding was that Cassandra was mentally ill and thought the baby was hers. But in the confession...
This was all news to Angelique. These tapes suggested an alternate motivation for why Cassandra did what she did. And it didn't match up with what Angelique heard from prosecutors back when they offered a plea deal. At the time, her understanding was that Cassandra was mentally ill and thought the baby was hers. But in the confession...
And there was something else in Cassandra's confession. Another thing Angelique heard that didn't square with what the prosecutors told her.
And there was something else in Cassandra's confession. Another thing Angelique heard that didn't square with what the prosecutors told her.
She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero.
She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero.
This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh.
This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh.
Listen to Deep Cover, The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Deep Cover, The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
But one day, a casual hangout with Cassandra took a sinister turn. Angelique had a gut feeling that something was wrong, but she didn't know what it was. After a fire started, Cassandra was taken away by paramedics, and Angelique was left to explain the situation to her parents and law enforcement. She suspected that Cassandra started the fire and that the proof was in her friend's bag.
But one day, a casual hangout with Cassandra took a sinister turn. Angelique had a gut feeling that something was wrong, but she didn't know what it was. After a fire started, Cassandra was taken away by paramedics, and Angelique was left to explain the situation to her parents and law enforcement. She suspected that Cassandra started the fire and that the proof was in her friend's bag.
Prosecutors had told Angelique that Cassandra's confession wasn't admissible in court because no one had read Cassandra her Miranda rights. While reviewing the case file years later, Angelique discovered that wasn't true. They had read her her Miranda rights.
Prosecutors had told Angelique that Cassandra's confession wasn't admissible in court because no one had read Cassandra her Miranda rights. While reviewing the case file years later, Angelique discovered that wasn't true. They had read her her Miranda rights.
This supposed procedural error was the reason why Angelique was okay with the plea deal. So why did the prosecutors tell her this story? Well, Angelique has a theory.
This supposed procedural error was the reason why Angelique was okay with the plea deal. So why did the prosecutors tell her this story? Well, Angelique has a theory.
If Cassandra was telling the truth, maybe she could help law enforcement catch higher ups in her gang. Angelique thought back to all the phone calls Cassandra had taken, the ones in Spanish, and she'd taken a call in the middle of the attempted murder. Angelique had believed she was talking with Edwin, her husband. So was Edwin the mastermind? The gang leader?
If Cassandra was telling the truth, maybe she could help law enforcement catch higher ups in her gang. Angelique thought back to all the phone calls Cassandra had taken, the ones in Spanish, and she'd taken a call in the middle of the attempted murder. Angelique had believed she was talking with Edwin, her husband. So was Edwin the mastermind? The gang leader?
The cops met with Edwin, and they were very surprised to hear... He states, yeah, she's someone I dated.
The cops met with Edwin, and they were very surprised to hear... He states, yeah, she's someone I dated.
Edwin was a real guy that Cassandra had dated, but he hadn't talked to her in years. So who was actually on the other end of the phone? In her confession, Cassandra does name someone besides Edwin. But the cops couldn't find a record of this other guy. And that's where the police file ends. For Angelique, it felt like... They gave up.
Edwin was a real guy that Cassandra had dated, but he hadn't talked to her in years. So who was actually on the other end of the phone? In her confession, Cassandra does name someone besides Edwin. But the cops couldn't find a record of this other guy. And that's where the police file ends. For Angelique, it felt like... They gave up.
She's had to make peace with the fact that she might never know who Cassandra was working with. She might never get the full story.
She's had to make peace with the fact that she might never know who Cassandra was working with. She might never get the full story.
She's come to accept that the police report may just be another version of the story. And can she even trust Cassandra's taped confession? After all, Cassandra was clearly unwell. By the time Angelique heard the tapes, Cassandra had served her entire sentence. Angelique felt like reopening the case against Cassandra would be a dead end.
She's come to accept that the police report may just be another version of the story. And can she even trust Cassandra's taped confession? After all, Cassandra was clearly unwell. By the time Angelique heard the tapes, Cassandra had served her entire sentence. Angelique felt like reopening the case against Cassandra would be a dead end.
For her, reopening the case would only bring back bad memories. The damage was already done.
For her, reopening the case would only bring back bad memories. The damage was already done.
Her healing process wasn't linear.
Her healing process wasn't linear.
She recently drove past the house where the crime happened for the first time in years. And instead of feeling overwhelmed and triggered, she felt a powerful calm.
She recently drove past the house where the crime happened for the first time in years. And instead of feeling overwhelmed and triggered, she felt a powerful calm.
Josh, her son's father, has been a constant in her life and in her healing.
Josh, her son's father, has been a constant in her life and in her healing.
They dated throughout their first few years as parents.
They dated throughout their first few years as parents.
Angelique's also become an advocate for preventing fetal abduction.
Angelique's also become an advocate for preventing fetal abduction.
Fetal abduction is incredibly rare. There have been less than 20 documented cases in the U.S. in the last decade. And of those cases, very few of the victims survived.
Fetal abduction is incredibly rare. There have been less than 20 documented cases in the U.S. in the last decade. And of those cases, very few of the victims survived.
She's also done something astounding. She wanted to help others grow their own families. So she became a surrogate.
She's also done something astounding. She wanted to help others grow their own families. So she became a surrogate.
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why are you telling your story?
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why are you telling your story?
She backed away from the bag, trembling. The cops stepped in.
She backed away from the bag, trembling. The cops stepped in.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The items painted a dark picture of what Cassandra might have been planning that night. And Angelique realized the gifts she'd been given weren't for her at all.
The items painted a dark picture of what Cassandra might have been planning that night. And Angelique realized the gifts she'd been given weren't for her at all.
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
It all finally clicked for Angelique. Cassandra had been planning to stab her and run away with her baby.
It all finally clicked for Angelique. Cassandra had been planning to stab her and run away with her baby.
The rest of that night was a blur. She was in shock. She remembers the cops taping off the scene.
The rest of that night was a blur. She was in shock. She remembers the cops taping off the scene.
what had been a potential arson, was now an attempted murder investigation. Later that night, a police investigator came to speak with Angelique.
what had been a potential arson, was now an attempted murder investigation. Later that night, a police investigator came to speak with Angelique.
They hadn't been smoking weed. Angelique knew what happened. She just couldn't prove it to the cops.
They hadn't been smoking weed. Angelique knew what happened. She just couldn't prove it to the cops.
She was afraid Cassandra might come back and follow through with the plan.
She was afraid Cassandra might come back and follow through with the plan.
She didn't feel like they were taking her seriously. And now Cassandra was out of the hospital roaming free. Angelique decided to take matters into her own hands.
She didn't feel like they were taking her seriously. And now Cassandra was out of the hospital roaming free. Angelique decided to take matters into her own hands.
After the fire, Cassandra was brought to the hospital because she was having contractions. Angelique had a friend who worked at that hospital at the time, a friend who was willing to break the rules to help Angelique get some answers. And what her friend saw in Cassandra's medical record was a bombshell.
After the fire, Cassandra was brought to the hospital because she was having contractions. Angelique had a friend who worked at that hospital at the time, a friend who was willing to break the rules to help Angelique get some answers. And what her friend saw in Cassandra's medical record was a bombshell.
Up until that moment, Angelique fully believed her friend was pregnant. In fact, that had been the basis of their entire relationship. But now she had confirmation that it was all a lie. She felt like this information was important to her case.
Up until that moment, Angelique fully believed her friend was pregnant. In fact, that had been the basis of their entire relationship. But now she had confirmation that it was all a lie. She felt like this information was important to her case.
For the cops to move forward, Angelique would need to get Cassandra on the record contradicting her original statement to police.
For the cops to move forward, Angelique would need to get Cassandra on the record contradicting her original statement to police.
So they asked Angelique to do a recorded phone call.
So they asked Angelique to do a recorded phone call.
Anjali got what she needed, but it was anticlimactic. The police basically thanked her and sent her on her way. But almost immediately... From that moment, I had went into labor. She went straight to the hospital. Because Cassandra still hadn't been arrested, the hospital took precautions to keep Angelique safe.
Anjali got what she needed, but it was anticlimactic. The police basically thanked her and sent her on her way. But almost immediately... From that moment, I had went into labor. She went straight to the hospital. Because Cassandra still hadn't been arrested, the hospital took precautions to keep Angelique safe.
After all, someone had wanted to steal her baby and brought a butcher knife to do it. So she was adamant about not having a C-section.
After all, someone had wanted to steal her baby and brought a butcher knife to do it. So she was adamant about not having a C-section.
The stress had led to high blood pressure, and now Angelique had preeclampsia. It was a high-risk birth.
The stress had led to high blood pressure, and now Angelique had preeclampsia. It was a high-risk birth.
Finally, her son was born. He was healthy and in her arms.
Finally, her son was born. He was healthy and in her arms.
She hoped that after he was born, she'd find some relief.
She hoped that after he was born, she'd find some relief.
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
While she was in the hospital, her family worked to renovate her bedroom, to repaint it and make it livable again. But after she was discharged, she struggled to relax at home.
While she was in the hospital, her family worked to renovate her bedroom, to repaint it and make it livable again. But after she was discharged, she struggled to relax at home.
Josh, her son's father, stepped up to help. He wanted to be a safe place for Angelique. So every night, he stayed with her on the couch next to their new baby.
Josh, her son's father, stepped up to help. He wanted to be a safe place for Angelique. So every night, he stayed with her on the couch next to their new baby.
But even with him by her side, she couldn't let her guard down.
But even with him by her side, she couldn't let her guard down.
When Josh or her family tried to talk to her about how she was doing, Angelique shut down.
When Josh or her family tried to talk to her about how she was doing, Angelique shut down.
She wanted Cassandra arrested, but the cops weren't sharing any information about the case.
She wanted Cassandra arrested, but the cops weren't sharing any information about the case.
She didn't even feel safe taking a walk around her neighborhood.
She didn't even feel safe taking a walk around her neighborhood.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Cassandra had been arrested.
Cassandra had been arrested.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero.
She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero.
This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh.
This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh.
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm going to hand it over to our producer, Mo, who talked with Molly for this episode. Can you just tell me a little bit about what the process of writing this was like for you?
I'm going to hand it over to our producer, Mo, who talked with Molly for this episode. Can you just tell me a little bit about what the process of writing this was like for you?
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Thank you so much for listening. And thank you to the incredible listeners who wrote in to share their essays on the theme of resilience. We were so moved by your submissions that we're bringing you more of these listener essays. And our next theme will be the moment everything changed. Set the scene. Take us back to that memory.
Thank you so much for listening. And thank you to the incredible listeners who wrote in to share their essays on the theme of resilience. We were so moved by your submissions that we're bringing you more of these listener essays. And our next theme will be the moment everything changed. Set the scene. Take us back to that memory.
Describe the feelings and thoughts you had in the moment when everything changed for you. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to betrayalpod at gmail.com. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
Describe the feelings and thoughts you had in the moment when everything changed for you. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to betrayalpod at gmail.com. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins.
Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, we put a call out for your listener essays. We wanted to hear from you about resilience after a devastating betrayal. And we received so many incredible essay submissions. For this episode, we're going to feature the second of two essays that really moved me. It's written and read by a listener named Molly.
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, we put a call out for your listener essays. We wanted to hear from you about resilience after a devastating betrayal. And we received so many incredible essay submissions. For this episode, we're going to feature the second of two essays that really moved me. It's written and read by a listener named Molly.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
When we come back, our producer talks with Molly about her writing process. And stay tuned until the end of the episode when we'll be sharing our next listener essay theme. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
When we come back, our producer talks with Molly about her writing process. And stay tuned until the end of the episode when we'll be sharing our next listener essay theme. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free. And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free. And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Between the stress of school and the drama with Morgan's parents, Kelsey's connection with Morgan was fading.
Between the stress of school and the drama with Morgan's parents, Kelsey's connection with Morgan was fading.
The next day, Kelsey came home from school to find Morgan on their couch in tears. There was something she needed to tell Kelsey.
The next day, Kelsey came home from school to find Morgan on their couch in tears. There was something she needed to tell Kelsey.
Just when Kelsey thought her relationship with Morgan was over, Morgan came to her with devastating news. She had bone cancer, and she was dying. Kelsey was no stranger to cancer. She grew up watching her mother's breast cancer go into remission and return again. It was a horrible cycle. And to think another person she loved was going through this was hard to fathom.
Just when Kelsey thought her relationship with Morgan was over, Morgan came to her with devastating news. She had bone cancer, and she was dying. Kelsey was no stranger to cancer. She grew up watching her mother's breast cancer go into remission and return again. It was a horrible cycle. And to think another person she loved was going through this was hard to fathom.
I don't think I got it at first. Morgan had known about the diagnosis all along, but she was just telling her now that the cancer had returned when she only had three months to live.
I don't think I got it at first. Morgan had known about the diagnosis all along, but she was just telling her now that the cancer had returned when she only had three months to live.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
So she sat down at the kitchen table with her laptop and a notepad to talk about what this would mean. Luckily, Morgan had some answers.
So she sat down at the kitchen table with her laptop and a notepad to talk about what this would mean. Luckily, Morgan had some answers.
During the day, Kelsey would attend class for her senior year of college, and Morgan would spend the day at the hospital.
During the day, Kelsey would attend class for her senior year of college, and Morgan would spend the day at the hospital.
Christmas was a few weeks away. With Morgan's family out of the picture, they decided to celebrate with a family friend. an older woman named Joanne, who'd been a mentor to Morgan for years.
Christmas was a few weeks away. With Morgan's family out of the picture, they decided to celebrate with a family friend. an older woman named Joanne, who'd been a mentor to Morgan for years.
It was a relief to talk with someone else who'd been involved with Morgan's care. She was a great resource. For Christmas, Morgan and Kelsey got each other something special. We got rings for our wedding. rings for their wedding. Morgan wanted to get married to Kelsey. It was a legal and financial decision.
It was a relief to talk with someone else who'd been involved with Morgan's care. She was a great resource. For Christmas, Morgan and Kelsey got each other something special. We got rings for our wedding. rings for their wedding. Morgan wanted to get married to Kelsey. It was a legal and financial decision.
Morgan wanted the money to be donated to a library foundation. Kelsey was honored to help facilitate one of her final wishes.
Morgan wanted the money to be donated to a library foundation. Kelsey was honored to help facilitate one of her final wishes.
Kelsey felt a responsibility to make sure every day was a good day.
Kelsey felt a responsibility to make sure every day was a good day.
But the days were still difficult, especially as Morgan's health worsened.
But the days were still difficult, especially as Morgan's health worsened.
I'd be like, oh my God, your hair. This only furthered Kelsey's resolve to support Morgan. She offered again to go to the hospital with her, to be by her side as she got treatment. Morgan said no. She didn't want to be a burden.
I'd be like, oh my God, your hair. This only furthered Kelsey's resolve to support Morgan. She offered again to go to the hospital with her, to be by her side as she got treatment. Morgan said no. She didn't want to be a burden.
After all, it was Kelsey's job that kept them afloat financially. As the weeks went on, the treatment seemed to be slowing the progression of her cancer, and Morgan hit the three-month mark.
After all, it was Kelsey's job that kept them afloat financially. As the weeks went on, the treatment seemed to be slowing the progression of her cancer, and Morgan hit the three-month mark.
This is Kelsey's story of building her life around someone else's lies. Lies that consumed Kelsey's 20s, derailed her early career, and destroyed her sense of trust. For many years, she tried to hide from the deception she experienced. But now, she's ready to tell her story. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
This is Kelsey's story of building her life around someone else's lies. Lies that consumed Kelsey's 20s, derailed her early career, and destroyed her sense of trust. For many years, she tried to hide from the deception she experienced. But now, she's ready to tell her story. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
For the past three months, Kelsey had been bracing herself for the end, putting her all into caring for Morgan. It had been exhausting.
For the past three months, Kelsey had been bracing herself for the end, putting her all into caring for Morgan. It had been exhausting.
In her last semester, she earned B's and C's, and her dreams of being valedictorian were dashed. Instead of giving the valedictorian speech, she applied to be an honorary student speaker at commencement.
In her last semester, she earned B's and C's, and her dreams of being valedictorian were dashed. Instead of giving the valedictorian speech, she applied to be an honorary student speaker at commencement.
After she graduated, they finally had the time to plan a small wedding ceremony. At the time, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in their state, so they had to travel.
After she graduated, they finally had the time to plan a small wedding ceremony. At the time, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in their state, so they had to travel.
Kelsey drove them to California, with Morgan asleep in the passenger seat. Along the way, they camped in national parks.
Kelsey drove them to California, with Morgan asleep in the passenger seat. Along the way, they camped in national parks.
The day before the ceremony, they both sat down to write their vows.
The day before the ceremony, they both sat down to write their vows.
They delivered their vows and signed the papers in Sequoia National Park.
They delivered their vows and signed the papers in Sequoia National Park.
Being officially married was a relief. It was the final thing Morgan wanted to do before she passed away.
Being officially married was a relief. It was the final thing Morgan wanted to do before she passed away.
When she was a little girl, Kelsey's mom told her the origin story of their family unit. It was a survival story.
When she was a little girl, Kelsey's mom told her the origin story of their family unit. It was a survival story.
In less than a year, Kelsey and Morgan went from being 21-year-olds at camp to being a married couple, handling a terminal disease. Now they were committed to each other, for however much time Morgan had left. Kelsey had been accepted into a master's program across the country. Neither of them expected Morgan to be alive for that next chapter.
In less than a year, Kelsey and Morgan went from being 21-year-olds at camp to being a married couple, handling a terminal disease. Now they were committed to each other, for however much time Morgan had left. Kelsey had been accepted into a master's program across the country. Neither of them expected Morgan to be alive for that next chapter.
Morgan's successful treatment meant she had more time. She could take a break from treatment. But her cancer was still deemed terminal. No one knew how long she really had left, not even her doctors.
Morgan's successful treatment meant she had more time. She could take a break from treatment. But her cancer was still deemed terminal. No one knew how long she really had left, not even her doctors.
Kelsey didn't know what this meant for her plans to start graduate school. She barely got through her last semester.
Kelsey didn't know what this meant for her plans to start graduate school. She barely got through her last semester.
Her mom and the three girls started anew in a small West Coast town. But the fear of her dad was always looming in the background.
Her mom and the three girls started anew in a small West Coast town. But the fear of her dad was always looming in the background.
She was worried about juggling her master's program and supporting Morgan at the same time. She didn't even know if she could handle that. But she decided.
She was worried about juggling her master's program and supporting Morgan at the same time. She didn't even know if she could handle that. But she decided.
They rented a U-Haul and began the cross-country drive. Along the way, they made a pit stop to see Joanne, Morgan's mentor.
They rented a U-Haul and began the cross-country drive. Along the way, they made a pit stop to see Joanne, Morgan's mentor.
It was clear something had come between Joanne and Morgan. Joanne said she wanted to talk to Kelsey in private, but they just couldn't find the right moment.
It was clear something had come between Joanne and Morgan. Joanne said she wanted to talk to Kelsey in private, but they just couldn't find the right moment.
When they arrived in their new city, they had to face the reality of living alone. Kelsey found a job in hospitality while she started her master's degree. But Morgan was too sick to work.
When they arrived in their new city, they had to face the reality of living alone. Kelsey found a job in hospitality while she started her master's degree. But Morgan was too sick to work.
Kelsey was only 22 and she was the sole provider. Morgan found new doctors. And now that they were married, Kelsey was paying for more of Morgan's care.
Kelsey was only 22 and she was the sole provider. Morgan found new doctors. And now that they were married, Kelsey was paying for more of Morgan's care.
She became hyper fixated on financials.
She became hyper fixated on financials.
But she found it hard to have open conversations with Morgan about it.
But she found it hard to have open conversations with Morgan about it.
It had been a year since Morgan shared her diagnosis. Even though Kelsey was now paying for Morgan's care, she still wasn't privy to the details of it.
It had been a year since Morgan shared her diagnosis. Even though Kelsey was now paying for Morgan's care, she still wasn't privy to the details of it.
Nearly everyone in their new town was Mormon and their family wasn't. Their dad was Cuban. So Kelsey and her sisters stood out in a sea of blonde hair and blue eyes.
Nearly everyone in their new town was Mormon and their family wasn't. Their dad was Cuban. So Kelsey and her sisters stood out in a sea of blonde hair and blue eyes.
But Morgan didn't want to talk about it. She wanted to do everything alone. And that worried Kelsey.
But Morgan didn't want to talk about it. She wanted to do everything alone. And that worried Kelsey.
The lack of information was becoming a real problem for Kelsey. It became a wedge in their relationship.
The lack of information was becoming a real problem for Kelsey. It became a wedge in their relationship.
Without any answers, she was getting frustrated. She felt like she couldn't help Morgan if she didn't have all the information. That year, they spent Christmas with Kelsey's family.
Without any answers, she was getting frustrated. She felt like she couldn't help Morgan if she didn't have all the information. That year, they spent Christmas with Kelsey's family.
This was the second time they thought it was their last Christmas together. And it was the first time Kelsey's mom was getting to really spend time with Morgan.
This was the second time they thought it was their last Christmas together. And it was the first time Kelsey's mom was getting to really spend time with Morgan.
Still, Kelsey's mom insisted that something didn't add up. she was starting to feel skeptical about Morgan's story.
Still, Kelsey's mom insisted that something didn't add up. she was starting to feel skeptical about Morgan's story.
Before this moment, Kelsey had never doubted Morgan's diagnosis. For nearly two years, her entire life revolved around Morgan's health.
Before this moment, Kelsey had never doubted Morgan's diagnosis. For nearly two years, her entire life revolved around Morgan's health.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
Thank you so much for having me. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Thank you so much for having me. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Her mom's survival story had another chapter. For Kelsey's entire childhood, her mom battled breast cancer.
Her mom's survival story had another chapter. For Kelsey's entire childhood, her mom battled breast cancer.
As a kid, Kelsey didn't know the details. She just knew her mom was exhausted and was always going to the hospital.
As a kid, Kelsey didn't know the details. She just knew her mom was exhausted and was always going to the hospital.
Over the summer, she started going to Girl Scout Camp. There, she was allowed to just be a kid.
Over the summer, she started going to Girl Scout Camp. There, she was allowed to just be a kid.
The women who ran the camp were Kelsey's idols. She wanted to be just like them.
The women who ran the camp were Kelsey's idols. She wanted to be just like them.
As she got older and entered high school, she started dreaming about broadening her horizons.
As she got older and entered high school, she started dreaming about broadening her horizons.
Kelsey and her high school girlfriend kept their relationship a secret. It was in the mid-2000s, and they were in a mostly Mormon community.
Kelsey and her high school girlfriend kept their relationship a secret. It was in the mid-2000s, and they were in a mostly Mormon community.
So she set her sights on going to college in a place where she could be out and be herself. She was accepted to her first choice and made the leap.
So she set her sights on going to college in a place where she could be out and be herself. She was accepted to her first choice and made the leap.
But her family's finances took an unexpected turn. So after the first year, Kelsey had to transfer to a new university, one that she'd be paying for herself.
But her family's finances took an unexpected turn. So after the first year, Kelsey had to transfer to a new university, one that she'd be paying for herself.
She worked to put herself through college and she started working summers as a counselor at her old Girl Scout camp.
She worked to put herself through college and she started working summers as a counselor at her old Girl Scout camp.
By her third summer, she earned an executive leadership role at the camp, helping coordinate all the younger counselors.
By her third summer, she earned an executive leadership role at the camp, helping coordinate all the younger counselors.
Arriving at camp was a much-anticipated reunion, where she saw all of her closest friends again.
Arriving at camp was a much-anticipated reunion, where she saw all of her closest friends again.
One of the new counselors immediately caught Kelsey's attention. Her name was Morgan.
One of the new counselors immediately caught Kelsey's attention. Her name was Morgan.
She kept to herself and seemed guarded. I found her to be really mysterious.
She kept to herself and seemed guarded. I found her to be really mysterious.
Even though Morgan was only 20 years old, she'd been through a lot.
Even though Morgan was only 20 years old, she'd been through a lot.
Morgan confided in her. Forming close bonds was a hallmark of the camp experience. They would be spending every day together for the next three months.
Morgan confided in her. Forming close bonds was a hallmark of the camp experience. They would be spending every day together for the next three months.
At camp, there were no cell phones, no distractions from the outside world. And in this bubble, Kelsey knew she was developing feelings for Morgan. But she was in a leadership role. And then there was this.
At camp, there were no cell phones, no distractions from the outside world. And in this bubble, Kelsey knew she was developing feelings for Morgan. But she was in a leadership role. And then there was this.
So they continued on with a supercharged friendship. It was a connection Morgan needed. At home, she'd been struggling with an eating disorder.
So they continued on with a supercharged friendship. It was a connection Morgan needed. At home, she'd been struggling with an eating disorder.
That kind of structure and vigilance around food was really triggering for Morgan. In fact, it was having an impact on her job performance.
That kind of structure and vigilance around food was really triggering for Morgan. In fact, it was having an impact on her job performance.
The idea of losing Morgan at camp was upsetting. Kelsey felt a responsibility to help as both a friend and a camp executive.
The idea of losing Morgan at camp was upsetting. Kelsey felt a responsibility to help as both a friend and a camp executive.
About halfway through the summer, they took a day off together and drove to Kelsey's hometown.
About halfway through the summer, they took a day off together and drove to Kelsey's hometown.
Near the end of camp, Morgan's parents came to town. They were devout Mormons. And on that visit, Morgan wanted to come out to them. Kelsey drove her to meet them, to be there for emotional support.
Near the end of camp, Morgan's parents came to town. They were devout Mormons. And on that visit, Morgan wanted to come out to them. Kelsey drove her to meet them, to be there for emotional support.
Her parents' rejection brought the two of them even closer.
Her parents' rejection brought the two of them even closer.
There was so much at stake, and Morgan was now left on her own. They made their relationship official. And when camp ended, Morgan couldn't go home. So they decided to move in together.
There was so much at stake, and Morgan was now left on her own. They made their relationship official. And when camp ended, Morgan couldn't go home. So they decided to move in together.
It was Kelsey's last year of college. At first, living with Morgan was a novelty. Even mundane tasks were exciting.
It was Kelsey's last year of college. At first, living with Morgan was a novelty. Even mundane tasks were exciting.
But right when the semester began picking up steam, Kelsey started receiving emails from Morgan's family.
But right when the semester began picking up steam, Kelsey started receiving emails from Morgan's family.
They thought Kelsey brainwashed their daughter, and they wanted her to leave Morgan alone.
They thought Kelsey brainwashed their daughter, and they wanted her to leave Morgan alone.
But Morgan was fixated. All she wanted to do was talk about her parents with Kelsey.
But Morgan was fixated. All she wanted to do was talk about her parents with Kelsey.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Joel wanted to see her that night, but she had plans. It was Caroline's turn to cook Sunday dinner for her family. To her surprise, he was down to show up at her parents' and bravely dine with her mom, dad, and two older sisters.
Joel wanted to see her that night, but she had plans. It was Caroline's turn to cook Sunday dinner for her family. To her surprise, he was down to show up at her parents' and bravely dine with her mom, dad, and two older sisters.
Joel and Caroline were skipping a lot of steps. This would typically be date 10, not date 1. But it felt right having Joel there beside her. And from that moment on... We became inseparable.
Joel and Caroline were skipping a lot of steps. This would typically be date 10, not date 1. But it felt right having Joel there beside her. And from that moment on... We became inseparable.
But when they were together, it was like the beginning all over again. Caroline and Joel made the most of the gorgeous landscape in Colorado.
But when they were together, it was like the beginning all over again. Caroline and Joel made the most of the gorgeous landscape in Colorado.
They had met early in the summer of 1998. And in the fall, Caroline had planned to go to graduate school a few hours away in Boulder. But Joel wasn't about to let her get away.
They had met early in the summer of 1998. And in the fall, Caroline had planned to go to graduate school a few hours away in Boulder. But Joel wasn't about to let her get away.
Here's Caroline's best friend, Debra.
Here's Caroline's best friend, Debra.
Debra is, as Caroline says, her ride or die. They met back in their 20s at work, and they even have a nickname for each other.
Debra is, as Caroline says, her ride or die. They met back in their 20s at work, and they even have a nickname for each other.
Debra knew Joel from the beginning of their relationship.
Debra knew Joel from the beginning of their relationship.
Caroline loved him. Her friends and family had grown to love him.
Caroline loved him. Her friends and family had grown to love him.
The engagement was simple, but planning the wedding wouldn't be. Caroline was Catholic, but Joel wasn't. That meant they couldn't get married in her church. But then, Joel did something extraordinary that surprised Caroline. Joel said, I'll convert for you.
The engagement was simple, but planning the wedding wouldn't be. Caroline was Catholic, but Joel wasn't. That meant they couldn't get married in her church. But then, Joel did something extraordinary that surprised Caroline. Joel said, I'll convert for you.
Once Joel was confirmed as part of the Catholic Church, he and Caroline prepared for the sacrament of marriage.
Once Joel was confirmed as part of the Catholic Church, he and Caroline prepared for the sacrament of marriage.
Three years after they met, on July 27, 2001, Caroline and Joel got married.
Three years after they met, on July 27, 2001, Caroline and Joel got married.
She took the test while Joel was sleeping, but she wanted to share the news with him right away.
She took the test while Joel was sleeping, but she wanted to share the news with him right away.
Once the shock wore off, they were both really looking forward to having a baby.
Once the shock wore off, they were both really looking forward to having a baby.
Caroline threw herself into preparing for motherhood. And Joel began to focus on providing for his growing family.
Caroline threw herself into preparing for motherhood. And Joel began to focus on providing for his growing family.
During her pregnancy, the couple made an agreement that Joel's career as a cop would be the centerpiece of their life. It was a sacrifice for the betterment of their family and for the entire community.
During her pregnancy, the couple made an agreement that Joel's career as a cop would be the centerpiece of their life. It was a sacrifice for the betterment of their family and for the entire community.
Caroline experienced some lonely days. But the couple was working for the future.
Caroline experienced some lonely days. But the couple was working for the future.
As for Caroline's career, it was more flexible. She isn't an officer herself. She asked us not to disclose her exact job title. We'll just say she works in the justice system and collaborates with law enforcement. So Caroline had the utmost respect for the work her husband did.
As for Caroline's career, it was more flexible. She isn't an officer herself. She asked us not to disclose her exact job title. We'll just say she works in the justice system and collaborates with law enforcement. So Caroline had the utmost respect for the work her husband did.
Two years after their son was born, Caroline and Joel welcomed a baby girl. Our daughter was born in 2005. And then they saw their sacrifices start to pay off.
Two years after their son was born, Caroline and Joel welcomed a baby girl. Our daughter was born in 2005. And then they saw their sacrifices start to pay off.
Despite the difficult hours, Joel embraced fatherhood. As the kids grew, Joel and Caroline brought them along for all their outdoor adventures. They even got an RV.
Despite the difficult hours, Joel embraced fatherhood. As the kids grew, Joel and Caroline brought them along for all their outdoor adventures. They even got an RV.
to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to betrayal.substack.com That's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K. Or just go to Substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe.
to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to betrayal.substack.com That's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K. Or just go to Substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe.
From those early days, Joel encouraged their son to get involved in his community. Here's their son.
From those early days, Joel encouraged their son to get involved in his community. Here's their son.
They even traveled to Florida for a scouting trip.
They even traveled to Florida for a scouting trip.
And Joel found ways to bond with their daughter, Nicole.
And Joel found ways to bond with their daughter, Nicole.
Both kids enjoyed the benefits of their dad being a cop because they had access to exciting experiences.
Both kids enjoyed the benefits of their dad being a cop because they had access to exciting experiences.
Then there was Joel's police car.
Then there was Joel's police car.
The car was a symbol of their dad's power and authority, of his values, his service. Despite Joel working nights, their family thrived. Both kids were passionate about sports and became competitive athletes. And they were focused, hardworking students.
The car was a symbol of their dad's power and authority, of his values, his service. Despite Joel working nights, their family thrived. Both kids were passionate about sports and became competitive athletes. And they were focused, hardworking students.
After eight years working as a sergeant, Joel was tapped for an important assignment.
After eight years working as a sergeant, Joel was tapped for an important assignment.
Internal Affairs is a department that investigates complaints and allegations of misconduct against its own officers. The new job meant Joel would work regular business hours and be home at night.
Internal Affairs is a department that investigates complaints and allegations of misconduct against its own officers. The new job meant Joel would work regular business hours and be home at night.
She craved that companionship. When Joel moved to internal affairs, he began sharing more about his work with Caroline. Every industry has its good and bad operators, but some of what Joel revealed was disturbing.
She craved that companionship. When Joel moved to internal affairs, he began sharing more about his work with Caroline. Every industry has its good and bad operators, but some of what Joel revealed was disturbing.
It was eye-opening to see how discipline worked at CSPD, what conduct could get you fired, and how honesty could save your job, even for very serious offenses. Caroline was proud that Joel was well-liked and respected. Here's a retired CSPD officer. He asked that we call him Dan.
It was eye-opening to see how discipline worked at CSPD, what conduct could get you fired, and how honesty could save your job, even for very serious offenses. Caroline was proud that Joel was well-liked and respected. Here's a retired CSPD officer. He asked that we call him Dan.
His family beamed whenever he was honored for his work, especially his daughter. I was very proud that my dad was a police officer. She remained proud, even as the public's relationship with law enforcement faced a watershed moment.
His family beamed whenever he was honored for his work, especially his daughter. I was very proud that my dad was a police officer. She remained proud, even as the public's relationship with law enforcement faced a watershed moment.
These were the George Floyd protests that were shaking the nation to its core. The mountain town of Colorado Springs was no exception. Dan was working for the department then and recalls the experience.
These were the George Floyd protests that were shaking the nation to its core. The mountain town of Colorado Springs was no exception. Dan was working for the department then and recalls the experience.
Caroline and Joel wanted their community to know that while they supported the police, they did not accept the kind of policing that led to George Floyd's death.
Caroline and Joel wanted their community to know that while they supported the police, they did not accept the kind of policing that led to George Floyd's death.
Even though she supported the protests, she was scared for her husband's safety. He had to work the front lines.
Even though she supported the protests, she was scared for her husband's safety. He had to work the front lines.
That's what they all thought, that he was one of the good ones. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
That's what they all thought, that he was one of the good ones. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Caroline knew Joel was one of the good ones. She had seen it with her own eyes. Joel was her rock during one of the hardest moments of her life.
Caroline knew Joel was one of the good ones. She had seen it with her own eyes. Joel was her rock during one of the hardest moments of her life.
We have these two great kids. The same mother who once said, don't tell me you're marrying a cop, had come to trust him, to love him.
We have these two great kids. The same mother who once said, don't tell me you're marrying a cop, had come to trust him, to love him.
Joel stepped in again when Caroline was faced with an uncomfortable decision.
Joel stepped in again when Caroline was faced with an uncomfortable decision.
Caroline asked for discretion here, but I will say this. The property had a lot of dark history in her family.
Caroline asked for discretion here, but I will say this. The property had a lot of dark history in her family.
You don't need to worry about it. He stuck to his word and took charge of the rental property. And take note, the rental property is important because it's going to come back later in Caroline's story. Actually, almost every anecdote you've heard up until this point will too. Soon after the loss of Caroline's mother, another exciting career opportunity came Joel's way.
You don't need to worry about it. He stuck to his word and took charge of the rental property. And take note, the rental property is important because it's going to come back later in Caroline's story. Actually, almost every anecdote you've heard up until this point will too. Soon after the loss of Caroline's mother, another exciting career opportunity came Joel's way.
The CSPD public information officer was retiring, and Joel was offered the position on a temporary basis. This role meant he'd be the face of the department, handling media relations and serving as the spokesperson. Here he is, giving an interview to a journalist.
The CSPD public information officer was retiring, and Joel was offered the position on a temporary basis. This role meant he'd be the face of the department, handling media relations and serving as the spokesperson. Here he is, giving an interview to a journalist.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 1. One of the good ones. Hi, everyone. I'm excited to be back for Season 4 of Betrayal. It's just incredible how much this community has grown, and I wanted to take a moment to give you my most heartfelt thank you for supporting this series, as well as our weekly series. No matter how you found betrayal, I'm really happy you're here.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 1. One of the good ones. Hi, everyone. I'm excited to be back for Season 4 of Betrayal. It's just incredible how much this community has grown, and I wanted to take a moment to give you my most heartfelt thank you for supporting this series, as well as our weekly series. No matter how you found betrayal, I'm really happy you're here.
Joel loved being the CSPD spokesperson. And he loved the recognition.
Joel loved being the CSPD spokesperson. And he loved the recognition.
Their home office was almost a shrine to Joel's accomplishments, with newspaper clippings and plaques. He even jokingly referred to it as the love me room. They were all proud of him. Plus, the job meant he was on the day shift, and that meant more time together.
Their home office was almost a shrine to Joel's accomplishments, with newspaper clippings and plaques. He even jokingly referred to it as the love me room. They were all proud of him. Plus, the job meant he was on the day shift, and that meant more time together.
Once the temporary role as public information officer ended, Joel tried to get as much experience across multiple departments as he could. It was the best path to leadership. Eventually, his hard work was recognized, and before long, he was up for the rank of lieutenant. This was a promotion, but it came with a drawback. He would be back on the grueling night shift, at least for the time being.
Once the temporary role as public information officer ended, Joel tried to get as much experience across multiple departments as he could. It was the best path to leadership. Eventually, his hard work was recognized, and before long, he was up for the rank of lieutenant. This was a promotion, but it came with a drawback. He would be back on the grueling night shift, at least for the time being.
Then, a year later in 2018, Joel was offered the role of public information officer. But this time, it would be permanent.
Then, a year later in 2018, Joel was offered the role of public information officer. But this time, it would be permanent.
Eventually, Joel revealed something that shook Caroline. He'd been grappling with reoccurring memories of a childhood trauma. It was something she'd known about. She didn't realize it was interfering with his work. Joel explained how the stress had built up, leading to an explosive confrontation with the chief. With Caroline's unwavering support, he agreed to start therapy.
Eventually, Joel revealed something that shook Caroline. He'd been grappling with reoccurring memories of a childhood trauma. It was something she'd known about. She didn't realize it was interfering with his work. Joel explained how the stress had built up, leading to an explosive confrontation with the chief. With Caroline's unwavering support, he agreed to start therapy.
Caroline found Joel a counselor experienced with first responders and PTSD. The PIO job, it was a loss, but Joel's mental health was the priority. And later the same year, Joel was given another daytime assignment, overseeing special events for the department. The job had its perks. He organized the motorcade with the Secret Service whenever the president or vice president came to town.
Caroline found Joel a counselor experienced with first responders and PTSD. The PIO job, it was a loss, but Joel's mental health was the priority. And later the same year, Joel was given another daytime assignment, overseeing special events for the department. The job had its perks. He organized the motorcade with the Secret Service whenever the president or vice president came to town.
And for Caroline, it meant more time together as a family and more quality time with her husband. And for a while, Joel seemed well. Then one night they attended one of their son's sporting events together. Joel was distracted and despondent.
And for Caroline, it meant more time together as a family and more quality time with her husband. And for a while, Joel seemed well. Then one night they attended one of their son's sporting events together. Joel was distracted and despondent.
Caroline was concerned. He was obviously in distress. Their son just turned 16 and started driving.
Caroline was concerned. He was obviously in distress. Their son just turned 16 and started driving.
Police officers are the first responders to a lot of disturbing situations. So it wasn't a surprise that Joel experienced this type of PTSD. These moments were tough, but they were infrequent. Caroline looked for the joy in their lives and made it a point to celebrate all the good they had.
Police officers are the first responders to a lot of disturbing situations. So it wasn't a surprise that Joel experienced this type of PTSD. These moments were tough, but they were infrequent. Caroline looked for the joy in their lives and made it a point to celebrate all the good they had.
They wanted to celebrate big with a family beach vacation. Here's Caroline and Joel's son.
They wanted to celebrate big with a family beach vacation. Here's Caroline and Joel's son.
Now, for the next several weeks, we will be focusing on one story. A story that we learned about only because a woman named Caroline and her daughter learned about us. By the way, some names have been changed to protect privacy.
Now, for the next several weeks, we will be focusing on one story. A story that we learned about only because a woman named Caroline and her daughter learned about us. By the way, some names have been changed to protect privacy.
Joel and Caroline were devising a plan of their own for their anniversary.
Joel and Caroline were devising a plan of their own for their anniversary.
Caroline shared some photos with me. She looks stunning in a long white dress with a low back. In one shot, her son walks beside her on the beach. And her daughter holds flowers. The kids look so proud of their parents.
Caroline shared some photos with me. She looks stunning in a long white dress with a low back. In one shot, her son walks beside her on the beach. And her daughter holds flowers. The kids look so proud of their parents.
Their son can still picture it.
Their son can still picture it.
The ceremony left their family and friends feeling an afterglow long past the trip. But less than a year later, in March of 22, Joel's mental health took another turn for the worse. Caroline was terrified. She had never seen him so upset or vulnerable.
The ceremony left their family and friends feeling an afterglow long past the trip. But less than a year later, in March of 22, Joel's mental health took another turn for the worse. Caroline was terrified. She had never seen him so upset or vulnerable.
The job must have been weighing on him for decades, and it was all coming out now. The couple had heart-to-hearts. Joel opened up about his parents, details he'd never shared before. They started talking about the future, about what life could look like if he changed careers. Caroline didn't care what he did. She just wanted him healthy, happy.
The job must have been weighing on him for decades, and it was all coming out now. The couple had heart-to-hearts. Joel opened up about his parents, details he'd never shared before. They started talking about the future, about what life could look like if he changed careers. Caroline didn't care what he did. She just wanted him healthy, happy.
Then on Sunday, April 10th, Joel did something no one saw coming. It rocked his family in the best way. Our daughter wanted to go to church.
Then on Sunday, April 10th, Joel did something no one saw coming. It rocked his family in the best way. Our daughter wanted to go to church.
She thinks about that moment often. Because it was the last time she understood her world.
She thinks about that moment often. Because it was the last time she understood her world.
It's an eight hour drive. Nicole's mom, Caroline Borrego, was the driver.
It's an eight hour drive. Nicole's mom, Caroline Borrego, was the driver.
This season on Betrayal, the good guy Joel appeared to be was all a facade.
This season on Betrayal, the good guy Joel appeared to be was all a facade.
Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.
Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.
Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman.
Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman.
Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. Voice acting by Caitlin Golden. And special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.
Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. Voice acting by Caitlin Golden. And special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
That thought stuck with Caroline, enough to motivate her to send us an email. And before we knew it, my producer Carrie and I found ourselves in Colorado Springs, where we met Caroline Berega at her home. Caroline is a mother of two who works in law enforcement. Her house is beautiful with vaulted ceilings in a cozy suburb of the Springs. If one thing stuck out to me, this was a forever home.
That thought stuck with Caroline, enough to motivate her to send us an email. And before we knew it, my producer Carrie and I found ourselves in Colorado Springs, where we met Caroline Berega at her home. Caroline is a mother of two who works in law enforcement. Her house is beautiful with vaulted ceilings in a cozy suburb of the Springs. If one thing stuck out to me, this was a forever home.
She was warm, welcoming, and not alone. Little did we know we were guests of a special night Caroline does with the people closest to her. It's called Supper Club, and they do it every Sunday night. They drink wine, crack jokes, and unwind before the start of another week. These friends never miss a Supper Club.
She was warm, welcoming, and not alone. Little did we know we were guests of a special night Caroline does with the people closest to her. It's called Supper Club, and they do it every Sunday night. They drink wine, crack jokes, and unwind before the start of another week. These friends never miss a Supper Club.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
were complete strangers, and the night could not have felt more comfortable.
were complete strangers, and the night could not have felt more comfortable.
She showed us trophies and ribbons from her kids' sports careers. There were instruments and elementary school art projects. And there were family photos smiling at us in frames all over the house. This was a happy home of a happy family. But when we looked a little closer, we realized that many of the photos weren't of Caroline's family at all.
She showed us trophies and ribbons from her kids' sports careers. There were instruments and elementary school art projects. And there were family photos smiling at us in frames all over the house. This was a happy home of a happy family. But when we looked a little closer, we realized that many of the photos weren't of Caroline's family at all.
They were actually stock photos, the kind you get when you buy a frame at the store. It became overwhelmingly clear Caroline had deleted parts of her life. Actually, just one part of her life. The most painful one. Caroline had removed all traces of her husband, her now ex-husband, Joel Kern.
They were actually stock photos, the kind you get when you buy a frame at the store. It became overwhelmingly clear Caroline had deleted parts of her life. Actually, just one part of her life. The most painful one. Caroline had removed all traces of her husband, her now ex-husband, Joel Kern.
Joel was a decorated member of the Colorado Springs Police Department. He had taken an oath to protect and serve the community.
Joel was a decorated member of the Colorado Springs Police Department. He had taken an oath to protect and serve the community.
But on April 11th, 2022, Caroline discovered that the only person Joel was serving was himself.
But on April 11th, 2022, Caroline discovered that the only person Joel was serving was himself.
Season four is about truth. It's the foundation upon which trust is built. So what happens when someone manipulates the truth? What happens when a person or an institution believes that they are above the truth? For Caroline, her husband's lies completely undermined her sense of reality. It's been a hard few years for Caroline and her family.
Season four is about truth. It's the foundation upon which trust is built. So what happens when someone manipulates the truth? What happens when a person or an institution believes that they are above the truth? For Caroline, her husband's lies completely undermined her sense of reality. It's been a hard few years for Caroline and her family.
Before we sat down with her, she looked to her daughter for strength.
Before we sat down with her, she looked to her daughter for strength.
And that's all the permission I needed. Nicole always felt a deep kinship with her father, Joel Kern.
And that's all the permission I needed. Nicole always felt a deep kinship with her father, Joel Kern.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
And for Joel, it wasn't just a job. It was part of his identity. During Nicole's childhood, he rose up the ranks in the Colorado Springs Police Department. And for most of her life, he worked unusual hours.
And for Joel, it wasn't just a job. It was part of his identity. During Nicole's childhood, he rose up the ranks in the Colorado Springs Police Department. And for most of her life, he worked unusual hours.
Substation was a new word for me. It's another word for precinct. Caroline made sure not to skip celebrations just because Joel worked at night. She brought the kids over and they celebrated birthdays and holidays at the substation. So Joel wouldn't miss out and the kids would have their dad at milestone events.
Substation was a new word for me. It's another word for precinct. Caroline made sure not to skip celebrations just because Joel worked at night. She brought the kids over and they celebrated birthdays and holidays at the substation. So Joel wouldn't miss out and the kids would have their dad at milestone events.
When he had to miss the kids' sports games or recitals, it was for good reason. Their dad was on the side of justice, integrity. And this didn't happen by accident. Caroline and Joel designed their life around his career. In fact, the day she first laid eyes on Joel, he was in uniform.
When he had to miss the kids' sports games or recitals, it was for good reason. Their dad was on the side of justice, integrity. And this didn't happen by accident. Caroline and Joel designed their life around his career. In fact, the day she first laid eyes on Joel, he was in uniform.
It was 1998 and Caroline was fresh out of college, starting her first full-time job as a domestic violence advocate.
It was 1998 and Caroline was fresh out of college, starting her first full-time job as a domestic violence advocate.
When Caroline says lineup, she's talking about the briefing officers receive at the start of their shift. It's when the sergeant gives out updates and assignments.
When Caroline says lineup, she's talking about the briefing officers receive at the start of their shift. It's when the sergeant gives out updates and assignments.
there was something happening between them. Caroline didn't know it then, but that night would alter the trajectory of her life. And since we're going to be talking a lot about the Colorado Springs Police Department, I'll refer to it as the CSPD from now on.
there was something happening between them. Caroline didn't know it then, but that night would alter the trajectory of her life. And since we're going to be talking a lot about the Colorado Springs Police Department, I'll refer to it as the CSPD from now on.
The ride along was routine, but it was a long night. When they returned to the substation, Caroline was ready to get home.
The ride along was routine, but it was a long night. When they returned to the substation, Caroline was ready to get home.
Caroline was playing it cool, but he gave her his number anyway.
Caroline was playing it cool, but he gave her his number anyway.
Seth's disappointment quickly faded. They both fell in love with their daughter.
Seth's disappointment quickly faded. They both fell in love with their daughter.
Those first few years of their daughter's life were magical. He was an Excellent father.
Those first few years of their daughter's life were magical. He was an Excellent father.
He was also excellent to Nancy.
He was also excellent to Nancy.
He always cooked dinner. And this wasn't a phase for him. Year after year, Seth showed up for their family and their marriage. She and Seth were a team.
He always cooked dinner. And this wasn't a phase for him. Year after year, Seth showed up for their family and their marriage. She and Seth were a team.
Years into their marriage, they were still very much in love.
Years into their marriage, they were still very much in love.
Even a neighbor commented on how physically close they seemed.
Even a neighbor commented on how physically close they seemed.
Nancy was the only one in their house who used the computer.
Nancy was the only one in their house who used the computer.
The username was Peter Parker.
The username was Peter Parker.
While she was in high school, Carmen Rita Wong's father was arrested for trafficking heroin. Poppy had always been mysterious and constantly had lots of cash. But she had no idea what he really did for work. And it turned out, neither did her older brother, Alex, who'd been making deliveries with their dad.
While she was in high school, Carmen Rita Wong's father was arrested for trafficking heroin. Poppy had always been mysterious and constantly had lots of cash. But she had no idea what he really did for work. And it turned out, neither did her older brother, Alex, who'd been making deliveries with their dad.
The cops figured out pretty quickly that Alex was oblivious to Poppy's scheme.
The cops figured out pretty quickly that Alex was oblivious to Poppy's scheme.
She was relieved for Alex, but also furious at Poppy for putting him in that situation. Ultimately, Poppy was sentenced to 10 years in prison.
She was relieved for Alex, but also furious at Poppy for putting him in that situation. Ultimately, Poppy was sentenced to 10 years in prison.
Around the same time, Marty lost his job.
Around the same time, Marty lost his job.
When she graduated high school, Carmen was on her own.
When she graduated high school, Carmen was on her own.
And that's what Carmen did. She moved back to New York City where she worked and put herself through college.
And that's what Carmen did. She moved back to New York City where she worked and put herself through college.
In her 20s, Carmen began her career. She'd always wanted to be a writer and she was offered a job.
In her 20s, Carmen began her career. She'd always wanted to be a writer and she was offered a job.
Carmen was finding her independence, solidifying her sense of self. Meanwhile, things back in New Hampshire were falling apart. Marty never recovered financially after he lost his job.
Carmen was finding her independence, solidifying her sense of self. Meanwhile, things back in New Hampshire were falling apart. Marty never recovered financially after he lost his job.
She wasn't surprised to hear the news about Lupe and Marty's divorce. But for Carmen, life in New Hampshire was in the rearview mirror. She and her brother Alex had both settled in New York. And as adults, they became closer than ever.
She wasn't surprised to hear the news about Lupe and Marty's divorce. But for Carmen, life in New Hampshire was in the rearview mirror. She and her brother Alex had both settled in New York. And as adults, they became closer than ever.
After her divorce, Lupe threw herself into religion. Part of that process for her meant reconciling decisions she'd made in the past. So she called Alex to make a kind of confession. Lupe told Alex she had terminated pregnancies, both before Carmen and after.
After her divorce, Lupe threw herself into religion. Part of that process for her meant reconciling decisions she'd made in the past. So she called Alex to make a kind of confession. Lupe told Alex she had terminated pregnancies, both before Carmen and after.
Five years into their marriage, Nancy found a strange dating website on her work computer with a username she didn't recognize.
Five years into their marriage, Nancy found a strange dating website on her work computer with a username she didn't recognize.
Why had Lupe chosen to keep Carmen? The confession brought up those same feelings Carmen had for a long time. The sense that she was missing something. That she didn't have all the information.
Why had Lupe chosen to keep Carmen? The confession brought up those same feelings Carmen had for a long time. The sense that she was missing something. That she didn't have all the information.
Carmen was well into adulthood. Now she wondered, how much did she really know about her own story? Was there something her mother wasn't telling her?
Carmen was well into adulthood. Now she wondered, how much did she really know about her own story? Was there something her mother wasn't telling her?
And Nancy didn't either. Besides, her focus was on their daughter who had just started school.
And Nancy didn't either. Besides, her focus was on their daughter who had just started school.
He'd taken a demanding job at the Metro Rail. He often worked overtime hours to make extra money. They were only in their 30s, but they were already planning for an early retirement.
He'd taken a demanding job at the Metro Rail. He often worked overtime hours to make extra money. They were only in their 30s, but they were already planning for an early retirement.
A book where they wrote down their dreams for the future. In order to make those dreams happen, Nancy and Seth worked long hours. The only day they both had off was Sunday. That day was reserved for family.
A book where they wrote down their dreams for the future. In order to make those dreams happen, Nancy and Seth worked long hours. The only day they both had off was Sunday. That day was reserved for family.
Lupe was dying. And if Carmen wanted the truth, she was running out of time. That's when she got an unexpected call from Marty. By this point, he was divorced from Lupe and living in Rhode Island.
Lupe was dying. And if Carmen wanted the truth, she was running out of time. That's when she got an unexpected call from Marty. By this point, he was divorced from Lupe and living in Rhode Island.
One Sunday, Nancy was looking forward to their family time. But Seth took an overtime shift.
One Sunday, Nancy was looking forward to their family time. But Seth took an overtime shift.
He said he stayed late to talk to a co-worker who was having a relationship problem.
He said he stayed late to talk to a co-worker who was having a relationship problem.
Marty had known all along.
Marty had known all along.
She knew she'd caught Seth in a lie. He hadn't been at work that day at all, and he certainly hadn't been comforting a co-worker. So where was he? Instead of asking him directly, she decided to wait and see what else she could find out. Plus, she wasn't ready to accuse him of anything.
She knew she'd caught Seth in a lie. He hadn't been at work that day at all, and he certainly hadn't been comforting a co-worker. So where was he? Instead of asking him directly, she decided to wait and see what else she could find out. Plus, she wasn't ready to accuse him of anything.
Carmen had been explicitly told for decades that Marty wasn't her dad. And because of that, Poppy Wong supported them financially. The lie was like a wall that had been built in her family. And Carmen was left on the outside.
Carmen had been explicitly told for decades that Marty wasn't her dad. And because of that, Poppy Wong supported them financially. The lie was like a wall that had been built in her family. And Carmen was left on the outside.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Carmen Rita Wong grew up in New York in the 70s. Her earliest memories are of her mom Lupe. Lupe was glamorous.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Carmen Rita Wong grew up in New York in the 70s. Her earliest memories are of her mom Lupe. Lupe was glamorous.
Carmen left Marty's house enraged and in shock.
Carmen left Marty's house enraged and in shock.
Nancy was in bed late one night, and out of their bedroom window, she could see Seth standing outside their house.
Nancy was in bed late one night, and out of their bedroom window, she could see Seth standing outside their house.
It was in that moment that she asked herself a bigger question.
It was in that moment that she asked herself a bigger question.
She felt like she was being stripped of her identity as a Chinese Dominican woman. It was an identity she loved and had proudly carried for 30 years.
She felt like she was being stripped of her identity as a Chinese Dominican woman. It was an identity she loved and had proudly carried for 30 years.
After that, Seth was spooked. He knew she'd seen something. And Nancy knew that the figure next to him was no guardian angel.
After that, Seth was spooked. He knew she'd seen something. And Nancy knew that the figure next to him was no guardian angel.
As angry as she was at Marty, she knew who was actually behind this story.
As angry as she was at Marty, she knew who was actually behind this story.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Nancy grew up in Boston in the 70s. She was the youngest of three girls. From birth, she was deemed a medical miracle.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Nancy grew up in Boston in the 70s. She was the youngest of three girls. From birth, she was deemed a medical miracle.
She wasn't about to start spying on him. So she waited.
She wasn't about to start spying on him. So she waited.
But she kept setting traps in their conversations just to see how he would react.
But she kept setting traps in their conversations just to see how he would react.
So Carmen went to visit her mom in person.
So Carmen went to visit her mom in person.
Christmas was coming up, and that year, Seth went all out.
Christmas was coming up, and that year, Seth went all out.
It was a horrible position to be in, confronting her mother about a lie at the very end of her life.
It was a horrible position to be in, confronting her mother about a lie at the very end of her life.
This was Carmen's last chance to get the truth from her mom. And I told her what Marty told me. At first, Lupe was defensive.
This was Carmen's last chance to get the truth from her mom. And I told her what Marty told me. At first, Lupe was defensive.
As Christmas Day went on, she noticed that Seth was acting strange.
As Christmas Day went on, she noticed that Seth was acting strange.
And so Lupe broke down and told Carmen the full story. It started well before Alex and Carmen were born. She explained that her marriage to Poppy was never a love marriage. It was arranged by Lupe's father.
And so Lupe broke down and told Carmen the full story. It started well before Alex and Carmen were born. She explained that her marriage to Poppy was never a love marriage. It was arranged by Lupe's father.
Marrying Poppy Wong had been Lupe's pathway to American citizenship. That's why she cared so much about assimilation, about Carmen making it in this country. But Lupe was never in love with Poppy. He was a means to an end. And Marty, in his own way, was too.
Marrying Poppy Wong had been Lupe's pathway to American citizenship. That's why she cared so much about assimilation, about Carmen making it in this country. But Lupe was never in love with Poppy. He was a means to an end. And Marty, in his own way, was too.
There it was, the confession she'd been waiting for. But it was much bigger than she could have imagined. The revelation was so overwhelming, she passed out.
There it was, the confession she'd been waiting for. But it was much bigger than she could have imagined. The revelation was so overwhelming, she passed out.
Marrying Marty might have been opportunistic, but Lupe had actually loved him. She'd been seeing him on the side while in her arranged marriage to Poppy and even gotten pregnant with Marty multiple times. She and Marty weren't going to have children of their own while Lupe was still legally married to another man.
Marrying Marty might have been opportunistic, but Lupe had actually loved him. She'd been seeing him on the side while in her arranged marriage to Poppy and even gotten pregnant with Marty multiple times. She and Marty weren't going to have children of their own while Lupe was still legally married to another man.
Right after he left, Nancy called her mom. It was 3 a.m., but of course, her mom still picked up.
Right after he left, Nancy called her mom. It was 3 a.m., but of course, her mom still picked up.
Poppy showed up and said, no, don't do it. Poppy was certain this baby was his. Poppy vowed to take care of the baby, to support her. And that was enough for Lupe.
Poppy showed up and said, no, don't do it. Poppy was certain this baby was his. Poppy vowed to take care of the baby, to support her. And that was enough for Lupe.
The next morning, Seth was at their front door. He needed to pack a bag.
The next morning, Seth was at their front door. He needed to pack a bag.
Nancy figured that the dating website she'd seen years earlier was connected to this affair.
Nancy figured that the dating website she'd seen years earlier was connected to this affair.
Carmen felt like she finally had the full story, the truth.
Carmen felt like she finally had the full story, the truth.
Seth had been weaving a web of lies for their entire marriage. And Nancy was just starting to unravel it. She told him to expect divorce papers on Monday.
Seth had been weaving a web of lies for their entire marriage. And Nancy was just starting to unravel it. She told him to expect divorce papers on Monday.
With that conversation, their marriage was over. They'd been together for 15 years. Nancy thought she'd heard the worst of it, but she'd soon realize his deception was far bigger than an affair.
With that conversation, their marriage was over. They'd been together for 15 years. Nancy thought she'd heard the worst of it, but she'd soon realize his deception was far bigger than an affair.
Oscar de la Renta was one of the most expensive and exclusive designers in the world. First ladies and movie stars wore his designs.
Oscar de la Renta was one of the most expensive and exclusive designers in the world. First ladies and movie stars wore his designs.
Because of her heart condition, her mother kept a close eye on her. Her activities were restricted. She wasn't even allowed to go to gym class in school. Family and teachers babied her, mostly because she was so small.
Because of her heart condition, her mother kept a close eye on her. Her activities were restricted. She wasn't even allowed to go to gym class in school. Family and teachers babied her, mostly because she was so small.
Lupe's deathbed confession was the last time Carmen talked to her mother about her origin story. I never brought up that confrontation again.
Lupe's deathbed confession was the last time Carmen talked to her mother about her origin story. I never brought up that confrontation again.
Carmen was raised in Harlem, and she's proud of where she came from.
Carmen was raised in Harlem, and she's proud of where she came from.
After Lupe passed, Carmen began processing all this new information. It meant that she and Alex were technically half-siblings. It was heartbreaking, but it only brought them closer. She leaned on Alex to help her make a big decision, if she should tell Poppy. Because all of these years, Poppy believed both Alex and Carmen were his.
After Lupe passed, Carmen began processing all this new information. It meant that she and Alex were technically half-siblings. It was heartbreaking, but it only brought them closer. She leaned on Alex to help her make a big decision, if she should tell Poppy. Because all of these years, Poppy believed both Alex and Carmen were his.
Nancy's 15-year marriage was blown apart when her husband confessed to getting another woman pregnant. But that wasn't the whole story. The real story started before Seth and Nancy even met. Here's what Seth confessed.
Nancy's 15-year marriage was blown apart when her husband confessed to getting another woman pregnant. But that wasn't the whole story. The real story started before Seth and Nancy even met. Here's what Seth confessed.
After all, Poppy had been there for her, for her entire childhood, in ways Marty hadn't.
After all, Poppy had been there for her, for her entire childhood, in ways Marty hadn't.
She made a promise to Alex that she wouldn't tell Poppy.
She made a promise to Alex that she wouldn't tell Poppy.
Life moved on for Carmen. She'd been a magazine editor, an advice columnist, and had hosted a national TV news show. She had made it.
Life moved on for Carmen. She'd been a magazine editor, an advice columnist, and had hosted a national TV news show. She had made it.
The night Nancy first met Seth at the Caribbean club, that wasn't fate. It was orchestrated. She'd been singled out by Seth's Uncle Marvin, you know, the guy from work. And he invited Nancy there for a purpose.
The night Nancy first met Seth at the Caribbean club, that wasn't fate. It was orchestrated. She'd been singled out by Seth's Uncle Marvin, you know, the guy from work. And he invited Nancy there for a purpose.
She felt lucky meeting Seth at the club. But it turns out it was all planned for one goal.
She felt lucky meeting Seth at the club. But it turns out it was all planned for one goal.
They saw the tests as a novelty. Carmen, Alex, and one sister all took the test. They wanted to know more about their heritage.
They saw the tests as a novelty. Carmen, Alex, and one sister all took the test. They wanted to know more about their heritage.
When Nancy got pregnant, she knew Seth was still on his visa.
When Nancy got pregnant, she knew Seth was still on his visa.
It had been over a decade since Lupe passed away. Carmen already knew who her biological father was, so she was prepared to see that she was half Italian, from Marty's side.
It had been over a decade since Lupe passed away. Carmen already knew who her biological father was, so she was prepared to see that she was half Italian, from Marty's side.
She was having a baby and was scared to lose that. So back then, Nancy had jumped into action.
She was having a baby and was scared to lose that. So back then, Nancy had jumped into action.
The first result to come in was the heritage portion. It revealed she wasn't half Italian, like Marty. She was half Spanish.
The first result to come in was the heritage portion. It revealed she wasn't half Italian, like Marty. She was half Spanish.
Nancy saw the green card as another piece of paperwork they needed to get married. She had no idea she was part of an elaborate scheme.
Nancy saw the green card as another piece of paperwork they needed to get married. She had no idea she was part of an elaborate scheme.
And to add insult to injury, Seth had another reason why he chose Nancy.
And to add insult to injury, Seth had another reason why he chose Nancy.
The familial DNA was still processing, so she couldn't see the family tree.
The familial DNA was still processing, so she couldn't see the family tree.
When the DNA came in, she and Alex's family got on a FaceTime call to check the results together.
When the DNA came in, she and Alex's family got on a FaceTime call to check the results together.
This revelation made her feel as if her whole relationship was manufactured, that she'd been used.
This revelation made her feel as if her whole relationship was manufactured, that she'd been used.
Every day of their marriage, he welcomed her home with a glass of wine and a home-cooked meal. Nobody had ever shown her love like this before. If Nancy was just a means to an end, why did Seth bother staying with her for 15 years? Well, Nancy asked him that directly.
Every day of their marriage, he welcomed her home with a glass of wine and a home-cooked meal. Nobody had ever shown her love like this before. If Nancy was just a means to an end, why did Seth bother staying with her for 15 years? Well, Nancy asked him that directly.
As a kid, Nancy went to the cardiologist every week for her heart condition. She wasn't scared about it, but she knew her mom was.
As a kid, Nancy went to the cardiologist every week for her heart condition. She wasn't scared about it, but she knew her mom was.
Neither Poppy nor Marty were Carmen's biological father. Her mother had lied on her deathbed. The whole story she gave Carmen was not true. She'd lied to Carmen, to Marty, and to Poppy.
Neither Poppy nor Marty were Carmen's biological father. Her mother had lied on her deathbed. The whole story she gave Carmen was not true. She'd lied to Carmen, to Marty, and to Poppy.
Her mother was gone, and she'd taken the full story with her. Even when Carmen demanded the truth, her mother hadn't given it to her. And now Carmen was nowhere close to finding the real answer. The test told her who her father wasn't, but it didn't reveal who her biological father could be.
Her mother was gone, and she'd taken the full story with her. Even when Carmen demanded the truth, her mother hadn't given it to her. And now Carmen was nowhere close to finding the real answer. The test told her who her father wasn't, but it didn't reveal who her biological father could be.
Nancy had assumed the affair was from Seth's online dalliances as Peter Parker, but it turns out he'd been with the other woman for their entire marriage.
Nancy had assumed the affair was from Seth's online dalliances as Peter Parker, but it turns out he'd been with the other woman for their entire marriage.
Seth finally confessed his double life to Nancy because he was just in too deep. It turns out the pregnancy he told Nancy about wasn't the first one. He had a whole other family.
Seth finally confessed his double life to Nancy because he was just in too deep. It turns out the pregnancy he told Nancy about wasn't the first one. He had a whole other family.
Her brother Alex wasn't going to let Carmen go it alone. So he became her right hand on this journey.
Her brother Alex wasn't going to let Carmen go it alone. So he became her right hand on this journey.
They got to work. Their first stop, Miami, to visit their mother's lifelong best friend.
They got to work. Their first stop, Miami, to visit their mother's lifelong best friend.
All those years Seth claimed to be working overtime, he was actually going over to his other house, to his other children. It shattered Nancy's reality.
All those years Seth claimed to be working overtime, he was actually going over to his other house, to his other children. It shattered Nancy's reality.
No luck. Carmen and Alex spent months researching and investigating to get answers. But they kept coming up short. It was frustrating.
No luck. Carmen and Alex spent months researching and investigating to get answers. But they kept coming up short. It was frustrating.
Their daughter was 14 at the time, and Nancy wanted to protect her from the reality of her father's dishonesty. She tried to maintain a sense of stability for her and her daughter. She moved to a new place while they figured out the divorce, divided their assets, and split up shared lives.
Their daughter was 14 at the time, and Nancy wanted to protect her from the reality of her father's dishonesty. She tried to maintain a sense of stability for her and her daughter. She moved to a new place while they figured out the divorce, divided their assets, and split up shared lives.
It only furthered his resolve to help his sister.
It only furthered his resolve to help his sister.
He stayed committed to helping Carmen find answers right up until the end.
He stayed committed to helping Carmen find answers right up until the end.
Carmen's parents were separated. She lived with her mom and spent the weekends with her dad in Chinatown.
Carmen's parents were separated. She lived with her mom and spent the weekends with her dad in Chinatown.
They were waiting to put the house on the market until the divorce was final. In the meantime, clearing out the old house was a constant chore.
They were waiting to put the house on the market until the divorce was final. In the meantime, clearing out the old house was a constant chore.
In the wake of this loss, Carmen was left asking herself so many questions.
In the wake of this loss, Carmen was left asking herself so many questions.
Seth short-sold their house without telling Nancy. The person who'd opened the door was the new owner.
Seth short-sold their house without telling Nancy. The person who'd opened the door was the new owner.
She had so much pain, confusion, and anger. At this point, Carmen was thriving in her career as a professional writer. So she decided to use her writing skills to process these big questions. Questions that might go unanswered forever. She got a book deal at Penguin Random House. It would be a memoir called, Why Didn't You Tell Me?
She had so much pain, confusion, and anger. At this point, Carmen was thriving in her career as a professional writer. So she decided to use her writing skills to process these big questions. Questions that might go unanswered forever. She got a book deal at Penguin Random House. It would be a memoir called, Why Didn't You Tell Me?
Since it was a short sale, there wasn't even a profit to divide in their divorce, even though she'd paid half the mortgage for a decade. It felt like a slap in the face. She couldn't move out on her own terms. But to make matters worse, some of her most prized possessions were still sold with the house. and she would never see them again.
Since it was a short sale, there wasn't even a profit to divide in their divorce, even though she'd paid half the mortgage for a decade. It felt like a slap in the face. She couldn't move out on her own terms. But to make matters worse, some of her most prized possessions were still sold with the house. and she would never see them again.
Shortly after, she turned in the first draft of the book.
Shortly after, she turned in the first draft of the book.
She thought he was the epitome of cool.
She thought he was the epitome of cool.
After they separated, Seth wasted no time stepping into his new life. After all, he'd been building it for some time.
After they separated, Seth wasted no time stepping into his new life. After all, he'd been building it for some time.
Nancy was left to pick up the pieces. It all took an intense toll.
Nancy was left to pick up the pieces. It all took an intense toll.
And just like that, Carmen got the answer she'd been waiting for. Who her biological father was. And to her surprise, it was a man she'd never heard of. He was from the Canary Islands. And this whole time, he'd been much closer than she imagined.
And just like that, Carmen got the answer she'd been waiting for. Who her biological father was. And to her surprise, it was a man she'd never heard of. He was from the Canary Islands. And this whole time, he'd been much closer than she imagined.
She racked her brain for any memory of this man, but she didn't have one. So she asked her newfound half-sister if there was any way she could meet him. That's when she learned.
She racked her brain for any memory of this man, but she didn't have one. So she asked her newfound half-sister if there was any way she could meet him. That's when she learned.
She surpassed medical expectations and grew up to be healthy. But doctors told her she wouldn't be able to have kids of her own. The entire experience made Nancy and her mom really close.
She surpassed medical expectations and grew up to be healthy. But doctors told her she wouldn't be able to have kids of her own. The entire experience made Nancy and her mom really close.
It took years to recover emotionally and feel like herself again. And now, 15 years post-divorce, she's proud of how far she's come.
It took years to recover emotionally and feel like herself again. And now, 15 years post-divorce, she's proud of how far she's come.
If she couldn't meet him, she wanted to find out anything she could about his family. She learned her father was one of 11. And the youngest? Her name is Carmen.
If she couldn't meet him, she wanted to find out anything she could about his family. She learned her father was one of 11. And the youngest? Her name is Carmen.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
At this point, Carmen didn't know if Lupe ever knew who her father was, let alone if the biological father ever knew. But then her half-sister told her something interesting.
At this point, Carmen didn't know if Lupe ever knew who her father was, let alone if the biological father ever knew. But then her half-sister told her something interesting.
Carmen's biological father had known she was out there. That's the most proof she'll ever get about what Lupe really knew. It was the end of a roller coaster. Carmen's identity had been shifting for nearly her entire adult life.
Carmen's biological father had known she was out there. That's the most proof she'll ever get about what Lupe really knew. It was the end of a roller coaster. Carmen's identity had been shifting for nearly her entire adult life.
Carmen and her older brother Alex cherished these weekends with Poppy in his neighborhood.
Carmen and her older brother Alex cherished these weekends with Poppy in his neighborhood.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
She called the editor of her book, the one she'd just finished, and said, Um, we're going to need an epilogue.
She called the editor of her book, the one she'd just finished, and said, Um, we're going to need an epilogue.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
It's a unique position to have your fundamental identity shipped multiple times in your adult life. This is what she's learned from that experience.
It's a unique position to have your fundamental identity shipped multiple times in your adult life. This is what she's learned from that experience.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Carmen believes Lupe had a reason for keeping the secret. She thought back to moments in her childhood, like her mom's Mona Lisa smile, when a nun said Carmen must be smart because she was half Chinese. After all these years, Carmen has come to an understanding about her mom's choices.
Carmen believes Lupe had a reason for keeping the secret. She thought back to moments in her childhood, like her mom's Mona Lisa smile, when a nun said Carmen must be smart because she was half Chinese. After all these years, Carmen has come to an understanding about her mom's choices.
Early on in her life, Nancy saw that her father was treated differently than her mother.
Early on in her life, Nancy saw that her father was treated differently than her mother.
Now in her 50s, she's oriented herself to who she is and what family means to her.
Now in her 50s, she's oriented herself to who she is and what family means to her.
She didn't know what her father did for work, but whatever it was, it was important.
She didn't know what her father did for work, but whatever it was, it was important.
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
on the next episode of Betrayal.
on the next episode of Betrayal.
Her father was Black, and other kids teased Nancy about having interracial parents.
Her father was Black, and other kids teased Nancy about having interracial parents.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
But in Chinatown, Carmen stood out. She and Alex looked more Dominican than Chinese.
But in Chinatown, Carmen stood out. She and Alex looked more Dominican than Chinese.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Even though Poppy wasn't around every day, he supported Carmen and Alex financially.
Even though Poppy wasn't around every day, he supported Carmen and Alex financially.
When Nancy was a teenager, she met a boy in her neighborhood named Devon. He was always trying to catch her eye.
When Nancy was a teenager, she met a boy in her neighborhood named Devon. He was always trying to catch her eye.
When the weekend was over, Poppy would bring the kids back uptown.
When the weekend was over, Poppy would bring the kids back uptown.
One day, Devon brought her a present.
One day, Devon brought her a present.
She and Devon became high school sweethearts.
She and Devon became high school sweethearts.
Their parents' separation forged a strong bond between Carmen and her brother Alex.
Their parents' separation forged a strong bond between Carmen and her brother Alex.
Their plan was to be together forever. And to this day, Nancy still wishes they could have been. But tragedy derailed their future.
Their plan was to be together forever. And to this day, Nancy still wishes they could have been. But tragedy derailed their future.
They hung out after school, watching Godzilla and kung fu movies on the floor of their aunt's, cousin's, and friend's living rooms. But then one day, Carmen and Alex found themselves in an apartment they didn't recognize.
They hung out after school, watching Godzilla and kung fu movies on the floor of their aunt's, cousin's, and friend's living rooms. But then one day, Carmen and Alex found themselves in an apartment they didn't recognize.
He was in that car accident. He was a passenger in the collision, and they needed the jaws of life to pull him out of the car.
He was in that car accident. He was a passenger in the collision, and they needed the jaws of life to pull him out of the car.
She and her brother started sleeping over at this man's apartment.
She and her brother started sleeping over at this man's apartment.
She was by his side when he woke up from the coma.
She was by his side when he woke up from the coma.
Marty and Lupe's relationship moved very quickly. They started dating and then marriage.
Marty and Lupe's relationship moved very quickly. They started dating and then marriage.
Devon was never the same.
Devon was never the same.
Without warning, Lupe and Marty decided to move the family to New Hampshire.
Without warning, Lupe and Marty decided to move the family to New Hampshire.
After his traumatic brain injury, it wasn't the same relationship. It was a lot for a 17-year-old to manage emotionally. Nancy made the tough decision to leave Devon and focus on herself. She started her own life in Boston, working in the office of a stock brokerage. By her early 20s, she was living on her own and fully supporting herself.
After his traumatic brain injury, it wasn't the same relationship. It was a lot for a 17-year-old to manage emotionally. Nancy made the tough decision to leave Devon and focus on herself. She started her own life in Boston, working in the office of a stock brokerage. By her early 20s, she was living on her own and fully supporting herself.
The marriage and the move to New Hampshire was a big adjustment. Even just getting around town was a new experience. Carmen's mom lived in New York City for her entire adult life and didn't know how to drive a car.
The marriage and the move to New Hampshire was a big adjustment. Even just getting around town was a new experience. Carmen's mom lived in New York City for her entire adult life and didn't know how to drive a car.
Every day on her lunch break, Nancy chatted with a guy who worked outside her building.
Every day on her lunch break, Nancy chatted with a guy who worked outside her building.
His name was Marvin, and Marvin became a fixture in her daily life, a friendly face that she felt comfortable with.
His name was Marvin, and Marvin became a fixture in her daily life, a friendly face that she felt comfortable with.
This was the first time she realized that she could be judged by the color of her skin.
This was the first time she realized that she could be judged by the color of her skin.
He was Jamaican, and Nancy's dad was from Cuba, so she was interested in Boston's Caribbean community. That weekend, as promised, she and her friends stopped by. It was a lively scene with music and dancing.
He was Jamaican, and Nancy's dad was from Cuba, so she was interested in Boston's Caribbean community. That weekend, as promised, she and her friends stopped by. It was a lively scene with music and dancing.
And the culture shock didn't end there.
And the culture shock didn't end there.
But she hardly noticed because she got distracted by a guy her age named Seth.
But she hardly noticed because she got distracted by a guy her age named Seth.
Her mother taught her that being a good student was a way to blend in, to assimilate.
Her mother taught her that being a good student was a way to blend in, to assimilate.
Seth wasn't exactly her type.
Seth wasn't exactly her type.
Nancy and her friends decided to leave the party before it got too late.
Nancy and her friends decided to leave the party before it got too late.
Lupe enrolled Carmen in Catholic school, where her teachers were nuns. One night, at a parent-teacher conference... Sister Rita, I'll never forget, says to my mother...
Lupe enrolled Carmen in Catholic school, where her teachers were nuns. One night, at a parent-teacher conference... Sister Rita, I'll never forget, says to my mother...
Nancy found it endearing. She thought she was meeting up with a friend from work and instead ended up meeting this nice guy. It felt like fate. The next day, Seth called.
Nancy found it endearing. She thought she was meeting up with a friend from work and instead ended up meeting this nice guy. It felt like fate. The next day, Seth called.
He worked just a few blocks down from her apartment, so they agreed to meet up for lunch. Seth recently moved to Boston from Jamaica.
He worked just a few blocks down from her apartment, so they agreed to meet up for lunch. Seth recently moved to Boston from Jamaica.
She loved his Jamaican accent, especially the way he said her name. She also liked his easygoing personality. So she said yes to a second date. That's where he really impressed her. He cooked for me.
She loved his Jamaican accent, especially the way he said her name. She also liked his easygoing personality. So she said yes to a second date. That's where he really impressed her. He cooked for me.
Not only did Carmen feel like an outsider at school, but she began feeling that way in her own family, especially as her mom and Marty started having children of their own.
Not only did Carmen feel like an outsider at school, but she began feeling that way in her own family, especially as her mom and Marty started having children of their own.
She hadn't had a serious boyfriend since Devon in high school, and Seth reminded her a bit of him. He went out of his way to make her feel special, just like Devon had.
She hadn't had a serious boyfriend since Devon in high school, and Seth reminded her a bit of him. He went out of his way to make her feel special, just like Devon had.
Lupe reminded Carmen and Alex that they already had a father back in New York and that he was the one supporting them financially.
Lupe reminded Carmen and Alex that they already had a father back in New York and that he was the one supporting them financially.
After they'd been dating for a few months, Seth took Nancy to meet his uncle. He was one of a few people in Seth's family who also immigrated to Boston. When Nancy walked through the door, she was shocked. And I was like, I know him. It was Marvin, Nancy's lunch break buddy.
After they'd been dating for a few months, Seth took Nancy to meet his uncle. He was one of a few people in Seth's family who also immigrated to Boston. When Nancy walked through the door, she was shocked. And I was like, I know him. It was Marvin, Nancy's lunch break buddy.
She missed Poppy and their weekends together in Chinatown.
She missed Poppy and their weekends together in Chinatown.
Years later, Nancy would find out it wasn't much of a coincidence at all. That summer, she and Seth took their first vacation together. We went to New Hampshire, Hampton Beach.
Years later, Nancy would find out it wasn't much of a coincidence at all. That summer, she and Seth took their first vacation together. We went to New Hampshire, Hampton Beach.
Marty, even though he was distant, was the closest thing she had. So she started to call him dad.
Marty, even though he was distant, was the closest thing she had. So she started to call him dad.
She and Marty developed their own kind of bond.
She and Marty developed their own kind of bond.
Nancy had lived her whole life believing she'd never have kids. She told Seth she couldn't get pregnant. When she found out that she was expecting, it felt like another medical miracle. Her first call was to her mom. She was like, yeah, you'll have to get married now.
Nancy had lived her whole life believing she'd never have kids. She told Seth she couldn't get pregnant. When she found out that she was expecting, it felt like another medical miracle. Her first call was to her mom. She was like, yeah, you'll have to get married now.
It went on this way well into her teenage years, especially when Alex graduated from high school.
It went on this way well into her teenage years, especially when Alex graduated from high school.
It seemed old-fashioned, but she trusted her mom to guide her in the right direction.
It seemed old-fashioned, but she trusted her mom to guide her in the right direction.
He'd been the only person Carmen felt like was truly hers. The only one who really understood her. Poppy was financing Alex's education at an elite college.
He'd been the only person Carmen felt like was truly hers. The only one who really understood her. Poppy was financing Alex's education at an elite college.
One summer, Alex was helping Poppy at his job, delivering boxes of costume jewelry around New York.
One summer, Alex was helping Poppy at his job, delivering boxes of costume jewelry around New York.
He lied about his age. He wasn't 26 like he said. He was 19. Nancy was 23 at the time. Seth gave her a simple explanation.
He lied about his age. He wasn't 26 like he said. He was 19. Nancy was 23 at the time. Seth gave her a simple explanation.
It turned out those deliveries Poppy was making... Well, underneath the jewelry in the boxes...
It turned out those deliveries Poppy was making... Well, underneath the jewelry in the boxes...
Seth insisted that it wasn't a big deal.
Seth insisted that it wasn't a big deal.
She couldn't change his age, so she signed the papers.
She couldn't change his age, so she signed the papers.
A few weeks later, Nancy and Seth had a small wedding. The couple set their sights on parenthood. They got an adorable apartment on the top floor of a converted Boston mansion, complete with a castle-like turret.
A few weeks later, Nancy and Seth had a small wedding. The couple set their sights on parenthood. They got an adorable apartment on the top floor of a converted Boston mansion, complete with a castle-like turret.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Which I think she was getting evicted from and electricity had been shut off and it was just like in a bad state. Andrea's mom alleged that... She saw some paperwork for hospital admission that was on the date that she had said she was in the hospital. And she had been seen for dehydration. There was nothing else in the paperwork.
Which I think she was getting evicted from and electricity had been shut off and it was just like in a bad state. Andrea's mom alleged that... She saw some paperwork for hospital admission that was on the date that she had said she was in the hospital. And she had been seen for dehydration. There was nothing else in the paperwork.
She and I started talking and she told me, well, Megan told me that her fiance made it back in time and that he was the one who took her to the hospital and that they said goodbye to the babies and took pictures. You know, detailed, like really detailed versions. And so obviously like those are two completely separate stories.
She and I started talking and she told me, well, Megan told me that her fiance made it back in time and that he was the one who took her to the hospital and that they said goodbye to the babies and took pictures. You know, detailed, like really detailed versions. And so obviously like those are two completely separate stories.
He had witnessed some behavior with my sister and his son that had alarmed him and that had crossed the line for him and broke up with her. And then the next day, she came home from work with a positive pregnancy test. Now, my sister worked for an OBGYN clinic and then she brought home ultrasounds, which I had seen also ultrasound photos.
He had witnessed some behavior with my sister and his son that had alarmed him and that had crossed the line for him and broke up with her. And then the next day, she came home from work with a positive pregnancy test. Now, my sister worked for an OBGYN clinic and then she brought home ultrasounds, which I had seen also ultrasound photos.
And she had torn a piece of it off and he found the piece and it had someone else's name on it. And she gave him this explanation of like, oh, well, I just did the scan on myself and I had to enter someone else's name so that it would end. I mean, it's just like completely nonsense quality.
And she had torn a piece of it off and he found the piece and it had someone else's name on it. And she gave him this explanation of like, oh, well, I just did the scan on myself and I had to enter someone else's name so that it would end. I mean, it's just like completely nonsense quality.
The most likely outcome is that she had never been pregnant, you know, and this was not ever a real pregnancy. So that was a big deal because then this was a family crisis.
The most likely outcome is that she had never been pregnant, you know, and this was not ever a real pregnancy. So that was a big deal because then this was a family crisis.
I think I was in such shock and scared, honestly. Like, it's a scary thing to go down this road and start thinking about, like, what do you mean it wasn't real? Like, I just saw her. She looked pregnant. I felt baby's kick. Like, what are you talking about?
I think I was in such shock and scared, honestly. Like, it's a scary thing to go down this road and start thinking about, like, what do you mean it wasn't real? Like, I just saw her. She looked pregnant. I felt baby's kick. Like, what are you talking about?
I knew she was capable of being deceptive. I had seen that. But this was just such a deeper level, and it was so dramatic. Thinking about her sitting on the phone, just like in her apartment, narrating this whole thing to me was really, really disturbing.
I knew she was capable of being deceptive. I had seen that. But this was just such a deeper level, and it was so dramatic. Thinking about her sitting on the phone, just like in her apartment, narrating this whole thing to me was really, really disturbing.
My dad was obviously upset, but I think he was much more straightforward. You know, he's British, like stiff upper lip and sort of like, we're just going to like fix it. And like we got to just get in there and just get Megan shaped up, you know, kind of thing. So I think that was kind of his approach.
My dad was obviously upset, but I think he was much more straightforward. You know, he's British, like stiff upper lip and sort of like, we're just going to like fix it. And like we got to just get in there and just get Megan shaped up, you know, kind of thing. So I think that was kind of his approach.
She had this incredible ability to just sort of like turn the page. It was just kind of like this fever dream, right? Like you're just like, oh, that like weird thing happened. But it's just like, okay, we're all just gonna like put it in the corner. And maybe if we never talk about it again, like maybe we don't have to like think too hard about it.
She had this incredible ability to just sort of like turn the page. It was just kind of like this fever dream, right? Like you're just like, oh, that like weird thing happened. But it's just like, okay, we're all just gonna like put it in the corner. And maybe if we never talk about it again, like maybe we don't have to like think too hard about it.
She had stopped talking to me for months. So it's like, I think we all knew by that point that we will lose her if we try and hold her accountable. Like, if we push her on this pregnancy thing, she's going to stop talking to us.
She had stopped talking to me for months. So it's like, I think we all knew by that point that we will lose her if we try and hold her accountable. Like, if we push her on this pregnancy thing, she's going to stop talking to us.
And we thought he was such a standup guy. And then she just seemed better. And then again, there was just this like pretty quick, like turning of the page. You know, she was still at her job. She's got this boyfriend and then they got engaged. And then it was like, they had this like very big, you know, fancy wedding. And we were just like, okay, like a new chapter.
And we thought he was such a standup guy. And then she just seemed better. And then again, there was just this like pretty quick, like turning of the page. You know, she was still at her job. She's got this boyfriend and then they got engaged. And then it was like, they had this like very big, you know, fancy wedding. And we were just like, okay, like a new chapter.
The night before the wedding, we stayed at this beautiful hotel, the Fairmont in Seattle, and her friend brought like a photo album. And we were like looking at all these photos from growing up with each other and just like laughing. And then, you know, the next day we were like all getting ready in the bridal suite together. And it was just like such a happy moment.
The night before the wedding, we stayed at this beautiful hotel, the Fairmont in Seattle, and her friend brought like a photo album. And we were like looking at all these photos from growing up with each other and just like laughing. And then, you know, the next day we were like all getting ready in the bridal suite together. And it was just like such a happy moment.
And I remember thinking, oh, my sister is back. Like this is the version of her that I love and the version of her that I remember. She's so happy and look at her. Everything's going to be fine now. And, like, that is my last happy memory with Megan. Because it was not very long after that she got pregnant.
And I remember thinking, oh, my sister is back. Like this is the version of her that I love and the version of her that I remember. She's so happy and look at her. Everything's going to be fine now. And, like, that is my last happy memory with Megan. Because it was not very long after that she got pregnant.
There was a tech in there, and I saw the images of it, and I remember thinking, like, But is she really pregnant? Andrea was guarded. And then on New Year's Eve, again, New Year's Eve, so anniversary, I had stayed home. My parents went to their house in California. So they were out of town again. And she went into labor early.
There was a tech in there, and I saw the images of it, and I remember thinking, like, But is she really pregnant? Andrea was guarded. And then on New Year's Eve, again, New Year's Eve, so anniversary, I had stayed home. My parents went to their house in California. So they were out of town again. And she went into labor early.
So I went to the hospital immediately. Again, it was sort of this thing of like, okay, well, I'm here, I'm seeing it. It is really happening. But I remember until I saw the baby, I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't, like, I cannot be sure.
So I went to the hospital immediately. Again, it was sort of this thing of like, okay, well, I'm here, I'm seeing it. It is really happening. But I remember until I saw the baby, I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't, like, I cannot be sure.
And you know, when he left the hospital, his prognosis was good.
And you know, when he left the hospital, his prognosis was good.
He immediately started having all these issues and he was having issues around his feeding and developmental milestones. And my sister was talking about it a lot. And it was definitely during this period that like something really started to feel like off, off and like scary off.
He immediately started having all these issues and he was having issues around his feeding and developmental milestones. And my sister was talking about it a lot. And it was definitely during this period that like something really started to feel like off, off and like scary off.
You know, I have a really vivid memory of being at my parents' house with Megan and my nephew and just looking at her and having this really strong feeling of like she's not there.
You know, I have a really vivid memory of being at my parents' house with Megan and my nephew and just looking at her and having this really strong feeling of like she's not there.
He wasn't gaining weight and he was diagnosed failure to thrive. He had a nasal feeding tube, which goes, you know, nasal gastric, which goes in through the nose down to the stomach.
He wasn't gaining weight and he was diagnosed failure to thrive. He had a nasal feeding tube, which goes, you know, nasal gastric, which goes in through the nose down to the stomach.
My sister was telling us that the next sort of step in this intervention was to have a surgically implanted feeding tube, a gastric tube, in his stomach.
My sister was telling us that the next sort of step in this intervention was to have a surgically implanted feeding tube, a gastric tube, in his stomach.
By this point, my parents and I had been discussing our concerns.
By this point, my parents and I had been discussing our concerns.
I really think of this as like this moment that like sort of split my life in half. Like there's a very, very distinct sort of before and after. And I remember thinking like, oh, my family, as I know it, is over.
I really think of this as like this moment that like sort of split my life in half. Like there's a very, very distinct sort of before and after. And I remember thinking like, oh, my family, as I know it, is over.
For the most part, she would not let people come to the doctor with her, but for some reason, she let my mom come to his gastroenterology appointment.
For the most part, she would not let people come to the doctor with her, but for some reason, she let my mom come to his gastroenterology appointment.
At the appointment... They discussed this feeding tube intervention and the doctor said, no, we want to hold off on that for now. Let's wait and see. Let's try and keep him on the nasal tube. And obviously this surgical intervention is not unserious.
At the appointment... They discussed this feeding tube intervention and the doctor said, no, we want to hold off on that for now. Let's wait and see. Let's try and keep him on the nasal tube. And obviously this surgical intervention is not unserious.
And she said, yeah, the doctor said, you know, they're really pushing me. They're really saying he needs this surgery. And I knew it was a lie. Why would you want your baby to have a surgery if they didn't need it?
And she said, yeah, the doctor said, you know, they're really pushing me. They're really saying he needs this surgery. And I knew it was a lie. Why would you want your baby to have a surgery if they didn't need it?
What? I was like, it's the middle of the day. Like, why is my dad not in the office? And just being like, this is very weird. And then they came in and they sat down with me. And they said, we talked to our family doctor about these concerns. And she said that this sounds like Munchausen by proxy.
What? I was like, it's the middle of the day. Like, why is my dad not in the office? And just being like, this is very weird. And then they came in and they sat down with me. And they said, we talked to our family doctor about these concerns. And she said that this sounds like Munchausen by proxy.
It really felt like this moment that like sort of split my life in half. I remember thinking like, oh, my family, like as I know it, is over.
It really felt like this moment that like sort of split my life in half. I remember thinking like, oh, my family, like as I know it, is over.
My mom took her to the dermatologist and found out that she was actually shaving it off and lying about it.
My mom took her to the dermatologist and found out that she was actually shaving it off and lying about it.
I mean, there's just so much had piled up. And then we had seen her tell this just like very direct lie about the gastric tube.
I mean, there's just so much had piled up. And then we had seen her tell this just like very direct lie about the gastric tube.
You have to reframe a person once you realize that they're capable of harming a child. That's a vulnerable little person involved. And I loved that baby.
You have to reframe a person once you realize that they're capable of harming a child. That's a vulnerable little person involved. And I loved that baby.
I mean, it's just like, it didn't seem like there was another option. And my mom, very brave of her, called the gastroenterologist at the appointment she'd been in. Went in and she told him our concerns. She told him the history of Megan lying about her own stuff, of the pregnancy, fake pregnancy. And he said, well, do you feel like it's time for an intervention? And she said, yes.
I mean, it's just like, it didn't seem like there was another option. And my mom, very brave of her, called the gastroenterologist at the appointment she'd been in. Went in and she told him our concerns. She told him the history of Megan lying about her own stuff, of the pregnancy, fake pregnancy. And he said, well, do you feel like it's time for an intervention? And she said, yes.
And she was imagining like, okay, we're all going to get together in like a hospital conference room and talk about it and try and get, you know, Megan on the straight and narrow. And that's not what he was talking about.
And she was imagining like, okay, we're all going to get together in like a hospital conference room and talk about it and try and get, you know, Megan on the straight and narrow. And that's not what he was talking about.
And then they ended up doing an emergency removal.
And then they ended up doing an emergency removal.
He called us and was hysterical and distraught. CPS just came and took their son. We were shocked. We did not know that was going to happen. And Megan and Andy very quickly found out that my mother had made that call and were very angry with her.
He called us and was hysterical and distraught. CPS just came and took their son. We were shocked. We did not know that was going to happen. And Megan and Andy very quickly found out that my mother had made that call and were very angry with her.
You know, I think we like really naively thought like, well, they're involved, like the doctors reported, right? The doctors understand this is happening. Someone's going to do something.
You know, I think we like really naively thought like, well, they're involved, like the doctors reported, right? The doctors understand this is happening. Someone's going to do something.
The placement was a disaster. They placed the baby with my sister's in-laws, who did not believe that she was abusing him, so they let her see him all the time. And it's very important to keep child separated so that you can see what their health is without the influence of the parent.
The placement was a disaster. They placed the baby with my sister's in-laws, who did not believe that she was abusing him, so they let her see him all the time. And it's very important to keep child separated so that you can see what their health is without the influence of the parent.
There was no police investigation. There should have been. There should always be.
There was no police investigation. There should have been. There should always be.
My mom and I went and it was my sister and her husband and his parents and like four of his aunties and his best friend and his best friend's wife. I mean, just this like mob of people in this like little room in like the courthouse. Everybody got their chance to talk about how my sister was the most wonderful mother in the world and how could my mother and I ever accuse her.
My mom and I went and it was my sister and her husband and his parents and like four of his aunties and his best friend and his best friend's wife. I mean, just this like mob of people in this like little room in like the courthouse. Everybody got their chance to talk about how my sister was the most wonderful mother in the world and how could my mother and I ever accuse her.
Just like the meanest looks I've ever gotten in my life. Just people looking at us like we were just scum of the earth. It was just so awful. I remember really looking at my brother-in-law's mom like, come on, you have to see this. Why would we be doing this? We have known her all our lives, and she has this, like, long history. And, you know, my sister's just shaking her head.
Just like the meanest looks I've ever gotten in my life. Just people looking at us like we were just scum of the earth. It was just so awful. I remember really looking at my brother-in-law's mom like, come on, you have to see this. Why would we be doing this? We have known her all our lives, and she has this, like, long history. And, you know, my sister's just shaking her head.
And I was just like, oh, my God, she's like a cult leader.
And I was just like, oh, my God, she's like a cult leader.
My sister and I are less than two years apart. She was born in 80. I was born in 82, right? So I feel like we had this very happy childhood. It feels like a real bygone era now, right? They grew up in an affluent Seattle suburb. You know, we were friends with all the other kids on our block and there was like not busy streets, like a lot of like riding bikes.
My sister and I are less than two years apart. She was born in 80. I was born in 82, right? So I feel like we had this very happy childhood. It feels like a real bygone era now, right? They grew up in an affluent Seattle suburb. You know, we were friends with all the other kids on our block and there was like not busy streets, like a lot of like riding bikes.
They basically told her, like, ma'am, you need to get some therapy. And just this sort of soft, so it seemed like there was, like, some acknowledgement that things had been happening, but just, like, no understanding of, like, what was actually happening and, like, not a solution.
They basically told her, like, ma'am, you need to get some therapy. And just this sort of soft, so it seemed like there was, like, some acknowledgement that things had been happening, but just, like, no understanding of, like, what was actually happening and, like, not a solution.
And I remember, like, the first Christmas without her was horrible. And you just think like, could this really be permanent?
And I remember, like, the first Christmas without her was horrible. And you just think like, could this really be permanent?
And we felt so much relief because he got in touch with my dad. He wanted to talk about this, what had happened. We were like, okay, now he's seen it for his own eyes. Maybe Andy would see the Dunlop side of things. And he was expressing to us, like, I really want to, you know, I know Megan misses you guys. I want you guys to reconcile. I'm working on it. I'm talking to her. She's just so sad.
And we felt so much relief because he got in touch with my dad. He wanted to talk about this, what had happened. We were like, okay, now he's seen it for his own eyes. Maybe Andy would see the Dunlop side of things. And he was expressing to us, like, I really want to, you know, I know Megan misses you guys. I want you guys to reconcile. I'm working on it. I'm talking to her. She's just so sad.
She feels betrayed. And he was still saying, like, oh, she'd never harm her child. She'd never harm her child. And this was just back and forth with my dad.
She feels betrayed. And he was still saying, like, oh, she'd never harm her child. She'd never harm her child. And this was just back and forth with my dad.
He had also realized as they'd been married for a little bit, the extent of my sister's financial troubles. And so he was also trying to get my dad to like help them out financially. And, you know, my dad was like, yes, I want to help, but you need to send me my grandson's medical records, which seems like a fair trade. And he just absolutely refused to do it. He's like, that's not appropriate.
He had also realized as they'd been married for a little bit, the extent of my sister's financial troubles. And so he was also trying to get my dad to like help them out financially. And, you know, my dad was like, yes, I want to help, but you need to send me my grandson's medical records, which seems like a fair trade. And he just absolutely refused to do it. He's like, that's not appropriate.
It's not appropriate for you to ask for that.
It's not appropriate for you to ask for that.
I think a lot about like if I had stayed in my sister's life and sort of stayed wrapped up in all of this, if I would have been able to have any of those things because it had taken quite a bit of work to get back to like a healthy place after all that happened.
I think a lot about like if I had stayed in my sister's life and sort of stayed wrapped up in all of this, if I would have been able to have any of those things because it had taken quite a bit of work to get back to like a healthy place after all that happened.
We played outdoors a lot, built a lot of forts, climbed a lot of trees. Just like such a dream, such a dream childhood.
We played outdoors a lot, built a lot of forts, climbed a lot of trees. Just like such a dream, such a dream childhood.
She went into labor at like 24 weeks. That baby died. And she posted a picture of herself with that baby on her social media. So I found out about that. That got back to us. And I remember like my mother looked up the death certificate because we weren't really sure whether to believe that. But that was true. That happened.
She went into labor at like 24 weeks. That baby died. And she posted a picture of herself with that baby on her social media. So I found out about that. That got back to us. And I remember like my mother looked up the death certificate because we weren't really sure whether to believe that. But that was true. That happened.
They learned that after she lost the baby... Right after that, she got pregnant with my niece. So seven months after losing the baby, she has another baby, again at 24 weeks. This baby, my niece, survives, but is in the hospital. You know, obviously a baby born that early is going to be in the hospital for a while.
They learned that after she lost the baby... Right after that, she got pregnant with my niece. So seven months after losing the baby, she has another baby, again at 24 weeks. This baby, my niece, survives, but is in the hospital. You know, obviously a baby born that early is going to be in the hospital for a while.
That was until... A family member reaches out to us because my niece is on the, like, you know, hospital's fundraising pages have, like, stories of kids that are sick and are at the hospital a lot. And my niece was on that page.
That was until... A family member reaches out to us because my niece is on the, like, you know, hospital's fundraising pages have, like, stories of kids that are sick and are at the hospital a lot. And my niece was on that page.
And it was like this, you know, laundry list of like all the things all the time. You know, she spent most of her life in the hospital. She's had, you know, this, she has these many pokes a day, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And it was like this, you know, laundry list of like all the things all the time. You know, she spent most of her life in the hospital. She's had, you know, this, she has these many pokes a day, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But when I was a kid, I was not really the kid that would just like go up to a person and be like, hello. And my sister always was that person, right? She just always seemed to have a really easy time connecting with people. She seemed like especially good at relationships.
But when I was a kid, I was not really the kid that would just like go up to a person and be like, hello. And my sister always was that person, right? She just always seemed to have a really easy time connecting with people. She seemed like especially good at relationships.
She'd, like, been in the news, been doing some fundraising here and there. You know, like, she'd been in a couple articles about, oh, this mom that has these two children, you know, who have all these issues. At that point, my dad sent a letter to the hospital letting them know about, like, the history because this was, like, at a different hospital than had treated my nephew.
She'd, like, been in the news, been doing some fundraising here and there. You know, like, she'd been in a couple articles about, oh, this mom that has these two children, you know, who have all these issues. At that point, my dad sent a letter to the hospital letting them know about, like, the history because this was, like, at a different hospital than had treated my nephew.
And at this point, I really told my parents. I was like, you know, I don't want to hear updates anymore. Like, there's nothing I can do about any of this. It's so upsetting to learn about these things and to see, you know, her in the news and all this stuff. And I was like, I don't want to know until something major happens. Like, I just don't want to know anymore.
And at this point, I really told my parents. I was like, you know, I don't want to hear updates anymore. Like, there's nothing I can do about any of this. It's so upsetting to learn about these things and to see, you know, her in the news and all this stuff. And I was like, I don't want to know until something major happens. Like, I just don't want to know anymore.
Not long after that, I got a phone call from my dad saying that he had heard from a police detective and that Megan was being investigated, this time for her younger daughter.
Not long after that, I got a phone call from my dad saying that he had heard from a police detective and that Megan was being investigated, this time for her younger daughter.
They caught her disposing of anticoagulant medication that her daughter was supposed to get, like covering it on the bedsheets, and then her daughter got a life-threatening blood clot and ended up in the PICU. I think at that point we thought, okay, like, not in a vindictive way, but they're going to get her. Like, they've got it. They have such strong evidence.
They caught her disposing of anticoagulant medication that her daughter was supposed to get, like covering it on the bedsheets, and then her daughter got a life-threatening blood clot and ended up in the PICU. I think at that point we thought, okay, like, not in a vindictive way, but they're going to get her. Like, they've got it. They have such strong evidence.
My third novel, We Came Here to Forget, published. And that novel is based very heavily on my experiences with my sister. And so I did some press around the book, like before the book came out. So this is the first time that I'd ever publicly talked about my sister. You know, I was very like careful and guarded sort of with what I said, you know.
My third novel, We Came Here to Forget, published. And that novel is based very heavily on my experiences with my sister. And so I did some press around the book, like before the book came out. So this is the first time that I'd ever publicly talked about my sister. You know, I was very like careful and guarded sort of with what I said, you know.
So I was talking about that family connection in the lead up to this book. And four days before the publication of that book, I was on my way to a friend's wedding, was in the car with my husband and one of my best friends. And I got an email from my sister's attorney.
So I was talking about that family connection in the lead up to this book. And four days before the publication of that book, I was on my way to a friend's wedding, was in the car with my husband and one of my best friends. And I got an email from my sister's attorney.
It was a cease and desist asking me to retract my statements to Vanity Fair, canceled the publication of my book, canceled my book doer, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It was a cease and desist asking me to retract my statements to Vanity Fair, canceled the publication of my book, canceled my book doer, blah, blah, blah, blah.
He included an excerpt from the family court judge who had just returned custody of my sister's children to her. So that is how I found out that information. Charges were never filed against her.
He included an excerpt from the family court judge who had just returned custody of my sister's children to her. So that is how I found out that information. Charges were never filed against her.
I later followed up with that office to find out why, in the face of such strong evidence, including a medical record review of these 73,000 pages of medical records that my five-year-old niece had at that time.
I later followed up with that office to find out why, in the face of such strong evidence, including a medical record review of these 73,000 pages of medical records that my five-year-old niece had at that time.
It's like you have the sibling code. This code of, like, nobody's snitching to mom and dad. So, like, if you're sneaking out or, like, pretending you were somewhere else when you were at your boyfriend's house. A lot of, like, girly secret-keeping stuff and just kind of, like, a sibling co-conspirator.
It's like you have the sibling code. This code of, like, nobody's snitching to mom and dad. So, like, if you're sneaking out or, like, pretending you were somewhere else when you were at your boyfriend's house. A lot of, like, girly secret-keeping stuff and just kind of, like, a sibling co-conspirator.
During that time, I met Dr. Mark Feldman, who is this tremendous expert who I've become very close with, who is a psychiatrist who's been, you know, studying Munchausen by proxy for decades. And then I became interested in how I could be useful to this cause.
During that time, I met Dr. Mark Feldman, who is this tremendous expert who I've become very close with, who is a psychiatrist who's been, you know, studying Munchausen by proxy for decades. And then I became interested in how I could be useful to this cause.
That was the first time I'd ever heard from another family member who'd been through a case. And it's just like completely changed the direction of my life and my career.
That was the first time I'd ever heard from another family member who'd been through a case. And it's just like completely changed the direction of my life and my career.
I'm a storyteller. That's what I have skill set in. Obviously, at that time, I was writing, but I was getting interested in podcasting. And just thought, because I was a big podcast listener and loved the medium, and it was like, oh, this is a true crime podcast.
I'm a storyteller. That's what I have skill set in. Obviously, at that time, I was writing, but I was getting interested in podcasting. And just thought, because I was a big podcast listener and loved the medium, and it was like, oh, this is a true crime podcast.
By and large, like people don't know what this is. They don't understand it. There's a lot of misconceptions. I was like, well, this is something like I can be helpful with. I know the media because I'm a publicist, I'm a writer. I can tell these stories. Didn't want to present myself as some kind of like objective journalist that's just like found this topic interesting, right?
By and large, like people don't know what this is. They don't understand it. There's a lot of misconceptions. I was like, well, this is something like I can be helpful with. I know the media because I'm a publicist, I'm a writer. I can tell these stories. Didn't want to present myself as some kind of like objective journalist that's just like found this topic interesting, right?
This would be totally disingenuous.
This would be totally disingenuous.
One of the stories I really connected with as I was learning that there were other stories, right, about this was a Hope Ybarra case because it had all of these similarities to my family's case in that Hope Ybarra had been this very intelligent, very promising woman.
One of the stories I really connected with as I was learning that there were other stories, right, about this was a Hope Ybarra case because it had all of these similarities to my family's case in that Hope Ybarra had been this very intelligent, very promising woman.
And she also had this family that had been very close and really took the same series of events where they uncovered some of Hope's very large deceptions. And then her mother became concerned about her granddaughter and called one of the granddaughter's doctors.
And she also had this family that had been very close and really took the same series of events where they uncovered some of Hope's very large deceptions. And then her mother became concerned about her granddaughter and called one of the granddaughter's doctors.
Hope had also had a fake pregnancy. It had also been twin girls. It was just these things where I was like, are they talking to each other? I mean, like just where you feel, and I get this feeling all the time looking at cases where you feel like there is this just playbook, right? The pattern of abuse is so strong. The premature births, the feeding interventions, like this strong, strong pattern.
Hope had also had a fake pregnancy. It had also been twin girls. It was just these things where I was like, are they talking to each other? I mean, like just where you feel, and I get this feeling all the time looking at cases where you feel like there is this just playbook, right? The pattern of abuse is so strong. The premature births, the feeding interventions, like this strong, strong pattern.
And so I felt so drawn to this storytelling.
And so I felt so drawn to this storytelling.
So I ended up interviewing, you know, her husband, Fabian, and then her father, Paul, her sister, her younger sister, Robin, which was the very, very first interview I ever did. And then her brother, Nick, you know, we ended up going down to Fort Worth to meet with their family. And I just loved them so much. I mean, they were just the sweetest people and they clearly had really loved Hope.
So I ended up interviewing, you know, her husband, Fabian, and then her father, Paul, her sister, her younger sister, Robin, which was the very, very first interview I ever did. And then her brother, Nick, you know, we ended up going down to Fort Worth to meet with their family. And I just loved them so much. I mean, they were just the sweetest people and they clearly had really loved Hope.
And especially, I mean, you know, talking to Robin, who was the younger sister, just like that we'd had such a similar experience. It was just an extraordinary kind of journey to go on because you're just like, oh my God, I've never talked to another person that's ever been through anything like this. And then you're talking to a person who's had the exact same experience. It is profound.
And especially, I mean, you know, talking to Robin, who was the younger sister, just like that we'd had such a similar experience. It was just an extraordinary kind of journey to go on because you're just like, oh my God, I've never talked to another person that's ever been through anything like this. And then you're talking to a person who's had the exact same experience. It is profound.
Yeah, and then the show, to a hugely unexpected degree, took off.
Yeah, and then the show, to a hugely unexpected degree, took off.
I founded Munchausen Support, which is the only nonprofit in the country that is dedicated specifically to supporting families and survivors who are dealing with this abuse and also helping professionals.
I founded Munchausen Support, which is the only nonprofit in the country that is dedicated specifically to supporting families and survivors who are dealing with this abuse and also helping professionals.
My memory of it was that it was sports injuries. I have a really strong memory of this like weird plastic back brace that she had that she would wear.
My memory of it was that it was sports injuries. I have a really strong memory of this like weird plastic back brace that she had that she would wear.
I think a lot about what my sister's future might look like if her kids grow up and leave. And certainly I hope that someday I will hear from her children. I really did all of this because of them and part of what we're up to at Munchausen Support and building some kind of resources for survivors and really thinking about ways in which we can help survivors is also like I built that for them.
I think a lot about what my sister's future might look like if her kids grow up and leave. And certainly I hope that someday I will hear from her children. I really did all of this because of them and part of what we're up to at Munchausen Support and building some kind of resources for survivors and really thinking about ways in which we can help survivors is also like I built that for them.
The book, I mean, that actually is a more natural medium for me because I am a writer written for novels. And I loved being able to put the cases so in context, put them in some cultural context, put them in a context of like, this is a pattern.
The book, I mean, that actually is a more natural medium for me because I am a writer written for novels. And I loved being able to put the cases so in context, put them in some cultural context, put them in a context of like, this is a pattern.
This is a, you know, this is a crime that like you can recognize and name and teach people how to deal with and just being able to give some kind of sort of proactive advice. And I think my message I always want people to take away is that this can happen to anyone. This is not race specific. This is not class specific. This is something that happens, you know, in other countries.
This is a, you know, this is a crime that like you can recognize and name and teach people how to deal with and just being able to give some kind of sort of proactive advice. And I think my message I always want people to take away is that this can happen to anyone. This is not race specific. This is not class specific. This is something that happens, you know, in other countries.
And it oftentimes, you know, some of the perpetrators seem like weirdos, but a lot of them seem like really nice, normal moms. It's just like the mom on the PTA.
And it oftentimes, you know, some of the perpetrators seem like weirdos, but a lot of them seem like really nice, normal moms. It's just like the mom on the PTA.
I have some sympathy for family members that get caught up in this and end up supporting them. The perpetrators, because I've been there, I know how hard that is to accept that someone you love is capable of this. Just to accept that anybody is capable of this, I think is so, so hard. We're just all trying to like chip away until there's like a sort of breaking the damn moment.
I have some sympathy for family members that get caught up in this and end up supporting them. The perpetrators, because I've been there, I know how hard that is to accept that someone you love is capable of this. Just to accept that anybody is capable of this, I think is so, so hard. We're just all trying to like chip away until there's like a sort of breaking the damn moment.
And so that's sort of how I think about it. And just like every win, you hold on to every win. If the show reaches someone that needed to hear it that day, you know, which I know these things have happened because I just, I hear from so many people and then they end up reporting or trying to intervene.
And so that's sort of how I think about it. And just like every win, you hold on to every win. If the show reaches someone that needed to hear it that day, you know, which I know these things have happened because I just, I hear from so many people and then they end up reporting or trying to intervene.
She was saying she was having all this pain in her knee and they went in and did a surgery. And they couldn't find anything.
She was saying she was having all this pain in her knee and they went in and did a surgery. And they couldn't find anything.
And it's not acceptable to remain in denial because the person who suffers for that is the child who has no voice, who has no say, who is depending on those family members to recognize it and to intervene.
And it's not acceptable to remain in denial because the person who suffers for that is the child who has no voice, who has no say, who is depending on those family members to recognize it and to intervene.
I have a really strong core belief that stories are the best way to learn and to move people on an issue. There's so much noise and so much distraction and people are not convinced by evidence. They're not convinced by facts. And we live in this time of too much information. So I think like the human element of a story is like that's where we connect to things. That's what cuts out the noise.
I have a really strong core belief that stories are the best way to learn and to move people on an issue. There's so much noise and so much distraction and people are not convinced by evidence. They're not convinced by facts. And we live in this time of too much information. So I think like the human element of a story is like that's where we connect to things. That's what cuts out the noise.
And I think that stories can help us feel less alone. And especially if there's something where it's incredibly high taboo, where there's a high degree of shame, where it's this thing that's just in the darkness. I think the only antidote to that is bringing it to light.
And I think that stories can help us feel less alone. And especially if there's something where it's incredibly high taboo, where there's a high degree of shame, where it's this thing that's just in the darkness. I think the only antidote to that is bringing it to light.
There was an incident in high school where she was losing her hair all of a sudden. And that was very memorable because that's like a big deal. And you're a teenage girl and like losing your hair, which is like such a nightmare. So I remember hearing conversations about that and thinking like, oh, wow, my sister's just really unlucky that she has all these things happen.
There was an incident in high school where she was losing her hair all of a sudden. And that was very memorable because that's like a big deal. And you're a teenage girl and like losing your hair, which is like such a nightmare. So I remember hearing conversations about that and thinking like, oh, wow, my sister's just really unlucky that she has all these things happen.
And there was certainly, I remember in our teenage years, kind of a feeling of like, oh, there's always something like, oh, it doesn't get better. And then it's this and then it's that.
And there was certainly, I remember in our teenage years, kind of a feeling of like, oh, there's always something like, oh, it doesn't get better. And then it's this and then it's that.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Oh yeah, like she's brave. She's stoic. She has this tough thing, but she's just like kind of persevering.
Oh yeah, like she's brave. She's stoic. She has this tough thing, but she's just like kind of persevering.
I was obsessed with magazines when I was a teenager. I was just like young people today could never imagine like the hold that magazines had on us as teenagers. Because, you know, I was like living in this very like sleepy suburb, which is like, again, a very nice childhood experience to have.
I was obsessed with magazines when I was a teenager. I was just like young people today could never imagine like the hold that magazines had on us as teenagers. Because, you know, I was like living in this very like sleepy suburb, which is like, again, a very nice childhood experience to have.
Yeah, this was a time where I was just like, oh my God, my sister is a college girl. And so like, I would go to parties with them and I had my little fake ID. So we would go to the clubs in Canada where they could get in when they were 19. So yeah, sorry, mom and dad. But yeah, we had a great time and it just seemed like the coolest thing ever.
Yeah, this was a time where I was just like, oh my God, my sister is a college girl. And so like, I would go to parties with them and I had my little fake ID. So we would go to the clubs in Canada where they could get in when they were 19. So yeah, sorry, mom and dad. But yeah, we had a great time and it just seemed like the coolest thing ever.
I think those were some of like the easiest years of our relationship.
I think those were some of like the easiest years of our relationship.
So it was a surprise to the family when she announced... That she wanted to do pre-med as a major and really started talking about getting into the medical field. But, you know, given that my sister was not a big school person, obviously becoming a doctor involves a lot of school. So I think it was a little bit like, well, all right, like, it's okay.
So it was a surprise to the family when she announced... That she wanted to do pre-med as a major and really started talking about getting into the medical field. But, you know, given that my sister was not a big school person, obviously becoming a doctor involves a lot of school. So I think it was a little bit like, well, all right, like, it's okay.
Better start maybe, you know, studying a bit more. And then eventually she dropped out of college and went to get her nursing degree. And I remember thinking, oh, this seems like a really good field for her.
Better start maybe, you know, studying a bit more. And then eventually she dropped out of college and went to get her nursing degree. And I remember thinking, oh, this seems like a really good field for her.
It was horrible. And Megan started going to see him a lot. I remember thinking like, oh, I feel very scared of this. And it doesn't seem like my sister feels scared of it. And I remember just admiring that about her.
It was horrible. And Megan started going to see him a lot. I remember thinking like, oh, I feel very scared of this. And it doesn't seem like my sister feels scared of it. And I remember just admiring that about her.
She seemed to be, like, really thriving in her job. You know, this is an office that I would go to. I knew a bunch of people from the office, so I knew. She was, like, very well-liked in that office. She had a lot of friends. Like, people seemed to really respect her. I would get in the habit very much of, like, asking my sister, you know, whatever, like, medical questions.
She seemed to be, like, really thriving in her job. You know, this is an office that I would go to. I knew a bunch of people from the office, so I knew. She was, like, very well-liked in that office. She had a lot of friends. Like, people seemed to really respect her. I would get in the habit very much of, like, asking my sister, you know, whatever, like, medical questions.
you know, was 21, 22. I was very much the era of the 10 things I hate about you, devil wears product. It was like, you're going to move to the big city and you're going to work for a magazine. So that's what, that's what I want to do is like, okay, I'm going to go be like a magazine journalist. And then, yeah, I look back and I just have to laugh at myself.
you know, was 21, 22. I was very much the era of the 10 things I hate about you, devil wears product. It was like, you're going to move to the big city and you're going to work for a magazine. So that's what, that's what I want to do is like, okay, I'm going to go be like a magazine journalist. And then, yeah, I look back and I just have to laugh at myself.
I'm like, oh boy, what a case of main character syndrome.
I'm like, oh boy, what a case of main character syndrome.
I had like all my delusions intact about becoming a published novelist. And so I was like, well, surely now like I know all these people in publishing and that will be easy. No, that is not quite how it worked out.
I had like all my delusions intact about becoming a published novelist. And so I was like, well, surely now like I know all these people in publishing and that will be easy. No, that is not quite how it worked out.
You know, in terms of what was going on with her life at this time, there was a bunch of stuff that I didn't know about that was happening.
You know, in terms of what was going on with her life at this time, there was a bunch of stuff that I didn't know about that was happening.
Certainly, I think my parents were having some bigger concerns because they were sort of actively bailing her out of these situations. And sort of that was kind of my understanding of a lot of this, right? It's like, oh, you know, they're going to have to swoop in again. So I was aware of that and sort of aware of their relationship becoming more difficult.
Certainly, I think my parents were having some bigger concerns because they were sort of actively bailing her out of these situations. And sort of that was kind of my understanding of a lot of this, right? It's like, oh, you know, they're going to have to swoop in again. So I was aware of that and sort of aware of their relationship becoming more difficult.
I was pretty defensive of her with my mom and dad, right? It was just like, oh, you guys are just like so hard on her or whatever. I mean, they may even have tried to sort of like talk to me more about it. And I don't know that I was super like accepting of it because I didn't want that to split up my sister and I.
I was pretty defensive of her with my mom and dad, right? It was just like, oh, you guys are just like so hard on her or whatever. I mean, they may even have tried to sort of like talk to me more about it. And I don't know that I was super like accepting of it because I didn't want that to split up my sister and I.
This is where stuff really took a turn. Again, my sister was working still as a nurse, and she had met this boyfriend who had a son. I think he was five at the time. They seemed like a strange fit. Like he worked at this pawn shop and the fact that he had a kid was like an extra sort of attraction that she could just be an immediate mom. And she seemed to slip into that role really fast.
This is where stuff really took a turn. Again, my sister was working still as a nurse, and she had met this boyfriend who had a son. I think he was five at the time. They seemed like a strange fit. Like he worked at this pawn shop and the fact that he had a kid was like an extra sort of attraction that she could just be an immediate mom. And she seemed to slip into that role really fast.
And so we were sort of like concerned about that situation.
And so we were sort of like concerned about that situation.
She called me to tell me that she was pregnant.
She called me to tell me that she was pregnant.
Someone tells you they're pregnant. It's like, all right, well, we're going to like move past this whatever thing. And at least for me, like, that's what I did. I was like, oh, who cares about that stupid fight we had, you know? And then the story that I heard and that my parents heard was that her boyfriend was going back to Tennessee where he was from because he had to go there for work.
Someone tells you they're pregnant. It's like, all right, well, we're going to like move past this whatever thing. And at least for me, like, that's what I did. I was like, oh, who cares about that stupid fight we had, you know? And then the story that I heard and that my parents heard was that her boyfriend was going back to Tennessee where he was from because he had to go there for work.
And so he was going to be there temporarily, but like he was going to come back and this whole thing.
And so he was going to be there temporarily, but like he was going to come back and this whole thing.
She's pregnant with twins, twin girls. So we're excited. I was thrilled about being an aunt.
She's pregnant with twins, twin girls. So we're excited. I was thrilled about being an aunt.
She, you know, had a belly. She was wearing maternity clothes. We got presents for the babies. I remember getting like children's books from the publisher I was working with. And she had a bunch of baby stuff in her apartment because it was happening.
She, you know, had a belly. She was wearing maternity clothes. We got presents for the babies. I remember getting like children's books from the publisher I was working with. And she had a bunch of baby stuff in her apartment because it was happening.
My very weirdest memory was sitting with her at my aunt's house for Thanksgiving. And she was like, oh my gosh, Andrea, put your hand on my belly. The baby's kicking. And I was like, oh my God, that's so cool. And I felt a baby kick.
My very weirdest memory was sitting with her at my aunt's house for Thanksgiving. And she was like, oh my gosh, Andrea, put your hand on my belly. The baby's kicking. And I was like, oh my God, that's so cool. And I felt a baby kick.
And they said that Megan was in the hospital and that she had gone into labor early and she was about six months along. So, you know, it's scary early. And she said, yeah, my water broke and they took me to the hospital. And she, yeah, was just like really telling us this really dramatic situation.
And they said that Megan was in the hospital and that she had gone into labor early and she was about six months along. So, you know, it's scary early. And she said, yeah, my water broke and they took me to the hospital. And she, yeah, was just like really telling us this really dramatic situation.
And so my parents, you know, started scrambling to get flights back. I had to go back to New York because I was like, you know, some brand new job and like was very junior. So I couldn't take any more time off. I remember talking to her like in the airport. I was just sort of like get on a flight and then called her as soon as I got off and just was for updates, you know.
And so my parents, you know, started scrambling to get flights back. I had to go back to New York because I was like, you know, some brand new job and like was very junior. So I couldn't take any more time off. I remember talking to her like in the airport. I was just sort of like get on a flight and then called her as soon as I got off and just was for updates, you know.
And then she ended up losing the babies.
And then she ended up losing the babies.
And I was heartbroken, like six months in. Just devastating. And I knew how much she wanted to be a mom. And like, yeah, it was just really, really, really sad for her. And then Andrea alleges that... I think it was probably about a week after I got back in New York, my dad called me and said something to the effect of the story of Megan's about these babies is not adding up.
And I was heartbroken, like six months in. Just devastating. And I knew how much she wanted to be a mom. And like, yeah, it was just really, really, really sad for her. And then Andrea alleges that... I think it was probably about a week after I got back in New York, my dad called me and said something to the effect of the story of Megan's about these babies is not adding up.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hannah had just found out that her husband had been having an affair with her best friend. In a 24-hour period, she confronted both of them, asked for a divorce, and launched a novel. It had been one of the longest days of Hannah's life. And then, at 3 a.m., the phone rang. It was her husband, Patrick.
Hannah had just found out that her husband had been having an affair with her best friend. In a 24-hour period, she confronted both of them, asked for a divorce, and launched a novel. It had been one of the longest days of Hannah's life. And then, at 3 a.m., the phone rang. It was her husband, Patrick.
He told Hannah that their marriage could survive this. All the while Trish, the woman he said he loved just hours before, was in the next room. It was clear to Hannah that no matter what promises Patrick made... He was going to continue seeing her again. Hannah told Patrick to give her space. So Patrick stayed in New York to figure things out. And he stayed with Trish.
He told Hannah that their marriage could survive this. All the while Trish, the woman he said he loved just hours before, was in the next room. It was clear to Hannah that no matter what promises Patrick made... He was going to continue seeing her again. Hannah told Patrick to give her space. So Patrick stayed in New York to figure things out. And he stayed with Trish.
Meanwhile, Hannah had to keep going. She needed to keep promoting her book. The next morning, she left for D.C. for another book reading. But now, she was having trouble holding it all together.
Meanwhile, Hannah had to keep going. She needed to keep promoting her book. The next morning, she left for D.C. for another book reading. But now, she was having trouble holding it all together.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
It was a moment of kindness when she needed it the most. After D.C., Hannah finally went back home to Kentucky. And as promised, she saw a divorce attorney right away. Patrick was in denial.
It was a moment of kindness when she needed it the most. After D.C., Hannah finally went back home to Kentucky. And as promised, she saw a divorce attorney right away. Patrick was in denial.
But eventually, Patrick had to come back to Kentucky because... He still had a job at the same school where I was working. It was difficult to fully disentangle their lives. For 10 years, they built their worlds around each other.
But eventually, Patrick had to come back to Kentucky because... He still had a job at the same school where I was working. It was difficult to fully disentangle their lives. For 10 years, they built their worlds around each other.
Even though she was putting one foot in front of the other, she was taking the divorce really hard. Patrick had been her person. She missed him. And she didn't have the luxury of space from him. She still ran into him on campus. So a few months after the divorce was finalized, they started grabbing coffee.
Even though she was putting one foot in front of the other, she was taking the divorce really hard. Patrick had been her person. She missed him. And she didn't have the luxury of space from him. She still ran into him on campus. So a few months after the divorce was finalized, they started grabbing coffee.
It felt a little like those early days, when the two of them were just friends playing Scrabble in coffee shops. They would talk about how things were going in their careers. As months went by, they even began talking about their new relationships. Hannah started dating another professor at their university, and Patrick remained with Trish.
It felt a little like those early days, when the two of them were just friends playing Scrabble in coffee shops. They would talk about how things were going in their careers. As months went by, they even began talking about their new relationships. Hannah started dating another professor at their university, and Patrick remained with Trish.
One time, he invited Hannah to grab drinks with him and Trish.
One time, he invited Hannah to grab drinks with him and Trish.
Looking back, she's still confused as to why she said yes. Because practically no time had passed between their divorce and their friendship. And soon, boundaries began to blur. Patrick started making a lot of requests of Hannah. Once, in the middle of the night, he called her on a drive. He was on his way to see Trish.
Looking back, she's still confused as to why she said yes. Because practically no time had passed between their divorce and their friendship. And soon, boundaries began to blur. Patrick started making a lot of requests of Hannah. Once, in the middle of the night, he called her on a drive. He was on his way to see Trish.
It was an unhealthy friendship, but it did have one rule. Hannah made Patrick promise that if things ever got serious with him and Trish, he would tell her.
It was an unhealthy friendship, but it did have one rule. Hannah made Patrick promise that if things ever got serious with him and Trish, he would tell her.
It felt manipulative, cowardly, and it was hurting her. She was finally ready to cut him off. Throughout their whole separation, Hannah seemed to be doing really well.
It felt manipulative, cowardly, and it was hurting her. She was finally ready to cut him off. Throughout their whole separation, Hannah seemed to be doing really well.
She would smile and agree. But in reality, that couldn't be further from the truth.
She would smile and agree. But in reality, that couldn't be further from the truth.
Hannah's writing also took a hit. She was under contract to write a fourth novel. It was the first time in her career where she couldn't meet her deadlines.
Hannah's writing also took a hit. She was under contract to write a fourth novel. It was the first time in her career where she couldn't meet her deadlines.
Her doctor was the first person to notice that Hannah wasn't doing as well as she said.
Her doctor was the first person to notice that Hannah wasn't doing as well as she said.
She recommended that Hannah see a therapist. And Hannah knew she was right. So for the next year, Hannah threw herself into therapy and had some major breakthroughs. She'd been so isolated as a child that she never learned how to build healthy relationships.
She recommended that Hannah see a therapist. And Hannah knew she was right. So for the next year, Hannah threw herself into therapy and had some major breakthroughs. She'd been so isolated as a child that she never learned how to build healthy relationships.
It had been three years since the divorce, and she was still with that professor at her university. This relationship also helped her heal. He had a young daughter, and together they formed a little family.
It had been three years since the divorce, and she was still with that professor at her university. This relationship also helped her heal. He had a young daughter, and together they formed a little family.
During COVID, Hannah had more time than ever to focus on her writing and to reflect on her divorce. But she wasn't writing her usual fiction. New ideas just weren't coming to her. Instead, she kept revisiting real conversations.
During COVID, Hannah had more time than ever to focus on her writing and to reflect on her divorce. But she wasn't writing her usual fiction. New ideas just weren't coming to her. Instead, she kept revisiting real conversations.
So she started writing it all down. Every conversation she couldn't get out of her head. Memories of Trish from early days of their friendship. Things she'd wish she'd said to Patrick, or that Patrick had said to her. Scenes from the life they'd built and knocked down together.
So she started writing it all down. Every conversation she couldn't get out of her head. Memories of Trish from early days of their friendship. Things she'd wish she'd said to Patrick, or that Patrick had said to her. Scenes from the life they'd built and knocked down together.
She named the book, We Are Too Many, a memoir, kind of. She wanted it to be an honest attempt at capturing a marriage gone wrong. If she was going to write about her divorce and all the real people involved, she wanted to get it right.
She named the book, We Are Too Many, a memoir, kind of. She wanted it to be an honest attempt at capturing a marriage gone wrong. If she was going to write about her divorce and all the real people involved, she wanted to get it right.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is part two of Hannah's story. If you haven't heard part one, you should go back and listen to that first. It was the night before the launch of Hannah's third novel. She was crashing at her friend Hugh's place in New York.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is part two of Hannah's story. If you haven't heard part one, you should go back and listen to that first. It was the night before the launch of Hannah's third novel. She was crashing at her friend Hugh's place in New York.
There's no hero in the story. Every character shares blame, herself included.
There's no hero in the story. Every character shares blame, herself included.
She also made it clear that she was only writing from her perspective. These were, as she writes in her introduction, imperfectly recollected exchanges. She was only telling her version of the truth.
She also made it clear that she was only writing from her perspective. These were, as she writes in her introduction, imperfectly recollected exchanges. She was only telling her version of the truth.
But three years after beginning her memoir, and just as Hannah was about to announce her book to the world, she got an email from her agent
But three years after beginning her memoir, and just as Hannah was about to announce her book to the world, she got an email from her agent
Her husband Patrick had stayed with him the week before. Hannah and Hugh were up late talking, and out of the blue, Hugh made a strange comment. He said that Hannah should be more suspicious of people in her life.
Her husband Patrick had stayed with him the week before. Hannah and Hugh were up late talking, and out of the blue, Hugh made a strange comment. He said that Hannah should be more suspicious of people in her life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hannah was about to announce her fifth book, a memoir about her divorce. Throughout their marriage, Hannah's husband, Patrick, had struggled to get published himself. He'd often relied on Hannah professionally. And now his first book is about the affair.
Hannah was about to announce her fifth book, a memoir about her divorce. Throughout their marriage, Hannah's husband, Patrick, had struggled to get published himself. He'd often relied on Hannah professionally. And now his first book is about the affair.
At first glance, Hannah thought her ex-husband had written a memoir too, a truthful account of what he'd done to blow up their marriage. Confused, she sent a screenshot to a friend.
At first glance, Hannah thought her ex-husband had written a memoir too, a truthful account of what he'd done to blow up their marriage. Confused, she sent a screenshot to a friend.
In her book, Hannah was confronting her role in her marriage and its breakdown. She wrote Patrick as a real person, someone with flaws and strengths. Her memoir was nonfiction. Still, at the end of her book, people would know that this was only her version of events. But he was writing fiction. He was taking their real story and passing it off as made up.
In her book, Hannah was confronting her role in her marriage and its breakdown. She wrote Patrick as a real person, someone with flaws and strengths. Her memoir was nonfiction. Still, at the end of her book, people would know that this was only her version of events. But he was writing fiction. He was taking their real story and passing it off as made up.
Fiction writers often use material from their real life as inspiration. Hannah certainly did, but this felt different. She worried, how would he paint what happened? How would he paint her? She wanted to gather as much information as she could ahead of his novel's release.
Fiction writers often use material from their real life as inspiration. Hannah certainly did, but this felt different. She worried, how would he paint what happened? How would he paint her? She wanted to gather as much information as she could ahead of his novel's release.
The narrator of the story seemed a lot like Hannah's ex-husband. And the story was about him having an affair with his wife's best friend. He gets divorced and remarries. Sound familiar?
The narrator of the story seemed a lot like Hannah's ex-husband. And the story was about him having an affair with his wife's best friend. He gets divorced and remarries. Sound familiar?
There were scenes from their real life, down to the details of his trip to New York and the phone call confrontation about their affair. There were also details that mirrored Hannah's career, the guy Hannah was dating, and even weird details, like how she slept with a can of pepper spray under her mattress, which the real Hannah did during her marriage to Patrick.
There were scenes from their real life, down to the details of his trip to New York and the phone call confrontation about their affair. There were also details that mirrored Hannah's career, the guy Hannah was dating, and even weird details, like how she slept with a can of pepper spray under her mattress, which the real Hannah did during her marriage to Patrick.
In the story, the narrator is in the hospital with his new wife. Their 10-month-old baby is extremely ill. While he's at the hospital, he's thinking about his ex-wife, who's just died.
In the story, the narrator is in the hospital with his new wife. Their 10-month-old baby is extremely ill. While he's at the hospital, he's thinking about his ex-wife, who's just died.
The scene is pretty violent.
The scene is pretty violent.
Hannah was at a loss for words. She was sitting at her kitchen table, reading about her imagined death.
Hannah was at a loss for words. She was sitting at her kitchen table, reading about her imagined death.
As she always did in big moments, she called her sister.
As she always did in big moments, she called her sister.
Hannah could have allowed this revelation to take her to a dark place. It definitely concerned a lot of people in her life.
Hannah could have allowed this revelation to take her to a dark place. It definitely concerned a lot of people in her life.
Her husband Patrick had an affair with Trish, her best friend from grad school, the same woman who set them up in the first place.
Her husband Patrick had an affair with Trish, her best friend from grad school, the same woman who set them up in the first place.
But if this was what he wrote in a short story, what was he going to say in his forthcoming novel? It gave her anxiety.
But if this was what he wrote in a short story, what was he going to say in his forthcoming novel? It gave her anxiety.
Who was she in this book of his? Hannah had taken great care to try to write him truthfully. How would he write her?
Who was she in this book of his? Hannah had taken great care to try to write him truthfully. How would he write her?
Patrick's novel came out two years after the announcement and a year after her memoir was released. She asked a few trusted friends to give it a read.
Patrick's novel came out two years after the announcement and a year after her memoir was released. She asked a few trusted friends to give it a read.
In the first few pages, she recognized the character that was supposed to be her. But it wasn't her at all. Like she said, it was a caricature.
In the first few pages, she recognized the character that was supposed to be her. But it wasn't her at all. Like she said, it was a caricature.
To this day, Patrick insists that his book is entirely fictional.
To this day, Patrick insists that his book is entirely fictional.
And at the same time, there's a clear connection between their two books. When someone searches for Patrick or his books on Amazon, Hannah's book is one of the top results. Hannah doesn't know for sure, but she wonders if that was an intentional move by his team.
And at the same time, there's a clear connection between their two books. When someone searches for Patrick or his books on Amazon, Hannah's book is one of the top results. Hannah doesn't know for sure, but she wonders if that was an intentional move by his team.
Instead of staying angry, Hannah decided to do what she does best, write. And so she flipped the script.
Instead of staying angry, Hannah decided to do what she does best, write. And so she flipped the script.
When Patrick wrote his novel, he reduced Hannah to a two-dimensional character, a cartoon. It was infuriating and humiliating. And she decided to use those emotions to write.
When Patrick wrote his novel, he reduced Hannah to a two-dimensional character, a cartoon. It was infuriating and humiliating. And she decided to use those emotions to write.
Pretty soon, the book took on a life of its own.
Pretty soon, the book took on a life of its own.
The book falls somewhere in between fiction and nonfiction in a genre called autofiction. Hannah actually got the idea to pursue autofiction from her ex-husband.
The book falls somewhere in between fiction and nonfiction in a genre called autofiction. Hannah actually got the idea to pursue autofiction from her ex-husband.
Autofiction is rooted in real people and real events, but it gives writers the freedom to play with reality for the sake of a compelling story.
Autofiction is rooted in real people and real events, but it gives writers the freedom to play with reality for the sake of a compelling story.
Unlike Patrick, she was explicit with her readers about drawing on true events. For example, in her new book, a woman named Hannah is living with her boyfriend and his daughter, just as she does in real life.
Unlike Patrick, she was explicit with her readers about drawing on true events. For example, in her new book, a woman named Hannah is living with her boyfriend and his daughter, just as she does in real life.
Hannah thinks a lot about these ethical questions around shared memories.
Hannah thinks a lot about these ethical questions around shared memories.
Out of all the people he could have cheated with, he chose Trish, Hannah's first true friend, her confidant. But Trish chose Patrick too.
Out of all the people he could have cheated with, he chose Trish, Hannah's first true friend, her confidant. But Trish chose Patrick too.
Today, Hannah's doing much better. She's in recovery from her eating disorder. It's still something she carries with her.
Today, Hannah's doing much better. She's in recovery from her eating disorder. It's still something she carries with her.
In many ways, she now feels grateful for what she went through.
In many ways, she now feels grateful for what she went through.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
On the next episode of Betrayal.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
She thought back to the early days of their friend group, like that night when Trish reminded Hannah that Trish and Patrick were friends first. But Hannah had never worried about Trish and Patrick's dynamic.
She thought back to the early days of their friend group, like that night when Trish reminded Hannah that Trish and Patrick were friends first. But Hannah had never worried about Trish and Patrick's dynamic.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Now Hannah was questioning everything she knew about the two most important people in her life. It was devastating. But sitting in Hugh's apartment, Hannah was numb.
Now Hannah was questioning everything she knew about the two most important people in her life. It was devastating. But sitting in Hugh's apartment, Hannah was numb.
Hannah told her sister everything she knew and then went right into planning mode.
Hannah told her sister everything she knew and then went right into planning mode.
She needed to compartmentalize and be alone. She hung up the phone and walked back down to Hugh's apartment.
She needed to compartmentalize and be alone. She hung up the phone and walked back down to Hugh's apartment.
Tomorrow was a big day. She just needed to get through the night. She went to bed still trying to wrap her head around the news.
Tomorrow was a big day. She just needed to get through the night. She went to bed still trying to wrap her head around the news.
It was 6.05 in the morning, and Trish picked up the phone.
It was 6.05 in the morning, and Trish picked up the phone.
Almost immediately, Trish could sense that something was wrong. She asked her what was going on.
Almost immediately, Trish could sense that something was wrong. She asked her what was going on.
Trish admitted it. She and George weren't really together anymore. So the week before, when Patrick was in town, the two of them slept together.
Trish admitted it. She and George weren't really together anymore. So the week before, when Patrick was in town, the two of them slept together.
With that, Hannah ended the call. By this time, it wasn't even 6.30 in the morning. Hugh left for work, leaving her alone in the apartment. And it was around noon when she got a call from Patrick.
With that, Hannah ended the call. By this time, it wasn't even 6.30 in the morning. Hugh left for work, leaving her alone in the apartment. And it was around noon when she got a call from Patrick.
Hannah was surprisingly calm. After all, she still had her book launch that night. She needed to stay on autopilot. She didn't have time to grieve. After she got off the phone with Patrick, she kept moving.
Hannah was surprisingly calm. After all, she still had her book launch that night. She needed to stay on autopilot. She didn't have time to grieve. After she got off the phone with Patrick, she kept moving.
She tried not to think about Trish and Patrick.
She tried not to think about Trish and Patrick.
Trish wasn't the only one blowing up Hannah's phone.
Trish wasn't the only one blowing up Hannah's phone.
And then she went to her book launch. Despite the day she had... The event went well. She got up on stage and read from her new novel, acting as if nothing was wrong. Afterwards, her agent and editor asked her to go out and celebrate. They had no idea about the affair. So Hannah told them.
And then she went to her book launch. Despite the day she had... The event went well. She got up on stage and read from her new novel, acting as if nothing was wrong. Afterwards, her agent and editor asked her to go out and celebrate. They had no idea about the affair. So Hannah told them.
No one knew what to say to her, mostly because on the outside, she seemed fine, good even. Still, she wanted to be around her people that night. So she went out with Hugh and a couple of her other friends.
No one knew what to say to her, mostly because on the outside, she seemed fine, good even. Still, she wanted to be around her people that night. So she went out with Hugh and a couple of her other friends.
All of the emotions, the sadness, hurt, anger, confusion, Hit it once. The floodgates were finally open. She was still crying at 3 a.m.
All of the emotions, the sadness, hurt, anger, confusion, Hit it once. The floodgates were finally open. She was still crying at 3 a.m.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Angelique was 17 when she found out she was going to have a baby. She had lost a lot of friends, and by the time she was entering her third trimester, she was feeling isolated and alone. But then a friend offered to connect her to someone new, another teenager named Cassandra, who was four months pregnant.
Angelique was 17 when she found out she was going to have a baby. She had lost a lot of friends, and by the time she was entering her third trimester, she was feeling isolated and alone. But then a friend offered to connect her to someone new, another teenager named Cassandra, who was four months pregnant.
Finally, Angelique had her pregnancy buddy, someone who wouldn't judge her. It was the connection she'd been craving. They both needed to set up their baby registry, so they decided to do it together at a baby store.
Finally, Angelique had her pregnancy buddy, someone who wouldn't judge her. It was the connection she'd been craving. They both needed to set up their baby registry, so they decided to do it together at a baby store.
They started talking every day, commiserating.
They started talking every day, commiserating.
They became fast friends. And they had mutual friends. So they would sometimes hang out as one big group. When they all got together, Cassandra was always on her phone.
They became fast friends. And they had mutual friends. So they would sometimes hang out as one big group. When they all got together, Cassandra was always on her phone.
That was one thing they didn't have in common. Angelique was still taking it slow with the father of her baby. But Cassandra was already married to the father of hers.
That was one thing they didn't have in common. Angelique was still taking it slow with the father of her baby. But Cassandra was already married to the father of hers.
Cassandra only talked to Edwin in Spanish. Even though Angelique grew up around it every day, she never learned the language. So when Cassandra was on these calls, no one knew what she was talking about.
Cassandra only talked to Edwin in Spanish. Even though Angelique grew up around it every day, she never learned the language. So when Cassandra was on these calls, no one knew what she was talking about.
It was weird, but people just chalked it up to Cassandra being young, pregnant, and being attached to her husband. A few weeks before Angelique's due date, her family and friends threw her a baby shower.
It was weird, but people just chalked it up to Cassandra being young, pregnant, and being attached to her husband. A few weeks before Angelique's due date, her family and friends threw her a baby shower.
The only person who couldn't be there was Cassandra. She'd been feeling sick that day, but promised to check in when she felt better.
The only person who couldn't be there was Cassandra. She'd been feeling sick that day, but promised to check in when she felt better.
So they made plans for Cassandra to come over a few days later.
So they made plans for Cassandra to come over a few days later.
The bag was full of gifts for Angelique. But instead of opening them, they got distracted just catching up.
The bag was full of gifts for Angelique. But instead of opening them, they got distracted just catching up.
So Angelique tried to give Cassandra some grace, even when it came to the endless calls she made to her husband, Edwin.
So Angelique tried to give Cassandra some grace, even when it came to the endless calls she made to her husband, Edwin.
By this point, it was getting close to dinnertime. Angelique's mom had to take her little brothers to football practice. She offered to bring Angelique and Cassandra along.
By this point, it was getting close to dinnertime. Angelique's mom had to take her little brothers to football practice. She offered to bring Angelique and Cassandra along.
Suddenly, Cassandra seemed on edge, almost paranoid. But then she remembered something.
Suddenly, Cassandra seemed on edge, almost paranoid. But then she remembered something.
Cassandra wanted to surprise Angelique with the gifts.
Cassandra wanted to surprise Angelique with the gifts.
She started dropping presents in her lap one by one.
She started dropping presents in her lap one by one.
But Angelique noticed something off about the gifts.
But Angelique noticed something off about the gifts.
The whole situation started to give her that weird feeling again.
The whole situation started to give her that weird feeling again.
Then Cassandra brought out an even bigger present, an expensive baby carrier.
Then Cassandra brought out an even bigger present, an expensive baby carrier.
Cassandra explained that she'd gotten two of them at her own baby shower and wanted to give one to Angelique. Plus, she said Angelique was special.
Cassandra explained that she'd gotten two of them at her own baby shower and wanted to give one to Angelique. Plus, she said Angelique was special.
Cassandra was on the verge of tears. Angelique almost felt sorry for her.
Cassandra was on the verge of tears. Angelique almost felt sorry for her.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Cassandra had been spoiling Angelique with gift after gift for the baby, but she had one last present for her. It was a gift that involved a light or a projection. You'd have to see it in the dark for the full effect. So they went to Angelique's room, where Cassandra told her to sit on the bed and close her eyes one more time.
Cassandra had been spoiling Angelique with gift after gift for the baby, but she had one last present for her. It was a gift that involved a light or a projection. You'd have to see it in the dark for the full effect. So they went to Angelique's room, where Cassandra told her to sit on the bed and close her eyes one more time.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Angelique Robledo was thrust into the headlines when she was only 17.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Angelique Robledo was thrust into the headlines when she was only 17.
She couldn't tell if this was just anxiety or if it was something more serious.
She couldn't tell if this was just anxiety or if it was something more serious.
So she tried to calm herself down by lighting a candle, a nervous habit of hers.
So she tried to calm herself down by lighting a candle, a nervous habit of hers.
The whole situation was so bizarre. Angelique needed a moment to herself. So she left Cassandra in her room while she went to the kitchen.
The whole situation was so bizarre. Angelique needed a moment to herself. So she left Cassandra in her room while she went to the kitchen.
The smell was so intense that Angelique ran from room to room, checking to see if anything was on fire.
The smell was so intense that Angelique ran from room to room, checking to see if anything was on fire.
Call 911. Help, please. She didn't have time to deal with Cassandra or think at all. She just needed to put the fire out immediately.
Call 911. Help, please. She didn't have time to deal with Cassandra or think at all. She just needed to put the fire out immediately.
Angelique poured on as much water as she could before they had to evacuate.
Angelique poured on as much water as she could before they had to evacuate.
As a teenager, Angelique experienced a horribly traumatic betrayal. And that's the story you're going to hear over the next two episodes. It's taken her 10 years of hindsight, processing, and her own investigation to be able to tell the full story, not just for the headlines or the tabloids, but for herself. Today, Angelique is finally ready to tell her story her way.
As a teenager, Angelique experienced a horribly traumatic betrayal. And that's the story you're going to hear over the next two episodes. It's taken her 10 years of hindsight, processing, and her own investigation to be able to tell the full story, not just for the headlines or the tabloids, but for herself. Today, Angelique is finally ready to tell her story her way.
Right as they got out, Angelique's best friend, who she called in panic, was pulling up to the house.
Right as they got out, Angelique's best friend, who she called in panic, was pulling up to the house.
He and his mom had called 911 and the fire department was on their way.
He and his mom had called 911 and the fire department was on their way.
Angelique was a week away from her due date, but Cassandra was only six months pregnant.
Angelique was a week away from her due date, but Cassandra was only six months pregnant.
Angelique's parents arrived home at the same time as emergency services.
Angelique's parents arrived home at the same time as emergency services.
Firefighters rushed inside while paramedics started attending to Angelique and Cassandra.
Firefighters rushed inside while paramedics started attending to Angelique and Cassandra.
But Cassandra wasn't feeling better. She thought she was in labor. So the paramedics decided to take her to the hospital. Meanwhile, Angelique went inside with her parents to assess the damage. The firefighters had put the fire out, but not before.
But Cassandra wasn't feeling better. She thought she was in labor. So the paramedics decided to take her to the hospital. Meanwhile, Angelique went inside with her parents to assess the damage. The firefighters had put the fire out, but not before.
Everyone wanted to know how the fire started. Angelique thought Cassandra had something to do with it, but she didn't think anyone would believe her.
Everyone wanted to know how the fire started. Angelique thought Cassandra had something to do with it, but she didn't think anyone would believe her.
She explained that she had lit a candle in her bedroom and then went to the kitchen, leaving Cassandra alone in her bedroom.
She explained that she had lit a candle in her bedroom and then went to the kitchen, leaving Cassandra alone in her bedroom.
The authorities retrieved the candle and collected it for evidence. Meanwhile, Angelique tried to explain to her parents that something else had happened that night. She told them about the whole scene before the fire, how Cassandra sat her down in the dark, that she'd been scared for her life.
The authorities retrieved the candle and collected it for evidence. Meanwhile, Angelique tried to explain to her parents that something else had happened that night. She told them about the whole scene before the fire, how Cassandra sat her down in the dark, that she'd been scared for her life.
Then EMS began collecting Cassandra's things, including that big bag she'd brought with her.
Then EMS began collecting Cassandra's things, including that big bag she'd brought with her.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal.
I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Angelique grew up in a large Mexican-American family.
Angelique grew up in a large Mexican-American family.
Their house was always a gathering place for friends and family. Angelique's mom was an interior designer, and she loved being a hostess.
Their house was always a gathering place for friends and family. Angelique's mom was an interior designer, and she loved being a hostess.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
It was a loving home. Angelique was the only girl in a family full of brothers. She was the sensitive one.
It was a loving home. Angelique was the only girl in a family full of brothers. She was the sensitive one.
Compared to her brothers, she was more of a people pleaser. She wanted to fit in and be liked. When Angelique was in middle school, her family moved from California to Arizona. It felt like a big upgrade.
Compared to her brothers, she was more of a people pleaser. She wanted to fit in and be liked. When Angelique was in middle school, her family moved from California to Arizona. It felt like a big upgrade.
But it was a difficult adjustment. She left all of her friends behind and started middle school in a new state. I was the new girl.
But it was a difficult adjustment. She left all of her friends behind and started middle school in a new state. I was the new girl.
So she developed a tough girl persona.
So she developed a tough girl persona.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
And part of that new persona meant experimenting with drugs.
And part of that new persona meant experimenting with drugs.
She asked us not to share details about what was happening. But suffice it to say, it was a difficult time.
She asked us not to share details about what was happening. But suffice it to say, it was a difficult time.
The summer before her senior year, she was invited to a party.
The summer before her senior year, she was invited to a party.
It was at that party that a friend suggested that they try a new drug.
It was at that party that a friend suggested that they try a new drug.
Trying meth wasn't the only thing that happened at the party. There was a guy named Josh there. They'd known each other for years as acquaintances. She thought he was cute.
Trying meth wasn't the only thing that happened at the party. There was a guy named Josh there. They'd known each other for years as acquaintances. She thought he was cute.
She and Josh hooked up. It was casual, a one-time thing. After that party, Angelique's life began revolving around her new addiction.
She and Josh hooked up. It was casual, a one-time thing. After that party, Angelique's life began revolving around her new addiction.
As the weeks went on, Angelique began feeling sick and started to suspect she could be pregnant. So one day, about six weeks after she hooked up with Josh, she bought a pregnancy test.
As the weeks went on, Angelique began feeling sick and started to suspect she could be pregnant. So one day, about six weeks after she hooked up with Josh, she bought a pregnancy test.
Turns out it was positive. She was only 17 and she panicked.
Turns out it was positive. She was only 17 and she panicked.
But she couldn't stay in the bathroom forever.
But she couldn't stay in the bathroom forever.
Her stepbrother was watching the whole scene and he knew Angelique had just used drugs in the bathroom.
Her stepbrother was watching the whole scene and he knew Angelique had just used drugs in the bathroom.
The rest of that day was a blur. Once everyone in the house had gone to bed, Angelique had one thing on her mind.
The rest of that day was a blur. Once everyone in the house had gone to bed, Angelique had one thing on her mind.
At this point, she'd been addicted to meth for six weeks, and it had taken over her life.
At this point, she'd been addicted to meth for six weeks, and it had taken over her life.
Sitting in front of the toilet with a wrench was her rock bottom. She never wanted to go back to that place.
Sitting in front of the toilet with a wrench was her rock bottom. She never wanted to go back to that place.
The next morning, she knew she had to talk to Josh. She told him she was pregnant and he agreed to meet in person.
The next morning, she knew she had to talk to Josh. She told him she was pregnant and he agreed to meet in person.
She decided that this pregnancy was her second chance, her lifeline. She told Josh that she was going to have the baby, whether he wanted to be involved or not. After all, they had only hooked up once. They hardly knew each other.
She decided that this pregnancy was her second chance, her lifeline. She told Josh that she was going to have the baby, whether he wanted to be involved or not. After all, they had only hooked up once. They hardly knew each other.
But Josh wanted to be there for her and for the baby. One of their first dates was a doctor's appointment. There, looking at the ultrasound monitor.
But Josh wanted to be there for her and for the baby. One of their first dates was a doctor's appointment. There, looking at the ultrasound monitor.
This whole experience led her to sobriety, and she's been clean ever since.
This whole experience led her to sobriety, and she's been clean ever since.
But it wasn't easy. She had to take one day at a time.
But it wasn't easy. She had to take one day at a time.
Her old friends started avoiding her.
Her old friends started avoiding her.
Her friends had moved on without her. She says she felt forgotten.
Her friends had moved on without her. She says she felt forgotten.
On top of that, she didn't have any friends who understood what it was like being pregnant.
On top of that, she didn't have any friends who understood what it was like being pregnant.
Her biggest supporter was Josh. But to prepare for the baby, Josh started working overtime, trying to save money.
Her biggest supporter was Josh. But to prepare for the baby, Josh started working overtime, trying to save money.
Seeing Josh was often the highlight of her day. That was until she was introduced to a new friend.
Seeing Josh was often the highlight of her day. That was until she was introduced to a new friend.
But that new friend would change Angelique's life forever. Forever. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
But that new friend would change Angelique's life forever. Forever. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
The moment everything changed. Set the scene. Take us back to that memory. Describe the feelings and thoughts you had in the moment when everything changed for you. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com.
The moment everything changed. Set the scene. Take us back to that memory. Describe the feelings and thoughts you had in the moment when everything changed for you. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal.
I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, we put a call out for your listener essays. We wanted to hear from you about resilience after a devastating betrayal. And we received so many incredible essay submissions. So for this episode, we're going to feature the first of two listener essays that really moved me. This one is written and read by a listener named Melissa.
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, we put a call out for your listener essays. We wanted to hear from you about resilience after a devastating betrayal. And we received so many incredible essay submissions. So for this episode, we're going to feature the first of two listener essays that really moved me. This one is written and read by a listener named Melissa.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
When we come back, our producer talks with Melissa about her writing process. And stay tuned until the end of the episode when we'll be sharing the theme of our next listener essay. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
When we come back, our producer talks with Melissa about her writing process. And stay tuned until the end of the episode when we'll be sharing the theme of our next listener essay. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm going to hand it over to our producer, Mo, who talked with Melissa for this episode.
I'm going to hand it over to our producer, Mo, who talked with Melissa for this episode.
Dev felt like he needed to talk about it, even if he didn't want to. She'd had firsthand experience with veterans and PTSD.
Dev felt like he needed to talk about it, even if he didn't want to. She'd had firsthand experience with veterans and PTSD.
As an 18-year-old, he'd been in the Special Forces in Vietnam. One night, he caught his senior officers using drugs. Fearing he would turn them in, the officers allowed Jeff to be captured. He was held as a prisoner of war, and for months, he was tortured.
As an 18-year-old, he'd been in the Special Forces in Vietnam. One night, he caught his senior officers using drugs. Fearing he would turn them in, the officers allowed Jeff to be captured. He was held as a prisoner of war, and for months, he was tortured.
He recovered physically and was discharged. But psychologically, he was scarred.
He recovered physically and was discharged. But psychologically, he was scarred.
Deb was worried about his mental health, especially because his support system was thin. He was in a new place and wasn't in touch with his biological family. So Deb was happy when his siblings reached out to reconnect. They invited him back to Canada.
Deb was worried about his mental health, especially because his support system was thin. He was in a new place and wasn't in touch with his biological family. So Deb was happy when his siblings reached out to reconnect. They invited him back to Canada.
A few months later, they flew to Alberta to meet his family. They hadn't seen Jeff in decades. They were elated to welcome him home. And Deb never thought she'd get the chance to meet his siblings.
A few months later, they flew to Alberta to meet his family. They hadn't seen Jeff in decades. They were elated to welcome him home. And Deb never thought she'd get the chance to meet his siblings.
It was a good trip. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Deb didn't know it at the time, but everyone there was in on a secret. Everyone except for her. Her husband, Jeff, wasn't who he said he was. In fact, everyone in his family knew Jeff by a different name.
It was a good trip. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Deb didn't know it at the time, but everyone there was in on a secret. Everyone except for her. Her husband, Jeff, wasn't who he said he was. In fact, everyone in his family knew Jeff by a different name.
Deb and her husband went to Canada to reconnect with his estranged family. And to her surprise, the trip was a success. Meeting his family brought the two of them closer. But one day after they returned from their trip, Jeff collapsed on the golf course.
Deb and her husband went to Canada to reconnect with his estranged family. And to her surprise, the trip was a success. Meeting his family brought the two of them closer. But one day after they returned from their trip, Jeff collapsed on the golf course.
Deb met him at their house and forced him to go to the hospital. Jeff had suffered a major heart attack. It would require ongoing care. But Jeff still hadn't nailed down a steady job, so the couple needed help covering his medical expenses. Deb had worked at the VA years ago and insisted it was their best resource.
Deb met him at their house and forced him to go to the hospital. Jeff had suffered a major heart attack. It would require ongoing care. But Jeff still hadn't nailed down a steady job, so the couple needed help covering his medical expenses. Deb had worked at the VA years ago and insisted it was their best resource.
His explanation just didn't add up. Deb even considered hiring someone to look into Jeff's background.
His explanation just didn't add up. Deb even considered hiring someone to look into Jeff's background.
She didn't have the money or the time to hire a PI. Shortly after Jeff's heart attack, he had a stroke. Then his memory began to falter. All the while, he was refusing to go to the VA. It financially strained the family, and Deb was at a loss.
She didn't have the money or the time to hire a PI. Shortly after Jeff's heart attack, he had a stroke. Then his memory began to falter. All the while, he was refusing to go to the VA. It financially strained the family, and Deb was at a loss.
Deb was his primary caretaker, on top of her full-time nursing job. It was overwhelming.
Deb was his primary caretaker, on top of her full-time nursing job. It was overwhelming.
Deb had spent so many years taking care of other people that she neglected herself.
Deb had spent so many years taking care of other people that she neglected herself.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
Deb had just turned 50 and had been with Jeff for a decade, but life with him was becoming harder year after year. At first, he failed to bring in a steady income. Then when he became sick, he refused resources for affordable healthcare. Deb turned to booze for the stress. But one day, after a long night of drinking, she found herself too shaky to put the golf ball on the tee.
Deb had just turned 50 and had been with Jeff for a decade, but life with him was becoming harder year after year. At first, he failed to bring in a steady income. Then when he became sick, he refused resources for affordable healthcare. Deb turned to booze for the stress. But one day, after a long night of drinking, she found herself too shaky to put the golf ball on the tee.
She checked herself into a 30-day rehab.
She checked herself into a 30-day rehab.
Being alone in rehab gave her a lot of clarity. And with that clarity came questions, specifically about Jeff. When she left rehab, she looked at Jeff's behavior with a new set of eyes.
Being alone in rehab gave her a lot of clarity. And with that clarity came questions, specifically about Jeff. When she left rehab, she looked at Jeff's behavior with a new set of eyes.
She wasn't ready to leave the marriage. Her focus was on her new sobriety. But she did come up with a plan. To get some answers out of Jeff, she gave him an assignment.
She wasn't ready to leave the marriage. Her focus was on her new sobriety. But she did come up with a plan. To get some answers out of Jeff, she gave him an assignment.
She thought it would be a good exercise for both of them, and she hoped it could help her understand why he was the way he was.
She thought it would be a good exercise for both of them, and she hoped it could help her understand why he was the way he was.
He needed more care than she could provide at home. So she applied for him to be in a funded outpatient care facility. And he was accepted.
He needed more care than she could provide at home. So she applied for him to be in a funded outpatient care facility. And he was accepted.
Deb Proctor grew up on the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. She recently retired from her role as the senior director of her tribe's domestic violence program. And before that, she spent her entire career as a nurse.
Deb Proctor grew up on the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. She recently retired from her role as the senior director of her tribe's domestic violence program. And before that, she spent her entire career as a nurse.
Deb was at work. She didn't know where he was. With his memory issues, she worried he could have gotten lost. So they called the police.
Deb was at work. She didn't know where he was. With his memory issues, she worried he could have gotten lost. So they called the police.
When Deb got there, Jeff seemed confused about what was happening. The whole situation confirmed that he really needed this facility. His memory must be worse than she thought. But shortly after Jeff's incident at the bank, Deb received another phone call. Only this one would change her life forever.
When Deb got there, Jeff seemed confused about what was happening. The whole situation confirmed that he really needed this facility. His memory must be worse than she thought. But shortly after Jeff's incident at the bank, Deb received another phone call. Only this one would change her life forever.
It was an international call, but Deb had a strange feeling. When she picked up, there was a police officer on the other line. And I was like, what is this about? The officer was Canadian, and he was investigating a cold case from 30 years ago.
It was an international call, but Deb had a strange feeling. When she picked up, there was a police officer on the other line. And I was like, what is this about? The officer was Canadian, and he was investigating a cold case from 30 years ago.
But Deb didn't know a Ron Stan. The officer continued, explaining that Canadian police had been looking for a man named Ron Stan for over 30 years. He disappeared during a fire.
But Deb didn't know a Ron Stan. The officer continued, explaining that Canadian police had been looking for a man named Ron Stan for over 30 years. He disappeared during a fire.
Here's the thing about Ron Stan. He was originally declared dead. But in reality, he'd been on the run ever since that barn fire. Eleven years into her marriage, Deb Proctor got a phone call out of the blue from a Canadian police officer. They were looking for Ron Stan, a Canadian man who'd been missing and later declared dead after an arson fire in 1977.
Here's the thing about Ron Stan. He was originally declared dead. But in reality, he'd been on the run ever since that barn fire. Eleven years into her marriage, Deb Proctor got a phone call out of the blue from a Canadian police officer. They were looking for Ron Stan, a Canadian man who'd been missing and later declared dead after an arson fire in 1977.
And they believed they'd found him in the United States. He was hiding out in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation, using the name Jeff Walton. When the police explained this to Deb... Initially, I thought it was perhaps just a cruel joke.
And they believed they'd found him in the United States. He was hiding out in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation, using the name Jeff Walton. When the police explained this to Deb... Initially, I thought it was perhaps just a cruel joke.
Like a lot of people in the medical profession, she developed a keen sense for when someone is lying.
Like a lot of people in the medical profession, she developed a keen sense for when someone is lying.
She didn't say much on the phone. She just listened, writing down everything the police told her.
She didn't say much on the phone. She just listened, writing down everything the police told her.
Canadian officials wanted to speak to Jeff, or Ron, directly. Deb explained that he was in a care facility during the day because of his memory problems. She confirmed their home address, thanked the officer, and hung up the phone in disbelief.
Canadian officials wanted to speak to Jeff, or Ron, directly. Deb explained that he was in a care facility during the day because of his memory problems. She confirmed their home address, thanked the officer, and hung up the phone in disbelief.
She debated whether this phone call was real, if the person on the phone was even a police officer. A co-worker who was afraid for Deb suggested another possibility.
She debated whether this phone call was real, if the person on the phone was even a police officer. A co-worker who was afraid for Deb suggested another possibility.
So Deb went straight there. She wanted to know if the call she'd received was real or if Jeff could be in witness protection. An investigator took Deb's concerns seriously and started making calls.
So Deb went straight there. She wanted to know if the call she'd received was real or if Jeff could be in witness protection. An investigator took Deb's concerns seriously and started making calls.
She verified that Jeff Walton didn't exist. Her husband of 11 years was a missing person. A man named Ronald Stan, who'd faked his death in an arson fire and had been on the run for 30 years.
She verified that Jeff Walton didn't exist. Her husband of 11 years was a missing person. A man named Ronald Stan, who'd faked his death in an arson fire and had been on the run for 30 years.
When Ronald Stan disappeared from his farm in rural Ontario in 1977, he abandoned his wife and two young sons. In order to escape, he had lit his barn on fire, killing all the animals. His family watched the blaze helpless, fearing that Ron was trapped inside.
When Ronald Stan disappeared from his farm in rural Ontario in 1977, he abandoned his wife and two young sons. In order to escape, he had lit his barn on fire, killing all the animals. His family watched the blaze helpless, fearing that Ron was trapped inside.
Why he'd faked his death, Deb wouldn't find out until much later. In that moment, she just knew she couldn't go home, not to the house she shared with him. He was a criminal, a fraud, a total stranger. So the Cherokee Marshals helped her come up with an immediate plan.
Why he'd faked his death, Deb wouldn't find out until much later. In that moment, she just knew she couldn't go home, not to the house she shared with him. He was a criminal, a fraud, a total stranger. So the Cherokee Marshals helped her come up with an immediate plan.
She made an appointment with a divorce attorney for the following day, and a friend offered to let Deb stay at her place while she figured out her next move.
She made an appointment with a divorce attorney for the following day, and a friend offered to let Deb stay at her place while she figured out her next move.
She met with her sons to break the news. And with all of their support, she called Jeff's son, the one he'd had in America, after he went on the run. After all, he was the only child Deb knew about.
She met with her sons to break the news. And with all of their support, she called Jeff's son, the one he'd had in America, after he went on the run. After all, he was the only child Deb knew about.
He was named after his father, or rather, his father's alias.
He was named after his father, or rather, his father's alias.
The Dawes Roll was a list compiled by the U.S. government in the late 1800s and early 1900s. It named about 100,000 Native Americans who were allotted land.
The Dawes Roll was a list compiled by the U.S. government in the late 1800s and early 1900s. It named about 100,000 Native Americans who were allotted land.
When the authorities finally got a hold of Jeff, they questioned him and asked to see his proof of identity. He admitted to everything. In fact, he seemed amused. He made a joke to police officers, asking what took them so long. Because the arson had happened so long ago, the statute of limitations had expired in Canada and authorities in the US couldn't charge him either.
When the authorities finally got a hold of Jeff, they questioned him and asked to see his proof of identity. He admitted to everything. In fact, he seemed amused. He made a joke to police officers, asking what took them so long. Because the arson had happened so long ago, the statute of limitations had expired in Canada and authorities in the US couldn't charge him either.
The news caught wind of the story, and it was a media frenzy.
The news caught wind of the story, and it was a media frenzy.
Deb's niece drafted a statement to send to the press on her behalf, and Deb kept tabs on the news. That's how she learned Jeff's real-life story, the one he claimed he couldn't remember. A journalist with the Toronto Star had been reporting on it. Through their investigation, they uncovered a possible motivation for why he faked his death.
Deb's niece drafted a statement to send to the press on her behalf, and Deb kept tabs on the news. That's how she learned Jeff's real-life story, the one he claimed he couldn't remember. A journalist with the Toronto Star had been reporting on it. Through their investigation, they uncovered a possible motivation for why he faked his death.
At the time of the arson, Ron was working at a college in Canada. He was having a relationship with a local girl who was much younger. The day he went missing, it seemed this information was about to be revealed. It's not clear how old the girl was, but the threat of being discovered prompted him to go on the run for three decades. Deb also learned how he pulled it off.
At the time of the arson, Ron was working at a college in Canada. He was having a relationship with a local girl who was much younger. The day he went missing, it seemed this information was about to be revealed. It's not clear how old the girl was, but the threat of being discovered prompted him to go on the run for three decades. Deb also learned how he pulled it off.
He did. In fact, he had two other marriages he'd never told Deb about. And after he found a woman with money, he needed papers to validate his new identity.
He did. In fact, he had two other marriages he'd never told Deb about. And after he found a woman with money, he needed papers to validate his new identity.
He used his stolen identity to find work and even collect Social Security benefits.
He used his stolen identity to find work and even collect Social Security benefits.
Growing up, Deb's grandmother was a constant presence and a source of inspiration.
Growing up, Deb's grandmother was a constant presence and a source of inspiration.
When the story broke, Jeff himself spoke to the media about how and why he faked his death. And he seemed to revel in it. He sought that attention. He wanted to be a star. He said he chose the name Jeff because it was the name of his infant son he abandoned in Canada, and the last name Walton was inspired by the TV show The Waltons. It sounded like a classic American last name.
When the story broke, Jeff himself spoke to the media about how and why he faked his death. And he seemed to revel in it. He sought that attention. He wanted to be a star. He said he chose the name Jeff because it was the name of his infant son he abandoned in Canada, and the last name Walton was inspired by the TV show The Waltons. It sounded like a classic American last name.
As for the documents he used to marry Deb, they appeared to be forged.
As for the documents he used to marry Deb, they appeared to be forged.
Like the arson, too much time had passed for him to be charged in the U.S. with identity fraud. And what about his elaborate stories, like being a prisoner of war in Vietnam? It's all made up. That's why he was so resistant to using the VA. He never fought in the Vietnam War. He wasn't even an American citizen. The POW story?
Like the arson, too much time had passed for him to be charged in the U.S. with identity fraud. And what about his elaborate stories, like being a prisoner of war in Vietnam? It's all made up. That's why he was so resistant to using the VA. He never fought in the Vietnam War. He wasn't even an American citizen. The POW story?
Well, he ripped those details straight out of a movie called Platoon, starring Charlie Sheen and his football career at Ohio State with Woody Hayes.
Well, he ripped those details straight out of a movie called Platoon, starring Charlie Sheen and his football career at Ohio State with Woody Hayes.
Deb was left wondering if anything he'd ever told her was true. Today, she doubts if he'd even swung a golf club before she met him. After all his lies were exposed, one of Deb's friends finally came clean about something. Remember the golf trip where Deb's friends iced them out? Well, back then, the group had discovered that... He cheated all day.
Deb was left wondering if anything he'd ever told her was true. Today, she doubts if he'd even swung a golf club before she met him. After all his lies were exposed, one of Deb's friends finally came clean about something. Remember the golf trip where Deb's friends iced them out? Well, back then, the group had discovered that... He cheated all day.
He cheated and basically stole a pot of money from Deb's friends. That's why they were never invited to play with the group again. Even his memory issues were a lie. When he talked to the press after the fact, he seemed to remember every detail just fine. So what was really going on that day when he went missing from the facility and was found at the bank? Deb suspects he was planning an escape.
He cheated and basically stole a pot of money from Deb's friends. That's why they were never invited to play with the group again. Even his memory issues were a lie. When he talked to the press after the fact, he seemed to remember every detail just fine. So what was really going on that day when he went missing from the facility and was found at the bank? Deb suspects he was planning an escape.
She also wonders if he targeted her because she lives in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation.
She also wonders if he targeted her because she lives in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation.
One of the most baffling aspects of his deception is that visit to Canada a few years into their marriage. Back then, the reunion seemed completely normal. But behind the scenes, Jeff had asked all of his family members to use his new name instead of calling him Ron. They said they were so happy to see him again that they obliged.
One of the most baffling aspects of his deception is that visit to Canada a few years into their marriage. Back then, the reunion seemed completely normal. But behind the scenes, Jeff had asked all of his family members to use his new name instead of calling him Ron. They said they were so happy to see him again that they obliged.
There's clearly so much more to his family dynamics than she'll ever know. It still doesn't sit right with her. What makes it okay that you support this kind of deception? In the beginning, she didn't even know how to refer to him, what name to call him by, whether to call him Ron or Jeff.
There's clearly so much more to his family dynamics than she'll ever know. It still doesn't sit right with her. What makes it okay that you support this kind of deception? In the beginning, she didn't even know how to refer to him, what name to call him by, whether to call him Ron or Jeff.
In the weeks after his double life was revealed, Deb was emotionally destroyed. It all happened in her first year of sobriety. Jeff moved back to New Orleans with his son, and Deb was left alone in the house they shared.
In the weeks after his double life was revealed, Deb was emotionally destroyed. It all happened in her first year of sobriety. Jeff moved back to New Orleans with his son, and Deb was left alone in the house they shared.
In that moment, she couldn't get up. It felt like her world had ended.
In that moment, she couldn't get up. It felt like her world had ended.
Her grandmother experienced a lot of violence firsthand. Deb's father did too. As a child, his own father was murdered in front of him.
Her grandmother experienced a lot of violence firsthand. Deb's father did too. As a child, his own father was murdered in front of him.
In the throes of despair, she gained vivid clarity.
In the throes of despair, she gained vivid clarity.
Go on. She got up that day, and she's stayed on her feet ever since.
Go on. She got up that day, and she's stayed on her feet ever since.
She took on a leadership role in her tribe as director of a program providing resources and support to victims of domestic violence.
She took on a leadership role in her tribe as director of a program providing resources and support to victims of domestic violence.
In 2019, she got a call from Jeff's son. Jeff had passed away.
In 2019, she got a call from Jeff's son. Jeff had passed away.
In the last few years, her life has taken an unexpected turn.
In the last few years, her life has taken an unexpected turn.
After all, she did make a commitment to being open-hearted. Her new husband meets her at her level. And he's put in the work, too.
After all, she did make a commitment to being open-hearted. Her new husband meets her at her level. And he's put in the work, too.
She saw the impact of that on her family. There was alcoholism and emotional turmoil. And when she was young, Deb struggled to process it.
She saw the impact of that on her family. There was alcoholism and emotional turmoil. And when she was young, Deb struggled to process it.
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to share your story?
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to share your story?
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
From a young age, she experienced violence and abuse herself.
From a young age, she experienced violence and abuse herself.
Deb believes her father's unresolved trauma led him to become a civil servant.
Deb believes her father's unresolved trauma led him to become a civil servant.
Deb grew up quickly in more ways than one. In fact, on her 16th birthday, her high school boyfriend surprised her.
Deb grew up quickly in more ways than one. In fact, on her 16th birthday, her high school boyfriend surprised her.
But her engagement didn't distract her from prioritizing education. Her father insisted that she earn an advanced degree.
But her engagement didn't distract her from prioritizing education. Her father insisted that she earn an advanced degree.
Before she even had a chance to know herself, she was married and working as a full-time nurse.
Before she even had a chance to know herself, she was married and working as a full-time nurse.
They had two sons together. But a few years into marriage, her husband's behavior became a problem.
They had two sons together. But a few years into marriage, her husband's behavior became a problem.
She eventually left her husband and resolved to end the cycle of violence to make a safe and stable environment for her and her two sons.
She eventually left her husband and resolved to end the cycle of violence to make a safe and stable environment for her and her two sons.
She started going to therapy and joined support groups for families impacted by alcoholism. She was creating a better life for herself and for her sons. When her sons became teenagers, she looked around and realized, I did want a partner in life.
She started going to therapy and joined support groups for families impacted by alcoholism. She was creating a better life for herself and for her sons. When her sons became teenagers, she looked around and realized, I did want a partner in life.
She was 41 and felt ready to explore a new partnership, so she made an online dating profile. This was 1997, back when online dating was a novel concept. Yeah, this ain't Bumble, this ain't, yeah, this is none of that stuff. One man piqued her interest. His name was Jeff Walton.
She was 41 and felt ready to explore a new partnership, so she made an online dating profile. This was 1997, back when online dating was a novel concept. Yeah, this ain't Bumble, this ain't, yeah, this is none of that stuff. One man piqued her interest. His name was Jeff Walton.
Jeff said he wanted to treat his next partner like a queen. Deb wrote him an email. He lived a couple states away in Kentucky. But their conversation flowed easily. And Deb quickly discovered they shared the same interests. They both loved golf. And Jeff wanted to hear more about Deb's Cherokee culture.
Jeff said he wanted to treat his next partner like a queen. Deb wrote him an email. He lived a couple states away in Kentucky. But their conversation flowed easily. And Deb quickly discovered they shared the same interests. They both loved golf. And Jeff wanted to hear more about Deb's Cherokee culture.
As they got closer, she got to know more about his backstory. He was born in Alaska and moved to Canada. He was a dual citizen of Canada and the United States, and he had a complicated relationship with his biological family.
As they got closer, she got to know more about his backstory. He was born in Alaska and moved to Canada. He was a dual citizen of Canada and the United States, and he had a complicated relationship with his biological family.
Deb had seen her share of violence as well. She understood what it was like, so they bonded over their difficult childhoods. Jeff's family was still in Canada, but they'd fallen out of touch. He moved to New Orleans as a young man, and along the way, he picked up the accent.
Deb had seen her share of violence as well. She understood what it was like, so they bonded over their difficult childhoods. Jeff's family was still in Canada, but they'd fallen out of touch. He moved to New Orleans as a young man, and along the way, he picked up the accent.
Jeff's ex-wife and adult son still lived in New Orleans, but after his divorce, he'd taken a job in Kentucky.
Jeff's ex-wife and adult son still lived in New Orleans, but after his divorce, he'd taken a job in Kentucky.
Jeff was the kind of person who'd lived a million lives in one. He just fascinated me.
Jeff was the kind of person who'd lived a million lives in one. He just fascinated me.
After a year of talking, they decided to finally meet each other in person. Jeff flew to Oklahoma. When he arrived at the airport, she was waiting for him with a gift.
After a year of talking, they decided to finally meet each other in person. Jeff flew to Oklahoma. When he arrived at the airport, she was waiting for him with a gift.
And Jeff had come with a surprise of his own.
And Jeff had come with a surprise of his own.
The weekend could not have gone better. Jeff wanted to get to know her world.
The weekend could not have gone better. Jeff wanted to get to know her world.
they started making arrangements for him to move to Oklahoma.
they started making arrangements for him to move to Oklahoma.
They spent the next year planning a small family wedding in the Ozarks. We married on April 23, 2000. It was the anniversary of the day they met in person. Deb's youngest son walked her down the aisle, and Jeff's son, little Jeff, flew in to support his dad. It was a true merging of their lives. I really thought it was meant to be.
They spent the next year planning a small family wedding in the Ozarks. We married on April 23, 2000. It was the anniversary of the day they met in person. Deb's youngest son walked her down the aisle, and Jeff's son, little Jeff, flew in to support his dad. It was a true merging of their lives. I really thought it was meant to be.
They planned their first trip together as newlyweds, a golf trip with Deb's group of friends. Deb had been golfing for her entire life. Every year, she and her friends traveled the country to play. Jeff was eager to join. He'd been an avid golfer when he was younger, but he hadn't played in years.
They planned their first trip together as newlyweds, a golf trip with Deb's group of friends. Deb had been golfing for her entire life. Every year, she and her friends traveled the country to play. Jeff was eager to join. He'd been an avid golfer when he was younger, but he hadn't played in years.
And I was like, well, golly, great job. But Deb's friends were standoffish with Jeff about his win. And one of her friends was quick to point out... A real golfer is not going to leave their clubs behind... It doesn't make sense. Her friends had never acted like this before. She didn't know what happened, and neither did Jeff. But after that, they weren't invited on any more golf trips.
And I was like, well, golly, great job. But Deb's friends were standoffish with Jeff about his win. And one of her friends was quick to point out... A real golfer is not going to leave their clubs behind... It doesn't make sense. Her friends had never acted like this before. She didn't know what happened, and neither did Jeff. But after that, they weren't invited on any more golf trips.
I felt like everybody was mistreating him. A year into their marriage, Jeff was still struggling to find the right job in Oklahoma. One day, when Deb was helping him with an application... Well, I found an old resume.
I felt like everybody was mistreating him. A year into their marriage, Jeff was still struggling to find the right job in Oklahoma. One day, when Deb was helping him with an application... Well, I found an old resume.
He'd never told her he was a veteran, but Deb had a lot of experience with the VA. While getting her advanced nursing degree, she worked on a program at the VA that specifically studied Vietnam veterans with PTSD. I'm like...
He'd never told her he was a veteran, but Deb had a lot of experience with the VA. While getting her advanced nursing degree, she worked on a program at the VA that specifically studied Vietnam veterans with PTSD. I'm like...
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Joel Kern was a respected lieutenant at the Colorado Springs Police Department. But Joel used his badge to fool everyone.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Joel Kern was a respected lieutenant at the Colorado Springs Police Department. But Joel used his badge to fool everyone.
Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes.
Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes.
He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception, on and off the clock. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal starting on May 22nd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception, on and off the clock. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal starting on May 22nd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Sarah's pregnancy was a fresh start for her, a chance to mold a new life in a safe, supportive family. It started with her and Paul.
Sarah's pregnancy was a fresh start for her, a chance to mold a new life in a safe, supportive family. It started with her and Paul.
She reached out to her friends who had young kids, and she started by calling two friends whose parenting styles she admired. Being bedridden for her entire pregnancy meant she had a lot of time on her hands. She browsed group after group until she found one that really resonated. And it was a huge community.
She reached out to her friends who had young kids, and she started by calling two friends whose parenting styles she admired. Being bedridden for her entire pregnancy meant she had a lot of time on her hands. She browsed group after group until she found one that really resonated. And it was a huge community.
She started spending hours every day in the group, reading every post and asking questions of her own.
She started spending hours every day in the group, reading every post and asking questions of her own.
Sarah made real friends through the group, and she noticed a pattern.
Sarah made real friends through the group, and she noticed a pattern.
For Sarah, this was more than just a Facebook group. It was personal. She was estranged from her family. So this group became a real community, supporting her through pregnancy and celebrating with her.
For Sarah, this was more than just a Facebook group. It was personal. She was estranged from her family. So this group became a real community, supporting her through pregnancy and celebrating with her.
There was a hierarchy in the group. Four admins approved every post and enforced the community guidelines.
There was a hierarchy in the group. Four admins approved every post and enforced the community guidelines.
Sarah had a lot in common with one of the admins, who we'll call Becky.
Sarah had a lot in common with one of the admins, who we'll call Becky.
Becky was a successful attorney who'd overcome a great deal of adversity.
Becky was a successful attorney who'd overcome a great deal of adversity.
Becky's toddler had passed away unexpectedly. She was a resource and a guiding light for other parents in the group who experienced the same tragedy. Becky managed this grief while raising six other kids. But the tragedy didn't end there. Her oldest child had recently been the victim of an anti-gay hate crime.
Becky's toddler had passed away unexpectedly. She was a resource and a guiding light for other parents in the group who experienced the same tragedy. Becky managed this grief while raising six other kids. But the tragedy didn't end there. Her oldest child had recently been the victim of an anti-gay hate crime.
awful. Becky posted all the details of the hate crime in the group.
awful. Becky posted all the details of the hate crime in the group.
But despite all this hardship, Becky was thriving in her career and putting her all into raising her six children. She was a super mom.
But despite all this hardship, Becky was thriving in her career and putting her all into raising her six children. She was a super mom.
Becky posted videos of herself giving updates on her family's life. In all the videos, she was alone.
Becky posted videos of herself giving updates on her family's life. In all the videos, she was alone.
She wanted to connect with other parents. Becky's husband and their oldest kids were all on Facebook too. Her whole family was for the most part on Facebook. Becky and her husband were always flirting with each other in the group. It was a lot. It seemed like it was in good fun, but it was uncomfortable to see publicly.
She wanted to connect with other parents. Becky's husband and their oldest kids were all on Facebook too. Her whole family was for the most part on Facebook. Becky and her husband were always flirting with each other in the group. It was a lot. It seemed like it was in good fun, but it was uncomfortable to see publicly.
When Sarah joined the group, she was finishing the process of converting to Judaism. She looked to Becky as a resource and inspiration for raising kids in the Jewish faith. But when Sarah tried to connect over this, Becky wasn't interested.
When Sarah joined the group, she was finishing the process of converting to Judaism. She looked to Becky as a resource and inspiration for raising kids in the Jewish faith. But when Sarah tried to connect over this, Becky wasn't interested.
It wasn't just that they were both Jewish. They were interested in the same things.
It wasn't just that they were both Jewish. They were interested in the same things.
But Becky would post videos of herself showcasing her language learning skills.
But Becky would post videos of herself showcasing her language learning skills.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is the story of an entire community. One group of parents who experienced a shocking deception and overcame it together. We'll hear more from the larger community later. But for the majority of this episode, we're going to tell it through one person's perspective.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is the story of an entire community. One group of parents who experienced a shocking deception and overcame it together. We'll hear more from the larger community later. But for the majority of this episode, we're going to tell it through one person's perspective.
Sarah learned that Becky was also a convert. It's not that common, so she really wanted to bond over that shared experience.
Sarah learned that Becky was also a convert. It's not that common, so she really wanted to bond over that shared experience.
And there was another reason she felt connected to Becky. They both had difficult upbringings. When Becky posted about her childhood, Sarah chimed in. She understood because she'd been through some of the same things.
And there was another reason she felt connected to Becky. They both had difficult upbringings. When Becky posted about her childhood, Sarah chimed in. She understood because she'd been through some of the same things.
Sarah began to worry that maybe she'd said something to offend Becky. And I was like, oh.
Sarah began to worry that maybe she'd said something to offend Becky. And I was like, oh.
Sarah would ask Becky about things like breastfeeding and keeping kosher.
Sarah would ask Becky about things like breastfeeding and keeping kosher.
The interactions with Becky always left her feeling worse than before. She wasn't even a parent yet, but she started to doubt her ability to raise her son in the Jewish faith. I don't know anything.
The interactions with Becky always left her feeling worse than before. She wasn't even a parent yet, but she started to doubt her ability to raise her son in the Jewish faith. I don't know anything.
In the winter of 2020, Sarah's son was born. She had unexpected complications, and the birth didn't go as planned.
In the winter of 2020, Sarah's son was born. She had unexpected complications, and the birth didn't go as planned.
About 2% of women develop postpartum psychosis after they give birth. It can start with obsessive thoughts about the baby's well-being and concerns that something is wrong. But it spirals into hallucinations and delusions. It's a condition that can be really dangerous for both the mother and the baby.
About 2% of women develop postpartum psychosis after they give birth. It can start with obsessive thoughts about the baby's well-being and concerns that something is wrong. But it spirals into hallucinations and delusions. It's a condition that can be really dangerous for both the mother and the baby.
She was scared and she didn't know what was going on. So she reached out to a doctor.
She was scared and she didn't know what was going on. So she reached out to a doctor.
This lasted for two months until she hit a breaking point.
This lasted for two months until she hit a breaking point.
After she left the hospital, she was stable. But the experience was traumatic. So there was still some fear there.
After she left the hospital, she was stable. But the experience was traumatic. So there was still some fear there.
We'll call her Sarah. Sarah is living her best life as an organic farmer in Vermont. She exudes cool. She's covered in tattoos and rocks a shaved head.
We'll call her Sarah. Sarah is living her best life as an organic farmer in Vermont. She exudes cool. She's covered in tattoos and rocks a shaved head.
So she turned to her support system, the parenting group.
So she turned to her support system, the parenting group.
She would know, not me. Sarah didn't just need advice. She needed someone who'd been through this and made it out on the other side to tell her that she was going to be okay, that it wasn't her fault and that she wasn't a bad mom. But Becky did the opposite.
She would know, not me. Sarah didn't just need advice. She needed someone who'd been through this and made it out on the other side to tell her that she was going to be okay, that it wasn't her fault and that she wasn't a bad mom. But Becky did the opposite.
Not being cut out for parenting was Sarah's worst fear. At the time, she was isolated by COVID and her postpartum recovery. So Becky's words cut deep.
Not being cut out for parenting was Sarah's worst fear. At the time, she was isolated by COVID and her postpartum recovery. So Becky's words cut deep.
This was one of the darkest times in Sarah's life. She was suicidal with a newborn. To keep herself grounded, Sarah focused on the positives she did have.
This was one of the darkest times in Sarah's life. She was suicidal with a newborn. To keep herself grounded, Sarah focused on the positives she did have.
A mikvah is a spiritual ceremony, and it can be used to officially anoint someone in the Jewish faith. So Sarah's first mikvah was like a baptism.
A mikvah is a spiritual ceremony, and it can be used to officially anoint someone in the Jewish faith. So Sarah's first mikvah was like a baptism.
She grew up in the Northeast as the oldest child in her family. When she was little, her parents struggled to make ends meet, and her father battled addiction. Sarah remembers a time when her parents were skeptical about organized religion. Even the Christian undertones in cartoons like VeggieTales made her parents uncomfortable.
She grew up in the Northeast as the oldest child in her family. When she was little, her parents struggled to make ends meet, and her father battled addiction. Sarah remembers a time when her parents were skeptical about organized religion. Even the Christian undertones in cartoons like VeggieTales made her parents uncomfortable.
During the postpartum recovery, her faith was everything. She started teaching her son Yiddish and leaning into her identity as a Jewish parent.
During the postpartum recovery, her faith was everything. She started teaching her son Yiddish and leaning into her identity as a Jewish parent.
Slowly, Sarah and her husband learned to parent in a way that felt right to them. The Facebook group was instrumental in helping them get there. As their son got older, Sarah began to have more questions about raising a child in an interfaith marriage.
Slowly, Sarah and her husband learned to parent in a way that felt right to them. The Facebook group was instrumental in helping them get there. As their son got older, Sarah began to have more questions about raising a child in an interfaith marriage.
At the time, Becky had made a post about how she keeps a kosher kitchen.
At the time, Becky had made a post about how she keeps a kosher kitchen.
Sarah was considering keeping kosher for the first time herself. So in the comments section, she asked a follow-up question about setting up a kosher kitchen. I just had a question about separate sides of the kitchen. Because I haven't done it. But strangely, Becky deleted her comment from the post. It was weird.
Sarah was considering keeping kosher for the first time herself. So in the comments section, she asked a follow-up question about setting up a kosher kitchen. I just had a question about separate sides of the kitchen. Because I haven't done it. But strangely, Becky deleted her comment from the post. It was weird.
Pretty soon, Sarah would get an answer to that question. One, she wasn't expecting.
Pretty soon, Sarah would get an answer to that question. One, she wasn't expecting.
But when Sarah was around 10, her parents' religious beliefs began to shift.
But when Sarah was around 10, her parents' religious beliefs began to shift.
It started when her mom was recruited to join a local church.
It started when her mom was recruited to join a local church.
After three years of interacting with Becky, an admin in Sarah's parenting group, the truth was revealed. Becky wasn't who she said she was.
After three years of interacting with Becky, an admin in Sarah's parenting group, the truth was revealed. Becky wasn't who she said she was.
The community was reeling. Sarah went to the Facebook page and Becky was gone.
The community was reeling. Sarah went to the Facebook page and Becky was gone.
200 of the most active group members were all in a text called Therapy Sesh, comparing their notes, trying to understand what was happening.
200 of the most active group members were all in a text called Therapy Sesh, comparing their notes, trying to understand what was happening.
Becky had posted videos of herself, her real self, with her real name. But nearly everything else about her was a lie. She didn't have six kids. She didn't have any. She had never been a parent at all.
Becky had posted videos of herself, her real self, with her real name. But nearly everything else about her was a lie. She didn't have six kids. She didn't have any. She had never been a parent at all.
There was no husband. Becky just made a fake account where she posed as her husband and filled out his profile using stolen pictures from the internet.
There was no husband. Becky just made a fake account where she posed as her husband and filled out his profile using stolen pictures from the internet.
Some people were friends with Becky in real life, and they were blindsided too. People had met her in person while she was pregnant.
Some people were friends with Becky in real life, and they were blindsided too. People had met her in person while she was pregnant.
Becky lied about the death of her two-year-old daughter to a group of parents, some of whom had actually lost kids of their own.
Becky lied about the death of her two-year-old daughter to a group of parents, some of whom had actually lost kids of their own.
Quiverful is a fundamentalist Christian movement focused on having and raising as many children as possible. Her parents seemed happy in their new church, and they became more involved in Sarah's life than ever. I just turned 11 at this time.
Quiverful is a fundamentalist Christian movement focused on having and raising as many children as possible. Her parents seemed happy in their new church, and they became more involved in Sarah's life than ever. I just turned 11 at this time.
It was the extent of her lies that kept people from questioning her.
It was the extent of her lies that kept people from questioning her.
The admins, the people most intimately involved in running the group, were the ones who discovered Becky's fraud. And they needed answers.
The admins, the people most intimately involved in running the group, were the ones who discovered Becky's fraud. And they needed answers.
After Becky's accounts were deleted, the parenting group banded together to find out more about the real Becky.
After Becky's accounts were deleted, the parenting group banded together to find out more about the real Becky.
There was one thing she didn't lie about. She was actually a lawyer, and the kind of lawyer who protected vulnerable people.
There was one thing she didn't lie about. She was actually a lawyer, and the kind of lawyer who protected vulnerable people.
One of the admins gathered evidence and reported Becky's actions to the Bar Association in her home state. But as far as the group knows, nothing has ever come of that report.
One of the admins gathered evidence and reported Becky's actions to the Bar Association in her home state. But as far as the group knows, nothing has ever come of that report.
It was very real for Sarah, especially when she found out she wasn't Jewish at all. For three years, Sarah was repeatedly dismissed and belittled by Becky, told that she didn't know what she was talking about when it came to her faith.
It was very real for Sarah, especially when she found out she wasn't Jewish at all. For three years, Sarah was repeatedly dismissed and belittled by Becky, told that she didn't know what she was talking about when it came to her faith.
And worst of all, when Sarah was going through a mental health crisis, Becky was there, saying she'd been through something similar and telling Sarah that maybe she wasn't cut out to be a parent.
And worst of all, when Sarah was going through a mental health crisis, Becky was there, saying she'd been through something similar and telling Sarah that maybe she wasn't cut out to be a parent.
It was an insidious kind of interaction that undermined Sarah's trust in herself. Becky was like a personification of Sarah's worst fears.
It was an insidious kind of interaction that undermined Sarah's trust in herself. Becky was like a personification of Sarah's worst fears.
This church became her new normal.
This church became her new normal.
But then she started seeing it all differently.
But then she started seeing it all differently.
She's not just talking about parenting. She's talking about persevering after a tough childhood and homelessness, finding identity in a new religion, and surviving a postpartum mental health crisis.
She's not just talking about parenting. She's talking about persevering after a tough childhood and homelessness, finding identity in a new religion, and surviving a postpartum mental health crisis.
One question Sarah still has is that out of all the groups to catfish, why did Becky choose this one?
One question Sarah still has is that out of all the groups to catfish, why did Becky choose this one?
Becky's deception changed the group. But for Sarah, it brought her closer to the other real parents out there who really wanted to connect and support each other. A lot of people did actually just disappear.
Becky's deception changed the group. But for Sarah, it brought her closer to the other real parents out there who really wanted to connect and support each other. A lot of people did actually just disappear.
For an 11-year-old, the potluck desserts, like Jell-O, were enticing.
For an 11-year-old, the potluck desserts, like Jell-O, were enticing.
We first heard about this story through someone else, another mom, who wrote into our email, BetrayalPod at gmail.com. On Betrayal, we share stories about how one person couldn't see the deception right in front of them. But in this case, it was a group of thousands of people, a whole community. So we asked members to send in voice notes about how Becky impacted them. This is what they said.
We first heard about this story through someone else, another mom, who wrote into our email, BetrayalPod at gmail.com. On Betrayal, we share stories about how one person couldn't see the deception right in front of them. But in this case, it was a group of thousands of people, a whole community. So we asked members to send in voice notes about how Becky impacted them. This is what they said.
When the community found out that Becky was a fraud, that deception felt personal.
When the community found out that Becky was a fraud, that deception felt personal.
Sarah doesn't like the framing of looking on the bright side or the silver lining, but she did learn something from all of this. Here's Sarah again.
Sarah doesn't like the framing of looking on the bright side or the silver lining, but she did learn something from all of this. Here's Sarah again.
We are having a little girl. And this time around, she's feeling more confident in herself.
We are having a little girl. And this time around, she's feeling more confident in herself.
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
On the next episode of Betrayal.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Melchiorri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Melchiorri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The standards around purity were very high.
The standards around purity were very high.
Sarah's naturally curious. And that was tough to navigate in this community.
Sarah's naturally curious. And that was tough to navigate in this community.
Her little sister, who was nine, struggled and was deemed a bad kid by church standards.
Her little sister, who was nine, struggled and was deemed a bad kid by church standards.
Some families in their church had as many as 20 children. For the church, big families served a higher purpose.
Some families in their church had as many as 20 children. For the church, big families served a higher purpose.
So they're like, you've got to have babies now. Even though they already had six kids, Sarah's mom felt pressure to grow their family. But she was struggling to have more.
So they're like, you've got to have babies now. Even though they already had six kids, Sarah's mom felt pressure to grow their family. But she was struggling to have more.
The church believed that God blessed you with as many kids as you could handle. So if a family was struggling to have more children, it was because their existing kids were disobedient. In order to get closer to God, Sarah's mom tried to control her kids. And she did it by following the church's teaching.
The church believed that God blessed you with as many kids as you could handle. So if a family was struggling to have more children, it was because their existing kids were disobedient. In order to get closer to God, Sarah's mom tried to control her kids. And she did it by following the church's teaching.
Sarah was only 12 when her mom asked her to use a switch on her newborn sister.
Sarah was only 12 when her mom asked her to use a switch on her newborn sister.
This was a defining moment for Sarah.
This was a defining moment for Sarah.
She started questioning the church, specifically how they parented and the strictly enforced gender roles.
She started questioning the church, specifically how they parented and the strictly enforced gender roles.
When Sarah was 14, she started going to public school. This was actually a form of punishment. But there she met a new friend who opened her eyes to another way of living. And her friend's mom was worried about Sarah's home life.
When Sarah was 14, she started going to public school. This was actually a form of punishment. But there she met a new friend who opened her eyes to another way of living. And her friend's mom was worried about Sarah's home life.
She adored her new foster family, especially her foster mom.
She adored her new foster family, especially her foster mom.
And I was like, oh, cool. Through her foster family, she was welcomed into the Jewish faith. They nurtured her natural curiosity.
And I was like, oh, cool. Through her foster family, she was welcomed into the Jewish faith. They nurtured her natural curiosity.
Sarah was smart and inquisitive about the world, but she'd fallen behind in school.
Sarah was smart and inquisitive about the world, but she'd fallen behind in school.
On her 18th birthday, Sarah dropped out. After that, she decided to leave her foster family's home too.
On her 18th birthday, Sarah dropped out. After that, she decided to leave her foster family's home too.
She didn't leave everything from her old life behind. She still wanted faith in her life somehow. Being exposed to Judaism in her foster family inspired Sarah to officially convert.
She didn't leave everything from her old life behind. She still wanted faith in her life somehow. Being exposed to Judaism in her foster family inspired Sarah to officially convert.
She also decided to start dating. That's when she met Paul. She was swiping on Tinder and his profile made her laugh.
She also decided to start dating. That's when she met Paul. She was swiping on Tinder and his profile made her laugh.
They dated casually for about six months, going on dates when they both had time and money to spare. That was until... the day of COVID lockdown in 2020, I found out I was pregnant. As soon as she saw the pregnancy test, she knew she would keep the baby.
They dated casually for about six months, going on dates when they both had time and money to spare. That was until... the day of COVID lockdown in 2020, I found out I was pregnant. As soon as she saw the pregnancy test, she knew she would keep the baby.
She was prepared to go it alone with or without Paul. After she took a few minutes to process the news, she called him.
She was prepared to go it alone with or without Paul. After she took a few minutes to process the news, she called him.
After that day, Sarah moved in with him. On some level, she felt prepared for parenthood. After all, she'd been taking care of young children her whole life.
After that day, Sarah moved in with him. On some level, she felt prepared for parenthood. After all, she'd been taking care of young children her whole life.
But the environment she'd grown up in wasn't emotionally healthy or nurturing. And she knew one thing for certain. She wasn't going to raise her baby the way she was raised. She would have to find another way. She would need resources.
But the environment she'd grown up in wasn't emotionally healthy or nurturing. And she knew one thing for certain. She wasn't going to raise her baby the way she was raised. She would have to find another way. She would need resources.
A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.
A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.
Yeah, you never can really anticipate how certain things occur to the storyteller when they hear it back. Yeah. We're operating from a place of these are individuals that have gone through a traumatic event and their foundation of trust and reality have been either distorted or destroyed and they're rebuilding.
Yeah, you never can really anticipate how certain things occur to the storyteller when they hear it back. Yeah. We're operating from a place of these are individuals that have gone through a traumatic event and their foundation of trust and reality have been either distorted or destroyed and they're rebuilding.
And so it's really important for us to operate in a safe place of trust and transparency and sharing that is a huge part of it.
And so it's really important for us to operate in a safe place of trust and transparency and sharing that is a huge part of it.
A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways.
A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways.
And I'm Stacey Banik-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives.
And I'm Stacey Banik-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives.
So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
For the two-parters, a lot of them are like, oh, wow, this has a lot of twists and turns. There's a lot going on that we don't feel like we can pack in in under 50 minutes. So let's just approach it like two parts and gives us more freedom.
For the two-parters, a lot of them are like, oh, wow, this has a lot of twists and turns. There's a lot going on that we don't feel like we can pack in in under 50 minutes. So let's just approach it like two parts and gives us more freedom.
But let's talk about Hannah. Sure, yeah. Because sometimes I think it's just as much as like the twists and the turns of the story of like... you know, understanding someone's background, how they met the person that ultimately betrayed them, the betrayal, and then its ending and its aftermath. Sometimes there's like these incredible, beautiful scenes.
But let's talk about Hannah. Sure, yeah. Because sometimes I think it's just as much as like the twists and the turns of the story of like... you know, understanding someone's background, how they met the person that ultimately betrayed them, the betrayal, and then its ending and its aftermath. Sometimes there's like these incredible, beautiful scenes.
Like she talks about being on the train from DC to Philly. And I particularly love the fact that this guy was getting off in Philadelphia and she was like crying and she was hysterical. And this person was like, I'm sure there's somebody that loves you and cares about you. Like, and she goes, people are just the best.
Like she talks about being on the train from DC to Philly. And I particularly love the fact that this guy was getting off in Philadelphia and she was like crying and she was hysterical. And this person was like, I'm sure there's somebody that loves you and cares about you. Like, and she goes, people are just the best.
And it was this moment of like... You know, sometimes if we're cutting a lot of stuff, you're missing moments where you get to just sit with the human experience. I just love that. Yeah.
And it was this moment of like... You know, sometimes if we're cutting a lot of stuff, you're missing moments where you get to just sit with the human experience. I just love that. Yeah.
Listen, I mean, this is how we fund the show. And there's like a formula that we have with iHeart in terms of like ad markers of when, you know, if your episode's X amount of time long, like 40 minutes long, there's ad breaks and they sell the ad space and we're forever grateful because it keeps us in business. So that's why we have ads.
Listen, I mean, this is how we fund the show. And there's like a formula that we have with iHeart in terms of like ad markers of when, you know, if your episode's X amount of time long, like 40 minutes long, there's ad breaks and they sell the ad space and we're forever grateful because it keeps us in business. So that's why we have ads.
It's $3.99 a month. And so if you want an ad-free experience... That's not just betrayal. It's a ton of shows. You know, if that means something to you to help support creators, support producers, that's the way to go. Yeah.
It's $3.99 a month. And so if you want an ad-free experience... That's not just betrayal. It's a ton of shows. You know, if that means something to you to help support creators, support producers, that's the way to go. Yeah.
I have a lot of opinions on this. Great. I mean, I don't judge Tora, but it's fair to just understand the mechanics of it. But one of the things that Tora shared in her episode is she had very specific boundaries around her intimacy and her physical intimacy. And she also shared that... He was really embarrassed by this part of his body. He always wore a sock and he covered it up.
I have a lot of opinions on this. Great. I mean, I don't judge Tora, but it's fair to just understand the mechanics of it. But one of the things that Tora shared in her episode is she had very specific boundaries around her intimacy and her physical intimacy. And she also shared that... He was really embarrassed by this part of his body. He always wore a sock and he covered it up.
And I think just, you know, we talk about this a lot, like perpetrators, they'll find the right person. The people that are understanding and trusting, you know, it works because she honored his boundaries physically. Yeah. You know, when you trust someone, when you're coming from a place of believing someone, it starts there. And he was embarrassed by it. And he wanted to cover it up.
And I think just, you know, we talk about this a lot, like perpetrators, they'll find the right person. The people that are understanding and trusting, you know, it works because she honored his boundaries physically. Yeah. You know, when you trust someone, when you're coming from a place of believing someone, it starts there. And he was embarrassed by it. And he wanted to cover it up.
And she's already coming from a place of respecting intimate boundaries and physical boundaries because she has her own. I can see it. It didn't seem crazy to me. It didn't.
And she's already coming from a place of respecting intimate boundaries and physical boundaries because she has her own. I can see it. It didn't seem crazy to me. It didn't.
Hey, guys, it's Andrea Gunning, and this is our first bonus episode after finishing our season of weekly stories. This year, our team has been working hard behind the scenes to put every weekly episode together.
Hey, guys, it's Andrea Gunning, and this is our first bonus episode after finishing our season of weekly stories. This year, our team has been working hard behind the scenes to put every weekly episode together.
And the we I'm referencing is my amazing production team, our producer, Monique Laborde, our associate producer, Caitlin Golden, and our audio engineers, Matt Dalvecchio and Tanner Robbins. For this special bonus episode, I'm joined by my producer to answer some of your listener questions.
And the we I'm referencing is my amazing production team, our producer, Monique Laborde, our associate producer, Caitlin Golden, and our audio engineers, Matt Dalvecchio and Tanner Robbins. For this special bonus episode, I'm joined by my producer to answer some of your listener questions.
I wish we had these answers. I mean, Danielle's a mom of six that's homeschooling and managing all of those children every day and is just focused on keeping the family afloat and is like just trying to keep her head above water. I don't think she even knows the extent of what he was doing. I genuinely I don't I don't get the sense that she knows the full extent.
I wish we had these answers. I mean, Danielle's a mom of six that's homeschooling and managing all of those children every day and is just focused on keeping the family afloat and is like just trying to keep her head above water. I don't think she even knows the extent of what he was doing. I genuinely I don't I don't get the sense that she knows the full extent.
I mean, before we even started producing season one, my producer for the narrative limited run series, Carrie Hartman and I were reading Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell. We went to go see him speak at the University of Pennsylvania.
I mean, before we even started producing season one, my producer for the narrative limited run series, Carrie Hartman and I were reading Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell. We went to go see him speak at the University of Pennsylvania.
And we were both really interested in this whole concept of default to truth, which is a concept that you're more likely to believe someone is telling you the truth than assuming that they're lying to you. And then especially when it comes to strangers, people are generally bad at detecting when someone's lying to you.
And we were both really interested in this whole concept of default to truth, which is a concept that you're more likely to believe someone is telling you the truth than assuming that they're lying to you. And then especially when it comes to strangers, people are generally bad at detecting when someone's lying to you.
And I think sometimes we often worry about how did you not know then the reality of this person did a bad thing. There are bad people. People like Danielle's husband that are doing bad things. And I think your assumption is my husband isn't capable of kidnapping two elderly people from our church and putting them in a dungeon. Yeah. We're not necessarily wired to do that line of thinking.
And I think sometimes we often worry about how did you not know then the reality of this person did a bad thing. There are bad people. People like Danielle's husband that are doing bad things. And I think your assumption is my husband isn't capable of kidnapping two elderly people from our church and putting them in a dungeon. Yeah. We're not necessarily wired to do that line of thinking.
Even if your husband is out late, it's like maybe worst case scenario, he's blowing off steam in the car and driving around and you're not going to my husband's kidnapping somebody. Like, let's really talk about the reality here. It's just not just more often than not, you're rationalizing.
Even if your husband is out late, it's like maybe worst case scenario, he's blowing off steam in the car and driving around and you're not going to my husband's kidnapping somebody. Like, let's really talk about the reality here. It's just not just more often than not, you're rationalizing.
And you're bringing in your historical information of the person that you think that they are based on a lifetime of experience and just evidence. And then you're making assumptions. And so... It was important for us when we did this show, especially when we started Jen's season, to really explore this because these stories are born out of the scenarios where people didn't see it.
And you're bringing in your historical information of the person that you think that they are based on a lifetime of experience and just evidence. And then you're making assumptions. And so... It was important for us when we did this show, especially when we started Jen's season, to really explore this because these stories are born out of the scenarios where people didn't see it.
People didn't see red flags.
People didn't see red flags.
I'm so excited to jump in. I actually want to start with a question for you. Yeah, go for it. You know, this has been an evolving journey just from the format and how we're approaching our interviews. So I just wanted to ask, what has it been like?
I'm so excited to jump in. I actually want to start with a question for you. Yeah, go for it. You know, this has been an evolving journey just from the format and how we're approaching our interviews. So I just wanted to ask, what has it been like?
I know exactly what you're talking about. During Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, there's a part in her story where she's getting really sick. She's really ill. And the listeners heard it, picked up on it, and noted something very specific. I don't even know if I can mention it here just for legal reasons.
I know exactly what you're talking about. During Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, there's a part in her story where she's getting really sick. She's really ill. And the listeners heard it, picked up on it, and noted something very specific. I don't even know if I can mention it here just for legal reasons.
And then she began noticing other symptoms.
And then she began noticing other symptoms.
And like we said earlier in the episode, we go through a rigorous legal process. And all we could report on was what she was experiencing, what her symptoms were, but we couldn't necessarily name what the audience is basically flirting with because we didn't have any evidence to show. We didn't have medical records. Like, to say that that happened is defamatory.
And like we said earlier in the episode, we go through a rigorous legal process. And all we could report on was what she was experiencing, what her symptoms were, but we couldn't necessarily name what the audience is basically flirting with because we didn't have any evidence to show. We didn't have medical records. Like, to say that that happened is defamatory.
And there are certain things like that, like, we just cannot do. I mean... He was never arrested. Mm-hmm. And so for Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, you know, she thought that something was happening to her. Our audience thought that, but we couldn't specifically name it for legal reasons.
And there are certain things like that, like, we just cannot do. I mean... He was never arrested. Mm-hmm. And so for Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, you know, she thought that something was happening to her. Our audience thought that, but we couldn't specifically name it for legal reasons.
We can't. Mm-hmm.
We can't. Mm-hmm.
A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways.
A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways.
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives.
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives.
So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
She had been dating a guy named James. And James was having issues with... who she was talking to, even at work. And so it was seeming like the walls were kind of closing in, like he was really controlling every aspect of her communication with people. And there was this moment where things really escalated. She took his phone.
She had been dating a guy named James. And James was having issues with... who she was talking to, even at work. And so it was seeming like the walls were kind of closing in, like he was really controlling every aspect of her communication with people. And there was this moment where things really escalated. She took his phone.
She saw things in a hidden folder, very similar to Ashley from season two. And she saw what she would assume is illegal material on the phone that she felt like was CSAM, child sexual abuse material. She found a photo. I don't really want to go into too much detail, but it was disturbing to her and she couldn't get the picture out of her head.
She saw things in a hidden folder, very similar to Ashley from season two. And she saw what she would assume is illegal material on the phone that she felt like was CSAM, child sexual abuse material. She found a photo. I don't really want to go into too much detail, but it was disturbing to her and she couldn't get the picture out of her head.
And she felt like there was something familiar to this photo. And she like woke up in the middle of the night. It's like, I know who these children are. James had friends who had children and it could be their daughter's.
And she felt like there was something familiar to this photo. And she like woke up in the middle of the night. It's like, I know who these children are. James had friends who had children and it could be their daughter's.
There's so much we don't know about the photo, first and foremost. Yeah. This could be a photo he found on social media and cropped, you know, because they were wearing bathing suits. So we don't really know.
There's so much we don't know about the photo, first and foremost. Yeah. This could be a photo he found on social media and cropped, you know, because they were wearing bathing suits. So we don't really know.
What we do know and what we discussed with Chelsea is that when she ultimately went to law enforcement, she reported the photo and let them know, this is who I think could be the family who has children. Mm-hmm. And she left it in their hands. And that was something that we didn't include in the show, which looking back on it, we should have.
What we do know and what we discussed with Chelsea is that when she ultimately went to law enforcement, she reported the photo and let them know, this is who I think could be the family who has children. Mm-hmm. And she left it in their hands. And that was something that we didn't include in the show, which looking back on it, we should have.
Yeah. That would have been that would have helped a lot of people. Yes. When hearing the episode.
Yeah. That would have been that would have helped a lot of people. Yes. When hearing the episode.
And I know that, you know, Chelsea was fearful of retaliation from James. He threatened her with legal action.
And I know that, you know, Chelsea was fearful of retaliation from James. He threatened her with legal action.
And so... I think she felt safest letting law enforcement do what they needed to do. And she did the right thing by reporting it.
And so... I think she felt safest letting law enforcement do what they needed to do. And she did the right thing by reporting it.
Great. It's always so good to see and hear feedback from the listeners, no matter what it looks like. Good, bad, the ugly. Like we really do want to know, you know, especially if there are like gaps in a story where people were asking. We either have an answer or you just taught us something that we didn't think about. So we really appreciate it. Yeah.
Great. It's always so good to see and hear feedback from the listeners, no matter what it looks like. Good, bad, the ugly. Like we really do want to know, you know, especially if there are like gaps in a story where people were asking. We either have an answer or you just taught us something that we didn't think about. So we really appreciate it. Yeah.
I've thought about that feedback from that listener every episode since. Me too. And we can't necessarily editorialize people's life path or where they are when we meet them. Yeah. But what I really thought was fascinating is being careful about the language.
I've thought about that feedback from that listener every episode since. Me too. And we can't necessarily editorialize people's life path or where they are when we meet them. Yeah. But what I really thought was fascinating is being careful about the language.
Using the right language is really important. So I'm very grateful for that person to write in.
Using the right language is really important. So I'm very grateful for that person to write in.
I can't believe we've wrapped the weekly series. I think it's been really successful, and I absolutely love this show. We air season four of Betrayal, the limited run, on May 22nd. Mm-hmm. It's about a woman and her family out of Colorado Springs. You know, we're going to hear that story over eight to 10 weeks.
I can't believe we've wrapped the weekly series. I think it's been really successful, and I absolutely love this show. We air season four of Betrayal, the limited run, on May 22nd. Mm-hmm. It's about a woman and her family out of Colorado Springs. You know, we're going to hear that story over eight to 10 weeks.
And then shortly after that, we'll go back into the weekly series where it's a different story every week or every other week. But in between, so from now through May 22nd, we have a ton of really exciting bonus material that we've been working on. You've been working really hard on, Mo.
And then shortly after that, we'll go back into the weekly series where it's a different story every week or every other week. But in between, so from now through May 22nd, we have a ton of really exciting bonus material that we've been working on. You've been working really hard on, Mo.
We have a great bonus episode with a woman named Dr. Kate Truitt, and she explains the neuroscience of storytelling and how storytelling can be healing after experiencing trauma. We have... listener essays that people have submitted based on our prompt, which is resilience in the face of devastating betrayal. And we have a woman named Andrea Dunlop, her story.
We have a great bonus episode with a woman named Dr. Kate Truitt, and she explains the neuroscience of storytelling and how storytelling can be healing after experiencing trauma. We have... listener essays that people have submitted based on our prompt, which is resilience in the face of devastating betrayal. And we have a woman named Andrea Dunlop, her story.
It's kind of like a regular weekly episode, but a little bit shorter to kind of satiate our listeners. So I'm really excited to see what people think of the content that will be coming out in the next few weeks.
It's kind of like a regular weekly episode, but a little bit shorter to kind of satiate our listeners. So I'm really excited to see what people think of the content that will be coming out in the next few weeks.
I'm so glad everyone got to meet you, though. You're the nuts and bolts of this. And so it's really great for the listeners to hear the people that make this show work.
I'm so glad everyone got to meet you, though. You're the nuts and bolts of this. And so it's really great for the listeners to hear the people that make this show work.
Yeah. So it's completely different workflow for seasons one through three. So Jen's story, Ashley's story, Stacey and Tyler's story. I'm in these individuals' homes. I'm in their towns. I'm with them. Like I just came back from a few weeks ago from Colorado Springs preparing for season four. And I was with her and her kids and her family and her best friends over the course of two weeks.
Yeah. So it's completely different workflow for seasons one through three. So Jen's story, Ashley's story, Stacey and Tyler's story. I'm in these individuals' homes. I'm in their towns. I'm with them. Like I just came back from a few weeks ago from Colorado Springs preparing for season four. And I was with her and her kids and her family and her best friends over the course of two weeks.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.
A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And you just create this bond and this connection and you really understand these individuals' lives. And I don't get that opportunity on the weekly series anymore. We don't have the opportunity of like eight to 10 episodes for us to really take our time. We are really boiling down hours and hours of interview into a linear timeline. And we want to get it right.
And you just create this bond and this connection and you really understand these individuals' lives. And I don't get that opportunity on the weekly series anymore. We don't have the opportunity of like eight to 10 episodes for us to really take our time. We are really boiling down hours and hours of interview into a linear timeline. And we want to get it right.
This is one or two episodes where we have to like really do it in a concise and thoughtful way. And it's just been a really interesting experience, like making sure that we honor everything that's important to the individual.
This is one or two episodes where we have to like really do it in a concise and thoughtful way. And it's just been a really interesting experience, like making sure that we honor everything that's important to the individual.
And we're actively seeing it. Like we're seeing individuals who have participated that are getting together in real time that live across the country from one another that really only know one other person that may have experienced a betrayal like them. Like that is so special and cool.
And we're actively seeing it. Like we're seeing individuals who have participated that are getting together in real time that live across the country from one another that really only know one other person that may have experienced a betrayal like them. Like that is so special and cool.
And we've only been able to really experience that because of the weekly series, which is diverse stories in a short amount of time, you know? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
And we've only been able to really experience that because of the weekly series, which is diverse stories in a short amount of time, you know? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
This is one we talk about a lot. It is. We want to represent individuals who experience betrayal, like all different walks of life, right? Because it's not specific to any gender, race, religion. I don't think that men are being deceived or betrayed less.
This is one we talk about a lot. It is. We want to represent individuals who experience betrayal, like all different walks of life, right? Because it's not specific to any gender, race, religion. I don't think that men are being deceived or betrayed less.
I just think that there's a stigma around that vulnerability and like sharing that may relate more to how men process that trauma and are willing to share that trauma. You know, we find a lot of the stories from our own listeners, like our audience who write in and our primary demographic is women. And so a lot of that's coming from the people in our community.
I just think that there's a stigma around that vulnerability and like sharing that may relate more to how men process that trauma and are willing to share that trauma. You know, we find a lot of the stories from our own listeners, like our audience who write in and our primary demographic is women. And so a lot of that's coming from the people in our community.
So there's a little bit of that going on. I'm interested to hear what hypothesis you have.
So there's a little bit of that going on. I'm interested to hear what hypothesis you have.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is just like my armchair perspective. But shame is a huge deal when it comes to betrayal. Like, how did I not know? How did I not see it coming? I should have known better. I should have this. I should have that. And I didn't. And I put myself into harm's way. And there's a lot of shame and the reckoning that comes with that. And so I think you're dead on. Not everyone comes forward.
This is just like my armchair perspective. But shame is a huge deal when it comes to betrayal. Like, how did I not know? How did I not see it coming? I should have known better. I should have this. I should have that. And I didn't. And I put myself into harm's way. And there's a lot of shame and the reckoning that comes with that. And so I think you're dead on. Not everyone comes forward.
And we'll always have a safe space for men to share their story here. Yeah.
And we'll always have a safe space for men to share their story here. Yeah.
Oh, my gosh. We go through such a rigorous legal process because there's a lot of legal vetting in terms of pulling legal support, what's in the public domain, divorce paperwork, personal records. It gets filtered through our attorney a few times. But before we get to that, you have initial conversations at the very beginning.
Oh, my gosh. We go through such a rigorous legal process because there's a lot of legal vetting in terms of pulling legal support, what's in the public domain, divorce paperwork, personal records. It gets filtered through our attorney a few times. But before we get to that, you have initial conversations at the very beginning.
Do you want to talk about that?
Do you want to talk about that?
Yeah, that's huge.
Yeah, that's huge.
Also, when we're working on an episode, we are running initial like broad stroke background information to the extent that we can. Just to make sure that we can kind of corroborate certain things in people's story, just like time and place, just make sure things are matching. Yeah.
Also, when we're working on an episode, we are running initial like broad stroke background information to the extent that we can. Just to make sure that we can kind of corroborate certain things in people's story, just like time and place, just make sure things are matching. Yeah.
Or as Heather Gay once said, receipts, proof, timeline, screenshots, everything. Yes, exactly. Yeah, maybe this is a good opportunity to talk more about our production process.
Or as Heather Gay once said, receipts, proof, timeline, screenshots, everything. Yes, exactly. Yeah, maybe this is a good opportunity to talk more about our production process.
So you do the hours-long interviews and then you... have a really good understanding from meeting with the storytellers and having the pre-interview of like what's important to them to share and the journey that you want to go on. And so you present me and our associate producer, Caitlin, like a ton of material for us to work with.
So you do the hours-long interviews and then you... have a really good understanding from meeting with the storytellers and having the pre-interview of like what's important to them to share and the journey that you want to go on. And so you present me and our associate producer, Caitlin, like a ton of material for us to work with.
And we talk about each bite that you've taken out of the interview and how do we introduce it? Like how do we write into it? How do we write out of it? And we put it in a linear fashion and then we just write around it.
And we talk about each bite that you've taken out of the interview and how do we introduce it? Like how do we write into it? How do we write out of it? And we put it in a linear fashion and then we just write around it.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Trish was Hannah's first real friend, and their bond only grew stronger during Hannah's second year in grad school.
Trish was Hannah's first real friend, and their bond only grew stronger during Hannah's second year in grad school.
He had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Trish knew what Hannah was going through. She had lost her own dad a couple years earlier.
He had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Trish knew what Hannah was going through. She had lost her own dad a couple years earlier.
Hannah's other grad school friends just didn't get it.
Hannah's other grad school friends just didn't get it.
Trish was dating a guy named George, a poet in the program. The two of them were very plugged into the live music scene in town, so they would often bring Hannah to shows. That's how Hannah met Patrick. He was a musician in a local band.
Trish was dating a guy named George, a poet in the program. The two of them were very plugged into the live music scene in town, so they would often bring Hannah to shows. That's how Hannah met Patrick. He was a musician in a local band.
During this period, Hannah was often traveling home to spend time with her family and visit her stepdad in hospice.
During this period, Hannah was often traveling home to spend time with her family and visit her stepdad in hospice.
But Trish insisted that the two of them should hang out. So she gave Patrick Hannah's number.
But Trish insisted that the two of them should hang out. So she gave Patrick Hannah's number.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Hey, it's Andrea Gunning.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Hey, it's Andrea Gunning.
Like Trish, Patrick was confident, maybe even a little cocky, but they had a real connection.
Like Trish, Patrick was confident, maybe even a little cocky, but they had a real connection.
Their relationship was platonic, even after Patrick broke up with his girlfriend.
Their relationship was platonic, even after Patrick broke up with his girlfriend.
But their dynamics started to shift after Patrick had a major surgery. It meant he needed to spend a lot of time resting at home.
But their dynamics started to shift after Patrick had a major surgery. It meant he needed to spend a lot of time resting at home.
Hannah would even bring Patrick along to check on her mom, who was now living outside of Charlottesville.
Hannah would even bring Patrick along to check on her mom, who was now living outside of Charlottesville.
She started to see a different side of him. As they grew closer, they started going out with Trish and George.
She started to see a different side of him. As they grew closer, they started going out with Trish and George.
The four of them were always out together, talking to strangers and laughing until the bars closed down.
The four of them were always out together, talking to strangers and laughing until the bars closed down.
She was finally living life. And she was channeling these experiences into her writing.
She was finally living life. And she was channeling these experiences into her writing.
She was a good writer. She regularly submitted to literary magazines, and she was getting published.
She was a good writer. She regularly submitted to literary magazines, and she was getting published.
And Patrick actually started to write short stories of his own. He wasn't in school or in their writing program.
And Patrick actually started to write short stories of his own. He wasn't in school or in their writing program.
The two of them would often spend Scrabble games talking about books and story ideas. Hannah also trusted Patrick to read her works in progress.
The two of them would often spend Scrabble games talking about books and story ideas. Hannah also trusted Patrick to read her works in progress.
With these kinds of comments, Hannah started to wonder, was Patrick into her?
With these kinds of comments, Hannah started to wonder, was Patrick into her?
She wasn't going to make the move. She knew Patrick had other women in his life. And it was hard to tell for sure if the feelings were mutual.
She wasn't going to make the move. She knew Patrick had other women in his life. And it was hard to tell for sure if the feelings were mutual.
Our season of weekly stories is coming to an end, but don't worry, we'll be back soon with more episodes. So if you have a story of your own that you'd like to share on the podcast, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we wanna do something new and exciting. this month, we're taking short creative essay submissions from listeners.
Our season of weekly stories is coming to an end, but don't worry, we'll be back soon with more episodes. So if you have a story of your own that you'd like to share on the podcast, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we wanna do something new and exciting. this month, we're taking short creative essay submissions from listeners.
But she didn't call a cab. They kissed and she spent the night.
But she didn't call a cab. They kissed and she spent the night.
They were in love. Still, much of the time they'd spend together was in their group of four.
They were in love. Still, much of the time they'd spend together was in their group of four.
But eventually, the group's lifestyle started to catch up with Hannah.
But eventually, the group's lifestyle started to catch up with Hannah.
She didn't like what heavy drinking did to her, who it made her become. And she certainly didn't like what alcohol did to Trish.
She didn't like what heavy drinking did to her, who it made her become. And she certainly didn't like what alcohol did to Trish.
When Trish got like this, it would set Patrick off.
When Trish got like this, it would set Patrick off.
Nights would often end in fights. And even when they didn't, things like this would happen.
Nights would often end in fights. And even when they didn't, things like this would happen.
Trish wasn't being the supportive, encouraging friend Hannah had first met.
Trish wasn't being the supportive, encouraging friend Hannah had first met.
Instead, it felt like she was going out of her way to cut Hannah down.
Instead, it felt like she was going out of her way to cut Hannah down.
The theme is resilience in the face of a devastating betrayal. We want to hear the story of how you healed scars and all. Here's the catch. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Okay, now on to the episode.
The theme is resilience in the face of a devastating betrayal. We want to hear the story of how you healed scars and all. Here's the catch. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Okay, now on to the episode.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When Hannah started dating Patrick, her relationship with her best friend started to shift. It seemed like Trish always had something to say, and it felt like at times she was undercutting Hannah's relationship with Patrick. After Hannah graduated, a window opened. Her mom offered Hannah and Patrick the chance to live rent-free in her mother's farmhouse outside the city.
When Hannah started dating Patrick, her relationship with her best friend started to shift. It seemed like Trish always had something to say, and it felt like at times she was undercutting Hannah's relationship with Patrick. After Hannah graduated, a window opened. Her mom offered Hannah and Patrick the chance to live rent-free in her mother's farmhouse outside the city.
Moving into the farmhouse allowed Hannah to make writing her priority. She submitted more stories for publication and even began writing her first novel. To her surprise, Patrick wanted to do the same.
Moving into the farmhouse allowed Hannah to make writing her priority. She submitted more stories for publication and even began writing her first novel. To her surprise, Patrick wanted to do the same.
Other times, he leaned on Hannah.
Other times, he leaned on Hannah.
But his success was limited compared to Hannah's. And he struggled with being farther away from town. It took a toll on Patrick.
But his success was limited compared to Hannah's. And he struggled with being farther away from town. It took a toll on Patrick.
Hannah's mom also noticed a change in Patrick. She once called Hannah during her work shift.
Hannah's mom also noticed a change in Patrick. She once called Hannah during her work shift.
Life in the farmhouse wasn't working for Patrick. Hannah was worried. She knew they needed a change. That's when her book sold.
Life in the farmhouse wasn't working for Patrick. Hannah was worried. She knew they needed a change. That's when her book sold.
And the good news didn't stop there. On top of the sale of her book, Hannah was offered a teaching position in Chicago. Plus, Patrick was offered a spot in an MFA program in Boston. He could complete it and then go meet Hannah in Chicago. They decided it would be a great change, a fresh start.
And the good news didn't stop there. On top of the sale of her book, Hannah was offered a teaching position in Chicago. Plus, Patrick was offered a spot in an MFA program in Boston. He could complete it and then go meet Hannah in Chicago. They decided it would be a great change, a fresh start.
Trish and George were also ready for a new beginning. By this point, they were married, and Charlottesville was feeling small. With big changes coming, the group became nostalgic. Trish and George were still Hannah and Patrick's close friends, and no one knew when they'd all be together again.
Trish and George were also ready for a new beginning. By this point, they were married, and Charlottesville was feeling small. With big changes coming, the group became nostalgic. Trish and George were still Hannah and Patrick's close friends, and no one knew when they'd all be together again.
So for their last couple months in Virginia, Hannah and Patrick moved back into town to relive the old days as a group of four.
So for their last couple months in Virginia, Hannah and Patrick moved back into town to relive the old days as a group of four.
Right away, they fell back into their old patterns. Hannah always ended the night feeling hurt or embarrassed. But whenever she asked Patrick if they could cut back on time with Trish and George... He would say, they're part of my past.
Right away, they fell back into their old patterns. Hannah always ended the night feeling hurt or embarrassed. But whenever she asked Patrick if they could cut back on time with Trish and George... He would say, they're part of my past.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Betrayals often come with a loss. On this show, we've heard stories from people who lost the love of their life or their understanding of who that person was. Others have had their children, their home, or their money taken from them.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Betrayals often come with a loss. On this show, we've heard stories from people who lost the love of their life or their understanding of who that person was. Others have had their children, their home, or their money taken from them.
Patrick was in a fragile place, and Hannah knew that Trish and George made him feel like his old self. So instead of demanding that they cut off their friends, she went along with it, at least for the time being.
Patrick was in a fragile place, and Hannah knew that Trish and George made him feel like his old self. So instead of demanding that they cut off their friends, she went along with it, at least for the time being.
It was clear to Hannah that she'd outgrown the group. It was a challenging couple of months. But then it finally came time for Hannah and Patrick to move on. He spent a year in Boston.
It was clear to Hannah that she'd outgrown the group. It was a challenging couple of months. But then it finally came time for Hannah and Patrick to move on. He spent a year in Boston.
Through this big transition, Patrick was there for Hannah.
Through this big transition, Patrick was there for Hannah.
He was her champion. But when it came to his own career, he felt discouraged. He was writing his first book. Unlike Hannah, he had a difficult time getting published. So once again, his mental health took a turn for the worse.
He was her champion. But when it came to his own career, he felt discouraged. He was writing his first book. Unlike Hannah, he had a difficult time getting published. So once again, his mental health took a turn for the worse.
It wasn't an easy time for Hannah either. Her second book wasn't finding a publisher as quickly as her first.
It wasn't an easy time for Hannah either. Her second book wasn't finding a publisher as quickly as her first.
She said yes. Finally, they had something to look forward to. So they started planning the wedding.
She said yes. Finally, they had something to look forward to. So they started planning the wedding.
Of course, Trish and George were there. Even though those last couple months together were rocky for Hannah, they remained the couple's closest friends.
Of course, Trish and George were there. Even though those last couple months together were rocky for Hannah, they remained the couple's closest friends.
The day was everything Hannah hoped it would be.
The day was everything Hannah hoped it would be.
And then... And then her book did find a publisher. And she sold a third book right after that. She was elated. But Patrick wasn't.
And then... And then her book did find a publisher. And she sold a third book right after that. She was elated. But Patrick wasn't.
He turned to Trish and George for support.
He turned to Trish and George for support.
They made more of an effort to see Trish and George with vacations and visits back and forth.
They made more of an effort to see Trish and George with vacations and visits back and forth.
They were always there.
They were always there.
Hannah also helped Patrick secure a teaching job when she got a new role at a university in Kentucky. The move and the job did little to help Patrick. And his dreams of a book deal?
Hannah also helped Patrick secure a teaching job when she got a new role at a university in Kentucky. The move and the job did little to help Patrick. And his dreams of a book deal?
By this point, they'd been together for nearly 10 years. Hannah was accomplishing everything she wanted in life. Meanwhile, her husband was miserable, and she couldn't help but feel that he resented her for her success. He was lost and grasping for any sense of purpose. She didn't know how to help him. Finally, Patrick was given an opportunity.
By this point, they'd been together for nearly 10 years. Hannah was accomplishing everything she wanted in life. Meanwhile, her husband was miserable, and she couldn't help but feel that he resented her for her success. He was lost and grasping for any sense of purpose. She didn't know how to help him. Finally, Patrick was given an opportunity.
We've told stories about people losing their sense of self. But no matter the betrayal, everyone we've talked to has held on to one thing, their story. Even when they lost everything, they still had the truth. But then we heard Hannah Pittard's story.
We've told stories about people losing their sense of self. But no matter the betrayal, everyone we've talked to has held on to one thing, their story. Even when they lost everything, they still had the truth. But then we heard Hannah Pittard's story.
The second summer after they moved to Kentucky, he was offered two prestigious writing residencies.
The second summer after they moved to Kentucky, he was offered two prestigious writing residencies.
It would mean a lot of time apart. But Hannah thought this was good for Patrick and for their relationship. Besides, she'd be traveling a lot that summer, promoting her third book. She told Patrick to go.
It would mean a lot of time apart. But Hannah thought this was good for Patrick and for their relationship. Besides, she'd be traveling a lot that summer, promoting her third book. She told Patrick to go.
Between France and his next residency in the States, Patrick had a week off and he spent it in New York visiting old friends.
Between France and his next residency in the States, Patrick had a week off and he spent it in New York visiting old friends.
And that's what happened. Or so Hannah was told. The week after Patrick went to his second residency, Hannah needed to be in New York for her book launch. She was going to crash with her friend Hugh, just like Patrick had the week before. She got in a day early, and the night before her book launch, she and Hugh stayed up late talking. Randomly, they got on the topic of jealousy.
And that's what happened. Or so Hannah was told. The week after Patrick went to his second residency, Hannah needed to be in New York for her book launch. She was going to crash with her friend Hugh, just like Patrick had the week before. She got in a day early, and the night before her book launch, she and Hugh stayed up late talking. Randomly, they got on the topic of jealousy.
She didn't know where this was coming from. But Hugh seemed serious. Like he had something he needed to say. Like he was trying to tell her something.
She didn't know where this was coming from. But Hugh seemed serious. Like he had something he needed to say. Like he was trying to tell her something.
She knew the question she really wanted to ask. She was just afraid of Hugh's answer.
She knew the question she really wanted to ask. She was just afraid of Hugh's answer.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Today, Hannah is an accomplished author. Stories have always been a big part of who she is. When she was little, Hannah's family lived on a farm outside of Atlanta. There, her imagination would run wild.
Today, Hannah is an accomplished author. Stories have always been a big part of who she is. When she was little, Hannah's family lived on a farm outside of Atlanta. There, her imagination would run wild.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. This is an iHeart Podcast.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. This is an iHeart Podcast.
But it wasn't a wonderful time for everyone. When she was in elementary school, Hannah's parents began a bitter divorce. Hannah was the youngest of three, and at first the siblings all had each other. But eventually, her older siblings went off to boarding school, and Hannah was left at home in the middle of her parents' custody battle.
But it wasn't a wonderful time for everyone. When she was in elementary school, Hannah's parents began a bitter divorce. Hannah was the youngest of three, and at first the siblings all had each other. But eventually, her older siblings went off to boarding school, and Hannah was left at home in the middle of her parents' custody battle.
That's when she started writing stories of her own.
That's when she started writing stories of her own.
Writing felt exciting. It allowed her to get lost in worlds of her own creation. But in her real life, Hannah was lonely. So she asked her parents to send her to boarding school. She thought it would be her chance to start over, to reinvent herself.
Writing felt exciting. It allowed her to get lost in worlds of her own creation. But in her real life, Hannah was lonely. So she asked her parents to send her to boarding school. She thought it would be her chance to start over, to reinvent herself.
Hannah chose Deerfield Academy, a school known for its challenging academics. It was cutthroat, but Hannah hardly noticed.
Hannah chose Deerfield Academy, a school known for its challenging academics. It was cutthroat, but Hannah hardly noticed.
By 10th grade, Hannah developed an eating disorder. And as a note to listeners, we're going to talk about some details of her experience. For Hannah, controlling food was a way for her to feel a false sense of control. It only made the divide between her and her peers grow wider.
By 10th grade, Hannah developed an eating disorder. And as a note to listeners, we're going to talk about some details of her experience. For Hannah, controlling food was a way for her to feel a false sense of control. It only made the divide between her and her peers grow wider.
She kept her head down and focused on her studies, especially her English and creative writing classes.
She kept her head down and focused on her studies, especially her English and creative writing classes.
For college, she went to the University of Chicago and got her degree in English.
For college, she went to the University of Chicago and got her degree in English.
Pursuing a real writing career terrified her, but she dreamed of a master's degree in fiction writing. So she sent in a few half-hearted applications.
Pursuing a real writing career terrified her, but she dreamed of a master's degree in fiction writing. So she sent in a few half-hearted applications.
She spent the next year honing her craft as best she could.
She spent the next year honing her craft as best she could.
She packed up her life and headed to Charlottesville. And she made a promise to herself, the same one she'd made before boarding school.
She packed up her life and headed to Charlottesville. And she made a promise to herself, the same one she'd made before boarding school.
From her first day in the program, that vision felt within reach.
From her first day in the program, that vision felt within reach.
Trish was the second year in the program.
Trish was the second year in the program.
Trish was everything Hannah was not. And Hannah wanted to make a good first impression.
Trish was everything Hannah was not. And Hannah wanted to make a good first impression.
So when she introduced herself to the group, she turned bright red. And Trish noticed.
So when she introduced herself to the group, she turned bright red. And Trish noticed.
That day was a new beginning for Hannah. She was starting to have the social life she'd always wanted.
That day was a new beginning for Hannah. She was starting to have the social life she'd always wanted.
And at all these events, Hannah would watch Trish command the room.
And at all these events, Hannah would watch Trish command the room.
Trish started calling Hannah to hang out, and her confidence began to rub off on Hannah. For so long, Hannah had been trying to make herself small, emotionally and physically. For instance, she would only wear sports bras.
Trish started calling Hannah to hang out, and her confidence began to rub off on Hannah. For so long, Hannah had been trying to make herself small, emotionally and physically. For instance, she would only wear sports bras.
But Trish inspired Hannah to make a change.
But Trish inspired Hannah to make a change.
Trish liked to go out. It was something Hannah hadn't really done before. But pretty quickly, she realized she liked it too.
Trish liked to go out. It was something Hannah hadn't really done before. But pretty quickly, she realized she liked it too.
Over time, Hannah began distancing herself from the other first years, and she was spending more and more nights with Trish.
Over time, Hannah began distancing herself from the other first years, and she was spending more and more nights with Trish.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
We're talking with Dr. Kate Truitt, who's an applied neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and educator. Dr. Truitt says that when it comes to identifying the stories your brain has written about trauma, you can take the first step on your own.
We're talking with Dr. Kate Truitt, who's an applied neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and educator. Dr. Truitt says that when it comes to identifying the stories your brain has written about trauma, you can take the first step on your own.
But working through that fear and vulnerability is part of the process. Dr. Truitt helps her clients develop tools for navigating the difficult feelings that come up when they're telling their story.
But working through that fear and vulnerability is part of the process. Dr. Truitt helps her clients develop tools for navigating the difficult feelings that come up when they're telling their story.
Mindful touch is a meditation practice of clearing your mind, bringing your awareness to your body, and gently running your hands together or running your hands over your arms like a hug. It's a way to ground yourself and help calm down your amygdala. It seems simple, but this practice can build a sense of safety around traumatic memories.
Mindful touch is a meditation practice of clearing your mind, bringing your awareness to your body, and gently running your hands together or running your hands over your arms like a hug. It's a way to ground yourself and help calm down your amygdala. It seems simple, but this practice can build a sense of safety around traumatic memories.
Another important step in this process is detaching from labels.
Another important step in this process is detaching from labels.
Certain labels have more power than others, like the label of victim. It's a word that comes up a lot in our interviews. It's a polarizing and emotionally charged label. Some people adopt it. Others reject it.
Certain labels have more power than others, like the label of victim. It's a word that comes up a lot in our interviews. It's a polarizing and emotionally charged label. Some people adopt it. Others reject it.
Still, having a word for that experience and the changes it caused can be a way to acknowledge that it happened.
Still, having a word for that experience and the changes it caused can be a way to acknowledge that it happened.
A major barrier to building resilience and empowerment is shame. Dr. Truitt explains where shame comes from and why we hold on to it so tightly.
A major barrier to building resilience and empowerment is shame. Dr. Truitt explains where shame comes from and why we hold on to it so tightly.
Shame is baked into our brains' normal functioning, and it's something we have to learn to work with.
Shame is baked into our brains' normal functioning, and it's something we have to learn to work with.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
As we often hear on our show, healing from trauma isn't linear. And healing doesn't always bring back the person you were before. That's one of the hardest parts. So we asked Dr. Truitt what healing looks like when she's working with clients.
As we often hear on our show, healing from trauma isn't linear. And healing doesn't always bring back the person you were before. That's one of the hardest parts. So we asked Dr. Truitt what healing looks like when she's working with clients.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode of Betrayal. Our team loves to dive into the science and psychology behind betrayal and the trauma it can cause. We often talk about the power of storytelling as a tool for healing. So we got curious about how the science of storytelling really functions in trauma recovery.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode of Betrayal. Our team loves to dive into the science and psychology behind betrayal and the trauma it can cause. We often talk about the power of storytelling as a tool for healing. So we got curious about how the science of storytelling really functions in trauma recovery.
Instead of making happiness a marker of healing, a more realistic approach is to build self-compassion.
Instead of making happiness a marker of healing, a more realistic approach is to build self-compassion.
This is the work she's actively doing with her clients. But Dr. Truitt acknowledges that therapy isn't always accessible. That's why she's committed to online education and sharing free resources.
This is the work she's actively doing with her clients. But Dr. Truitt acknowledges that therapy isn't always accessible. That's why she's committed to online education and sharing free resources.
That's how we found applied neuroscientist and clinical psychologist, Dr. Kate Truitt.
That's how we found applied neuroscientist and clinical psychologist, Dr. Kate Truitt.
Her most recent book is a memoir, where she uses her own story as a lesson in trauma recovery.
Her most recent book is a memoir, where she uses her own story as a lesson in trauma recovery.
In writing her memoir, she experienced firsthand how healing it can be to tell your story. And it's a story she hopes other people can learn from.
In writing her memoir, she experienced firsthand how healing it can be to tell your story. And it's a story she hopes other people can learn from.
Thank you for listening. And a special thanks to Dr. Kate Truitt for sharing her expertise with us. In the spirit of storytelling for trauma healing, we're going to spend the next two weeks sharing listener essay submissions. The theme was resilience and recovery after a devastating betrayal. We received so many incredible submissions and we're excited to share them with you.
Thank you for listening. And a special thanks to Dr. Kate Truitt for sharing her expertise with us. In the spirit of storytelling for trauma healing, we're going to spend the next two weeks sharing listener essay submissions. The theme was resilience and recovery after a devastating betrayal. We received so many incredible submissions and we're excited to share them with you.
So stay tuned and we'll be back next week. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
So stay tuned and we'll be back next week. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Dr. Truitt also has her own clinical practice in Los Angeles, where she sees clients who've experienced trauma.
Dr. Truitt also has her own clinical practice in Los Angeles, where she sees clients who've experienced trauma.
She's very open about her own lived experiences and how they impact her work.
She's very open about her own lived experiences and how they impact her work.
I wanted to start by asking Dr. Truitt what trauma really is in a clinical sense. For instance, what makes something a traumatic experience to our brains?
I wanted to start by asking Dr. Truitt what trauma really is in a clinical sense. For instance, what makes something a traumatic experience to our brains?
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
There's one part of our brain responsible for processing safety. It's the amygdala. Dr. Truitt actually personifies the amygdala. She affectionately calls her Amy. By making the amygdala into a character, that can help us see its reaction as separate from who we fundamentally are.
There's one part of our brain responsible for processing safety. It's the amygdala. Dr. Truitt actually personifies the amygdala. She affectionately calls her Amy. By making the amygdala into a character, that can help us see its reaction as separate from who we fundamentally are.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Sometimes the amygdala struggles to determine the size of a risk, and it can be activated in all kinds of situations.
Sometimes the amygdala struggles to determine the size of a risk, and it can be activated in all kinds of situations.
What the amygdala considers to be a threat changes all the time based on the things we experience.
What the amygdala considers to be a threat changes all the time based on the things we experience.
Whether we're aware of it or not, our amygdala is always reacting to experiences. Dr. Truitt says that traumas that occur in early childhood, even ones we're too young to remember, can still have a strong impact on the amygdala's sense of safety.
Whether we're aware of it or not, our amygdala is always reacting to experiences. Dr. Truitt says that traumas that occur in early childhood, even ones we're too young to remember, can still have a strong impact on the amygdala's sense of safety.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Regardless of the degrees of trauma we experience, it always takes a toll. Trauma exists on a spectrum, and so do the effects.
Regardless of the degrees of trauma we experience, it always takes a toll. Trauma exists on a spectrum, and so do the effects.
It's fascinating to hear her unpack how one event in our lives can impact our brain wiring and how it can also put our body in trauma mode. So without proper intervention, we could stay in that state for the rest of our lives. It can keep us from achieving our goals or experiencing joy.
It's fascinating to hear her unpack how one event in our lives can impact our brain wiring and how it can also put our body in trauma mode. So without proper intervention, we could stay in that state for the rest of our lives. It can keep us from achieving our goals or experiencing joy.
And a lot of Dr. Truitt's work is teaching people how. After we have a traumatic experience, our brain starts to develop a story, a narrative to explain what happened and how it happened. We can become very attached to that story. For example, if your partner has an affair, your brain's initial story might be, I'm not good enough. But here's the thing.
And a lot of Dr. Truitt's work is teaching people how. After we have a traumatic experience, our brain starts to develop a story, a narrative to explain what happened and how it happened. We can become very attached to that story. For example, if your partner has an affair, your brain's initial story might be, I'm not good enough. But here's the thing.
Oftentimes, our brain writes the story while we're in trauma mode, and the first draft is full of self-blame.
Oftentimes, our brain writes the story while we're in trauma mode, and the first draft is full of self-blame.
And when the brain is stuck in that survival mode, seeing through trauma glasses, this is what it can feel like.
And when the brain is stuck in that survival mode, seeing through trauma glasses, this is what it can feel like.
Part of Dr. Truitt's approach is understanding the amygdala's response and even empathizing with it, because its biological intention is to keep us safe.
Part of Dr. Truitt's approach is understanding the amygdala's response and even empathizing with it, because its biological intention is to keep us safe.
We are wired to make stories, but we're also allowed to revise the story our brain writes.
We are wired to make stories, but we're also allowed to revise the story our brain writes.
After the break, Dr. Truitt delves into specifics about storytelling as a tool for trauma recovery.
After the break, Dr. Truitt delves into specifics about storytelling as a tool for trauma recovery.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Dawn had forgiven her fiancé Wes for a number of things. He told her he was separated from his wife, when in reality, he was still very much with her. He told Dawn he worked as a salesman at a steel company, which she found out was also a lie. Finally, with Wes coming clean, the couple could enter a new era, a sort of golden era. And it started with a wedding.
Dawn had forgiven her fiancé Wes for a number of things. He told her he was separated from his wife, when in reality, he was still very much with her. He told Dawn he worked as a salesman at a steel company, which she found out was also a lie. Finally, with Wes coming clean, the couple could enter a new era, a sort of golden era. And it started with a wedding.
The new job Wes scored, which this time was a real job, proved to be a natural fit for him. He was managing investor money at an oil and gas company. And he was great at it.
The new job Wes scored, which this time was a real job, proved to be a natural fit for him. He was managing investor money at an oil and gas company. And he was great at it.
They moved out of the small town where his ex-wife and family lived and settled in a Fort Worth suburb to be near his job.
They moved out of the small town where his ex-wife and family lived and settled in a Fort Worth suburb to be near his job.
They were officially somebodies. And it was around this time when she entered this life of luxury that Dawn made a new friend. We'll call her Sandy.
They were officially somebodies. And it was around this time when she entered this life of luxury that Dawn made a new friend. We'll call her Sandy.
As their personal life blossomed, so did Wes's career. The oil company was growing a lot and Wes had made friends with the right people there. People who wanted to take him all the way to the top of the company. In fact, they gave him the opportunity to buy the company. He did.
As their personal life blossomed, so did Wes's career. The oil company was growing a lot and Wes had made friends with the right people there. People who wanted to take him all the way to the top of the company. In fact, they gave him the opportunity to buy the company. He did.
The sale of the company happened fast and under kind of weird circumstances. But Wes didn't seem concerned about it. And the money was good.
The sale of the company happened fast and under kind of weird circumstances. But Wes didn't seem concerned about it. And the money was good.
And the couple got to spend a lot of time doing something they both loved, partying.
And the couple got to spend a lot of time doing something they both loved, partying.
It was a whirlwind, great Gatsby style, but set in the 2006 Texas suburbs. Dawn and Wes were still in their 30s, and they made it big. She knew her husband was a charmer, but there were two sides to that coin. On one side, he was a natural leader and salesman, but on the other side, Wes was still the same old ladies' man. Early on, Dawn found evidence that Wes might be cheating on her.
It was a whirlwind, great Gatsby style, but set in the 2006 Texas suburbs. Dawn and Wes were still in their 30s, and they made it big. She knew her husband was a charmer, but there were two sides to that coin. On one side, he was a natural leader and salesman, but on the other side, Wes was still the same old ladies' man. Early on, Dawn found evidence that Wes might be cheating on her.
Instead of confronting him, she decided to take a different approach.
Instead of confronting him, she decided to take a different approach.
I had to know a little more about the Dallas swingers scene.
I had to know a little more about the Dallas swingers scene.
Dawn says she was, quote, in the lifestyle for about a year and a half until the party started feeling off to her. It stopped being fun. but Wes pressured her to keep going with him. Those nights would always end in drunken blackouts, fights.
Dawn says she was, quote, in the lifestyle for about a year and a half until the party started feeling off to her. It stopped being fun. but Wes pressured her to keep going with him. Those nights would always end in drunken blackouts, fights.
They stopped going to swingers clubs together and for a while, everything seemed normal. That was until years later when Wes began spending more and more time at work. Don was becoming suspicious about his work travel and the long hours he was putting in. Plus, he became guarded with his phone. Whenever Don tried to confront him, they got into an argument.
They stopped going to swingers clubs together and for a while, everything seemed normal. That was until years later when Wes began spending more and more time at work. Don was becoming suspicious about his work travel and the long hours he was putting in. Plus, he became guarded with his phone. Whenever Don tried to confront him, they got into an argument.
It was a lie that gave him a reason to leave her. And he took it. Immediately.
It was a lie that gave him a reason to leave her. And he took it. Immediately.
Dawn couldn't understand why he was so eager to walk out on her. So she turned to her friend, Sandy. And Sandy had recently seen Wes. And she's like, he took his ring off.
Dawn couldn't understand why he was so eager to walk out on her. So she turned to her friend, Sandy. And Sandy had recently seen Wes. And she's like, he took his ring off.
Soon after, Wes went on a work trip. Dawn got a weird feeling about it. Call it intuition. So she decided to do a little investigating. I found out where he was staying. She called the hotel front desk and she found out that there were two people staying in Wes's room. The other person was Sandy, Dawn's friend.
Soon after, Wes went on a work trip. Dawn got a weird feeling about it. Call it intuition. So she decided to do a little investigating. I found out where he was staying. She called the hotel front desk and she found out that there were two people staying in Wes's room. The other person was Sandy, Dawn's friend.
She suddenly understood why Wes had been so quick to walk out of their marriage and why Sandy was feeding her information about Wes's infidelity, even advising her that the relationship was too much. She was supposed to be my brand, but she's screwing my husband. When Wes came back from that business trip, his affair with Sandy was outed. It was a big scandal.
She suddenly understood why Wes had been so quick to walk out of their marriage and why Sandy was feeding her information about Wes's infidelity, even advising her that the relationship was too much. She was supposed to be my brand, but she's screwing my husband. When Wes came back from that business trip, his affair with Sandy was outed. It was a big scandal.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. As a listener note, this episode contains references to suicide and suicidal ideation. Please take care while listening. About a year ago, we heard from a fast-talking Southern woman named Dawn. I'm from East Texas, born and raised. Dawn is a firecracker.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. As a listener note, this episode contains references to suicide and suicidal ideation. Please take care while listening. About a year ago, we heard from a fast-talking Southern woman named Dawn. I'm from East Texas, born and raised. Dawn is a firecracker.
It was humiliating, infuriating, but it was nothing compared to what came next.
It was humiliating, infuriating, but it was nothing compared to what came next.
She didn't even know what day the divorce hearing was set for.
She didn't even know what day the divorce hearing was set for.
She didn't just hire any attorney. She hired the mayor of their town.
She didn't just hire any attorney. She hired the mayor of their town.
Speaking your mind just runs in Dawn's family. She gets it from her mom.
Speaking your mind just runs in Dawn's family. She gets it from her mom.
Dawn's story of betrayal is a little different. She's the first to say that her story starts when she committed a betrayal of her own.
Dawn's story of betrayal is a little different. She's the first to say that her story starts when she committed a betrayal of her own.
Dawn discovered her husband Wes had been cheating on her with her close friend. And in the divorce that followed, he filed a restraining order to keep Dawn out of his multi-million dollar business. He crossed her one too many times. And now, she needed to know the extent of his wrongdoing.
Dawn discovered her husband Wes had been cheating on her with her close friend. And in the divorce that followed, he filed a restraining order to keep Dawn out of his multi-million dollar business. He crossed her one too many times. And now, she needed to know the extent of his wrongdoing.
She saw posts from people who'd invested in Wes's oil company saying they'd been promised returns, but those returns never came. Dawn was also finding records of properties in her husband's name, properties she didn't know anything about, that all led back to Wes.
She saw posts from people who'd invested in Wes's oil company saying they'd been promised returns, but those returns never came. Dawn was also finding records of properties in her husband's name, properties she didn't know anything about, that all led back to Wes.
Her friend couldn't tell her about the investigation, but someone else was about to.
Her friend couldn't tell her about the investigation, but someone else was about to.
She might not be involved with the company, but she did know Wes was always up to something. And if she could help expose more of his lies, she was in.
She might not be involved with the company, but she did know Wes was always up to something. And if she could help expose more of his lies, she was in.
In the early 2000s, Dawn was married with two young daughters. She described her first husband as a nice guy, maybe the first guy that had ever really been good to her. But she wasn't in love. One night, Dawn decided to go out with her sister.
In the early 2000s, Dawn was married with two young daughters. She described her first husband as a nice guy, maybe the first guy that had ever really been good to her. But she wasn't in love. One night, Dawn decided to go out with her sister.
And she learned he had misappropriated $2 million. That $2 million was just the beginning. In total, West's company illegally raised $13 million through what's known as a boiler room scheme. Salespeople like West duped hundreds of everyday people to invest their savings in the company's oil drilling projects.
And she learned he had misappropriated $2 million. That $2 million was just the beginning. In total, West's company illegally raised $13 million through what's known as a boiler room scheme. Salespeople like West duped hundreds of everyday people to invest their savings in the company's oil drilling projects.
But they were doing it using fake data, falsified information about the company's profits, and empty promises about their expected returns. And a lot of those investor funds weren't being used to expand the company's profits.
But they were doing it using fake data, falsified information about the company's profits, and empty promises about their expected returns. And a lot of those investor funds weren't being used to expand the company's profits.
And where did all that money go? Well, Wes used it to fund their family's lavish lifestyle.
And where did all that money go? Well, Wes used it to fund their family's lavish lifestyle.
Money stolen from regular people who'd invested in Wes's oil and gas company, who were told they'd see massive returns.
Money stolen from regular people who'd invested in Wes's oil and gas company, who were told they'd see massive returns.
She was scared for her own safety. But more so, she was devastated when she heard from the victims of Wes's fraud.
She was scared for her own safety. But more so, she was devastated when she heard from the victims of Wes's fraud.
Even though Dawn wasn't responsible for Wes's crimes, she was still financially entangled with him. His LLC that he was laundering money through...
Even though Dawn wasn't responsible for Wes's crimes, she was still financially entangled with him. His LLC that he was laundering money through...
But of course, everything he'd bought for the couple, from their house to Don's shoes, could now be seized by the feds.
But of course, everything he'd bought for the couple, from their house to Don's shoes, could now be seized by the feds.
Dawn's life was on pause as she waited for the financial and legal reckoning.
Dawn's life was on pause as she waited for the financial and legal reckoning.
That's when Dawn got another unexpected call. From, of all people, a new woman Wes had started dating. She wanted to meet Dawn in person.
That's when Dawn got another unexpected call. From, of all people, a new woman Wes had started dating. She wanted to meet Dawn in person.
His name was Wes. Wes was an oil man, as they say in Texas, and he had a smooth-talking persona to match.
His name was Wes. Wes was an oil man, as they say in Texas, and he had a smooth-talking persona to match.
It wasn't until that moment when someone else described her same experiences that Dawn realized what was really happening. The last few times she went to the swingers club with Wes, those nights she'd blacked out.
It wasn't until that moment when someone else described her same experiences that Dawn realized what was really happening. The last few times she went to the swingers club with Wes, those nights she'd blacked out.
This was more than a betrayal. It was a crime. He drugged and sexually assaulted her. She was still processing this while in the middle of an SEC investigation where the government could be justified in seizing everything she had. It left her feeling overwhelmingly empty and alone.
This was more than a betrayal. It was a crime. He drugged and sexually assaulted her. She was still processing this while in the middle of an SEC investigation where the government could be justified in seizing everything she had. It left her feeling overwhelmingly empty and alone.
Every day felt excruciatingly long. Dawn says she got through it for her daughters. And Wes, well, he'd already moved on, to say the least.
Every day felt excruciatingly long. Dawn says she got through it for her daughters. And Wes, well, he'd already moved on, to say the least.
He might have been telling his family that he was innocent, but that's not what West told the government. He agreed to a plea deal with the FBI. Now he was awaiting sentencing. Finally, they could move forward with their divorce.
He might have been telling his family that he was innocent, but that's not what West told the government. He agreed to a plea deal with the FBI. Now he was awaiting sentencing. Finally, they could move forward with their divorce.
Dawn was relieved to keep the modest half of what the government left her. But Wes still wasn't done with her. Despite it all, he still kept reaching out to Dawn. She didn't reply until finally.
Dawn was relieved to keep the modest half of what the government left her. But Wes still wasn't done with her. Despite it all, he still kept reaching out to Dawn. She didn't reply until finally.
What am I going to do when I come out? He couldn't wrap his mind around the reality that he was going to prison. Considering what he'd done, Dawn was losing patience for him. She knew he was reaching out for sympathy, maybe for help processing, or maybe because he just didn't have anyone else left.
What am I going to do when I come out? He couldn't wrap his mind around the reality that he was going to prison. Considering what he'd done, Dawn was losing patience for him. She knew he was reaching out for sympathy, maybe for help processing, or maybe because he just didn't have anyone else left.
And she kind of looked at me confused. He'd been lying to everyone, including his family. He'd also been stealing from his grandmother.
And she kind of looked at me confused. He'd been lying to everyone, including his family. He'd also been stealing from his grandmother.
It's been over a decade since the end of their relationship and since Wes passed away. I try to say I don't have any regrets.
It's been over a decade since the end of their relationship and since Wes passed away. I try to say I don't have any regrets.
Hard lessons for sure. Dawn endured so much in this relationship. We asked what the hardest part was for her.
Hard lessons for sure. Dawn endured so much in this relationship. We asked what the hardest part was for her.
That's probably the hardest thing. Part of Dawn's healing process is being honest, taking accountability for her actions.
That's probably the hardest thing. Part of Dawn's healing process is being honest, taking accountability for her actions.
That night, he focused intensely on her. Wes laughed hard at her jokes, and the way he looked at her made her feel beautiful.
That night, he focused intensely on her. Wes laughed hard at her jokes, and the way he looked at her made her feel beautiful.
Dawn found happiness in starting a new career. I always wanted to be an esthetician, so now I own my own spa. That's what I'm sitting in, my little spa. She also found love again, this time with a man who was honest with her and treats her well. In fact, while we were on our call... Hi, honey. My husband brought me flowers. So sweet. Thank you, babe.
Dawn found happiness in starting a new career. I always wanted to be an esthetician, so now I own my own spa. That's what I'm sitting in, my little spa. She also found love again, this time with a man who was honest with her and treats her well. In fact, while we were on our call... Hi, honey. My husband brought me flowers. So sweet. Thank you, babe.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
next episode of Betrayal.
next episode of Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca and Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca and Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Dawn told him about her husband and two daughters, but he didn't bat an eye. Honestly, she was surprised that he was single.
Dawn told him about her husband and two daughters, but he didn't bat an eye. Honestly, she was surprised that he was single.
Against her better judgment, she gave him her phone number.
Against her better judgment, she gave him her phone number.
That went on for about eight months. In the beginning, it was an emotional affair. There was nothing physical going on. And he stuck to his story about being single with no kids.
That went on for about eight months. In the beginning, it was an emotional affair. There was nothing physical going on. And he stuck to his story about being single with no kids.
After a few months, Wes finally came clean. He did have a wife. And a daughter, too.
After a few months, Wes finally came clean. He did have a wife. And a daughter, too.
He confessed that he'd had a few affairs before, but this time with Dawn, it was different. They'd been talking every day for months, seeing each other once a week. And even though nothing physical had happened between them, Wes was in deep. This is what he told her.
He confessed that he'd had a few affairs before, but this time with Dawn, it was different. They'd been talking every day for months, seeing each other once a week. And even though nothing physical had happened between them, Wes was in deep. This is what he told her.
Wes was a preacher's son. No one in his family had ever been divorced, and Dawn understood that pressure. But after eight months, their emotional affair turned physical, and there was no going back after that.
Wes was a preacher's son. No one in his family had ever been divorced, and Dawn understood that pressure. But after eight months, their emotional affair turned physical, and there was no going back after that.
She was the first to take the leap, to leave her marriage. She wanted to start over, with Wes at her side. Not long after, Wes said he and his wife were also separating in order for him to be with Dawn. And a few months after that... We got engaged. They made their relationship public, spent time with each other's kids, and started building a new life together.
She was the first to take the leap, to leave her marriage. She wanted to start over, with Wes at her side. Not long after, Wes said he and his wife were also separating in order for him to be with Dawn. And a few months after that... We got engaged. They made their relationship public, spent time with each other's kids, and started building a new life together.
Dawn started bringing Wes around her family and spending time with his young daughter. His larger family wasn't ready to accept Wes's recent separation. Regardless, he and Dawn began envisioning a life together. Dawn had stayed home with her kids in the past and loved it. Wes said he could give that life to her again.
Dawn started bringing Wes around her family and spending time with his young daughter. His larger family wasn't ready to accept Wes's recent separation. Regardless, he and Dawn began envisioning a life together. Dawn had stayed home with her kids in the past and loved it. Wes said he could give that life to her again.
Dawn agreed to move to a small town outside of Dallas where Wes lived. His whole family was there too. He wanted to stay close to his daughter. Because he and Don weren't married yet, he decided to live separately. Wes lived with his mom, while Don and her daughters rented a small house in town.
Dawn agreed to move to a small town outside of Dallas where Wes lived. His whole family was there too. He wanted to stay close to his daughter. Because he and Don weren't married yet, he decided to live separately. Wes lived with his mom, while Don and her daughters rented a small house in town.
There, Wes got a new job in the steel business. And Dawn settled into her new life as a stay-at-home mom. The couple started making plans to get married.
There, Wes got a new job in the steel business. And Dawn settled into her new life as a stay-at-home mom. The couple started making plans to get married.
But in the middle of wedding planning, Dawn's cell phone got turned off. She assumed that Wes, as busy as he was, had forgotten to pay their bill. It was 2004, so she used her landline to call his office. He had been working at a place called Chaparral Steel.
But in the middle of wedding planning, Dawn's cell phone got turned off. She assumed that Wes, as busy as he was, had forgotten to pay their bill. It was 2004, so she used her landline to call his office. He had been working at a place called Chaparral Steel.
He lied about where he worked. What was going on?
He lied about where he worked. What was going on?
There was a long pause on the other end of the phone. Something wasn't right. Before she could get an answer about the job, the conversation took a different turn.
There was a long pause on the other end of the phone. Something wasn't right. Before she could get an answer about the job, the conversation took a different turn.
Dawn had moved her whole life and her kids to this small town. She thought it was for her and Wes to start a new life together. Turns out it was so he could be closer to his wife, who he was still living with. He was never separated.
Dawn had moved her whole life and her kids to this small town. She thought it was for her and Wes to start a new life together. Turns out it was so he could be closer to his wife, who he was still living with. He was never separated.
Within 10 minutes, both Wes and his wife were at Dawn's house, and they were fighting. I'm like, there's a cop episode up in my house right now. With hindsight, Dawn can joke about it now, but in the moment, her relationship with Wes was over.
Within 10 minutes, both Wes and his wife were at Dawn's house, and they were fighting. I'm like, there's a cop episode up in my house right now. With hindsight, Dawn can joke about it now, but in the moment, her relationship with Wes was over.
She had sympathy for him, especially as he was going through a mental health crisis.
She had sympathy for him, especially as he was going through a mental health crisis.
A few weeks after everything came to light, she took him back. Wes kept saying he was in the process of divorcing his wife.
A few weeks after everything came to light, she took him back. Wes kept saying he was in the process of divorcing his wife.
The whole situation was messy, destructive. But Dawn and Wes could finally be together for real this time. But of course, there was still that issue of his job or the job he said he had. When she asked about it, Wes confessed that he'd been fired from a string of jobs and he was too ashamed to tell her. She pitied him.
The whole situation was messy, destructive. But Dawn and Wes could finally be together for real this time. But of course, there was still that issue of his job or the job he said he had. When she asked about it, Wes confessed that he'd been fired from a string of jobs and he was too ashamed to tell her. She pitied him.
He put so much pressure on himself to appear perfect, and it was taking a massive toll on him. So Dawn's strategy was to love him through this tumultuous time, to assure him that they would figure it out together. And pretty soon, he came to her with a new job prospect. He said, I have the opportunity to go back in the oil and gas business. He was working in the oil business when they met.
He put so much pressure on himself to appear perfect, and it was taking a massive toll on him. So Dawn's strategy was to love him through this tumultuous time, to assure him that they would figure it out together. And pretty soon, he came to her with a new job prospect. He said, I have the opportunity to go back in the oil and gas business. He was working in the oil business when they met.
She didn't want him to slide back into the toxic culture he'd left behind. But she knew she couldn't control him. Plus, it was a good job offer.
She didn't want him to slide back into the toxic culture he'd left behind. But she knew she couldn't control him. Plus, it was a good job offer.
It's so interesting. It's like no matter the amount of conversations and things that you think that you're navigating and communicating, your brain just doesn't go to this worst case scenario. You just don't go there.
It's so interesting. It's like no matter the amount of conversations and things that you think that you're navigating and communicating, your brain just doesn't go to this worst case scenario. You just don't go there.
It's impossible to even ask this, but like. What are you going to do about this anger?
It's impossible to even ask this, but like. What are you going to do about this anger?
All of it feels like such an injustice. And sometimes you just need to like scream it from the mountaintops and the person that really needs to hear it. You just want to just like shove, you know. Put it out there and scream it so that they hear you.
All of it feels like such an injustice. And sometimes you just need to like scream it from the mountaintops and the person that really needs to hear it. You just want to just like shove, you know. Put it out there and scream it so that they hear you.
Progress is not a straight line. And there's a lot of similar rhetoric in this letter of where you were like in the beginning of a lot of things, you know, and you're going to make strides and getting yourself to a different place and then come back to these feelings that you have regarding this.
Progress is not a straight line. And there's a lot of similar rhetoric in this letter of where you were like in the beginning of a lot of things, you know, and you're going to make strides and getting yourself to a different place and then come back to these feelings that you have regarding this.
And one day, I really do hope you find that whatever feeling that you're longing for, you get it on your own. Yeah.
And one day, I really do hope you find that whatever feeling that you're longing for, you get it on your own. Yeah.
After the break, we'll hear from Stacey's son, Tyler. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
After the break, we'll hear from Stacey's son, Tyler. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
His goal is to be an advocate for male survivors of trauma.
His goal is to be an advocate for male survivors of trauma.
Through Betrayal and through Tyler's posts, his story has reached a lot of people. We've received so many comments and emails calling Tyler an inspiration for speaking up. My producer met with Tyler and asked him how it feels to get all that positive feedback.
Through Betrayal and through Tyler's posts, his story has reached a lot of people. We've received so many comments and emails calling Tyler an inspiration for speaking up. My producer met with Tyler and asked him how it feels to get all that positive feedback.
For so long, Tyler thought he'd take what Justin did to him to his grave.
For so long, Tyler thought he'd take what Justin did to him to his grave.
But when it came out that Justin had abused Tyler's friend, Tyler's family was concerned that he too was a victim. They kept asking him until he eventually disclosed to his aunt. Many male victims of sexual abuse keep what happened to them a secret for their whole lives. For example, Anthony Edwards, an actor Tyler spoke with in season three, didn't disclose for decades.
But when it came out that Justin had abused Tyler's friend, Tyler's family was concerned that he too was a victim. They kept asking him until he eventually disclosed to his aunt. Many male victims of sexual abuse keep what happened to them a secret for their whole lives. For example, Anthony Edwards, an actor Tyler spoke with in season three, didn't disclose for decades.
I also wanted to hear about Tyler's career. When we last talked, he was considering going into the military. But it's always been clear to me that fitness is Tyler's first love. He even did a TikTok about it.
I also wanted to hear about Tyler's career. When we last talked, he was considering going into the military. But it's always been clear to me that fitness is Tyler's first love. He even did a TikTok about it.
When I was with Tyler last, he took me to the gym and we had a great time. So I was excited to learn.
When I was with Tyler last, he took me to the gym and we had a great time. So I was excited to learn.
Earlier in this episode, Tyler's mom, Stacy, told us that Justin is appealing the length of his sentence and his ability to contact his children. We asked Tyler what he made of Justin's appeal.
Earlier in this episode, Tyler's mom, Stacy, told us that Justin is appealing the length of his sentence and his ability to contact his children. We asked Tyler what he made of Justin's appeal.
At this point, Tyler feels sorry for Justin.
At this point, Tyler feels sorry for Justin.
Tyler's referencing the fact that Justin encrypted his computer when he knew the authorities were onto him. Tyler still thinks about that years later.
Tyler's referencing the fact that Justin encrypted his computer when he knew the authorities were onto him. Tyler still thinks about that years later.
Hi guys, it's Andrea. In just two weeks, we'll be back with a brand new season of Betrayal. We'll be telling one story over several episodes. I'll take you to Colorado, where we'll do a deep dive into a betrayal of family and community. But before that, we wanted to give you an update on our family from last season. In season three, we told you the story of Stacey Rutherford and her son Tyler.
Hi guys, it's Andrea. In just two weeks, we'll be back with a brand new season of Betrayal. We'll be telling one story over several episodes. I'll take you to Colorado, where we'll do a deep dive into a betrayal of family and community. But before that, we wanted to give you an update on our family from last season. In season three, we told you the story of Stacey Rutherford and her son Tyler.
At the end of the chat, we asked Tyler what else he wanted people to know.
At the end of the chat, we asked Tyler what else he wanted people to know.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.
Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Produced by Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck.
Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Produced by Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck.
Special thanks to Stacey Rutherford, Tyler, and the rest of Stacey and Tyler's friends and family. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Salvecchio. Editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys.
Special thanks to Stacey Rutherford, Tyler, and the rest of Stacey and Tyler's friends and family. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Salvecchio. Editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Stacey was a single mom when she met Justin. She knew on their first date she would marry him, and she did. He was funny, adored her children, and had a bright future as a family physician. Together, they had two more kids. Stacey loved Justin and the family they created. After years of uncertainty, she finally felt grounded in stability. But Justin was hiding a dark secret.
Stacey was a single mom when she met Justin. She knew on their first date she would marry him, and she did. He was funny, adored her children, and had a bright future as a family physician. Together, they had two more kids. Stacey loved Justin and the family they created. After years of uncertainty, she finally felt grounded in stability. But Justin was hiding a dark secret.
For years, he was sexually abusing Tyler, Stacey's eldest son. Once he was caught, he tried to organize a murder-for-hire plot to kill Tyler and prevent him from testifying in court. For these crimes, Justin was ordered to spend decades in prison. We'll hear from Tyler later in the episode. But first, I wanted to share a conversation I had with Stacey
For years, he was sexually abusing Tyler, Stacey's eldest son. Once he was caught, he tried to organize a murder-for-hire plot to kill Tyler and prevent him from testifying in court. For these crimes, Justin was ordered to spend decades in prison. We'll hear from Tyler later in the episode. But first, I wanted to share a conversation I had with Stacey
Over the winter holidays, she called to let me know that there was an update in Justin's case. Their family's legal battle wasn't over yet. The last time you walked out of the courtroom was for the murder for hire that happened last year. And that was like, OK, this is finally like we can close the book and move on with our lives. Did you think that you were done with this?
Over the winter holidays, she called to let me know that there was an update in Justin's case. Their family's legal battle wasn't over yet. The last time you walked out of the courtroom was for the murder for hire that happened last year. And that was like, OK, this is finally like we can close the book and move on with our lives. Did you think that you were done with this?
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Stacey eventually spotted a change on Justin's docket sheet, and then she got formal notification in the mail. The appeal was happening. What is he appealing exactly?
Stacey eventually spotted a change on Justin's docket sheet, and then she got formal notification in the mail. The appeal was happening. What is he appealing exactly?
Originally, Justin was sentenced to 26 years and 10 months to 70 years in prison, with 12 years probation to follow his sentence. The judge also ordered that Justin was to have no contact with Tyler or his two younger siblings for the length of his sentence, even once they became adults.
Originally, Justin was sentenced to 26 years and 10 months to 70 years in prison, with 12 years probation to follow his sentence. The judge also ordered that Justin was to have no contact with Tyler or his two younger siblings for the length of his sentence, even once they became adults.
Right. I can understand and hold space for when they are adults. Yeah. You know, as a mom, like wanting to look to the future of your kid, having agency as an adult and being able to give them that agency. I can understand that. Yeah. Stacey has not had contact with Justin since she learned about his plot to kill Tyler. It's been over two years.
Right. I can understand and hold space for when they are adults. Yeah. You know, as a mom, like wanting to look to the future of your kid, having agency as an adult and being able to give them that agency. I can understand that. Yeah. Stacey has not had contact with Justin since she learned about his plot to kill Tyler. It's been over two years.
But recently, she started writing letters to him as a way of dealing with her emotions.
But recently, she started writing letters to him as a way of dealing with her emotions.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Like, where is all this anger and emotion coming from recently?
Like, where is all this anger and emotion coming from recently?
Stacey decided to mail one of her most recent letters. In this letter, she mentions Nanny D. Nanny's like a mother to Justin, and she's the only one who's remained in his corner. Stacey also writes about her financial situation. Justin was the breadwinner in the family. With him gone, Stacey's been left holding the bag, supporting her two young children on her own. Here's the letter.
Stacey decided to mail one of her most recent letters. In this letter, she mentions Nanny D. Nanny's like a mother to Justin, and she's the only one who's remained in his corner. Stacey also writes about her financial situation. Justin was the breadwinner in the family. With him gone, Stacey's been left holding the bag, supporting her two young children on her own. Here's the letter.
Nanny asked me the other day if you could have the kids signed up for a charity that provides toys for children of incarcerated parents. And I can't help but think the last thing we need is more toys. If in the next few years we may not even be able to afford a home to put those toys in. Yeah, that's my reality these days. That's your children's reality these days.
Nanny asked me the other day if you could have the kids signed up for a charity that provides toys for children of incarcerated parents. And I can't help but think the last thing we need is more toys. If in the next few years we may not even be able to afford a home to put those toys in. Yeah, that's my reality these days. That's your children's reality these days.
I see no light at the end of this tunnel. I remember you telling me I'd never have to live like this again. And I'm worse off. So when you heard about the kids' charity of toys of incarcerated parents, was your first reaction anger?
I see no light at the end of this tunnel. I remember you telling me I'd never have to live like this again. And I'm worse off. So when you heard about the kids' charity of toys of incarcerated parents, was your first reaction anger?
Justin has a private attorney, and this infuriates Stacey. He somehow has the money to pay for his appeal, but has contributed nothing to the care of their children.
Justin has a private attorney, and this infuriates Stacey. He somehow has the money to pay for his appeal, but has contributed nothing to the care of their children.
Right. It kind of just seems like he wants to be able to contribute in this way, but he's not understanding the larger impact that all of his actions have put you and the kids in. Like, it just felt like you were shaking him with this letter of like, you don't really know how bad things are because of everything that you've done.
Right. It kind of just seems like he wants to be able to contribute in this way, but he's not understanding the larger impact that all of his actions have put you and the kids in. Like, it just felt like you were shaking him with this letter of like, you don't really know how bad things are because of everything that you've done.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
In December, right around the holidays, we caught up with Stacey Rutherford, whose story we highlighted in Season 3. Recently, she wrote a letter to her ex-husband, Justin, while he remains in prison. Stacey shared that letter with us. there's this theme in your letter where you talk about, you know, you promised me that things were going to be different. Like I'd already gone through a divorce.
In December, right around the holidays, we caught up with Stacey Rutherford, whose story we highlighted in Season 3. Recently, she wrote a letter to her ex-husband, Justin, while he remains in prison. Stacey shared that letter with us. there's this theme in your letter where you talk about, you know, you promised me that things were going to be different. Like I'd already gone through a divorce.
I had already gotten pretty far on raising two kids to end up in this place. That's a really intense cycle to be thinking about.
I had already gotten pretty far on raising two kids to end up in this place. That's a really intense cycle to be thinking about.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Ryan took that first weekend with Jacques slow.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Ryan took that first weekend with Jacques slow.
He already knew they had a magnetic attraction. He wanted to get to know Jacques on a deeper level.
He already knew they had a magnetic attraction. He wanted to get to know Jacques on a deeper level.
They stayed up late and talked about their lives. Jacques had multiple citizenships, spoke four languages, and owned homes around the world, all thanks to his illustrious career.
They stayed up late and talked about their lives. Jacques had multiple citizenships, spoke four languages, and owned homes around the world, all thanks to his illustrious career.
He traveled for work nearly every week and was really well-connected, which came with a lot of perks. It wasn't just his resume that impressed Ryan. It was also his commitment to health and fitness.
He traveled for work nearly every week and was really well-connected, which came with a lot of perks. It wasn't just his resume that impressed Ryan. It was also his commitment to health and fitness.
Like Ryan, he was present, emotionally intelligent, empathetic.
Like Ryan, he was present, emotionally intelligent, empathetic.
Jacques was the full package, the right guy that Ryan had been waiting for. When he went back to New York, Ryan was almost giddy.
Jacques was the full package, the right guy that Ryan had been waiting for. When he went back to New York, Ryan was almost giddy.
They made plans for Ryan to go to Miami again just a few weeks later. And this time, he stayed at Jack's apartment. It was all white with tall ceilings and big glass windows. Ryan could see himself spending a lot more time there.
They made plans for Ryan to go to Miami again just a few weeks later. And this time, he stayed at Jack's apartment. It was all white with tall ceilings and big glass windows. Ryan could see himself spending a lot more time there.
That night, they made it official.
That night, they made it official.
They started dating long distance, but that didn't stop them from daydreaming about their future together.
They started dating long distance, but that didn't stop them from daydreaming about their future together.
The distance became excruciating. After every visit, Ryan fell more in love with Jacques and with Miami.
The distance became excruciating. After every visit, Ryan fell more in love with Jacques and with Miami.
One day when Ryan was back in New York, he got a surprising text from Jacques.
One day when Ryan was back in New York, he got a surprising text from Jacques.
That date was their anniversary, the day they made it official.
That date was their anniversary, the day they made it official.
They started making plans for Ryan to move in. He couldn't get a full-time teaching position in Miami until next year. So he'd have to pick up classes when he could.
They started making plans for Ryan to move in. He couldn't get a full-time teaching position in Miami until next year. So he'd have to pick up classes when he could.
At the time, Jacques was the CMO at a luxury hotel brand. He could afford to cover some of their bills. Before they took the big step to move in together, Ryan invited him to meet his parents, who'd also relocated to Florida. His parents loved the idea of Ryan being close by. When they met for dinner, Jacques made a big first impression.
At the time, Jacques was the CMO at a luxury hotel brand. He could afford to cover some of their bills. Before they took the big step to move in together, Ryan invited him to meet his parents, who'd also relocated to Florida. His parents loved the idea of Ryan being close by. When they met for dinner, Jacques made a big first impression.
In fact, Jacques arrived at the dinner straight from a day of work at the CEO's estate.
In fact, Jacques arrived at the dinner straight from a day of work at the CEO's estate.
Jacques seemed a bit nervous, but he passed the test for Ryan's parents. After that, the move to Miami was just a matter of logistics.
Jacques seemed a bit nervous, but he passed the test for Ryan's parents. After that, the move to Miami was just a matter of logistics.
When he got there, life with Jacques was better than he imagined.
When he got there, life with Jacques was better than he imagined.
He knew Jacques was the one and it came from the simple moments.
He knew Jacques was the one and it came from the simple moments.
Everything was going smoothly until one day Jacques came home and said he quit his executive marketing job just out of the blue.
Everything was going smoothly until one day Jacques came home and said he quit his executive marketing job just out of the blue.
The announcement rattled Ryan, especially considering that Jacques assured him that he would support the couple financially.
The announcement rattled Ryan, especially considering that Jacques assured him that he would support the couple financially.
And he was well-connected in the marketing world. He said he'd find another job, no problem. And Ryan trusted him. Ryan focused on settling into the new city, making friends, and exploring Miami's music scene. One of his favorite bands was coming into town, so he borrowed his dad's credit card to get presale tickets. A few weeks later, Ryan logged in to pay off the bill.
And he was well-connected in the marketing world. He said he'd find another job, no problem. And Ryan trusted him. Ryan focused on settling into the new city, making friends, and exploring Miami's music scene. One of his favorite bands was coming into town, so he borrowed his dad's credit card to get presale tickets. A few weeks later, Ryan logged in to pay off the bill.
He contested the charge and submitted a report. And he told his parents to keep him posted about the fraudulent charge. A few weeks later, he was in between teaching classes when he got a text from his mom. She wanted to talk on the phone right away. Her formality scared him. He feared a family emergency.
He contested the charge and submitted a report. And he told his parents to keep him posted about the fraudulent charge. A few weeks later, he was in between teaching classes when he got a text from his mom. She wanted to talk on the phone right away. Her formality scared him. He feared a family emergency.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. A few months ago, my twin sister called me. She wanted to connect me with someone who had a betrayal story of his own. It was her favorite fitness instructor, Ryan Lewis. Ryan's a force of nature.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. A few months ago, my twin sister called me. She wanted to connect me with someone who had a betrayal story of his own. It was her favorite fitness instructor, Ryan Lewis. Ryan's a force of nature.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Ryan's parents called in with news about a fraudulent charge on their credit card. They'd done a full investigation and traced the charge to a divorce lawyer in Fort Lauderdale. What they found was Jacques had met with a lawyer and he charged that meeting to their Amex.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Ryan's parents called in with news about a fraudulent charge on their credit card. They'd done a full investigation and traced the charge to a divorce lawyer in Fort Lauderdale. What they found was Jacques had met with a lawyer and he charged that meeting to their Amex.
Ryan wanted answers. He needed to hear Jacques explain himself.
Ryan wanted answers. He needed to hear Jacques explain himself.
They fought that whole night until Jacques finally confessed that, yes, he was in the process of getting divorced.
They fought that whole night until Jacques finally confessed that, yes, he was in the process of getting divorced.
He said that using Ryan's credit card, or his parents' credit card rather, was just an accident. But that confession was quickly overshadowed by what Ryan discovered next. He wanted to search Jacques' phone to see if there was anything else he was hiding.
He said that using Ryan's credit card, or his parents' credit card rather, was just an accident. But that confession was quickly overshadowed by what Ryan discovered next. He wanted to search Jacques' phone to see if there was anything else he was hiding.
For each person he talked to, Jacques was putting on a totally different persona, and Ryan didn't recognize any of them.
For each person he talked to, Jacques was putting on a totally different persona, and Ryan didn't recognize any of them.
Ryan has an infectious energy. I can attest to this firsthand because I used to take his class in my hometown. Not only does he have the best music, but the way he motivates the class, it's not just physical, it's also emotional. I may or may not have cried in his class before.
Ryan has an infectious energy. I can attest to this firsthand because I used to take his class in my hometown. Not only does he have the best music, but the way he motivates the class, it's not just physical, it's also emotional. I may or may not have cried in his class before.
Ryan scrolled through Jacques' messages with dozens of guys. He was furious and heartbroken, but also confused because Jacques didn't have one story about his life. He had many.
Ryan scrolled through Jacques' messages with dozens of guys. He was furious and heartbroken, but also confused because Jacques didn't have one story about his life. He had many.
Jacques' story was that these flings happened before he started dating Ryan. But it was a bold lie, considering Ryan could see the timestamps on the messages and knew it wasn't true. So he decided to DM one of the guys.
Jacques' story was that these flings happened before he started dating Ryan. But it was a bold lie, considering Ryan could see the timestamps on the messages and knew it wasn't true. So he decided to DM one of the guys.
Ryan confronted him again, and that's when he saw a new side of Jacques.
Ryan confronted him again, and that's when he saw a new side of Jacques.
Seeing Jacques distraught and vulnerable triggered Ryan's need to help to make it better.
Seeing Jacques distraught and vulnerable triggered Ryan's need to help to make it better.
It also reminded him of his own rock bottom 10 years earlier, when his boyfriend at the time stuck by him and got him the help he needed to get sober.
It also reminded him of his own rock bottom 10 years earlier, when his boyfriend at the time stuck by him and got him the help he needed to get sober.
Jacques was talking about his mistakes openly with Ryan, which felt like the right step. And Ryan knew that relationships were nuanced.
Jacques was talking about his mistakes openly with Ryan, which felt like the right step. And Ryan knew that relationships were nuanced.
So they set up new boundaries, boundaries that Jock agreed to.
So they set up new boundaries, boundaries that Jock agreed to.
Ryan's inclined to put other people's happiness first, sometimes to a fault. And one of his core values is to assume the best in others.
Ryan's inclined to put other people's happiness first, sometimes to a fault. And one of his core values is to assume the best in others.
Ryan was comfortable giving Jacques a second chance.
Ryan was comfortable giving Jacques a second chance.
They had done their own research on Jacques.
They had done their own research on Jacques.
Jacques was named in a lawsuit over an illegal sublet and unpaid rent scheme in the Hamptons. The case amounted to fraud worth over $100,000. But there was an explanation. It was his ex-husband, the one from the green card marriage. He was actually the one responsible for those charges. But because they were married, Jacques was also named on the lawsuit.
Jacques was named in a lawsuit over an illegal sublet and unpaid rent scheme in the Hamptons. The case amounted to fraud worth over $100,000. But there was an explanation. It was his ex-husband, the one from the green card marriage. He was actually the one responsible for those charges. But because they were married, Jacques was also named on the lawsuit.
Ryan's parents didn't buy it. And in fact, it created a rift between them. The first one they ever had.
Ryan's parents didn't buy it. And in fact, it created a rift between them. The first one they ever had.
Ryan doubled down and said he wouldn't be coming home for Thanksgiving if Jacques couldn't come too. He felt that Jacques deserved a second chance, just like everyone else. And his parents just didn't understand. Soon, Jacques was no longer the problem. The problem became Ryan's parents.
Ryan doubled down and said he wouldn't be coming home for Thanksgiving if Jacques couldn't come too. He felt that Jacques deserved a second chance, just like everyone else. And his parents just didn't understand. Soon, Jacques was no longer the problem. The problem became Ryan's parents.
During this time, Ryan needed to buy a new car for work. With their relationship seemingly on the right track, he and Jacques decided to go in on their dream car together.
During this time, Ryan needed to buy a new car for work. With their relationship seemingly on the right track, he and Jacques decided to go in on their dream car together.
They ordered the car and had it fully customized.
They ordered the car and had it fully customized.
Then the first car payment came.
Then the first car payment came.
But Ryan never got an email receipt about these payments.
But Ryan never got an email receipt about these payments.
There it was, proof that Jacques was not only stealing money from him, but he was covering it up.
There it was, proof that Jacques was not only stealing money from him, but he was covering it up.
When Ryan made this discovery, Jacques was out of the house. So he took the opportunity to run.
When Ryan made this discovery, Jacques was out of the house. So he took the opportunity to run.
He grew up outside of Philadelphia in a well-to-do family. He's very close with his parents and siblings. The family is ambitious, academic.
He grew up outside of Philadelphia in a well-to-do family. He's very close with his parents and siblings. The family is ambitious, academic.
His parents forgave him immediately. But the process of leaving Jacques was just beginning.
His parents forgave him immediately. But the process of leaving Jacques was just beginning.
Ryan thought he was going to spend the rest of his life with this man, and now he wasn't sure if anything he'd been told was true. He needed to talk to Jacques' ex-husband, you know, in the green card marriage.
Ryan thought he was going to spend the rest of his life with this man, and now he wasn't sure if anything he'd been told was true. He needed to talk to Jacques' ex-husband, you know, in the green card marriage.
His ex had a lot to say about Jacques, especially the lies he discovered in their marriage.
His ex had a lot to say about Jacques, especially the lies he discovered in their marriage.
As a teenager, Ryan got into theater, and his parents were at every performance, like when he was cast as Jean Valjean in a local theater production of Les Mis.
As a teenager, Ryan got into theater, and his parents were at every performance, like when he was cast as Jean Valjean in a local theater production of Les Mis.
Did he ever fight in the IDF? Or was that another lie? All those stories Jacques told him about how his ex-husband was leeching off him, the opposite was true. Ryan and Jacques' ex talked almost every week for those first few months. They were both members of a crappy club.
Did he ever fight in the IDF? Or was that another lie? All those stories Jacques told him about how his ex-husband was leeching off him, the opposite was true. Ryan and Jacques' ex talked almost every week for those first few months. They were both members of a crappy club.
Ryan also found a mutual friend, someone who'd known Jacques in St. Barts. He'd been invited to Jacques' childhood home, which was a huge mansion.
Ryan also found a mutual friend, someone who'd known Jacques in St. Barts. He'd been invited to Jacques' childhood home, which was a huge mansion.
After Ryan got out of the relationship and started to see the deception and lies for what they were, he developed a new theory about Jacques. Jacques had always seemed to be so perceptive. He always knew what Ryan was thinking and what he was worried about before he even said anything. But maybe it was more sinister than just intuition.
After Ryan got out of the relationship and started to see the deception and lies for what they were, he developed a new theory about Jacques. Jacques had always seemed to be so perceptive. He always knew what Ryan was thinking and what he was worried about before he even said anything. But maybe it was more sinister than just intuition.
When Jacques was out of the apartment, Ryan would talk on the phone to his friends, his parents, his therapist.
When Jacques was out of the apartment, Ryan would talk on the phone to his friends, his parents, his therapist.
No wonder he was so intuitive. He was listening in on Ryan's therapy sessions all along. It was total manipulation to make Ryan feel like Jacques truly saw him, understood him, loved him. How much money did Ryan lose in this relationship? This is what he estimates.
No wonder he was so intuitive. He was listening in on Ryan's therapy sessions all along. It was total manipulation to make Ryan feel like Jacques truly saw him, understood him, loved him. How much money did Ryan lose in this relationship? This is what he estimates.
Ryan stayed in Florida and so did Jacques in the same apartment. Ryan doesn't want to leave Miami because he loves it there. They have run into each other from a distance.
Ryan stayed in Florida and so did Jacques in the same apartment. Ryan doesn't want to leave Miami because he loves it there. They have run into each other from a distance.
It's strange watching from the sidelines as Jacques continues a life of deception and lies. As for that tattoo that Jacques got, the one with their anniversary date on his finger, it was one of many tattoos Jacques had. Tattoos that Ryan now sees differently.
It's strange watching from the sidelines as Jacques continues a life of deception and lies. As for that tattoo that Jacques got, the one with their anniversary date on his finger, it was one of many tattoos Jacques had. Tattoos that Ryan now sees differently.
After graduating high school, he went to NYU.
After graduating high school, he went to NYU.
Ryan's ready to let go of the shame and self-blame he felt after this betrayal. And telling his story is part of that release. We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
Ryan's ready to let go of the shame and self-blame he felt after this betrayal. And telling his story is part of that release. We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
Thank you so much for having me. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Thank you so much for having me. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
He started his first serious relationship with a guy he met online. He was 11 years older than Ryan, and he had an established job in finance.
He started his first serious relationship with a guy he met online. He was 11 years older than Ryan, and he had an established job in finance.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca and Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca and Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
The two of them would go on benders together, partying and doing cocaine. When the relationship ended, Ryan's cocaine use didn't. His next boyfriend noticed it immediately.
The two of them would go on benders together, partying and doing cocaine. When the relationship ended, Ryan's cocaine use didn't. His next boyfriend noticed it immediately.
He fell in love with this new guy. It was the first time he could see himself with someone long-term. But all the while, Ryan was lying to him, hiding his drug use. His boyfriend would draw a line in the sand, Ryan would promise to get clean, but then he'd end up using again, and the cycle would repeat itself. Ryan says that this was his rock bottom.
He fell in love with this new guy. It was the first time he could see himself with someone long-term. But all the while, Ryan was lying to him, hiding his drug use. His boyfriend would draw a line in the sand, Ryan would promise to get clean, but then he'd end up using again, and the cycle would repeat itself. Ryan says that this was his rock bottom.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Ryan started going to outpatient rehab every day. He and his boyfriend ultimately separated. Today, Ryan's been sober for 10 years. Back when he first got sober, he found a new clarity on his priorities. He was 23, a recent graduate with a degree in business administration, and he landed a corporate marketing job. But getting sober changed him, and marketing analytics felt empty.
Ryan started going to outpatient rehab every day. He and his boyfriend ultimately separated. Today, Ryan's been sober for 10 years. Back when he first got sober, he found a new clarity on his priorities. He was 23, a recent graduate with a degree in business administration, and he landed a corporate marketing job. But getting sober changed him, and marketing analytics felt empty.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
And what he was passionate about was fitness.
And what he was passionate about was fitness.
He went so often that one day an instructor asked if he would be interested in teaching.
He went so often that one day an instructor asked if he would be interested in teaching.
But he decided to give it a shot, no matter what his parents thought.
But he decided to give it a shot, no matter what his parents thought.
Of course, he was hired and began instructor training. Right away, he knew that this wasn't just a job. It was going to be his career.
Of course, he was hired and began instructor training. Right away, he knew that this wasn't just a job. It was going to be his career.
After investing his entire 20s in growing his career, he wanted a partner he could build a life with, someone who could match his passion and energy.
After investing his entire 20s in growing his career, he wanted a partner he could build a life with, someone who could match his passion and energy.
In 2019, Ryan got a coveted summer position teaching in the Hamptons. He was on the dating apps, but wasn't expecting to find anything serious. After all, it's a vacation town.
In 2019, Ryan got a coveted summer position teaching in the Hamptons. He was on the dating apps, but wasn't expecting to find anything serious. After all, it's a vacation town.
Ryan had a lot of unopened messages on his dating apps. But one day he got a message that piqued his interest. It was from a guy we're going to call Jacques.
Ryan had a lot of unopened messages on his dating apps. But one day he got a message that piqued his interest. It was from a guy we're going to call Jacques.
Jacques invited him over and Ryan didn't hesitate.
Jacques invited him over and Ryan didn't hesitate.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When he got to Jacques' house in the Hamptons, he was impressed. Jacques was a high-level marketing executive with the lifestyle to match.
When he got to Jacques' house in the Hamptons, he was impressed. Jacques was a high-level marketing executive with the lifestyle to match.
After their fling, he and Jacques followed each other on Instagram. Summer was nearly over when they met, so Ryan returned to his regular teaching position in the city without seeing him again. Over the next few years, their only contact was the occasional emoji DM. That was until Ryan posted a photo from his family vacation.
After their fling, he and Jacques followed each other on Instagram. Summer was nearly over when they met, so Ryan returned to his regular teaching position in the city without seeing him again. Over the next few years, their only contact was the occasional emoji DM. That was until Ryan posted a photo from his family vacation.
Even though it was a few years since they met, their chemistry still felt electric. Ryan had moved back to New York City and Jacques was living in Miami. So Ryan made plans to go visit him there. A couple days before Ryan was set to arrive, Jacques called.
Even though it was a few years since they met, their chemistry still felt electric. Ryan had moved back to New York City and Jacques was living in Miami. So Ryan made plans to go visit him there. A couple days before Ryan was set to arrive, Jacques called.
It wasn't ideal, but he was struck by Jacques' generosity.
It wasn't ideal, but he was struck by Jacques' generosity.
They weren't able to stay together at Jacques' place, but Jacques had a solution. A friend with an Airbnb said that they could use it at a discount. So Ryan paid him $500 for the place and boarded a plane to Miami.
They weren't able to stay together at Jacques' place, but Jacques had a solution. A friend with an Airbnb said that they could use it at a discount. So Ryan paid him $500 for the place and boarded a plane to Miami.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Once they got married, Alan and Jan were both busier than ever. He had a heavy caseload and would often work late into the night at his practice. Meanwhile, Jan was charging ahead with her master's in psychology, which eventually turned into a PhD and then a postdoc.
Once they got married, Alan and Jan were both busier than ever. He had a heavy caseload and would often work late into the night at his practice. Meanwhile, Jan was charging ahead with her master's in psychology, which eventually turned into a PhD and then a postdoc.
Alan wasn't exactly the romantic type, but life with him was steady, easy.
Alan wasn't exactly the romantic type, but life with him was steady, easy.
It was comfortable. Becoming a psychologist was Jan's sole focus.
It was comfortable. Becoming a psychologist was Jan's sole focus.
They stuck to the same old routine as the years ticked by. Then, in 1984, 10 years into their marriage, Jan noticed a change in Alan. It started in November when she traveled to Arizona to be with her parents. She'd come down with mono, so she went to recover where it was warmer.
They stuck to the same old routine as the years ticked by. Then, in 1984, 10 years into their marriage, Jan noticed a change in Alan. It started in November when she traveled to Arizona to be with her parents. She'd come down with mono, so she went to recover where it was warmer.
She stayed in Arizona for three weeks. When Jan got better and returned to Michigan, Alan seemed disturbed. He was panicked. She'd never seen him like this before. And he continued to spiral downward for months. And by May of 1985, they decided to admit him to a psychiatric hospital for a few weeks of intensive mental health care.
She stayed in Arizona for three weeks. When Jan got better and returned to Michigan, Alan seemed disturbed. He was panicked. She'd never seen him like this before. And he continued to spiral downward for months. And by May of 1985, they decided to admit him to a psychiatric hospital for a few weeks of intensive mental health care.
What did that mean? The phrase didn't make any sense to Jan.
What did that mean? The phrase didn't make any sense to Jan.
He was having a psychotic break. Eventually, he was released from the hospital, and he seemed much better. But Jan couldn't shake the feeling that something wasn't quite right. And that feeling only grew as spring turned to summer. One day, Jan was gardening out back.
He was having a psychotic break. Eventually, he was released from the hospital, and he seemed much better. But Jan couldn't shake the feeling that something wasn't quite right. And that feeling only grew as spring turned to summer. One day, Jan was gardening out back.
It was a small detail, but one that didn't sit right with her. Neither she or Alan smoked, and they didn't have a gardener or a housekeeper. So that meant someone had been standing outside her kitchen window, smoking. Jan imagined a stranger just lurking in her backyard, watching her through the window. She checked every room in the house, in the basement, all around the perimeter.
It was a small detail, but one that didn't sit right with her. Neither she or Alan smoked, and they didn't have a gardener or a housekeeper. So that meant someone had been standing outside her kitchen window, smoking. Jan imagined a stranger just lurking in her backyard, watching her through the window. She checked every room in the house, in the basement, all around the perimeter.
No one was there. Alan was at work, so she left him a message at his office. But he never returned her call.
No one was there. Alan was at work, so she left him a message at his office. But he never returned her call.
Was someone casing the house and planning to rob them? Her mind went to dark places.
Was someone casing the house and planning to rob them? Her mind went to dark places.
Alan explained that he wanted to show his colleagues this album. He didn't understand Jan's concern. Even with this explanation, she still felt uneasy, especially when... We started having hang-up calls in the middle of the night.
Alan explained that he wanted to show his colleagues this album. He didn't understand Jan's concern. Even with this explanation, she still felt uneasy, especially when... We started having hang-up calls in the middle of the night.
Jan didn't know who he was asking for, but every few days, this man would call back in the middle of the night, and every time... I said it was the wrong number, and I hung up. But nothing was more unsettling than what happened one evening in the beginning of July.
Jan didn't know who he was asking for, but every few days, this man would call back in the middle of the night, and every time... I said it was the wrong number, and I hung up. But nothing was more unsettling than what happened one evening in the beginning of July.
If one of these things had happened, sure, she could have chalked it up to paranoia. But the cigarettes, the photo album, the hang-up calls, being followed? Something was off. And Alan wasn't taking it seriously.
If one of these things had happened, sure, she could have chalked it up to paranoia. But the cigarettes, the photo album, the hang-up calls, being followed? Something was off. And Alan wasn't taking it seriously.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is our last Betrayal Weekly episode for a little while. We'll be back in May with a whole new season of Betrayal. It'll be one story told over multiple weeks. And after that, we have more Betrayal Weekly episodes coming.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is our last Betrayal Weekly episode for a little while. We'll be back in May with a whole new season of Betrayal. It'll be one story told over multiple weeks. And after that, we have more Betrayal Weekly episodes coming.
Then on July 13th, 1985, Alan didn't come home for dinner at his usual time.
Then on July 13th, 1985, Alan didn't come home for dinner at his usual time.
Jan woke up the next morning without Alan in bed beside her. He had still not returned. She called friends and family and co-workers of his. No one had seen him. So after 24 hours, she reported him missing.
Jan woke up the next morning without Alan in bed beside her. He had still not returned. She called friends and family and co-workers of his. No one had seen him. So after 24 hours, she reported him missing.
With each day, she grew more and more panicked. He could have been in a car accident or a carjacking. He could have been mugged or kidnapped. After all, it was Detroit in the 80s.
With each day, she grew more and more panicked. He could have been in a car accident or a carjacking. He could have been mugged or kidnapped. After all, it was Detroit in the 80s.
Jan needed support. Her parents flew in from Arizona to be with her. But they weren't the only ones at her door.
Jan needed support. Her parents flew in from Arizona to be with her. But they weren't the only ones at her door.
Jan waited. A week went by. Then eight days. And nine days.
Jan waited. A week went by. Then eight days. And nine days.
The detective was outside the building, waiting for her when she arrived. They went up in the elevator.
The detective was outside the building, waiting for her when she arrived. They went up in the elevator.
Right now, we're actively working on new stories. So if you have a story you'd like to share on the podcast, write to us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we have some spectacular bonus content, including updates on cases you've heard on Betrayal Weekly. We're also interviewing experts and getting their opinions on the stories you've heard.
Right now, we're actively working on new stories. So if you have a story you'd like to share on the podcast, write to us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we have some spectacular bonus content, including updates on cases you've heard on Betrayal Weekly. We're also interviewing experts and getting their opinions on the stories you've heard.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
We can't wait for you to hear what we have coming up. Now, on to this week's episode. This is Jan Canty's story. She grew up in Detroit in the 1950s and 60s. It was an era of social change, a time when protests erupted across the country and people demanded equality. It all informed the woman Jan became.
We can't wait for you to hear what we have coming up. Now, on to this week's episode. This is Jan Canty's story. She grew up in Detroit in the 1950s and 60s. It was an era of social change, a time when protests erupted across the country and people demanded equality. It all informed the woman Jan became.
Jan Canty's husband, Alan, had been missing for over a week when she got called into the Detroit police station. The investigators suspected that Alan had been murdered, but they didn't have his body. They'd been investigating his disappearance and found something surprising. Alan was well-known in Detroit's Red Light District. He was often there spending money on sex workers.
Jan Canty's husband, Alan, had been missing for over a week when she got called into the Detroit police station. The investigators suspected that Alan had been murdered, but they didn't have his body. They'd been investigating his disappearance and found something surprising. Alan was well-known in Detroit's Red Light District. He was often there spending money on sex workers.
Jan knew her husband to be a bookish, bashful man, a psychologist who spent his free time reading.
Jan knew her husband to be a bookish, bashful man, a psychologist who spent his free time reading.
Jan was incredulous. But with no other leads, she took the detective's advice to take a look at Alan's finances.
Jan was incredulous. But with no other leads, she took the detective's advice to take a look at Alan's finances.
A few days later, as she was still making sense of the finances, she got another call from the police. They had more intel.
A few days later, as she was still making sense of the finances, she got another call from the police. They had more intel.
The detective explained to Jan that they would need to go to the morgue.
The detective explained to Jan that they would need to go to the morgue.
His body had been dismembered.
His body had been dismembered.
The detective held her up on one side as her dad held her up on the other. The experience was incredibly traumatic. Jan can't even remember who was in the room.
The detective held her up on one side as her dad held her up on the other. The experience was incredibly traumatic. Jan can't even remember who was in the room.
The detective snuck Jan out the back. Camera crews were waiting for her out front. The story had become national news. On the way home from the morgue, Jan laid down in the back of the police car. Jan could no longer deny the reality. Her husband was dead. And he was murdered by people she'd never heard of. And who were these people? Well, they were still at large.
The detective snuck Jan out the back. Camera crews were waiting for her out front. The story had become national news. On the way home from the morgue, Jan laid down in the back of the police car. Jan could no longer deny the reality. Her husband was dead. And he was murdered by people she'd never heard of. And who were these people? Well, they were still at large.
Jan didn't want to look at the TV, but her dad insisted.
Jan didn't want to look at the TV, but her dad insisted.
Their names were John Carl Fry Sr. and Dawn Marie Spence. As Jan watched the news, she found out for the first time who these people were. Dawn was a sex worker and John was her boyfriend. The media ran with the story of a wealthy psychologist being sucked into a dark love triangle. But could that be true? Jan still couldn't fathom it. And I'm still like, Al?
Their names were John Carl Fry Sr. and Dawn Marie Spence. As Jan watched the news, she found out for the first time who these people were. Dawn was a sex worker and John was her boyfriend. The media ran with the story of a wealthy psychologist being sucked into a dark love triangle. But could that be true? Jan still couldn't fathom it. And I'm still like, Al?
The man she knew was quiet, intellectual, earnest. Someone who'd get wrapped up in a world like this was a different Alan Canty entirely. Jan barely had the basic facts of the case. She didn't even know how Alan met these people and what their relationship really was. But she didn't have the time to look for answers.
The man she knew was quiet, intellectual, earnest. Someone who'd get wrapped up in a world like this was a different Alan Canty entirely. Jan barely had the basic facts of the case. She didn't even know how Alan met these people and what their relationship really was. But she didn't have the time to look for answers.
After all, she had been followed. The fear and stress were taking a massive toll on her.
After all, she had been followed. The fear and stress were taking a massive toll on her.
Alan had led a double life, one she still didn't have a clear picture of. She was deeply betrayed, but she was also grieving.
Alan had led a double life, one she still didn't have a clear picture of. She was deeply betrayed, but she was also grieving.
With Alan dead, there was nowhere for her anger to go. He couldn't answer for what he'd done. And to make matters worse, Alan had kept financial secrets, big ones.
With Alan dead, there was nowhere for her anger to go. He couldn't answer for what he'd done. And to make matters worse, Alan had kept financial secrets, big ones.
Jan didn't know what possibilities were out there for her. She loves learning, but she didn't love school.
Jan didn't know what possibilities were out there for her. She loves learning, but she didn't love school.
It took two years for Jan to get on steady ground after Alan was murdered. And during that time, she was still unaware of who her husband really was and what he had truly done. Then, in 1987, Jan got approached by a reporter. He was writing a book about Alan's case. At first, Jan tried to shut the book down. She didn't need anyone showing up on her doorstep again. digging up old wounds.
It took two years for Jan to get on steady ground after Alan was murdered. And during that time, she was still unaware of who her husband really was and what he had truly done. Then, in 1987, Jan got approached by a reporter. He was writing a book about Alan's case. At first, Jan tried to shut the book down. She didn't need anyone showing up on her doorstep again. digging up old wounds.
So she did. And through the reporter's findings, the other Alan Canty finally revealed himself. Here's what she learned.
So she did. And through the reporter's findings, the other Alan Canty finally revealed himself. Here's what she learned.
All those late nights that he was working, he was really with these women. It was like he had a pathological desire to save women in need. So when his mother gave Alan $500 for his 50th birthday... He took that money and spent it on Dawn.
All those late nights that he was working, he was really with these women. It was like he had a pathological desire to save women in need. So when his mother gave Alan $500 for his 50th birthday... He took that money and spent it on Dawn.
This was when Jan was sick with mono and resting at her parents' place in Arizona. Jan thought back to that birthday call when Alan started to cry. Originally, she thought it was out of concern for her health.
This was when Jan was sick with mono and resting at her parents' place in Arizona. Jan thought back to that birthday call when Alan started to cry. Originally, she thought it was out of concern for her health.
The guilt apparently subsided, and Alan continued to spend time in the red light district where he met Dawn. There, he wasn't the sheepish guy Jan had known. Even smaller details didn't square up with what she knew about him.
The guilt apparently subsided, and Alan continued to spend time in the red light district where he met Dawn. There, he wasn't the sheepish guy Jan had known. Even smaller details didn't square up with what she knew about him.
The other Alan spent his nights with Dawn at bars, and the reporter told Jan something that changed her understanding of the whole dynamic. Before Alan died, he'd been hanging out with Dawn and John for nine months. For most of that time, Alan wasn't paying Dawn for sex. They stopped having sex. They only had sex the first two months. So what was the point of their relationship? Could it be drugs?
The other Alan spent his nights with Dawn at bars, and the reporter told Jan something that changed her understanding of the whole dynamic. Before Alan died, he'd been hanging out with Dawn and John for nine months. For most of that time, Alan wasn't paying Dawn for sex. They stopped having sex. They only had sex the first two months. So what was the point of their relationship? Could it be drugs?
If she could have dropped out of high school, she would have. So college wasn't part of her plan. She didn't even know how to apply.
If she could have dropped out of high school, she would have. So college wasn't part of her plan. She didn't even know how to apply.
The reporter turned to Jan for an answer. And in her gut, she knew. It was an addiction of a different kind. An addiction to being needed.
The reporter turned to Jan for an answer. And in her gut, she knew. It was an addiction of a different kind. An addiction to being needed.
He liked having a captive audience.
He liked having a captive audience.
Of course, Don and John got something out of this relationship too. They were in it for money. Jan was able to figure out just how much Alan had given them.
Of course, Don and John got something out of this relationship too. They were in it for money. Jan was able to figure out just how much Alan had given them.
In today's money, that's nearly $440,000.
In today's money, that's nearly $440,000.
This was Alan's M.O. He got people to need him. But this time, Alan was mixed up with some very dangerous people.
This was Alan's M.O. He got people to need him. But this time, Alan was mixed up with some very dangerous people.
Remember those phone calls Jan got in the middle of the night? The ones from the man with the southern accent?
Remember those phone calls Jan got in the middle of the night? The ones from the man with the southern accent?
Alan had lied and said he was a widower. So when John called the house and heard Alan's wife on the line, he was surprised. Then he got an idea. He could use that information to extort Alan, to threaten his wife, in exchange for more and more money. And they drained him dry.
Alan had lied and said he was a widower. So when John called the house and heard Alan's wife on the line, he was surprised. Then he got an idea. He could use that information to extort Alan, to threaten his wife, in exchange for more and more money. And they drained him dry.
Near the end, Alan started to see the writing on the wall. He was running out of money to give them.
Near the end, Alan started to see the writing on the wall. He was running out of money to give them.
That led to Alan's psychotic break, or what Jan had thought was a psychotic break. She remembered that phrase Alan kept repeating when he was in the hospital.
That led to Alan's psychotic break, or what Jan had thought was a psychotic break. She remembered that phrase Alan kept repeating when he was in the hospital.
To Alan, Jan and Dawn were total opposites. Jan was the woman he transformed into something good and clean and pure. Dawn brought out his dark side. But when Jan learned more about Dawn's backstory, it resonated with her.
To Alan, Jan and Dawn were total opposites. Jan was the woman he transformed into something good and clean and pure. Dawn brought out his dark side. But when Jan learned more about Dawn's backstory, it resonated with her.
Looking for a little direction, she gave school one last try. She started taking classes at her local community college. And sure enough... I loved it. So different than high school. It was at community college that she took her first psychology course. It was a turning point. Working in psychology would mean helping others. Plus, she found it interesting.
Looking for a little direction, she gave school one last try. She started taking classes at her local community college. And sure enough... I loved it. So different than high school. It was at community college that she took her first psychology course. It was a turning point. Working in psychology would mean helping others. Plus, she found it interesting.
Jan learned of at least four other women he supported financially. Jan herself had been that young woman with a lot of potential and no direction to go in. When she met Alan, her life changed too.
Jan learned of at least four other women he supported financially. Jan herself had been that young woman with a lot of potential and no direction to go in. When she met Alan, her life changed too.
And now, for the first time, she saw their relationship through his eyes.
And now, for the first time, she saw their relationship through his eyes.
It's a strange feeling, especially considering that Alan helped her achieve so many dreams.
It's a strange feeling, especially considering that Alan helped her achieve so many dreams.
The very things she loved about Alan were the ones that destroyed him and destroyed her life. John Fry was eventually convicted of murder and the mutilation of a body. He served the rest of his life in prison. John served 10 months plus three years probation for her role in the crime. As for Jan, she wanted to get out of Detroit.
The very things she loved about Alan were the ones that destroyed him and destroyed her life. John Fry was eventually convicted of murder and the mutilation of a body. He served the rest of his life in prison. John served 10 months plus three years probation for her role in the crime. As for Jan, she wanted to get out of Detroit.
She's lived many lives since that time. She's taught and practiced psychology, traveled the world, gotten remarried. Still, she couldn't leave what happened with Alan behind completely. She continued to think about the man he'd been as both a victim and a perpetrator.
She's lived many lives since that time. She's taught and practiced psychology, traveled the world, gotten remarried. Still, she couldn't leave what happened with Alan behind completely. She continued to think about the man he'd been as both a victim and a perpetrator.
Dealing with this complicated grief and trauma made it hard for Jan to connect with people. Who could possibly understand what she'd gone through? But eventually, she found community in other homicide survivors.
Dealing with this complicated grief and trauma made it hard for Jan to connect with people. Who could possibly understand what she'd gone through? But eventually, she found community in other homicide survivors.
Knowing people who shared even parts of her own experience gave her a deep sense of belonging.
Knowing people who shared even parts of her own experience gave her a deep sense of belonging.
Supporting and advocating for homicide survivors has become Jan's mission in life. We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
Supporting and advocating for homicide survivors has become Jan's mission in life. We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
As she began her studies, she was eager to start a life on her own. So she moved downtown and rented the cheapest place she could find.
As she began her studies, she was eager to start a life on her own. So she moved downtown and rented the cheapest place she could find.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Still, as cheap as it was, if she was going to continue to live there, she needed a job. A friend told her about a psychologist who was hiring. He needed help typing up a manuscript. This was right up Jan's alley, so she applied. And soon, she got a call asking for an interview.
Still, as cheap as it was, if she was going to continue to live there, she needed a job. A friend told her about a psychologist who was hiring. He needed help typing up a manuscript. This was right up Jan's alley, so she applied. And soon, she got a call asking for an interview.
She went inside and immediately felt like a fish out of water.
She went inside and immediately felt like a fish out of water.
But as she got off the elevator, her nerves faded.
But as she got off the elevator, her nerves faded.
The psychologist's name was Alan Canty. Jan had been expecting a man who matched the building. Someone intimidating, formal, classy. Alan was anything but.
The psychologist's name was Alan Canty. Jan had been expecting a man who matched the building. Someone intimidating, formal, classy. Alan was anything but.
The two of them hit it off. 20 minutes into the interview, Allen offered her the job. But before she left, she had a favor to ask.
The two of them hit it off. 20 minutes into the interview, Allen offered her the job. But before she left, she had a favor to ask.
Jan explained that she wasn't able to pay the exit fee for the parking lot. Alan just smiled.
Jan explained that she wasn't able to pay the exit fee for the parking lot. Alan just smiled.
In the beginning, Jan and Alan's relationship was strictly professional. After all, he was 18 years older than her, well-educated. He came from a wealthy family. To Jan, Alan was elite and accomplished. He was someone to look up to.
In the beginning, Jan and Alan's relationship was strictly professional. After all, he was 18 years older than her, well-educated. He came from a wealthy family. To Jan, Alan was elite and accomplished. He was someone to look up to.
And I would talk about classes and what I was learning. He wanted to give her advice to be a mentor.
And I would talk about classes and what I was learning. He wanted to give her advice to be a mentor.
He encouraged her to transfer to a four-year university and get her bachelor's degree. And he helped her pay for college by promoting her to receptionist.
He encouraged her to transfer to a four-year university and get her bachelor's degree. And he helped her pay for college by promoting her to receptionist.
Alan started giving her rides home at the end of the day. He liked looking out for her and she liked being cared for. After a few months, Alan asked her out on a date. It didn't really come as a surprise. Jan knew they had chemistry. For their first date, Alan drove her somewhere she'd never been before. It looked like a rundown neighborhood, and it looked dangerous.
Alan started giving her rides home at the end of the day. He liked looking out for her and she liked being cared for. After a few months, Alan asked her out on a date. It didn't really come as a surprise. Jan knew they had chemistry. For their first date, Alan drove her somewhere she'd never been before. It looked like a rundown neighborhood, and it looked dangerous.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
As Alan pulled up to a house, Jan thought for a split second that she might have made a terrible mistake.
As Alan pulled up to a house, Jan thought for a split second that she might have made a terrible mistake.
It was a fancy restaurant, one of the nicest she'd ever been to. And it was hidden, almost like a speakeasy. When they stepped inside, the place was decorated with real oil paintings, chandeliers, candles, and even roaming musicians. Jan was wowed.
It was a fancy restaurant, one of the nicest she'd ever been to. And it was hidden, almost like a speakeasy. When they stepped inside, the place was decorated with real oil paintings, chandeliers, candles, and even roaming musicians. Jan was wowed.
They were enjoying each other's company. Alan wasn't a standout when it came to his looks or his charm. He was shy, awkward even. But Jan felt a real connection with him.
They were enjoying each other's company. Alan wasn't a standout when it came to his looks or his charm. He was shy, awkward even. But Jan felt a real connection with him.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Their attraction was rooted in conversation. Jan had never had a relationship like this before.
Their attraction was rooted in conversation. Jan had never had a relationship like this before.
And with Alan, she could. Here was someone on her level. They were spending all day together at work and then going on dates at night. Pretty soon, Jan could picture a real future with him.
And with Alan, she could. Here was someone on her level. They were spending all day together at work and then going on dates at night. Pretty soon, Jan could picture a real future with him.
They couldn't wait to be married. Just a year into dating, they had a tiny no-frills ceremony.
They couldn't wait to be married. Just a year into dating, they had a tiny no-frills ceremony.
In the early 80s, she started her master's in psychology at the University of Michigan.
In the early 80s, she started her master's in psychology at the University of Michigan.
During this time, Alan wanted to move into a bigger home in a more affluent neighborhood.
During this time, Alan wanted to move into a bigger home in a more affluent neighborhood.
And that's exactly what she did. Jan packed up her pillow, clock radio, and a suitcase of clothes. And she moved in with Alan.
And that's exactly what she did. Jan packed up her pillow, clock radio, and a suitcase of clothes. And she moved in with Alan.
The new home he'd bought for them was a Tudor Revival mansion in one of the most exclusive suburbs of Detroit.
The new home he'd bought for them was a Tudor Revival mansion in one of the most exclusive suburbs of Detroit.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When Jan agreed to move in with him, she only asked for one thing.
When Jan agreed to move in with him, she only asked for one thing.
In a little over a year, Alan helped transform Jan's life. Before she'd met him, she was broke, living in a run-down apartment, searching for direction. Now, she was on the path towards becoming a psychologist. And she had a beautiful home in a wealthy neighborhood. At the time, she was grateful. But looking back now, she sees it all a little differently.
In a little over a year, Alan helped transform Jan's life. Before she'd met him, she was broke, living in a run-down apartment, searching for direction. Now, she was on the path towards becoming a psychologist. And she had a beautiful home in a wealthy neighborhood. At the time, she was grateful. But looking back now, she sees it all a little differently.
Before long, his career began bumping up against their relationship.
Before long, his career began bumping up against their relationship.
Abby nicknamed him the Commander. It was a joke at first, but it stuck. Because Richard couldn't seem to escape his career.
Abby nicknamed him the Commander. It was a joke at first, but it stuck. Because Richard couldn't seem to escape his career.
This was jarring for Abby, and she demanded a reason why they were being followed. To her surprise, the commander began revealing some details about his career.
This was jarring for Abby, and she demanded a reason why they were being followed. To her surprise, the commander began revealing some details about his career.
He had been recruited to be the head doctor for prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. This was the mid-2000s, at the height of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The commander explained that there was intense infighting with personnel at Guantanamo. It had to do with classified information that wasn't being delivered up the chain. That's why he was being protected by men in black SUVs.
He had been recruited to be the head doctor for prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. This was the mid-2000s, at the height of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The commander explained that there was intense infighting with personnel at Guantanamo. It had to do with classified information that wasn't being delivered up the chain. That's why he was being protected by men in black SUVs.
Abby tried to play it down, to act casual. But this was a big disclosure.
Abby tried to play it down, to act casual. But this was a big disclosure.
I was just like, this is absurd. She wasn't even sure if she believed his story about the Secret Service. But then one day, his son called from California.
I was just like, this is absurd. She wasn't even sure if she believed his story about the Secret Service. But then one day, his son called from California.
Now Abby needed answers. What had really happened at Guantanamo?
Now Abby needed answers. What had really happened at Guantanamo?
Eventually, Richard confided in her.
Eventually, Richard confided in her.
This was 2008. At the time, the military claimed to be actively searching for bin Laden. So him being held at Guantanamo just didn't make sense.
This was 2008. At the time, the military claimed to be actively searching for bin Laden. So him being held at Guantanamo just didn't make sense.
Hey, it's Andrea Gunning. Our season of weekly stories is coming to an end, but don't worry, we'll be back soon with more episodes. So if you have a story of your own that you'd like to share on the podcast, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we want to do something new and exciting. This month, we're taking short creative essay submissions from listeners.
Hey, it's Andrea Gunning. Our season of weekly stories is coming to an end, but don't worry, we'll be back soon with more episodes. So if you have a story of your own that you'd like to share on the podcast, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we want to do something new and exciting. This month, we're taking short creative essay submissions from listeners.
Abby's new boyfriend, Richard, made some pretty surprising claims. Biggest of all, that Osama bin Laden was being held at Guantanamo and that he had treated bin Laden for medical issues. This was the early 2000s and bin Laden was one of the biggest fugitives on the planet. So Richard's story was hard to believe.
Abby's new boyfriend, Richard, made some pretty surprising claims. Biggest of all, that Osama bin Laden was being held at Guantanamo and that he had treated bin Laden for medical issues. This was the early 2000s and bin Laden was one of the biggest fugitives on the planet. So Richard's story was hard to believe.
The theme is resilience in the face of a devastating betrayal. We want to hear the story of how you healed scars and all. Here's the catch. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Okay, now on to the episode.
The theme is resilience in the face of a devastating betrayal. We want to hear the story of how you healed scars and all. Here's the catch. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Okay, now on to the episode.
But Abby knew for a fact that the commander worked in the Navy with a very high security clearance at that. She'd met some of his colleagues. So like a good journalist, she wanted to verify the commander's claim.
But Abby knew for a fact that the commander worked in the Navy with a very high security clearance at that. She'd met some of his colleagues. So like a good journalist, she wanted to verify the commander's claim.
So she started asking around, using vague details.
So she started asking around, using vague details.
She doubted the story but wasn't prepared to write it off entirely. Even if there was a remote possibility it could be true, it would be the biggest story in the world. And as someone who wanted to be a war reporter, that was undeniably enticing. She hit a dead end trying to fact-check the Bin Laden story. So instead, she decided to fact-check Richard. She started with one time when he said...
She doubted the story but wasn't prepared to write it off entirely. Even if there was a remote possibility it could be true, it would be the biggest story in the world. And as someone who wanted to be a war reporter, that was undeniably enticing. She hit a dead end trying to fact-check the Bin Laden story. So instead, she decided to fact-check Richard. She started with one time when he said...
If that checked out, Richard's other classified projects could exist as well. Abby realized she couldn't fact-check the Bin Laden story. And after Richard shared that, he never talked about it again. He wanted a relationship separate from work. After all, the rest of his life was pretty tame.
If that checked out, Richard's other classified projects could exist as well. Abby realized she couldn't fact-check the Bin Laden story. And after Richard shared that, he never talked about it again. He wanted a relationship separate from work. After all, the rest of his life was pretty tame.
So it just seems kind of normal. And he met her family. Abby introduced him to her mom. He was a Jewish doctor. What's not to like? As their lives began to merge, Abby was ready to bring up a big topic of her own. I wanted to adopt.
So it just seems kind of normal. And he met her family. Abby introduced him to her mom. He was a Jewish doctor. What's not to like? As their lives began to merge, Abby was ready to bring up a big topic of her own. I wanted to adopt.
That conversation brought their relationship to a new level. It was like an unspoken marriage proposal.
That conversation brought their relationship to a new level. It was like an unspoken marriage proposal.
After six months together, Richard officially proposed. She said yes. It's true, the ring was nothing extravagant, but they both knew they wanted to be together. And in keeping with their low-key attitude, Abby began planning for a small wedding, maybe the next year. They weren't in a rush.
After six months together, Richard officially proposed. She said yes. It's true, the ring was nothing extravagant, but they both knew they wanted to be together. And in keeping with their low-key attitude, Abby began planning for a small wedding, maybe the next year. They weren't in a rush.
They made plans to move in together in Washington, D.C.
They made plans to move in together in Washington, D.C.
The apartment was being paid for by the Navy, but even still, Abby didn't like the Watergate or DC.
The apartment was being paid for by the Navy, but even still, Abby didn't like the Watergate or DC.
It didn't help that the commander was always traveling for work.
It didn't help that the commander was always traveling for work.
And when he came home, he struggled to keep his eyes open. He's a drag.
And when he came home, he struggled to keep his eyes open. He's a drag.
She chalked it up to him being a bit older and traveling so much for work. But Abby still had her mindset on the future.
She chalked it up to him being a bit older and traveling so much for work. But Abby still had her mindset on the future.
As time went on, Richard wasn't so into the idea.
As time went on, Richard wasn't so into the idea.
He was changing. He wasn't the accommodating and doting man she'd met. That guy was rarely around. And one day...
He was changing. He wasn't the accommodating and doting man she'd met. That guy was rarely around. And one day...
Maybe he was stressed out with work or maybe he was having cold feet. Shortly after this conversation, Abby confided in her mom.
Maybe he was stressed out with work or maybe he was having cold feet. Shortly after this conversation, Abby confided in her mom.
Abby was defensive in the moment, but her mom's suspicion rubbed off on her.
Abby was defensive in the moment, but her mom's suspicion rubbed off on her.
One night at dinner with Abby's parents, the commander made a big show of complimenting a meal.
One night at dinner with Abby's parents, the commander made a big show of complimenting a meal.
They don't care. But as soon as they were alone, he told Abby the exact opposite.
They don't care. But as soon as they were alone, he told Abby the exact opposite.
That small lie about the Brussels sprouts broke something inside of Abby. It was proof that he felt the need to compulsively lie. She was disgusted with him, but she wasn't prepared to call off the wedding. That was until a few weeks later.
That small lie about the Brussels sprouts broke something inside of Abby. It was proof that he felt the need to compulsively lie. She was disgusted with him, but she wasn't prepared to call off the wedding. That was until a few weeks later.
Richard had told Abby that his kids knew and that they were happy about it.
Richard had told Abby that his kids knew and that they were happy about it.
And now she had proof of a very consequential lie.
And now she had proof of a very consequential lie.
That night, she called off the engagement and the timing turned out to be pretty convenient.
That night, she called off the engagement and the timing turned out to be pretty convenient.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
So Abby packed up and moved back to New York.
So Abby packed up and moved back to New York.
And I finished my degree. In the wake of the breakup, Abby second-guessed herself. I felt bad.
And I finished my degree. In the wake of the breakup, Abby second-guessed herself. I felt bad.
A few months after the breakup, she was in D.C. for school. And one night, she was in a cab driving by the Watergate.
A few months after the breakup, she was in D.C. for school. And one night, she was in a cab driving by the Watergate.
She told Richard she needed to get a few things she left behind. So he let her up.
She told Richard she needed to get a few things she left behind. So he let her up.
It wasn't just the cookbooks.
It wasn't just the cookbooks.
There was no way he moved out of the apartment and put a tiny, used-up sliver of soap back in the exact same place, stuck to the same bath tile.
There was no way he moved out of the apartment and put a tiny, used-up sliver of soap back in the exact same place, stuck to the same bath tile.
That's Abby Ellen. She's an independent journalist for outlets like The New York Times and Washington Post.
That's Abby Ellen. She's an independent journalist for outlets like The New York Times and Washington Post.
She knew he was a liar. But how big of a liar? She wouldn't find out for another year and a half.
She knew he was a liar. But how big of a liar? She wouldn't find out for another year and a half.
Storytelling comes naturally to her. Even as a kid.
Storytelling comes naturally to her. Even as a kid.
Abby hadn't talked to Richard in over a year. When a DC number cold-called her, she assumed it was him. But to her surprise, it was a special agent with NCIS, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.
Abby hadn't talked to Richard in over a year. When a DC number cold-called her, she assumed it was him. But to her surprise, it was a special agent with NCIS, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.
Abby's name had shown up on a list of falsified narcotics prescriptions. Scripts written by a Navy doctor named Richard.
Abby's name had shown up on a list of falsified narcotics prescriptions. Scripts written by a Navy doctor named Richard.
To say she's curious is an understatement. When she was in elementary school, Abby was on a children's show called Romper Room. It was popular in the 1970s. On the show, the host would hold up a magic mirror, and through it, she would pretend to see straight into living rooms across the country. She'd name dozens of children who were watching the show.
To say she's curious is an understatement. When she was in elementary school, Abby was on a children's show called Romper Room. It was popular in the 1970s. On the show, the host would hold up a magic mirror, and through it, she would pretend to see straight into living rooms across the country. She'd name dozens of children who were watching the show.
I mean. The phone call didn't upset Abby. In fact, she was excited because maybe she was finally going to get answers about Richard. I thought maybe this is the culmination. Everything's kind of coming to a head.
I mean. The phone call didn't upset Abby. In fact, she was excited because maybe she was finally going to get answers about Richard. I thought maybe this is the culmination. Everything's kind of coming to a head.
It turned out Richard wasn't working with special forces on secret missions. He was actually a Navy doctor working at the Pentagon.
It turned out Richard wasn't working with special forces on secret missions. He was actually a Navy doctor working at the Pentagon.
He forged hundreds of opioid prescriptions using the names of his co-workers and his family.
He forged hundreds of opioid prescriptions using the names of his co-workers and his family.
He'd been caught filling scripts at the Pentagon's pharmacy. It was a brazen scheme. What was he doing with all those painkillers?
He'd been caught filling scripts at the Pentagon's pharmacy. It was a brazen scheme. What was he doing with all those painkillers?
Presumably, Richard was taking the pills himself. At least, that's what he later claimed to a judge. Abby thought back to dinners with the commander, the ones where he was falling asleep at the table. In hindsight, that was her only clue that Richard could have been taking opioids. So, I kicked into journalist mode. She tracked down Richard's ex-wife and gave her a call.
Presumably, Richard was taking the pills himself. At least, that's what he later claimed to a judge. Abby thought back to dinners with the commander, the ones where he was falling asleep at the table. In hindsight, that was her only clue that Richard could have been taking opioids. So, I kicked into journalist mode. She tracked down Richard's ex-wife and gave her a call.
His ex-wife knew Richard had a girlfriend, but it wasn't Abby.
His ex-wife knew Richard had a girlfriend, but it wasn't Abby.
Abby would call one woman who told her about another. It was like a phone tree of Richard's ex-girlfriends. That's how she found a woman who'd been engaged to Richard. At the same time, Abby started dating him. And... Her name was Christine.
Abby would call one woman who told her about another. It was like a phone tree of Richard's ex-girlfriends. That's how she found a woman who'd been engaged to Richard. At the same time, Abby started dating him. And... Her name was Christine.
Christine never knew why Richard disappeared. Abby had the other half of the story.
Christine never knew why Richard disappeared. Abby had the other half of the story.
But Richard's romantic con took an even darker turn. The last woman he'd been seeing was named Gail. Richard had been her college boyfriend. When Gail was diagnosed with breast cancer in her 60s, he reappeared.
But Richard's romantic con took an even darker turn. The last woman he'd been seeing was named Gail. Richard had been her college boyfriend. When Gail was diagnosed with breast cancer in her 60s, he reappeared.
He swept Gail off her feet. He even claimed he could help her beat cancer. After all, he was a doctor.
He swept Gail off her feet. He even claimed he could help her beat cancer. After all, he was a doctor.
Gail was the last woman Richard conned before he got caught.
Gail was the last woman Richard conned before he got caught.
When NCIS informed Gail about the fraudulent prescriptions in her name, she was so angry she flipped on Richard immediately.
When NCIS informed Gail about the fraudulent prescriptions in her name, she was so angry she flipped on Richard immediately.
Kids at home thought she was talking directly to them through the mirror. As a kid, Abby knew the magic mirror was faked. And when she was on the show, she was determined to figure out how.
Kids at home thought she was talking directly to them through the mirror. As a kid, Abby knew the magic mirror was faked. And when she was on the show, she was determined to figure out how.
Gail passed away shortly after that. Her story is the one Abby still thinks about. If there is a hero here, she says it's Gail. Richard ultimately pled guilty to two felony charges of prescription fraud. In his sentencing hearing, he told a judge that he'd become addicted while he struggled to cope with his girlfriend's terminal cancer diagnosis.
Gail passed away shortly after that. Her story is the one Abby still thinks about. If there is a hero here, she says it's Gail. Richard ultimately pled guilty to two felony charges of prescription fraud. In his sentencing hearing, he told a judge that he'd become addicted while he struggled to cope with his girlfriend's terminal cancer diagnosis.
Between that and his history of military service, the judge went easy on him.
Between that and his history of military service, the judge went easy on him.
After Abby found out about Richard's crimes, she began parsing out every lie he ever told her. Bin Laden, Richard never treated him at Guantanamo. The Secret Service wasn't following him or his kids. He had never been a Navy SEAL because Abby found a Navy SEAL impersonation expert who checked military records and confirmed it. And those screaming nightmares Richard had?
After Abby found out about Richard's crimes, she began parsing out every lie he ever told her. Bin Laden, Richard never treated him at Guantanamo. The Secret Service wasn't following him or his kids. He had never been a Navy SEAL because Abby found a Navy SEAL impersonation expert who checked military records and confirmed it. And those screaming nightmares Richard had?
Well, the SEAL expert said fake nightmares are a common feature of con artists like Richard. Abby had been duped.
Well, the SEAL expert said fake nightmares are a common feature of con artists like Richard. Abby had been duped.
Thank you. She titled her book Duped. Once she got started on it, she realized it was about much more than just her own experience. It was about the experience of being lied to.
Thank you. She titled her book Duped. Once she got started on it, she realized it was about much more than just her own experience. It was about the experience of being lied to.
So that was my book. Abby never blamed herself for believing Richard's lies. You know... What's the worst thing you did?
So that was my book. Abby never blamed herself for believing Richard's lies. You know... What's the worst thing you did?
Working on her book, she researched experts on deception, like Dr. Jennifer Fried, who coined the term betrayal blindness.
Working on her book, she researched experts on deception, like Dr. Jennifer Fried, who coined the term betrayal blindness.
And she even explored the stigma around being deceived, that feeling of self-blame and stupidity when we've been lied to.
And she even explored the stigma around being deceived, that feeling of self-blame and stupidity when we've been lied to.
Abby turned Richard's betrayal into a story, a story for herself and for the world.
Abby turned Richard's betrayal into a story, a story for herself and for the world.
Instead of covering international relations, today she mostly reports on fraud. I think it's fair to say that it changed the trajectory of my career.
Instead of covering international relations, today she mostly reports on fraud. I think it's fair to say that it changed the trajectory of my career.
And thanks to her experience with Richard, she's learned a few things about herself.
And thanks to her experience with Richard, she's learned a few things about herself.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why are you sharing your story?
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why are you sharing your story?
And I was like, see, I got to the truth. Fifty years later, she's still that same person.
And I was like, see, I got to the truth. Fifty years later, she's still that same person.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
That dogged curiosity has motivated Abby's work for decades. When she first started her journalism career in New York City... I could have gotten a job like in The Devil Wears Prada.
That dogged curiosity has motivated Abby's work for decades. When she first started her journalism career in New York City... I could have gotten a job like in The Devil Wears Prada.
Instead, she got her start writing for women's magazines. It was the 90s, when magazines still ruled the media landscape. And Abby had to start at the bottom of the ladder. The women's magazines had you do, like, quizzes.
Instead, she got her start writing for women's magazines. It was the 90s, when magazines still ruled the media landscape. And Abby had to start at the bottom of the ladder. The women's magazines had you do, like, quizzes.
She wanted something more hard-hitting. So she started cold-pitching stories to the New York Times. And she finally got a story accepted. It was an expose on simulated military boot camps for civilians.
She wanted something more hard-hitting. So she started cold-pitching stories to the New York Times. And she finally got a story accepted. It was an expose on simulated military boot camps for civilians.
He wanted Abby to write for it. So for the next five years, she wrote a column about young people and money for the business section of The New York Times. She was in her late 20s. The stars were aligning for her career and she was building a life for herself.
He wanted Abby to write for it. So for the next five years, she wrote a column about young people and money for the business section of The New York Times. She was in her late 20s. The stars were aligning for her career and she was building a life for herself.
On her mother's advice, Abby bought her first apartment. It was a loft in New York City. She had everything she wanted. Even dating came easily for Abby. Oh God, men were everywhere. Men were everywhere. In her 20s, her relationships usually ended because he was more into her than she was into him.
On her mother's advice, Abby bought her first apartment. It was a loft in New York City. She had everything she wanted. Even dating came easily for Abby. Oh God, men were everywhere. Men were everywhere. In her 20s, her relationships usually ended because he was more into her than she was into him.
In her 30s, she dated more seriously. But none of the guys were quite right.
In her 30s, she dated more seriously. But none of the guys were quite right.
I wanted something that mattered. Abby had traveled the world, reported for prestigious publications, and made friends in every corner of the city. But there was one thing she still hadn't experienced. Again, I didn't care if I got married, but I wanted to be madly in love. She wanted to be madly in love. By the time she was 40, she started looking for love in new places.
I wanted something that mattered. Abby had traveled the world, reported for prestigious publications, and made friends in every corner of the city. But there was one thing she still hadn't experienced. Again, I didn't care if I got married, but I wanted to be madly in love. She wanted to be madly in love. By the time she was 40, she started looking for love in new places.
After a string of relationships with struggling artists, she thought she'd try something more traditional. First, she went with the conservative Wall Street type. Then she thought... I'm Jewish.
After a string of relationships with struggling artists, she thought she'd try something more traditional. First, she went with the conservative Wall Street type. Then she thought... I'm Jewish.
On a lark, her friend recommended a psychic. Apparently, she had great insights on love.
On a lark, her friend recommended a psychic. Apparently, she had great insights on love.
But Carmela saw something in Abby's future. A man.
But Carmela saw something in Abby's future. A man.
Around the same time, Abby was working on a piece for The Times.
Around the same time, Abby was working on a piece for The Times.
This Beverly Hills doctor gave Abby a great quote for her article. We're going to call him Richard.
This Beverly Hills doctor gave Abby a great quote for her article. We're going to call him Richard.
A few months later, she had to call Richard again to fact check the article.
A few months later, she had to call Richard again to fact check the article.
Richard had been a Navy SEAL in his 20s, then left to go to medical school. After decades of private medical practice, he rejoined the Navy to work on special projects.
Richard had been a Navy SEAL in his 20s, then left to go to medical school. After decades of private medical practice, he rejoined the Navy to work on special projects.
At the time, Abby wanted a new beat. She wanted to report on international relations. I was looking to do something different to expand my career.
At the time, Abby wanted a new beat. She wanted to report on international relations. I was looking to do something different to expand my career.
Richard was a good source, someone who might have stories and connections she would need.
Richard was a good source, someone who might have stories and connections she would need.
At first, it was regular updates about his job in the Middle East. And then we began talking more and more. They started writing to each other every day, and she learned more about Richard's personal life.
At first, it was regular updates about his job in the Middle East. And then we began talking more and more. They started writing to each other every day, and she learned more about Richard's personal life.
Abby had just been accepted to an international relations master's program. It was in Washington, D.C., where Richard was headed next. By this point, their conversations veered into flirtations. So when they found out they were both moving to the same city...
Abby had just been accepted to an international relations master's program. It was in Washington, D.C., where Richard was headed next. By this point, their conversations veered into flirtations. So when they found out they were both moving to the same city...
Their flirtation expanded into late night phone calls and surprise deliveries.
Their flirtation expanded into late night phone calls and surprise deliveries.
Richard was mature and accomplished. He was a doctor. Maybe this was the guy she'd been waiting for.
Richard was mature and accomplished. He was a doctor. Maybe this was the guy she'd been waiting for.
After months of talking, Abby emailed him a poem. So I thought, all right, I can woo. I'm going to send it to him. She knew this poem was his favorite.
After months of talking, Abby emailed him a poem. So I thought, all right, I can woo. I'm going to send it to him. She knew this poem was his favorite.
She'd only been talking to Richard for a few months. But when she got his reply, she smiled. Richard was scheduled to be in New York the following month. Abby hadn't started school yet and was still in town. So they decided to meet in person for the first time.
She'd only been talking to Richard for a few months. But when she got his reply, she smiled. Richard was scheduled to be in New York the following month. Abby hadn't started school yet and was still in town. So they decided to meet in person for the first time.
He made a reservation for them at the Four Seasons restaurant. It's now closed. But in the early 2000s, it was one of the most glamorous date spots in New York.
He made a reservation for them at the Four Seasons restaurant. It's now closed. But in the early 2000s, it was one of the most glamorous date spots in New York.
On the night of their date, Richard met her in the lobby, wearing his white Navy officer uniform. As he walked towards her, she realized... This was the man in uniform, the one the psychic had foreseen. Richard even brought her a gift.
On the night of their date, Richard met her in the lobby, wearing his white Navy officer uniform. As he walked towards her, she realized... This was the man in uniform, the one the psychic had foreseen. Richard even brought her a gift.
They walked into dinner hand in hand, Abby wearing his white navy cap. And at dinner...
They walked into dinner hand in hand, Abby wearing his white navy cap. And at dinner...
That was the beginning of Richard's regular visits to New York to take Abby out on romantic dates.
That was the beginning of Richard's regular visits to New York to take Abby out on romantic dates.
When he met Abby's friends, he impressed them too.
When he met Abby's friends, he impressed them too.
Richard had two kids by his first wife. And even though he lived apart from them, he was still a family man.
Richard had two kids by his first wife. And even though he lived apart from them, he was still a family man.
And then there was his illustrious military career. He was constantly traveling for work.
And then there was his illustrious military career. He was constantly traveling for work.
Abby was the kid who needed to know how the magic mirror worked. And now with Richard, she wanted to know about his classified military projects.
Abby was the kid who needed to know how the magic mirror worked. And now with Richard, she wanted to know about his classified military projects.
Her intrigue turned to concern when Richard began having horrible nightmares. He would just have these screaming nightmares. And so he had to sleep with the lights on and the TV on. When she asked, he brushed it off. All he would say is that he had bad memories, things from the military that he couldn't talk about.
Her intrigue turned to concern when Richard began having horrible nightmares. He would just have these screaming nightmares. And so he had to sleep with the lights on and the TV on. When she asked, he brushed it off. All he would say is that he had bad memories, things from the military that he couldn't talk about.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
This is where Jessica Baum jumped in to offer her expertise.
This is where Jessica Baum jumped in to offer her expertise.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
We're having a conversation with a listener named Elizabeth. Her best friend is stuck in a state of denial, trying to repair with a husband who sexually abused her daughter. Watching her friend Sarah make this decision is excruciating, because for her, it's bigger than their friendship. It's about Sarah's 19-year-old daughter. Elizabeth watched Sarah's daughter grow up and helped care for her.
We're having a conversation with a listener named Elizabeth. Her best friend is stuck in a state of denial, trying to repair with a husband who sexually abused her daughter. Watching her friend Sarah make this decision is excruciating, because for her, it's bigger than their friendship. It's about Sarah's 19-year-old daughter. Elizabeth watched Sarah's daughter grow up and helped care for her.
They're like family. Here's Elizabeth.
They're like family. Here's Elizabeth.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode of Betrayal. A few months ago, we got an email from a listener that stood out to our team. We're going to call this listener Elizabeth. She had watched season two of Betrayal on Hulu, which tells the story of a stepdaughter that was violated by her stepfather.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode of Betrayal. A few months ago, we got an email from a listener that stood out to our team. We're going to call this listener Elizabeth. She had watched season two of Betrayal on Hulu, which tells the story of a stepdaughter that was violated by her stepfather.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Elizabeth wrote to us because the same thing was playing out in her own life, or rather, in her best friend's life. Elizabeth and her friend, we'll call her Sarah, have been close for 13 years. They used to live in the same apartment building. Their daughters were around the same age. Sarah was raising her daughter with her new husband, who became her stepdad, the only father her daughter knew.
Elizabeth wrote to us because the same thing was playing out in her own life, or rather, in her best friend's life. Elizabeth and her friend, we'll call her Sarah, have been close for 13 years. They used to live in the same apartment building. Their daughters were around the same age. Sarah was raising her daughter with her new husband, who became her stepdad, the only father her daughter knew.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Our listener Elizabeth has been taking this all in. And through the conversation, she realized that it's not just about what she should say to her friend. It's about her own experience of watching Sarah make this choice. For Elizabeth, that might be a decision she can't overlook.
Our listener Elizabeth has been taking this all in. And through the conversation, she realized that it's not just about what she should say to her friend. It's about her own experience of watching Sarah make this choice. For Elizabeth, that might be a decision she can't overlook.
Elizabeth and Sarah's families became close. They planned joint family vacations and shared holidays. Elizabeth felt like an aunt to Sarah's daughter, who is now 19. A few months ago, Sarah texted Elizabeth, saying she needed to talk. It was an emergency.
Elizabeth and Sarah's families became close. They planned joint family vacations and shared holidays. Elizabeth felt like an aunt to Sarah's daughter, who is now 19. A few months ago, Sarah texted Elizabeth, saying she needed to talk. It was an emergency.
Conversations like this can be triggering. They incite judgment and anger. We felt it as we produced this episode. But like Elizabeth said, she's not the only one. We just hope this episode finds the people who need to hear it. I want to give a special thanks to Jessica Baum, Ashley Trujillo and our anonymous listener, Elizabeth.
Conversations like this can be triggering. They incite judgment and anger. We felt it as we produced this episode. But like Elizabeth said, she's not the only one. We just hope this episode finds the people who need to hear it. I want to give a special thanks to Jessica Baum, Ashley Trujillo and our anonymous listener, Elizabeth.
If you're interested in learning more about attachments, we recommend Jessica Baum's book, Anxiously Attached, becoming more secure in life and love. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support.
If you're interested in learning more about attachments, we recommend Jessica Baum's book, Anxiously Attached, becoming more secure in life and love. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support.
One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
After Sarah found out, she confronted her husband. And he admitted to everything.
After Sarah found out, she confronted her husband. And he admitted to everything.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Sarah went with her daughter to report the crime. And a few months later, her husband was charged with multiple counts of child abuse. He got out on bond and is awaiting his court date. But that's just the beginning of our episode because Sarah struggled to let her husband go.
Sarah went with her daughter to report the crime. And a few months later, her husband was charged with multiple counts of child abuse. He got out on bond and is awaiting his court date. But that's just the beginning of our episode because Sarah struggled to let her husband go.
When Sarah first found out, she cut off communication with her husband. She ignored his texts, begging for forgiveness. But when he texted about everyday things, like chores and bills, she would engage. That progressed into longer phone conversations and visits. Then they started going to therapy together.
When Sarah first found out, she cut off communication with her husband. She ignored his texts, begging for forgiveness. But when he texted about everyday things, like chores and bills, she would engage. That progressed into longer phone conversations and visits. Then they started going to therapy together.
Within a few weeks of the police report, Sarah's husband was back at home, sleeping in their bed. The night it happened, Sarah's daughter left the house. She went to stay with her grandparents. You may be wondering, what about Child Protective Services? Well, Sarah's daughter is 19 now, an adult. So legally, her stepdad was allowed back in the same house.
Within a few weeks of the police report, Sarah's husband was back at home, sleeping in their bed. The night it happened, Sarah's daughter left the house. She went to stay with her grandparents. You may be wondering, what about Child Protective Services? Well, Sarah's daughter is 19 now, an adult. So legally, her stepdad was allowed back in the same house.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
In the absence of a protective order, there was nothing law enforcement could do. There's limited interventions for adults in this situation. For Elizabeth, her friend's decision was unimaginable. It was so unlike Sarah, and it just seemed wrong.
In the absence of a protective order, there was nothing law enforcement could do. There's limited interventions for adults in this situation. For Elizabeth, her friend's decision was unimaginable. It was so unlike Sarah, and it just seemed wrong.
This is what Elizabeth wrote to us. She felt helpless watching her best friend let this man back into her life. She worried that saying too much might blow up the friendship and further isolate Sarah from the people who love her. But more than anything, she wanted to get through to Sarah because Elizabeth felt as though her friend was choosing her own attachments and needs over her daughter.
This is what Elizabeth wrote to us. She felt helpless watching her best friend let this man back into her life. She worried that saying too much might blow up the friendship and further isolate Sarah from the people who love her. But more than anything, she wanted to get through to Sarah because Elizabeth felt as though her friend was choosing her own attachments and needs over her daughter.
And Elizabeth felt like that was the wrong choice. Our team has heard countless stories like this, to the point where we couldn't ignore this topic. Where loved ones watch from afar as someone lets an abuser back into their life. It's an incredibly painful thing to watch. People can draw boundaries that end relationships. It's something we can all relate to on some level.
And Elizabeth felt like that was the wrong choice. Our team has heard countless stories like this, to the point where we couldn't ignore this topic. Where loved ones watch from afar as someone lets an abuser back into their life. It's an incredibly painful thing to watch. People can draw boundaries that end relationships. It's something we can all relate to on some level.
That's why we wanted to have this conversation. We saw Elizabeth's question as a way into a larger discussion about the role of loved ones in these cases. What can we say when someone isn't ready to end their relationship with an abuser? Elizabeth asked for advice from Ashley Trujillo, the subject of season two of Betrayal. Ashley has been through something similar to Sarah.
That's why we wanted to have this conversation. We saw Elizabeth's question as a way into a larger discussion about the role of loved ones in these cases. What can we say when someone isn't ready to end their relationship with an abuser? Elizabeth asked for advice from Ashley Trujillo, the subject of season two of Betrayal. Ashley has been through something similar to Sarah.
Her husband, Jason, was arrested for possession of child sexual abuse material. Among the material in his stash were images of Avea, images he'd taken in secret. However, he had not been hands-on. And while Jason awaited sentencing, Ashley tried to salvage the relationship. She went straight into wifey mode, as she calls it.
Her husband, Jason, was arrested for possession of child sexual abuse material. Among the material in his stash were images of Avea, images he'd taken in secret. However, he had not been hands-on. And while Jason awaited sentencing, Ashley tried to salvage the relationship. She went straight into wifey mode, as she calls it.
It wasn't until she saw the full discovery file against Jason that she finally decided to leave him. But those few months Ashley stayed with him have had lasting impacts on her relationship with her daughter. So we invited Ashley Trujillo to talk with Elizabeth, and she agreed. We also brought in Jessica Baum, a licensed clinical therapist, to help guide the conversation.
It wasn't until she saw the full discovery file against Jason that she finally decided to leave him. But those few months Ashley stayed with him have had lasting impacts on her relationship with her daughter. So we invited Ashley Trujillo to talk with Elizabeth, and she agreed. We also brought in Jessica Baum, a licensed clinical therapist, to help guide the conversation.
Jess worked closely with Ashley during Season 2 of Betrayal. You'll hear more from Jess as the conversation unfolds. But let's start with Elizabeth and Ashley.
Jess worked closely with Ashley during Season 2 of Betrayal. You'll hear more from Jess as the conversation unfolds. But let's start with Elizabeth and Ashley.
If you've heard season two, you'll know that eventually the glass shattered for Ashley. She finally saw Jason for who he was and the danger he possessed. Ashley's been repairing her relationship with her daughter ever since. She can understand Sarah's pain and why Elizabeth is desperate for Sarah to have that glass shatter moment. Second thing I wanted to say is how wonderful of a friend you are.
If you've heard season two, you'll know that eventually the glass shattered for Ashley. She finally saw Jason for who he was and the danger he possessed. Ashley's been repairing her relationship with her daughter ever since. She can understand Sarah's pain and why Elizabeth is desperate for Sarah to have that glass shatter moment. Second thing I wanted to say is how wonderful of a friend you are.
One of my favorite true crime podcasts has just been turned into a docuseries. Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. Right now, you can watch the Burden of Guilt docuseries on Paramount+. Here's a sneak peek of what you're going to see during this three-part series.
One of my favorite true crime podcasts has just been turned into a docuseries. Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. Right now, you can watch the Burden of Guilt docuseries on Paramount+. Here's a sneak peek of what you're going to see during this three-part series.
You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.
You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.
I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.
I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.
I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.
I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.
You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.
You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.
This woman had come to regret her actions and confessed to her husband. She gave her husband access to her computer and all her passwords. She was remorseful about the encounter and took responsibility for her part in it. The woman fully disclosed her actions to her husband and agreed to accompany him to Joel's house. However, as you heard, things didn't go as planned.
They, of course, reported him. The woman's story was credible, and when police searched Joel's phone and computer, they found evidence supporting her story. And then they identified another woman Joel had met up with. He planned this one on his work phone. But it seemed like he forgot to delete a few messages from the exchange. This woman had also met Joel on FetLife.
Although she was cooperative, she seemed less eager to discuss the encounter. An internal affairs sergeant contacted her by phone.
The woman and Joel had talked and texted for several weeks. He had attended a work conference in Denver. After talking online and on the phone, there was an opening to meet up on the way back from the conference. They met in the parking lot of a sporting goods store. But here was the information Internal Affairs was really after.
Had Joel used his police car to have sex with her, and was it while he was on duty?
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hey guys, before we dive into the episode, we have exciting news. Betrayal is coming to Substack, which is an online community. We're calling our Substack Beyond Betrayal, a place where we dive deeper into the stories you hear on this show.
Despite Joel's adamant denials, it appeared he had, in fact, had sex in his police vehicle during work hours. CSPD conducted a full investigation. Internal Affairs even ordered a forensic analysis of the car's interior. They determined that the complaint was true. Joel had been having sex with women in his police car, in public, on company time.
On April 11th, Joel was summoned to a meeting with his commander, and you'll hear that meeting in a later episode. And it was on that day that he could no longer hide the investigation from Caroline and their kids. In the early evening on April 11th, 2022, Joel was home with his family. Caroline and Nicole sat huddled together on the living room sofa. There were tears, accusations, and grief.
Their son was on speakerphone from college, alternating between anguish and disgust.
He was only admitting to what the CSPD had already uncovered. Meanwhile, he told his family a tearful story about what happened.
Please consider joining our community to gain access to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to betrayal.substack, that's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K, or just go to substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe.
Joel insisted that he only had been unfaithful with two people. But Caroline wasn't naive. She knew there had to be more.
With Caroline's words still hanging in the air, Joel dropped another bombshell. Back in episode one, we learned he'd been tapped for one of the department's most sought-after roles, the public information officer. He'd be the face of the department, the media liaison, the voice. He'd already done the job temporarily. Then, out of nowhere, the offer vanished.
But that had been a lie. There hadn't been an issue with the chief. The issue had been with Joel.
While Joel served as temporary public information officer in 2016, he asked female reporters to use an encrypted app to communicate with him. And what he said there unnerved the reporters. When one reporter heard Joel Kern was going to be appointed the permanent public information officer in 2019, she was alarmed and wrote a letter. Here's how it began.
To the Colorado Springs Police Department, I'm writing to voice my concerns about naming Lieutenant Joel Kern the next PIO. To accuse anyone of inappropriate behavior is a risk. But to accuse an officer, especially one that controls which media members get information and how fast, could be career suicide. But that is what most emboldened me to voice my concerns now.
This letter led to Joel Kern's first internal affairs investigation for sexually harassing female news reporters. The CSPB started by interviewing the reporter that wrote the letter.
Internal affairs asked the reporter about the app Joel asked her to download.
The reporter knew of other women who felt the same way, but they either decided it was too risky to complain or felt it didn't rise to the level of needing to report. So without any other complaints, the investigation was relatively thin, and it looked like Joel was going to talk his way out of this one. We actually received the recording of Joel doing exactly that.
Oshetsky asked Joel to explain why he had urged reporters to download WhatsApp, an encrypted app that his supervisors couldn't monitor. This was a violation of department rules and Joel knew it.
At first, Joel said it was for security. But the IA officer wasn't buying that.
Right as the conversation gets to the heart of the issue, his abuse of power, Joel pivots. He wells up with tears and changes the subject to what he's been going through recently.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 2. cat and mouse. In the last episode, we met Caroline Berega and learned about her husband, former Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Joel Kern. On the outside, they were the perfect American family. Then on April 11, 2022, Joel detonated a bomb on his life, a bomb that would destroy his family.
Caroline had no idea her marriage was in a bad place in 2019. If you remember from episode one, Caroline shared Joel had a few breakdowns and ultimately started therapy. He had mentioned witnessing the carnage from fatal accident scenes and his fear about their kids starting to drive. But she'd been there for him, and they worked through it as a couple.
As the interview continued, Joel read the room. He realized his best strategy would be to fall on the sword.
Joel had been on the record pleading for mercy three years before his official suspension, which was on April 11th, 2022. And on April 11th, the truth was finally being laid bare in their living room. Caroline and their daughter were on the couch, and their son was on speakerphone. They listened to Joel confess that he'd been lying and covering his tracks for years.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Caroline's entire world had come apart in a single afternoon. Immediately, she reached out to a close friend who would soon take on a greater role in her life.
Dawn was a good friend to both Caroline and Joel.
Dawn normally made it policy not to represent her friends in a divorce, but she made an exception this time. Not so much for Caroline, but for the kids.
April 11th is now called D-Day by Caroline and her kids. Here's Caroline and Joel's daughter, Nicole.
The kids had to find a way to keep going. Their son wanted to come home from college, but Caroline wouldn't allow it.
As for Caroline, she was on autopilot. Her friends came to her with some unsettling but important advice.
Caroline had asked Joel repeatedly, what else? What else have you done? She didn't want any more surprises. There had to be more than just two affairs. And this experience was confirmation that our instincts were dead on.
Nicole was at school when she noticed Caroline's location on their Family Life 360 app.
Nicole grabbed Joel's computer and started looking through it, logging onto various websites and reading his emails and text messages. They were there for the truth. All those long nights on duty, what else had Joel been up to? How far did his misconduct go?
Nicole dialed in her older brother. She wanted him to hear everything. So it became the next family meeting. And then Nicole started recording on her phone. She wanted documentation. She and her mom were running on adrenaline.
Memorial Park was where Joel met the first woman to have sex in his cop car. At first, he denied he was working when they met up.
Everyone thought Joel was one of the good ones. An honorable cop. They had sacrificed so much for his career. She didn't recognize this man. In fact, she didn't recognize her life at all. Her life was now split into two. Two realities running parallel tracks. There were her memories. And then, there was everything Joel was doing behind her back. All of those late nights. The missed sports games.
Did something happen? And then I said, is daddy okay? Caroline was at a loss for words. They all lived with the fear that one day, Joel wouldn't come home from work. But Joel wasn't injured or killed in the line of duty. Still, nothing was okay. Caroline and Joel's son was a freshman in college, far from home.
The holidays. Where was he? Her brain never went there. She didn't know what was real anymore. It was a sad and terrifying feeling.
So was this finally the full picture? Were all of Joel's secrets out in the open? No, not even close. Here's Caroline and Joel's son.
On the next episode of Betrayal, Caroline comes to the realization that Joel has been gaslighting her for years.
And more revelations about his double life are exposed. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates.
One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. And special thanks to Caroline and her family.
Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
The family met in the living room. Nicole and Caroline sat on the couch. Caroline and Joel's son was on speakerphone, and Joel stood in front of the fireplace. It was the most bizarre family meeting you could imagine. It felt like someone else's life. But no, it was happening in their home.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
What was going on? Well, to understand the events of April 11, 2022, we need to go back a few months prior, to February 5th. That day, a stranger showed up on Caroline and Joel's doorstep. Joel was home and answered the door. The whole interaction happened to be recorded. The sound isn't great, but you'll get the gist of it. And we've distorted the stranger's voice to protect his privacy.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
And with that, the couple took off and Joel was left alone to contemplate what just happened. This man managed to find his house and came right to his front door. Caroline had been out on a run and missed the whole confrontation by minutes. But Joel wasn't home alone. Nicole was in the basement, just doing her homework.
Joel carried on as if nothing happened. In fact, later that night, Joel and Caroline went to a party. He also never mentioned the confrontation to his family.
Okay. Caroline laughed it off in the moment. Looking back now, she sees that Joel's mind was somewhere else that night. But there was bad news for Joel. The stranger who came to his door made another stop that day. After he pulled out of Joel's driveway, he and his wife drove straight to the Colorado Springs Police Department, or CSPD, and filed an official complaint against Joel.
After all, an officer having sex in his police car while on duty would be a major professional violation. We filed an open records request so we could get those investigation records. Over the past year, we received hundreds of pages from CSPD, all relating to Joel Kern. We were also given actual audio recordings from the investigation. What you're about to hear is from one of those recordings.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
It's Joel's boss, Commander Strassner, being interviewed by Internal Affairs about Joel's alleged misconduct.
Strassner was one of the first people Joel went to when he heard about the complaint.
But was his rage really directed at the couple for making the complaint? Or was it directed at the Internal Affairs Department for taking the complaint seriously? Joel was an experienced, respected police lieutenant. This investigation threatened to take all that away.
A preliminary inquiry is like an initial check to see if there's any valid reason to suspect that the officer has done something wrong. Internal affairs can then decide to move forward with the investigation or close the matter.
Let's be clear, what the complaint was alleging was no ordinary affair. They were claiming police misconduct, an officer abusing his badge, having sex in a taxpayer-funded vehicle, on the public's time, and in public. Remember, Joel had worked in internal affairs years earlier. He understood how it operated. Ironically, he had worked in the department with Commander Strassner.
But Strassner also gave Joel some reassurance.
Strassner could tell that Joel was distraught. This was a serious matter. Someone could be filing a false report or impersonating him. Strassner assured Joel that if someone was victimizing him, they would be held accountable. To complete the investigation, the CSPD took Joel's police vehicle and his department-issued phone.
This was recorded in February 2022. The investigation into Joel had been going on for two months. Two months where he knew his life was on the brink of collapse. Meanwhile, Caroline was completely in the dark. Joel didn't tell her about the man on their doorstep or the misconduct investigation.
It seemed like Joel thought that with his rank and years of service, he would be able to talk his way out of this. But the CSPD was taking it seriously. They went ahead and looked for any evidence that would support the couple's claim. And that included interviewing the man and his wife. Yes, the couple who showed up at Joel's door agreed to cooperate.
So Internal Affairs sat with the woman Joel adamantly denied ever seeing before. Here are some of that interview.
Joel had suggested that they meet at a public park.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Joel wanted to see her that night, but she had plans. It was Caroline's turn to cook Sunday dinner for her family. To her surprise, he was down to show up at her parents' and bravely dine with her mom, dad, and two older sisters.
Joel and Caroline were skipping a lot of steps. This would typically be date 10, not date 1. But it felt right having Joel there beside her. And from that moment on... We became inseparable.
But when they were together, it was like the beginning all over again. Caroline and Joel made the most of the gorgeous landscape in Colorado.
They had met early in the summer of 1998. And in the fall, Caroline had planned to go to graduate school a few hours away in Boulder. But Joel wasn't about to let her get away.
Here's Caroline's best friend, Debra.
Debra is, as Caroline says, her ride or die. They met back in their 20s at work, and they even have a nickname for each other.
Debra knew Joel from the beginning of their relationship.
Caroline loved him. Her friends and family had grown to love him.
The engagement was simple, but planning the wedding wouldn't be. Caroline was Catholic, but Joel wasn't. That meant they couldn't get married in her church. But then, Joel did something extraordinary that surprised Caroline. Joel said, I'll convert for you.
Once Joel was confirmed as part of the Catholic Church, he and Caroline prepared for the sacrament of marriage.
Three years after they met, on July 27, 2001, Caroline and Joel got married.
She took the test while Joel was sleeping, but she wanted to share the news with him right away.
Once the shock wore off, they were both really looking forward to having a baby.
Caroline threw herself into preparing for motherhood. And Joel began to focus on providing for his growing family.
During her pregnancy, the couple made an agreement that Joel's career as a cop would be the centerpiece of their life. It was a sacrifice for the betterment of their family and for the entire community.
Caroline experienced some lonely days. But the couple was working for the future.
As for Caroline's career, it was more flexible. She isn't an officer herself. She asked us not to disclose her exact job title. We'll just say she works in the justice system and collaborates with law enforcement. So Caroline had the utmost respect for the work her husband did.
Two years after their son was born, Caroline and Joel welcomed a baby girl. Our daughter was born in 2005. And then they saw their sacrifices start to pay off.
Despite the difficult hours, Joel embraced fatherhood. As the kids grew, Joel and Caroline brought them along for all their outdoor adventures. They even got an RV.
to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to betrayal.substack.com That's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K. Or just go to Substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe.
From those early days, Joel encouraged their son to get involved in his community. Here's their son.
They even traveled to Florida for a scouting trip.
And Joel found ways to bond with their daughter, Nicole.
Both kids enjoyed the benefits of their dad being a cop because they had access to exciting experiences.
Then there was Joel's police car.
The car was a symbol of their dad's power and authority, of his values, his service. Despite Joel working nights, their family thrived. Both kids were passionate about sports and became competitive athletes. And they were focused, hardworking students.
After eight years working as a sergeant, Joel was tapped for an important assignment.
Internal Affairs is a department that investigates complaints and allegations of misconduct against its own officers. The new job meant Joel would work regular business hours and be home at night.
She craved that companionship. When Joel moved to internal affairs, he began sharing more about his work with Caroline. Every industry has its good and bad operators, but some of what Joel revealed was disturbing.
It was eye-opening to see how discipline worked at CSPD, what conduct could get you fired, and how honesty could save your job, even for very serious offenses. Caroline was proud that Joel was well-liked and respected. Here's a retired CSPD officer. He asked that we call him Dan.
His family beamed whenever he was honored for his work, especially his daughter. I was very proud that my dad was a police officer. She remained proud, even as the public's relationship with law enforcement faced a watershed moment.
These were the George Floyd protests that were shaking the nation to its core. The mountain town of Colorado Springs was no exception. Dan was working for the department then and recalls the experience.
Caroline and Joel wanted their community to know that while they supported the police, they did not accept the kind of policing that led to George Floyd's death.
Even though she supported the protests, she was scared for her husband's safety. He had to work the front lines.
That's what they all thought, that he was one of the good ones. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Caroline knew Joel was one of the good ones. She had seen it with her own eyes. Joel was her rock during one of the hardest moments of her life.
We have these two great kids. The same mother who once said, don't tell me you're marrying a cop, had come to trust him, to love him.
Joel stepped in again when Caroline was faced with an uncomfortable decision.
Caroline asked for discretion here, but I will say this. The property had a lot of dark history in her family.
You don't need to worry about it. He stuck to his word and took charge of the rental property. And take note, the rental property is important because it's going to come back later in Caroline's story. Actually, almost every anecdote you've heard up until this point will too. Soon after the loss of Caroline's mother, another exciting career opportunity came Joel's way.
The CSPD public information officer was retiring, and Joel was offered the position on a temporary basis. This role meant he'd be the face of the department, handling media relations and serving as the spokesperson. Here he is, giving an interview to a journalist.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 1. One of the good ones. Hi, everyone. I'm excited to be back for Season 4 of Betrayal. It's just incredible how much this community has grown, and I wanted to take a moment to give you my most heartfelt thank you for supporting this series, as well as our weekly series. No matter how you found betrayal, I'm really happy you're here.
Joel loved being the CSPD spokesperson. And he loved the recognition.
Their home office was almost a shrine to Joel's accomplishments, with newspaper clippings and plaques. He even jokingly referred to it as the love me room. They were all proud of him. Plus, the job meant he was on the day shift, and that meant more time together.
Once the temporary role as public information officer ended, Joel tried to get as much experience across multiple departments as he could. It was the best path to leadership. Eventually, his hard work was recognized, and before long, he was up for the rank of lieutenant. This was a promotion, but it came with a drawback. He would be back on the grueling night shift, at least for the time being.
Then, a year later in 2018, Joel was offered the role of public information officer. But this time, it would be permanent.
Eventually, Joel revealed something that shook Caroline. He'd been grappling with reoccurring memories of a childhood trauma. It was something she'd known about. She didn't realize it was interfering with his work. Joel explained how the stress had built up, leading to an explosive confrontation with the chief. With Caroline's unwavering support, he agreed to start therapy.
Caroline found Joel a counselor experienced with first responders and PTSD. The PIO job, it was a loss, but Joel's mental health was the priority. And later the same year, Joel was given another daytime assignment, overseeing special events for the department. The job had its perks. He organized the motorcade with the Secret Service whenever the president or vice president came to town.
And for Caroline, it meant more time together as a family and more quality time with her husband. And for a while, Joel seemed well. Then one night they attended one of their son's sporting events together. Joel was distracted and despondent.
Caroline was concerned. He was obviously in distress. Their son just turned 16 and started driving.
Police officers are the first responders to a lot of disturbing situations. So it wasn't a surprise that Joel experienced this type of PTSD. These moments were tough, but they were infrequent. Caroline looked for the joy in their lives and made it a point to celebrate all the good they had.
They wanted to celebrate big with a family beach vacation. Here's Caroline and Joel's son.
Now, for the next several weeks, we will be focusing on one story. A story that we learned about only because a woman named Caroline and her daughter learned about us. By the way, some names have been changed to protect privacy.
Joel and Caroline were devising a plan of their own for their anniversary.
Caroline shared some photos with me. She looks stunning in a long white dress with a low back. In one shot, her son walks beside her on the beach. And her daughter holds flowers. The kids look so proud of their parents.
Their son can still picture it.
The ceremony left their family and friends feeling an afterglow long past the trip. But less than a year later, in March of 22, Joel's mental health took another turn for the worse. Caroline was terrified. She had never seen him so upset or vulnerable.
The job must have been weighing on him for decades, and it was all coming out now. The couple had heart-to-hearts. Joel opened up about his parents, details he'd never shared before. They started talking about the future, about what life could look like if he changed careers. Caroline didn't care what he did. She just wanted him healthy, happy.
Then on Sunday, April 10th, Joel did something no one saw coming. It rocked his family in the best way. Our daughter wanted to go to church.
She thinks about that moment often. Because it was the last time she understood her world.
It's an eight hour drive. Nicole's mom, Caroline Borrego, was the driver.
This season on Betrayal, the good guy Joel appeared to be was all a facade.
Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.
Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman.
Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. Voice acting by Caitlin Golden. And special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
That thought stuck with Caroline, enough to motivate her to send us an email. And before we knew it, my producer Carrie and I found ourselves in Colorado Springs, where we met Caroline Berega at her home. Caroline is a mother of two who works in law enforcement. Her house is beautiful with vaulted ceilings in a cozy suburb of the Springs. If one thing stuck out to me, this was a forever home.
She was warm, welcoming, and not alone. Little did we know we were guests of a special night Caroline does with the people closest to her. It's called Supper Club, and they do it every Sunday night. They drink wine, crack jokes, and unwind before the start of another week. These friends never miss a Supper Club.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
were complete strangers, and the night could not have felt more comfortable.
She showed us trophies and ribbons from her kids' sports careers. There were instruments and elementary school art projects. And there were family photos smiling at us in frames all over the house. This was a happy home of a happy family. But when we looked a little closer, we realized that many of the photos weren't of Caroline's family at all.
They were actually stock photos, the kind you get when you buy a frame at the store. It became overwhelmingly clear Caroline had deleted parts of her life. Actually, just one part of her life. The most painful one. Caroline had removed all traces of her husband, her now ex-husband, Joel Kern.
Joel was a decorated member of the Colorado Springs Police Department. He had taken an oath to protect and serve the community.
But on April 11th, 2022, Caroline discovered that the only person Joel was serving was himself.
Season four is about truth. It's the foundation upon which trust is built. So what happens when someone manipulates the truth? What happens when a person or an institution believes that they are above the truth? For Caroline, her husband's lies completely undermined her sense of reality. It's been a hard few years for Caroline and her family.
Before we sat down with her, she looked to her daughter for strength.
And that's all the permission I needed. Nicole always felt a deep kinship with her father, Joel Kern.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
And for Joel, it wasn't just a job. It was part of his identity. During Nicole's childhood, he rose up the ranks in the Colorado Springs Police Department. And for most of her life, he worked unusual hours.
Substation was a new word for me. It's another word for precinct. Caroline made sure not to skip celebrations just because Joel worked at night. She brought the kids over and they celebrated birthdays and holidays at the substation. So Joel wouldn't miss out and the kids would have their dad at milestone events.
When he had to miss the kids' sports games or recitals, it was for good reason. Their dad was on the side of justice, integrity. And this didn't happen by accident. Caroline and Joel designed their life around his career. In fact, the day she first laid eyes on Joel, he was in uniform.
It was 1998 and Caroline was fresh out of college, starting her first full-time job as a domestic violence advocate.
When Caroline says lineup, she's talking about the briefing officers receive at the start of their shift. It's when the sergeant gives out updates and assignments.
there was something happening between them. Caroline didn't know it then, but that night would alter the trajectory of her life. And since we're going to be talking a lot about the Colorado Springs Police Department, I'll refer to it as the CSPD from now on.
The ride along was routine, but it was a long night. When they returned to the substation, Caroline was ready to get home.
Caroline was playing it cool, but he gave her his number anyway.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Joel Kern was a respected lieutenant at the Colorado Springs Police Department. But Joel used his badge to fool everyone.
Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes.
He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception, on and off the clock. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal starting on May 22nd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
It's so interesting. It's like no matter the amount of conversations and things that you think that you're navigating and communicating, your brain just doesn't go to this worst case scenario. You just don't go there.
It's impossible to even ask this, but like. What are you going to do about this anger?
All of it feels like such an injustice. And sometimes you just need to like scream it from the mountaintops and the person that really needs to hear it. You just want to just like shove, you know. Put it out there and scream it so that they hear you.
Progress is not a straight line. And there's a lot of similar rhetoric in this letter of where you were like in the beginning of a lot of things, you know, and you're going to make strides and getting yourself to a different place and then come back to these feelings that you have regarding this.
And one day, I really do hope you find that whatever feeling that you're longing for, you get it on your own. Yeah.
After the break, we'll hear from Stacey's son, Tyler. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
His goal is to be an advocate for male survivors of trauma.
Through Betrayal and through Tyler's posts, his story has reached a lot of people. We've received so many comments and emails calling Tyler an inspiration for speaking up. My producer met with Tyler and asked him how it feels to get all that positive feedback.
For so long, Tyler thought he'd take what Justin did to him to his grave.
But when it came out that Justin had abused Tyler's friend, Tyler's family was concerned that he too was a victim. They kept asking him until he eventually disclosed to his aunt. Many male victims of sexual abuse keep what happened to them a secret for their whole lives. For example, Anthony Edwards, an actor Tyler spoke with in season three, didn't disclose for decades.
I also wanted to hear about Tyler's career. When we last talked, he was considering going into the military. But it's always been clear to me that fitness is Tyler's first love. He even did a TikTok about it.
When I was with Tyler last, he took me to the gym and we had a great time. So I was excited to learn.
Earlier in this episode, Tyler's mom, Stacy, told us that Justin is appealing the length of his sentence and his ability to contact his children. We asked Tyler what he made of Justin's appeal.
At this point, Tyler feels sorry for Justin.
Tyler's referencing the fact that Justin encrypted his computer when he knew the authorities were onto him. Tyler still thinks about that years later.
Hi guys, it's Andrea. In just two weeks, we'll be back with a brand new season of Betrayal. We'll be telling one story over several episodes. I'll take you to Colorado, where we'll do a deep dive into a betrayal of family and community. But before that, we wanted to give you an update on our family from last season. In season three, we told you the story of Stacey Rutherford and her son Tyler.
At the end of the chat, we asked Tyler what else he wanted people to know.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.
Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Produced by Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck.
Special thanks to Stacey Rutherford, Tyler, and the rest of Stacey and Tyler's friends and family. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Salvecchio. Editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Stacey was a single mom when she met Justin. She knew on their first date she would marry him, and she did. He was funny, adored her children, and had a bright future as a family physician. Together, they had two more kids. Stacey loved Justin and the family they created. After years of uncertainty, she finally felt grounded in stability. But Justin was hiding a dark secret.
For years, he was sexually abusing Tyler, Stacey's eldest son. Once he was caught, he tried to organize a murder-for-hire plot to kill Tyler and prevent him from testifying in court. For these crimes, Justin was ordered to spend decades in prison. We'll hear from Tyler later in the episode. But first, I wanted to share a conversation I had with Stacey
Over the winter holidays, she called to let me know that there was an update in Justin's case. Their family's legal battle wasn't over yet. The last time you walked out of the courtroom was for the murder for hire that happened last year. And that was like, OK, this is finally like we can close the book and move on with our lives. Did you think that you were done with this?
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Stacey eventually spotted a change on Justin's docket sheet, and then she got formal notification in the mail. The appeal was happening. What is he appealing exactly?
Originally, Justin was sentenced to 26 years and 10 months to 70 years in prison, with 12 years probation to follow his sentence. The judge also ordered that Justin was to have no contact with Tyler or his two younger siblings for the length of his sentence, even once they became adults.
Right. I can understand and hold space for when they are adults. Yeah. You know, as a mom, like wanting to look to the future of your kid, having agency as an adult and being able to give them that agency. I can understand that. Yeah. Stacey has not had contact with Justin since she learned about his plot to kill Tyler. It's been over two years.
But recently, she started writing letters to him as a way of dealing with her emotions.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Like, where is all this anger and emotion coming from recently?
Stacey decided to mail one of her most recent letters. In this letter, she mentions Nanny D. Nanny's like a mother to Justin, and she's the only one who's remained in his corner. Stacey also writes about her financial situation. Justin was the breadwinner in the family. With him gone, Stacey's been left holding the bag, supporting her two young children on her own. Here's the letter.
Nanny asked me the other day if you could have the kids signed up for a charity that provides toys for children of incarcerated parents. And I can't help but think the last thing we need is more toys. If in the next few years we may not even be able to afford a home to put those toys in. Yeah, that's my reality these days. That's your children's reality these days.
I see no light at the end of this tunnel. I remember you telling me I'd never have to live like this again. And I'm worse off. So when you heard about the kids' charity of toys of incarcerated parents, was your first reaction anger?
Justin has a private attorney, and this infuriates Stacey. He somehow has the money to pay for his appeal, but has contributed nothing to the care of their children.
Right. It kind of just seems like he wants to be able to contribute in this way, but he's not understanding the larger impact that all of his actions have put you and the kids in. Like, it just felt like you were shaking him with this letter of like, you don't really know how bad things are because of everything that you've done.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
In December, right around the holidays, we caught up with Stacey Rutherford, whose story we highlighted in Season 3. Recently, she wrote a letter to her ex-husband, Justin, while he remains in prison. Stacey shared that letter with us. there's this theme in your letter where you talk about, you know, you promised me that things were going to be different. Like I'd already gone through a divorce.
I had already gotten pretty far on raising two kids to end up in this place. That's a really intense cycle to be thinking about.
This is where Jessica Baum jumped in to offer her expertise.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
We're having a conversation with a listener named Elizabeth. Her best friend is stuck in a state of denial, trying to repair with a husband who sexually abused her daughter. Watching her friend Sarah make this decision is excruciating, because for her, it's bigger than their friendship. It's about Sarah's 19-year-old daughter. Elizabeth watched Sarah's daughter grow up and helped care for her.
They're like family. Here's Elizabeth.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode of Betrayal. A few months ago, we got an email from a listener that stood out to our team. We're going to call this listener Elizabeth. She had watched season two of Betrayal on Hulu, which tells the story of a stepdaughter that was violated by her stepfather.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Elizabeth wrote to us because the same thing was playing out in her own life, or rather, in her best friend's life. Elizabeth and her friend, we'll call her Sarah, have been close for 13 years. They used to live in the same apartment building. Their daughters were around the same age. Sarah was raising her daughter with her new husband, who became her stepdad, the only father her daughter knew.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Our listener Elizabeth has been taking this all in. And through the conversation, she realized that it's not just about what she should say to her friend. It's about her own experience of watching Sarah make this choice. For Elizabeth, that might be a decision she can't overlook.
Elizabeth and Sarah's families became close. They planned joint family vacations and shared holidays. Elizabeth felt like an aunt to Sarah's daughter, who is now 19. A few months ago, Sarah texted Elizabeth, saying she needed to talk. It was an emergency.
Conversations like this can be triggering. They incite judgment and anger. We felt it as we produced this episode. But like Elizabeth said, she's not the only one. We just hope this episode finds the people who need to hear it. I want to give a special thanks to Jessica Baum, Ashley Trujillo and our anonymous listener, Elizabeth.
If you're interested in learning more about attachments, we recommend Jessica Baum's book, Anxiously Attached, becoming more secure in life and love. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support.
One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
After Sarah found out, she confronted her husband. And he admitted to everything.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Sarah went with her daughter to report the crime. And a few months later, her husband was charged with multiple counts of child abuse. He got out on bond and is awaiting his court date. But that's just the beginning of our episode because Sarah struggled to let her husband go.
When Sarah first found out, she cut off communication with her husband. She ignored his texts, begging for forgiveness. But when he texted about everyday things, like chores and bills, she would engage. That progressed into longer phone conversations and visits. Then they started going to therapy together.
Within a few weeks of the police report, Sarah's husband was back at home, sleeping in their bed. The night it happened, Sarah's daughter left the house. She went to stay with her grandparents. You may be wondering, what about Child Protective Services? Well, Sarah's daughter is 19 now, an adult. So legally, her stepdad was allowed back in the same house.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
In the absence of a protective order, there was nothing law enforcement could do. There's limited interventions for adults in this situation. For Elizabeth, her friend's decision was unimaginable. It was so unlike Sarah, and it just seemed wrong.
This is what Elizabeth wrote to us. She felt helpless watching her best friend let this man back into her life. She worried that saying too much might blow up the friendship and further isolate Sarah from the people who love her. But more than anything, she wanted to get through to Sarah because Elizabeth felt as though her friend was choosing her own attachments and needs over her daughter.
And Elizabeth felt like that was the wrong choice. Our team has heard countless stories like this, to the point where we couldn't ignore this topic. Where loved ones watch from afar as someone lets an abuser back into their life. It's an incredibly painful thing to watch. People can draw boundaries that end relationships. It's something we can all relate to on some level.
That's why we wanted to have this conversation. We saw Elizabeth's question as a way into a larger discussion about the role of loved ones in these cases. What can we say when someone isn't ready to end their relationship with an abuser? Elizabeth asked for advice from Ashley Trujillo, the subject of season two of Betrayal. Ashley has been through something similar to Sarah.
Her husband, Jason, was arrested for possession of child sexual abuse material. Among the material in his stash were images of Avea, images he'd taken in secret. However, he had not been hands-on. And while Jason awaited sentencing, Ashley tried to salvage the relationship. She went straight into wifey mode, as she calls it.
It wasn't until she saw the full discovery file against Jason that she finally decided to leave him. But those few months Ashley stayed with him have had lasting impacts on her relationship with her daughter. So we invited Ashley Trujillo to talk with Elizabeth, and she agreed. We also brought in Jessica Baum, a licensed clinical therapist, to help guide the conversation.
Jess worked closely with Ashley during Season 2 of Betrayal. You'll hear more from Jess as the conversation unfolds. But let's start with Elizabeth and Ashley.
If you've heard season two, you'll know that eventually the glass shattered for Ashley. She finally saw Jason for who he was and the danger he possessed. Ashley's been repairing her relationship with her daughter ever since. She can understand Sarah's pain and why Elizabeth is desperate for Sarah to have that glass shatter moment. Second thing I wanted to say is how wonderful of a friend you are.
I'm going to hand it over to our producer, Mo, who talked with Molly for this episode. Can you just tell me a little bit about what the process of writing this was like for you?
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Thank you so much for listening. And thank you to the incredible listeners who wrote in to share their essays on the theme of resilience. We were so moved by your submissions that we're bringing you more of these listener essays. And our next theme will be the moment everything changed. Set the scene. Take us back to that memory.
Describe the feelings and thoughts you had in the moment when everything changed for you. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to betrayalpod at gmail.com. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins.
Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, we put a call out for your listener essays. We wanted to hear from you about resilience after a devastating betrayal. And we received so many incredible essay submissions. For this episode, we're going to feature the second of two essays that really moved me. It's written and read by a listener named Molly.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
When we come back, our producer talks with Molly about her writing process. And stay tuned until the end of the episode when we'll be sharing our next listener essay theme. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free. And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
The moment everything changed. Set the scene. Take us back to that memory. Describe the feelings and thoughts you had in the moment when everything changed for you. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal.
I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, we put a call out for your listener essays. We wanted to hear from you about resilience after a devastating betrayal. And we received so many incredible essay submissions. So for this episode, we're going to feature the first of two listener essays that really moved me. This one is written and read by a listener named Melissa.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
When we come back, our producer talks with Melissa about her writing process. And stay tuned until the end of the episode when we'll be sharing the theme of our next listener essay. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm going to hand it over to our producer, Mo, who talked with Melissa for this episode.
We're talking with Dr. Kate Truitt, who's an applied neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and educator. Dr. Truitt says that when it comes to identifying the stories your brain has written about trauma, you can take the first step on your own.
But working through that fear and vulnerability is part of the process. Dr. Truitt helps her clients develop tools for navigating the difficult feelings that come up when they're telling their story.
Mindful touch is a meditation practice of clearing your mind, bringing your awareness to your body, and gently running your hands together or running your hands over your arms like a hug. It's a way to ground yourself and help calm down your amygdala. It seems simple, but this practice can build a sense of safety around traumatic memories.
Another important step in this process is detaching from labels.
Certain labels have more power than others, like the label of victim. It's a word that comes up a lot in our interviews. It's a polarizing and emotionally charged label. Some people adopt it. Others reject it.
Still, having a word for that experience and the changes it caused can be a way to acknowledge that it happened.
A major barrier to building resilience and empowerment is shame. Dr. Truitt explains where shame comes from and why we hold on to it so tightly.
Shame is baked into our brains' normal functioning, and it's something we have to learn to work with.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
As we often hear on our show, healing from trauma isn't linear. And healing doesn't always bring back the person you were before. That's one of the hardest parts. So we asked Dr. Truitt what healing looks like when she's working with clients.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode of Betrayal. Our team loves to dive into the science and psychology behind betrayal and the trauma it can cause. We often talk about the power of storytelling as a tool for healing. So we got curious about how the science of storytelling really functions in trauma recovery.
Instead of making happiness a marker of healing, a more realistic approach is to build self-compassion.
This is the work she's actively doing with her clients. But Dr. Truitt acknowledges that therapy isn't always accessible. That's why she's committed to online education and sharing free resources.
That's how we found applied neuroscientist and clinical psychologist, Dr. Kate Truitt.
Her most recent book is a memoir, where she uses her own story as a lesson in trauma recovery.
In writing her memoir, she experienced firsthand how healing it can be to tell your story. And it's a story she hopes other people can learn from.
Thank you for listening. And a special thanks to Dr. Kate Truitt for sharing her expertise with us. In the spirit of storytelling for trauma healing, we're going to spend the next two weeks sharing listener essay submissions. The theme was resilience and recovery after a devastating betrayal. We received so many incredible submissions and we're excited to share them with you.
So stay tuned and we'll be back next week. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Dr. Truitt also has her own clinical practice in Los Angeles, where she sees clients who've experienced trauma.
She's very open about her own lived experiences and how they impact her work.
I wanted to start by asking Dr. Truitt what trauma really is in a clinical sense. For instance, what makes something a traumatic experience to our brains?
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
There's one part of our brain responsible for processing safety. It's the amygdala. Dr. Truitt actually personifies the amygdala. She affectionately calls her Amy. By making the amygdala into a character, that can help us see its reaction as separate from who we fundamentally are.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Sometimes the amygdala struggles to determine the size of a risk, and it can be activated in all kinds of situations.
What the amygdala considers to be a threat changes all the time based on the things we experience.
Whether we're aware of it or not, our amygdala is always reacting to experiences. Dr. Truitt says that traumas that occur in early childhood, even ones we're too young to remember, can still have a strong impact on the amygdala's sense of safety.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Regardless of the degrees of trauma we experience, it always takes a toll. Trauma exists on a spectrum, and so do the effects.
It's fascinating to hear her unpack how one event in our lives can impact our brain wiring and how it can also put our body in trauma mode. So without proper intervention, we could stay in that state for the rest of our lives. It can keep us from achieving our goals or experiencing joy.
And a lot of Dr. Truitt's work is teaching people how. After we have a traumatic experience, our brain starts to develop a story, a narrative to explain what happened and how it happened. We can become very attached to that story. For example, if your partner has an affair, your brain's initial story might be, I'm not good enough. But here's the thing.
Oftentimes, our brain writes the story while we're in trauma mode, and the first draft is full of self-blame.
And when the brain is stuck in that survival mode, seeing through trauma glasses, this is what it can feel like.
Part of Dr. Truitt's approach is understanding the amygdala's response and even empathizing with it, because its biological intention is to keep us safe.
We are wired to make stories, but we're also allowed to revise the story our brain writes.
After the break, Dr. Truitt delves into specifics about storytelling as a tool for trauma recovery.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Yeah.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Something that we're constantly confronting in true crime is having to tell these hyperbolic versions of true crime stories when in reality, the more relatable and important ones are the ones that are kind of in the everyday. I remember when we were covering Ashley Litton's case in Riverton, Utah for Betrayal Season 2.
He reached out to ICAC, which is an Internet Crimes Against Children task force that every state has. And I remember one of the task force members asked, why are you covering this case? Like, I deal with, you know, perpetrators that are 10 times worse than Jason Linton. Why this one? And my response was, I don't want the hyperbolic version of
CSAM case you know I want to meet people in a very average everyday story because that's actually what's happening and so I feel like that's the same for a lot of these mothers who are if they're on the news it's like this monster of a mother that did this and it's like you know we have to hear about the extremes instead of leaning into the reality of what's happening yeah
I think one of the things that I also felt was really relatable, and the circumstances are so different, but just knowing your sister's story and having to go in front of the judge in family court, like you're dealing with family court and criminal court are two separate things. And the... issues that I've seen a lot of the women that I deal with on betrayal having to navigate the criminal side.
And once that's over and, you know, the father of their children are released, then they're dealing with family court, either in their divorce or child support or dealing with visitation or It is a whole other ball of wax where parents have a ton of rights, rightfully so, but they're in situations where kids are at risk. It's a really scary system because they are two separate entities.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning. Last week, we shared Andrea Dunlop's story. On this week's episode, Andrea and I sit down for a conversation about true crime podcasting. We get into what this work means for us and how we approach these stories. We hope you enjoy it. Andrea, thank you so much for joining me. I'm a listener and also a huge fan of Nobody Should Believe Me, which is your show.
Yeah. In the case of Stacey Rutherford and Tyler from season three of Betrayal, I think the courts got it right. So for people that don't know, Stacey was married to a man named Justin and he was a doctor in Redding, Pennsylvania. She had two children in a previous marriage and then met Justin and they got married. They had two kids of their own.
And he was, by all accounts, a great husband, an incredible doctor, beloved by his community. Turns out that he was abusing Stacy's son from her first marriage, his stepson, since he was 11. And... Tyler didn't disclose until he was, I want to say, 17. So a long time. Yeah.
And, you know, Justin also tried to hire a hitman while he was in prison to murder Tyler so that he wouldn't testify in court, which is what we cover in season three of Betrayal. And what the judge did is not only did he get He'll be basically in jail for the rest of his life. I don't want to misquote what his sentencing was.
But he isn't allowed to speak to his biological children or have any contact with the family until he's done his probation. Basically, for the rest of his life. And so I remember talking to Stacey and Tyler and them feeling like really complicated emotions because they deeply love Justin. Like the person that they knew as a human being, like Tyler loved his stepdad.
But then there was the monster, the abuser. They were two different people to him. And that was a scenario where the court really contemplated a lifetime of abuse and grooming and narcissistic behavior and just got it and knocked it out of the park. And I was like, heck, yeah, like this is a Pennsylvania. Like, I was really proud. So, yeah, like sometimes we talk about things getting wrong.
Like that was a scenario where I think the courts got it right. Yeah.
And we just shared your story on Betrayal Weekly. And I'm just so glad our two shows are collaborating because I think that Munchausen by proxy, which is what you cover in your show, shares a lot in common with betrayal. Earlier, we were joking that this conversation is kind of like the Andrea Andrea True Crime Summit, but that's really what it feels like.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
We're working on a case for season four of Betrayal about this woman out of Colorado Springs. She was with her husband for 20 years. She lived like a typical American life. She thought that she was just basically living like the suburban dream. And I won't give all the details because we air in May. But things unravel and the family is torn apart.
And she has to look back on 20 years and basically... readjust her sense of reality because he shares things, discloses things that completely alters core memories in her life where she's living and thinks one thing is happening, where there's another almost like parallel universe where he's operating and she has to hold both realities at the same time.
So I'm hoping we can really compare notes about what it's like working in this space.
She often says perception is my reality and that really is true. And I remember because I had listened to your first season so long ago, I was like, let me listen to this again. Like, you know, Hope's family and then your family. I was thinking about you guys and like you having to look back. Like once things became clearer to you or things were coming into focus.
How are you looking back on that time and how painful was it to try to merge what you thought you were experiencing and then the reality that you now learn? It's just it feels like those memories start to hold on to you in a way that you're like, I don't even know what to do.
Right. And now you're estranged. You guys haven't talked in over a decade.
You know, I often joke that I'm a recovering TV executive. And so I hail from the TV space, but I work for a company called Glass Entertainment Group, and we specialize in reality TV and documentaries. And for about seven and a half, eight years, I was overseeing our business department. So I was the executive in charge of production.
Like, I'm a twin. And so, you know, my relationship with my sister is... Next to having my own children, that's the most important relationship in my life always will be. I entered the world with her. I did every fundamental first with her. I could imagine losing my sister or not being able to share in critical moments. It's a profound loss, that relationship with a sister. It is.
Yeah. Again, it's the complexity of the human experience. That's kind of like our driving force at Glass Podcast and what we do with Betrayal. You guys have that in your DNA, too. Like, I've heard it, and it's been evident in every season that you guys have done.
I got to give Hulu and ABC so much credit. I mean, this is like a big platform and some of these stories are really hard to tell. And it's time where people like afraid to go there. I'm like really impressed. I mean, season three is tough, but they saw a landscape. I mean, this past year, the Menendez brothers were all over the place.
Absolutely. And for them to see that people are actually open to hearing about that and discussing that and just really sitting with that and taking Tyler and Stacey's story and pursuing that for the Hulu documentary is really exciting because it's only going to help dismantle the stigma around this issue. And I'm really proud to work with partners like that. I truly am.
So I did all the boring things in TV, which is like the budget, the financing, like all the hard stuff. And my colleague Ben and I were constantly working through legal deals with our development department. And we were seeing great stories getting passed by TV executives and networks.
It's all it all works, works together. So your book that just came out, this is your first book. Like intro to nonfiction, right? Or do I have that wrong?
We just got like straight in the deep end, which I love. I could talk to you for hours. Andrea, thank you so much for coming on our show and sharing your story with us. Thanks for listening. Next week, we're sharing the first episode in Andrea's latest season of Nobody Should Believe Me. It's about Sophie Hartman, a mother who adopted two girls from Zambia.
But the story takes a tragic turn when one of her daughters becomes terribly ill. So stay tuned, and we'll be back next week with that episode. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support.
One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And one story that came across our desk, we were working with Kim Goldman, who is the sister of Ron Goldman, who was murdered by OJ Simpson. And we were trying to sell something in TV with her, but a lot of TV networks weren't interested in the project unless OJ was involved or OJ was attached or we could guarantee an interview with OJ. And this was back when OJ was still living.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I think he had just gotten out of prison and was living in Vegas at the time. But my colleagues and I really believe that there was a story here even without O.J. 's voice. So we decided to make it a podcast. And instead of telling the O.J. Simpson story, we told the story of people who lived it. And so that's how we got started in the podcast space.
It's all kind of related. So Jen Faison is the subject of season one in her marriage and how the marriage unraveled. But she works in television. She's a television executive producer. So we kind of are in the same universe. And Jen had heard Confronting O.J. Simpson and reached out to her agent and her agent reached out to me and my colleague, Ben, for an initial conversation.
But the universe has an interesting way of working, because at this time I was getting out of a relationship. I had moved out of my boyfriend's house. I had discovered a lot of deception, not to the magnitude that Jen had. And I was kind of recovering from understanding, like, why was I in this relationship? Why was I ignoring a lot of signs?
Was I ignoring it or was it like, you know, all of these questions that were coming to the surface. So it was like I was meeting Jen at the perfect time. I couldn't relate to the magnitude of what Jen was going through. But I knew like as it was like, I don't even want to say as a woman, as a woman, but as a human being, I understood the pain when she pitched me her story.
I understood her anger and her confusion. And I found like this emotional access. And I thought if we can maybe do something with that, people will relate and maybe heal. And so just that relatability and that timing of it just so happened to work out.
Yeah. And that was my worry producing There and Gone, which came out this past summer in 2024. And I have to give iHeart a lot of credit because we pitched them this story and there wasn't an ending and we couldn't guarantee that we would find or solve this case. And so you're taking a lot of risk.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
And then the partnerships that you make with distributors are also taking a lot of risk for what's the payoff? You know, what's the audience going to leave thinking? Are they going to walk away feeling satisfied? And, you know, these are people like we're studying and we're exploring stories of people and their loss and their trauma and their grief.
And so we're not always going to get a payoff that makes sense to everybody. You know, I like telling stories that really show the complexity of the human experience. And I think There and Gone is an example of that. Yeah.
Sure. It's the story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo. 20 years ago, two 30-somethings just literally vanished off of South Street in Philadelphia, which is basically like the Bourbon Street of Philadelphia, the busiest place for nightlife. They were seen leaving a bar and then never seen again. And then until this day, no one knows what happened. Was it an accident? Was it murder for hire?
And so I remember this because I was, I think, a senior in high school. And it was terrifying because one of the victims, his parents have a bakery that I grew up going to. And both of their families look so much like mine in different ways. They do Sunday dinner. I come from an Italian family. We do Sunday dinner. You know, they gamble on Sunday over football bets.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Like I'm wearing my Eagles jersey. Like this feels like this could be my own cousin this happened to. So it was very personal to me. And so it was just this loss that kind of
reverberated throughout our entire community and continues because how do two people in their mid-30s just vanish just literally into thin air and when we were exploring doing the story I thought the families would be very interested but we would struggle with law enforcement
But then I soon realized that the FBI really needed our help because the FBI knows that the more coverage they can get of this case, more people will be able to like call in and feel like, let me just do my part. Let me 20 years later, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to make the phone call. I'm going to say what I know and be done with it. And.
I live in this city and there are parts of this city where this crime isn't a big question mark. There are parts of this city and neighborhoods in this city where people know exactly what happened or they feel like it's a fact. They communicate it like it's a fact. I know who did it. I know why it's done. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.
Like how a whole neighborhood in one city, there's like this understood rumor of what happened to two random people that have no connection. And that was the neighborhood in which I lived. So... To me, it was like, I just want to help these families. You know, we didn't solve the crime. Yet. But there was enough people that actually wrote into the FBI for them to reopen and assign new agents.
So I feel like I did my job.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Well, the first thing that just to interject, I think one of the biggest things that I feel like we both, you know, Betrayal, trauma and deception is one thing. Your show covers factitious disorder. And although they're very different, there's so many commonalities between people who live through or have.
a relationship with Munchausens and Munchausens by proxy, and people who experience deception and betrayal. The topics we cover on betrayal are extreme, but sadly, they're not uncommon. And in season three, we really focus on male sexual abuse. And we learn that one in six men have experienced this issue. But the really scary reality is
It actually is probably more, but it just goes unreported because of the stigma around it. And I just feel like These are two taboo issues, you know, Munchausen syndrome by proxy. And to take that seriously and talk about it to help dismantle that stigma, it's such a large hurdle.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Which I think she was getting evicted from and electricity had been shut off and it was just like in a bad state. Andrea's mom alleged that... She saw some paperwork for hospital admission that was on the date that she had said she was in the hospital. And she had been seen for dehydration. There was nothing else in the paperwork.
She and I started talking and she told me, well, Megan told me that her fiance made it back in time and that he was the one who took her to the hospital and that they said goodbye to the babies and took pictures. You know, detailed, like really detailed versions. And so obviously like those are two completely separate stories.
He had witnessed some behavior with my sister and his son that had alarmed him and that had crossed the line for him and broke up with her. And then the next day, she came home from work with a positive pregnancy test. Now, my sister worked for an OBGYN clinic and then she brought home ultrasounds, which I had seen also ultrasound photos.
And she had torn a piece of it off and he found the piece and it had someone else's name on it. And she gave him this explanation of like, oh, well, I just did the scan on myself and I had to enter someone else's name so that it would end. I mean, it's just like completely nonsense quality.
The most likely outcome is that she had never been pregnant, you know, and this was not ever a real pregnancy. So that was a big deal because then this was a family crisis.
I think I was in such shock and scared, honestly. Like, it's a scary thing to go down this road and start thinking about, like, what do you mean it wasn't real? Like, I just saw her. She looked pregnant. I felt baby's kick. Like, what are you talking about?
I knew she was capable of being deceptive. I had seen that. But this was just such a deeper level, and it was so dramatic. Thinking about her sitting on the phone, just like in her apartment, narrating this whole thing to me was really, really disturbing.
My dad was obviously upset, but I think he was much more straightforward. You know, he's British, like stiff upper lip and sort of like, we're just going to like fix it. And like we got to just get in there and just get Megan shaped up, you know, kind of thing. So I think that was kind of his approach.
She had this incredible ability to just sort of like turn the page. It was just kind of like this fever dream, right? Like you're just like, oh, that like weird thing happened. But it's just like, okay, we're all just gonna like put it in the corner. And maybe if we never talk about it again, like maybe we don't have to like think too hard about it.
She had stopped talking to me for months. So it's like, I think we all knew by that point that we will lose her if we try and hold her accountable. Like, if we push her on this pregnancy thing, she's going to stop talking to us.
And we thought he was such a standup guy. And then she just seemed better. And then again, there was just this like pretty quick, like turning of the page. You know, she was still at her job. She's got this boyfriend and then they got engaged. And then it was like, they had this like very big, you know, fancy wedding. And we were just like, okay, like a new chapter.
The night before the wedding, we stayed at this beautiful hotel, the Fairmont in Seattle, and her friend brought like a photo album. And we were like looking at all these photos from growing up with each other and just like laughing. And then, you know, the next day we were like all getting ready in the bridal suite together. And it was just like such a happy moment.
And I remember thinking, oh, my sister is back. Like this is the version of her that I love and the version of her that I remember. She's so happy and look at her. Everything's going to be fine now. And, like, that is my last happy memory with Megan. Because it was not very long after that she got pregnant.
There was a tech in there, and I saw the images of it, and I remember thinking, like, But is she really pregnant? Andrea was guarded. And then on New Year's Eve, again, New Year's Eve, so anniversary, I had stayed home. My parents went to their house in California. So they were out of town again. And she went into labor early.
So I went to the hospital immediately. Again, it was sort of this thing of like, okay, well, I'm here, I'm seeing it. It is really happening. But I remember until I saw the baby, I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't, like, I cannot be sure.
And you know, when he left the hospital, his prognosis was good.
He immediately started having all these issues and he was having issues around his feeding and developmental milestones. And my sister was talking about it a lot. And it was definitely during this period that like something really started to feel like off, off and like scary off.
You know, I have a really vivid memory of being at my parents' house with Megan and my nephew and just looking at her and having this really strong feeling of like she's not there.
He wasn't gaining weight and he was diagnosed failure to thrive. He had a nasal feeding tube, which goes, you know, nasal gastric, which goes in through the nose down to the stomach.
My sister was telling us that the next sort of step in this intervention was to have a surgically implanted feeding tube, a gastric tube, in his stomach.
By this point, my parents and I had been discussing our concerns.
I really think of this as like this moment that like sort of split my life in half. Like there's a very, very distinct sort of before and after. And I remember thinking like, oh, my family, as I know it, is over.
For the most part, she would not let people come to the doctor with her, but for some reason, she let my mom come to his gastroenterology appointment.
At the appointment... They discussed this feeding tube intervention and the doctor said, no, we want to hold off on that for now. Let's wait and see. Let's try and keep him on the nasal tube. And obviously this surgical intervention is not unserious.
And she said, yeah, the doctor said, you know, they're really pushing me. They're really saying he needs this surgery. And I knew it was a lie. Why would you want your baby to have a surgery if they didn't need it?
What? I was like, it's the middle of the day. Like, why is my dad not in the office? And just being like, this is very weird. And then they came in and they sat down with me. And they said, we talked to our family doctor about these concerns. And she said that this sounds like Munchausen by proxy.
It really felt like this moment that like sort of split my life in half. I remember thinking like, oh, my family, like as I know it, is over.
My mom took her to the dermatologist and found out that she was actually shaving it off and lying about it.
I mean, there's just so much had piled up. And then we had seen her tell this just like very direct lie about the gastric tube.
You have to reframe a person once you realize that they're capable of harming a child. That's a vulnerable little person involved. And I loved that baby.
I mean, it's just like, it didn't seem like there was another option. And my mom, very brave of her, called the gastroenterologist at the appointment she'd been in. Went in and she told him our concerns. She told him the history of Megan lying about her own stuff, of the pregnancy, fake pregnancy. And he said, well, do you feel like it's time for an intervention? And she said, yes.
And she was imagining like, okay, we're all going to get together in like a hospital conference room and talk about it and try and get, you know, Megan on the straight and narrow. And that's not what he was talking about.
And then they ended up doing an emergency removal.
He called us and was hysterical and distraught. CPS just came and took their son. We were shocked. We did not know that was going to happen. And Megan and Andy very quickly found out that my mother had made that call and were very angry with her.
You know, I think we like really naively thought like, well, they're involved, like the doctors reported, right? The doctors understand this is happening. Someone's going to do something.
The placement was a disaster. They placed the baby with my sister's in-laws, who did not believe that she was abusing him, so they let her see him all the time. And it's very important to keep child separated so that you can see what their health is without the influence of the parent.
There was no police investigation. There should have been. There should always be.
My mom and I went and it was my sister and her husband and his parents and like four of his aunties and his best friend and his best friend's wife. I mean, just this like mob of people in this like little room in like the courthouse. Everybody got their chance to talk about how my sister was the most wonderful mother in the world and how could my mother and I ever accuse her.
Just like the meanest looks I've ever gotten in my life. Just people looking at us like we were just scum of the earth. It was just so awful. I remember really looking at my brother-in-law's mom like, come on, you have to see this. Why would we be doing this? We have known her all our lives, and she has this, like, long history. And, you know, my sister's just shaking her head.
And I was just like, oh, my God, she's like a cult leader.
My sister and I are less than two years apart. She was born in 80. I was born in 82, right? So I feel like we had this very happy childhood. It feels like a real bygone era now, right? They grew up in an affluent Seattle suburb. You know, we were friends with all the other kids on our block and there was like not busy streets, like a lot of like riding bikes.
They basically told her, like, ma'am, you need to get some therapy. And just this sort of soft, so it seemed like there was, like, some acknowledgement that things had been happening, but just, like, no understanding of, like, what was actually happening and, like, not a solution.
And I remember, like, the first Christmas without her was horrible. And you just think like, could this really be permanent?
And we felt so much relief because he got in touch with my dad. He wanted to talk about this, what had happened. We were like, okay, now he's seen it for his own eyes. Maybe Andy would see the Dunlop side of things. And he was expressing to us, like, I really want to, you know, I know Megan misses you guys. I want you guys to reconcile. I'm working on it. I'm talking to her. She's just so sad.
She feels betrayed. And he was still saying, like, oh, she'd never harm her child. She'd never harm her child. And this was just back and forth with my dad.
He had also realized as they'd been married for a little bit, the extent of my sister's financial troubles. And so he was also trying to get my dad to like help them out financially. And, you know, my dad was like, yes, I want to help, but you need to send me my grandson's medical records, which seems like a fair trade. And he just absolutely refused to do it. He's like, that's not appropriate.
It's not appropriate for you to ask for that.
I think a lot about like if I had stayed in my sister's life and sort of stayed wrapped up in all of this, if I would have been able to have any of those things because it had taken quite a bit of work to get back to like a healthy place after all that happened.
We played outdoors a lot, built a lot of forts, climbed a lot of trees. Just like such a dream, such a dream childhood.
She went into labor at like 24 weeks. That baby died. And she posted a picture of herself with that baby on her social media. So I found out about that. That got back to us. And I remember like my mother looked up the death certificate because we weren't really sure whether to believe that. But that was true. That happened.
They learned that after she lost the baby... Right after that, she got pregnant with my niece. So seven months after losing the baby, she has another baby, again at 24 weeks. This baby, my niece, survives, but is in the hospital. You know, obviously a baby born that early is going to be in the hospital for a while.
That was until... A family member reaches out to us because my niece is on the, like, you know, hospital's fundraising pages have, like, stories of kids that are sick and are at the hospital a lot. And my niece was on that page.
And it was like this, you know, laundry list of like all the things all the time. You know, she spent most of her life in the hospital. She's had, you know, this, she has these many pokes a day, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But when I was a kid, I was not really the kid that would just like go up to a person and be like, hello. And my sister always was that person, right? She just always seemed to have a really easy time connecting with people. She seemed like especially good at relationships.
She'd, like, been in the news, been doing some fundraising here and there. You know, like, she'd been in a couple articles about, oh, this mom that has these two children, you know, who have all these issues. At that point, my dad sent a letter to the hospital letting them know about, like, the history because this was, like, at a different hospital than had treated my nephew.
And at this point, I really told my parents. I was like, you know, I don't want to hear updates anymore. Like, there's nothing I can do about any of this. It's so upsetting to learn about these things and to see, you know, her in the news and all this stuff. And I was like, I don't want to know until something major happens. Like, I just don't want to know anymore.
Not long after that, I got a phone call from my dad saying that he had heard from a police detective and that Megan was being investigated, this time for her younger daughter.
They caught her disposing of anticoagulant medication that her daughter was supposed to get, like covering it on the bedsheets, and then her daughter got a life-threatening blood clot and ended up in the PICU. I think at that point we thought, okay, like, not in a vindictive way, but they're going to get her. Like, they've got it. They have such strong evidence.
My third novel, We Came Here to Forget, published. And that novel is based very heavily on my experiences with my sister. And so I did some press around the book, like before the book came out. So this is the first time that I'd ever publicly talked about my sister. You know, I was very like careful and guarded sort of with what I said, you know.
So I was talking about that family connection in the lead up to this book. And four days before the publication of that book, I was on my way to a friend's wedding, was in the car with my husband and one of my best friends. And I got an email from my sister's attorney.
It was a cease and desist asking me to retract my statements to Vanity Fair, canceled the publication of my book, canceled my book doer, blah, blah, blah, blah.
He included an excerpt from the family court judge who had just returned custody of my sister's children to her. So that is how I found out that information. Charges were never filed against her.
I later followed up with that office to find out why, in the face of such strong evidence, including a medical record review of these 73,000 pages of medical records that my five-year-old niece had at that time.
It's like you have the sibling code. This code of, like, nobody's snitching to mom and dad. So, like, if you're sneaking out or, like, pretending you were somewhere else when you were at your boyfriend's house. A lot of, like, girly secret-keeping stuff and just kind of, like, a sibling co-conspirator.
During that time, I met Dr. Mark Feldman, who is this tremendous expert who I've become very close with, who is a psychiatrist who's been, you know, studying Munchausen by proxy for decades. And then I became interested in how I could be useful to this cause.
That was the first time I'd ever heard from another family member who'd been through a case. And it's just like completely changed the direction of my life and my career.
I'm a storyteller. That's what I have skill set in. Obviously, at that time, I was writing, but I was getting interested in podcasting. And just thought, because I was a big podcast listener and loved the medium, and it was like, oh, this is a true crime podcast.
By and large, like people don't know what this is. They don't understand it. There's a lot of misconceptions. I was like, well, this is something like I can be helpful with. I know the media because I'm a publicist, I'm a writer. I can tell these stories. Didn't want to present myself as some kind of like objective journalist that's just like found this topic interesting, right?
This would be totally disingenuous.
One of the stories I really connected with as I was learning that there were other stories, right, about this was a Hope Ybarra case because it had all of these similarities to my family's case in that Hope Ybarra had been this very intelligent, very promising woman.
And she also had this family that had been very close and really took the same series of events where they uncovered some of Hope's very large deceptions. And then her mother became concerned about her granddaughter and called one of the granddaughter's doctors.
Hope had also had a fake pregnancy. It had also been twin girls. It was just these things where I was like, are they talking to each other? I mean, like just where you feel, and I get this feeling all the time looking at cases where you feel like there is this just playbook, right? The pattern of abuse is so strong. The premature births, the feeding interventions, like this strong, strong pattern.
And so I felt so drawn to this storytelling.
So I ended up interviewing, you know, her husband, Fabian, and then her father, Paul, her sister, her younger sister, Robin, which was the very, very first interview I ever did. And then her brother, Nick, you know, we ended up going down to Fort Worth to meet with their family. And I just loved them so much. I mean, they were just the sweetest people and they clearly had really loved Hope.
And especially, I mean, you know, talking to Robin, who was the younger sister, just like that we'd had such a similar experience. It was just an extraordinary kind of journey to go on because you're just like, oh my God, I've never talked to another person that's ever been through anything like this. And then you're talking to a person who's had the exact same experience. It is profound.
Yeah, and then the show, to a hugely unexpected degree, took off.
I founded Munchausen Support, which is the only nonprofit in the country that is dedicated specifically to supporting families and survivors who are dealing with this abuse and also helping professionals.
My memory of it was that it was sports injuries. I have a really strong memory of this like weird plastic back brace that she had that she would wear.
I think a lot about what my sister's future might look like if her kids grow up and leave. And certainly I hope that someday I will hear from her children. I really did all of this because of them and part of what we're up to at Munchausen Support and building some kind of resources for survivors and really thinking about ways in which we can help survivors is also like I built that for them.
The book, I mean, that actually is a more natural medium for me because I am a writer written for novels. And I loved being able to put the cases so in context, put them in some cultural context, put them in a context of like, this is a pattern.
This is a, you know, this is a crime that like you can recognize and name and teach people how to deal with and just being able to give some kind of sort of proactive advice. And I think my message I always want people to take away is that this can happen to anyone. This is not race specific. This is not class specific. This is something that happens, you know, in other countries.
And it oftentimes, you know, some of the perpetrators seem like weirdos, but a lot of them seem like really nice, normal moms. It's just like the mom on the PTA.
I have some sympathy for family members that get caught up in this and end up supporting them. The perpetrators, because I've been there, I know how hard that is to accept that someone you love is capable of this. Just to accept that anybody is capable of this, I think is so, so hard. We're just all trying to like chip away until there's like a sort of breaking the damn moment.
And so that's sort of how I think about it. And just like every win, you hold on to every win. If the show reaches someone that needed to hear it that day, you know, which I know these things have happened because I just, I hear from so many people and then they end up reporting or trying to intervene.
She was saying she was having all this pain in her knee and they went in and did a surgery. And they couldn't find anything.
And it's not acceptable to remain in denial because the person who suffers for that is the child who has no voice, who has no say, who is depending on those family members to recognize it and to intervene.
I have a really strong core belief that stories are the best way to learn and to move people on an issue. There's so much noise and so much distraction and people are not convinced by evidence. They're not convinced by facts. And we live in this time of too much information. So I think like the human element of a story is like that's where we connect to things. That's what cuts out the noise.
And I think that stories can help us feel less alone. And especially if there's something where it's incredibly high taboo, where there's a high degree of shame, where it's this thing that's just in the darkness. I think the only antidote to that is bringing it to light.
There was an incident in high school where she was losing her hair all of a sudden. And that was very memorable because that's like a big deal. And you're a teenage girl and like losing your hair, which is like such a nightmare. So I remember hearing conversations about that and thinking like, oh, wow, my sister's just really unlucky that she has all these things happen.
And there was certainly, I remember in our teenage years, kind of a feeling of like, oh, there's always something like, oh, it doesn't get better. And then it's this and then it's that.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Oh yeah, like she's brave. She's stoic. She has this tough thing, but she's just like kind of persevering.
I was obsessed with magazines when I was a teenager. I was just like young people today could never imagine like the hold that magazines had on us as teenagers. Because, you know, I was like living in this very like sleepy suburb, which is like, again, a very nice childhood experience to have.
Yeah, this was a time where I was just like, oh my God, my sister is a college girl. And so like, I would go to parties with them and I had my little fake ID. So we would go to the clubs in Canada where they could get in when they were 19. So yeah, sorry, mom and dad. But yeah, we had a great time and it just seemed like the coolest thing ever.
I think those were some of like the easiest years of our relationship.
So it was a surprise to the family when she announced... That she wanted to do pre-med as a major and really started talking about getting into the medical field. But, you know, given that my sister was not a big school person, obviously becoming a doctor involves a lot of school. So I think it was a little bit like, well, all right, like, it's okay.
Better start maybe, you know, studying a bit more. And then eventually she dropped out of college and went to get her nursing degree. And I remember thinking, oh, this seems like a really good field for her.
It was horrible. And Megan started going to see him a lot. I remember thinking like, oh, I feel very scared of this. And it doesn't seem like my sister feels scared of it. And I remember just admiring that about her.
She seemed to be, like, really thriving in her job. You know, this is an office that I would go to. I knew a bunch of people from the office, so I knew. She was, like, very well-liked in that office. She had a lot of friends. Like, people seemed to really respect her. I would get in the habit very much of, like, asking my sister, you know, whatever, like, medical questions.
you know, was 21, 22. I was very much the era of the 10 things I hate about you, devil wears product. It was like, you're going to move to the big city and you're going to work for a magazine. So that's what, that's what I want to do is like, okay, I'm going to go be like a magazine journalist. And then, yeah, I look back and I just have to laugh at myself.
I'm like, oh boy, what a case of main character syndrome.
I had like all my delusions intact about becoming a published novelist. And so I was like, well, surely now like I know all these people in publishing and that will be easy. No, that is not quite how it worked out.
You know, in terms of what was going on with her life at this time, there was a bunch of stuff that I didn't know about that was happening.
Certainly, I think my parents were having some bigger concerns because they were sort of actively bailing her out of these situations. And sort of that was kind of my understanding of a lot of this, right? It's like, oh, you know, they're going to have to swoop in again. So I was aware of that and sort of aware of their relationship becoming more difficult.
I was pretty defensive of her with my mom and dad, right? It was just like, oh, you guys are just like so hard on her or whatever. I mean, they may even have tried to sort of like talk to me more about it. And I don't know that I was super like accepting of it because I didn't want that to split up my sister and I.
This is where stuff really took a turn. Again, my sister was working still as a nurse, and she had met this boyfriend who had a son. I think he was five at the time. They seemed like a strange fit. Like he worked at this pawn shop and the fact that he had a kid was like an extra sort of attraction that she could just be an immediate mom. And she seemed to slip into that role really fast.
And so we were sort of like concerned about that situation.
She called me to tell me that she was pregnant.
Someone tells you they're pregnant. It's like, all right, well, we're going to like move past this whatever thing. And at least for me, like, that's what I did. I was like, oh, who cares about that stupid fight we had, you know? And then the story that I heard and that my parents heard was that her boyfriend was going back to Tennessee where he was from because he had to go there for work.
And so he was going to be there temporarily, but like he was going to come back and this whole thing.
She's pregnant with twins, twin girls. So we're excited. I was thrilled about being an aunt.
She, you know, had a belly. She was wearing maternity clothes. We got presents for the babies. I remember getting like children's books from the publisher I was working with. And she had a bunch of baby stuff in her apartment because it was happening.
My very weirdest memory was sitting with her at my aunt's house for Thanksgiving. And she was like, oh my gosh, Andrea, put your hand on my belly. The baby's kicking. And I was like, oh my God, that's so cool. And I felt a baby kick.
And they said that Megan was in the hospital and that she had gone into labor early and she was about six months along. So, you know, it's scary early. And she said, yeah, my water broke and they took me to the hospital. And she, yeah, was just like really telling us this really dramatic situation.
And so my parents, you know, started scrambling to get flights back. I had to go back to New York because I was like, you know, some brand new job and like was very junior. So I couldn't take any more time off. I remember talking to her like in the airport. I was just sort of like get on a flight and then called her as soon as I got off and just was for updates, you know.
And then she ended up losing the babies.
And I was heartbroken, like six months in. Just devastating. And I knew how much she wanted to be a mom. And like, yeah, it was just really, really, really sad for her. And then Andrea alleges that... I think it was probably about a week after I got back in New York, my dad called me and said something to the effect of the story of Megan's about these babies is not adding up.
A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.
Yeah, you never can really anticipate how certain things occur to the storyteller when they hear it back. Yeah. We're operating from a place of these are individuals that have gone through a traumatic event and their foundation of trust and reality have been either distorted or destroyed and they're rebuilding.
And so it's really important for us to operate in a safe place of trust and transparency and sharing that is a huge part of it.
A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways.
And I'm Stacey Banik-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives.
So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
For the two-parters, a lot of them are like, oh, wow, this has a lot of twists and turns. There's a lot going on that we don't feel like we can pack in in under 50 minutes. So let's just approach it like two parts and gives us more freedom.
But let's talk about Hannah. Sure, yeah. Because sometimes I think it's just as much as like the twists and the turns of the story of like... you know, understanding someone's background, how they met the person that ultimately betrayed them, the betrayal, and then its ending and its aftermath. Sometimes there's like these incredible, beautiful scenes.
Like she talks about being on the train from DC to Philly. And I particularly love the fact that this guy was getting off in Philadelphia and she was like crying and she was hysterical. And this person was like, I'm sure there's somebody that loves you and cares about you. Like, and she goes, people are just the best.
And it was this moment of like... You know, sometimes if we're cutting a lot of stuff, you're missing moments where you get to just sit with the human experience. I just love that. Yeah.
Listen, I mean, this is how we fund the show. And there's like a formula that we have with iHeart in terms of like ad markers of when, you know, if your episode's X amount of time long, like 40 minutes long, there's ad breaks and they sell the ad space and we're forever grateful because it keeps us in business. So that's why we have ads.
It's $3.99 a month. And so if you want an ad-free experience... That's not just betrayal. It's a ton of shows. You know, if that means something to you to help support creators, support producers, that's the way to go. Yeah.
I have a lot of opinions on this. Great. I mean, I don't judge Tora, but it's fair to just understand the mechanics of it. But one of the things that Tora shared in her episode is she had very specific boundaries around her intimacy and her physical intimacy. And she also shared that... He was really embarrassed by this part of his body. He always wore a sock and he covered it up.
And I think just, you know, we talk about this a lot, like perpetrators, they'll find the right person. The people that are understanding and trusting, you know, it works because she honored his boundaries physically. Yeah. You know, when you trust someone, when you're coming from a place of believing someone, it starts there. And he was embarrassed by it. And he wanted to cover it up.
And she's already coming from a place of respecting intimate boundaries and physical boundaries because she has her own. I can see it. It didn't seem crazy to me. It didn't.
Hey, guys, it's Andrea Gunning, and this is our first bonus episode after finishing our season of weekly stories. This year, our team has been working hard behind the scenes to put every weekly episode together.
And the we I'm referencing is my amazing production team, our producer, Monique Laborde, our associate producer, Caitlin Golden, and our audio engineers, Matt Dalvecchio and Tanner Robbins. For this special bonus episode, I'm joined by my producer to answer some of your listener questions.
I wish we had these answers. I mean, Danielle's a mom of six that's homeschooling and managing all of those children every day and is just focused on keeping the family afloat and is like just trying to keep her head above water. I don't think she even knows the extent of what he was doing. I genuinely I don't I don't get the sense that she knows the full extent.
I mean, before we even started producing season one, my producer for the narrative limited run series, Carrie Hartman and I were reading Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell. We went to go see him speak at the University of Pennsylvania.
And we were both really interested in this whole concept of default to truth, which is a concept that you're more likely to believe someone is telling you the truth than assuming that they're lying to you. And then especially when it comes to strangers, people are generally bad at detecting when someone's lying to you.
And I think sometimes we often worry about how did you not know then the reality of this person did a bad thing. There are bad people. People like Danielle's husband that are doing bad things. And I think your assumption is my husband isn't capable of kidnapping two elderly people from our church and putting them in a dungeon. Yeah. We're not necessarily wired to do that line of thinking.
Even if your husband is out late, it's like maybe worst case scenario, he's blowing off steam in the car and driving around and you're not going to my husband's kidnapping somebody. Like, let's really talk about the reality here. It's just not just more often than not, you're rationalizing.
And you're bringing in your historical information of the person that you think that they are based on a lifetime of experience and just evidence. And then you're making assumptions. And so... It was important for us when we did this show, especially when we started Jen's season, to really explore this because these stories are born out of the scenarios where people didn't see it.
People didn't see red flags.
I'm so excited to jump in. I actually want to start with a question for you. Yeah, go for it. You know, this has been an evolving journey just from the format and how we're approaching our interviews. So I just wanted to ask, what has it been like?
I know exactly what you're talking about. During Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, there's a part in her story where she's getting really sick. She's really ill. And the listeners heard it, picked up on it, and noted something very specific. I don't even know if I can mention it here just for legal reasons.
And then she began noticing other symptoms.
And like we said earlier in the episode, we go through a rigorous legal process. And all we could report on was what she was experiencing, what her symptoms were, but we couldn't necessarily name what the audience is basically flirting with because we didn't have any evidence to show. We didn't have medical records. Like, to say that that happened is defamatory.
And there are certain things like that, like, we just cannot do. I mean... He was never arrested. Mm-hmm. And so for Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, you know, she thought that something was happening to her. Our audience thought that, but we couldn't specifically name it for legal reasons.
We can't. Mm-hmm.
A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways.
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives.
So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
She had been dating a guy named James. And James was having issues with... who she was talking to, even at work. And so it was seeming like the walls were kind of closing in, like he was really controlling every aspect of her communication with people. And there was this moment where things really escalated. She took his phone.
She saw things in a hidden folder, very similar to Ashley from season two. And she saw what she would assume is illegal material on the phone that she felt like was CSAM, child sexual abuse material. She found a photo. I don't really want to go into too much detail, but it was disturbing to her and she couldn't get the picture out of her head.
And she felt like there was something familiar to this photo. And she like woke up in the middle of the night. It's like, I know who these children are. James had friends who had children and it could be their daughter's.
There's so much we don't know about the photo, first and foremost. Yeah. This could be a photo he found on social media and cropped, you know, because they were wearing bathing suits. So we don't really know.
What we do know and what we discussed with Chelsea is that when she ultimately went to law enforcement, she reported the photo and let them know, this is who I think could be the family who has children. Mm-hmm. And she left it in their hands. And that was something that we didn't include in the show, which looking back on it, we should have.
Yeah. That would have been that would have helped a lot of people. Yes. When hearing the episode.
And I know that, you know, Chelsea was fearful of retaliation from James. He threatened her with legal action.
And so... I think she felt safest letting law enforcement do what they needed to do. And she did the right thing by reporting it.
Great. It's always so good to see and hear feedback from the listeners, no matter what it looks like. Good, bad, the ugly. Like we really do want to know, you know, especially if there are like gaps in a story where people were asking. We either have an answer or you just taught us something that we didn't think about. So we really appreciate it. Yeah.
I've thought about that feedback from that listener every episode since. Me too. And we can't necessarily editorialize people's life path or where they are when we meet them. Yeah. But what I really thought was fascinating is being careful about the language.
Using the right language is really important. So I'm very grateful for that person to write in.
I can't believe we've wrapped the weekly series. I think it's been really successful, and I absolutely love this show. We air season four of Betrayal, the limited run, on May 22nd. Mm-hmm. It's about a woman and her family out of Colorado Springs. You know, we're going to hear that story over eight to 10 weeks.
And then shortly after that, we'll go back into the weekly series where it's a different story every week or every other week. But in between, so from now through May 22nd, we have a ton of really exciting bonus material that we've been working on. You've been working really hard on, Mo.
We have a great bonus episode with a woman named Dr. Kate Truitt, and she explains the neuroscience of storytelling and how storytelling can be healing after experiencing trauma. We have... listener essays that people have submitted based on our prompt, which is resilience in the face of devastating betrayal. And we have a woman named Andrea Dunlop, her story.
It's kind of like a regular weekly episode, but a little bit shorter to kind of satiate our listeners. So I'm really excited to see what people think of the content that will be coming out in the next few weeks.
I'm so glad everyone got to meet you, though. You're the nuts and bolts of this. And so it's really great for the listeners to hear the people that make this show work.
Yeah. So it's completely different workflow for seasons one through three. So Jen's story, Ashley's story, Stacey and Tyler's story. I'm in these individuals' homes. I'm in their towns. I'm with them. Like I just came back from a few weeks ago from Colorado Springs preparing for season four. And I was with her and her kids and her family and her best friends over the course of two weeks.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And you just create this bond and this connection and you really understand these individuals' lives. And I don't get that opportunity on the weekly series anymore. We don't have the opportunity of like eight to 10 episodes for us to really take our time. We are really boiling down hours and hours of interview into a linear timeline. And we want to get it right.
This is one or two episodes where we have to like really do it in a concise and thoughtful way. And it's just been a really interesting experience, like making sure that we honor everything that's important to the individual.
And we're actively seeing it. Like we're seeing individuals who have participated that are getting together in real time that live across the country from one another that really only know one other person that may have experienced a betrayal like them. Like that is so special and cool.
And we've only been able to really experience that because of the weekly series, which is diverse stories in a short amount of time, you know? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
This is one we talk about a lot. It is. We want to represent individuals who experience betrayal, like all different walks of life, right? Because it's not specific to any gender, race, religion. I don't think that men are being deceived or betrayed less.
I just think that there's a stigma around that vulnerability and like sharing that may relate more to how men process that trauma and are willing to share that trauma. You know, we find a lot of the stories from our own listeners, like our audience who write in and our primary demographic is women. And so a lot of that's coming from the people in our community.
So there's a little bit of that going on. I'm interested to hear what hypothesis you have.
Yeah.
This is just like my armchair perspective. But shame is a huge deal when it comes to betrayal. Like, how did I not know? How did I not see it coming? I should have known better. I should have this. I should have that. And I didn't. And I put myself into harm's way. And there's a lot of shame and the reckoning that comes with that. And so I think you're dead on. Not everyone comes forward.
And we'll always have a safe space for men to share their story here. Yeah.
Oh, my gosh. We go through such a rigorous legal process because there's a lot of legal vetting in terms of pulling legal support, what's in the public domain, divorce paperwork, personal records. It gets filtered through our attorney a few times. But before we get to that, you have initial conversations at the very beginning.
Do you want to talk about that?
Yeah, that's huge.
Also, when we're working on an episode, we are running initial like broad stroke background information to the extent that we can. Just to make sure that we can kind of corroborate certain things in people's story, just like time and place, just make sure things are matching. Yeah.
Or as Heather Gay once said, receipts, proof, timeline, screenshots, everything. Yes, exactly. Yeah, maybe this is a good opportunity to talk more about our production process.
So you do the hours-long interviews and then you... have a really good understanding from meeting with the storytellers and having the pre-interview of like what's important to them to share and the journey that you want to go on. And so you present me and our associate producer, Caitlin, like a ton of material for us to work with.
And we talk about each bite that you've taken out of the interview and how do we introduce it? Like how do we write into it? How do we write out of it? And we put it in a linear fashion and then we just write around it.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Once they got married, Alan and Jan were both busier than ever. He had a heavy caseload and would often work late into the night at his practice. Meanwhile, Jan was charging ahead with her master's in psychology, which eventually turned into a PhD and then a postdoc.
Alan wasn't exactly the romantic type, but life with him was steady, easy.
It was comfortable. Becoming a psychologist was Jan's sole focus.
They stuck to the same old routine as the years ticked by. Then, in 1984, 10 years into their marriage, Jan noticed a change in Alan. It started in November when she traveled to Arizona to be with her parents. She'd come down with mono, so she went to recover where it was warmer.
She stayed in Arizona for three weeks. When Jan got better and returned to Michigan, Alan seemed disturbed. He was panicked. She'd never seen him like this before. And he continued to spiral downward for months. And by May of 1985, they decided to admit him to a psychiatric hospital for a few weeks of intensive mental health care.
What did that mean? The phrase didn't make any sense to Jan.
He was having a psychotic break. Eventually, he was released from the hospital, and he seemed much better. But Jan couldn't shake the feeling that something wasn't quite right. And that feeling only grew as spring turned to summer. One day, Jan was gardening out back.
It was a small detail, but one that didn't sit right with her. Neither she or Alan smoked, and they didn't have a gardener or a housekeeper. So that meant someone had been standing outside her kitchen window, smoking. Jan imagined a stranger just lurking in her backyard, watching her through the window. She checked every room in the house, in the basement, all around the perimeter.
No one was there. Alan was at work, so she left him a message at his office. But he never returned her call.
Was someone casing the house and planning to rob them? Her mind went to dark places.
Alan explained that he wanted to show his colleagues this album. He didn't understand Jan's concern. Even with this explanation, she still felt uneasy, especially when... We started having hang-up calls in the middle of the night.
Jan didn't know who he was asking for, but every few days, this man would call back in the middle of the night, and every time... I said it was the wrong number, and I hung up. But nothing was more unsettling than what happened one evening in the beginning of July.
If one of these things had happened, sure, she could have chalked it up to paranoia. But the cigarettes, the photo album, the hang-up calls, being followed? Something was off. And Alan wasn't taking it seriously.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is our last Betrayal Weekly episode for a little while. We'll be back in May with a whole new season of Betrayal. It'll be one story told over multiple weeks. And after that, we have more Betrayal Weekly episodes coming.
Then on July 13th, 1985, Alan didn't come home for dinner at his usual time.
Jan woke up the next morning without Alan in bed beside her. He had still not returned. She called friends and family and co-workers of his. No one had seen him. So after 24 hours, she reported him missing.
With each day, she grew more and more panicked. He could have been in a car accident or a carjacking. He could have been mugged or kidnapped. After all, it was Detroit in the 80s.
Jan needed support. Her parents flew in from Arizona to be with her. But they weren't the only ones at her door.
Jan waited. A week went by. Then eight days. And nine days.
The detective was outside the building, waiting for her when she arrived. They went up in the elevator.
Right now, we're actively working on new stories. So if you have a story you'd like to share on the podcast, write to us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we have some spectacular bonus content, including updates on cases you've heard on Betrayal Weekly. We're also interviewing experts and getting their opinions on the stories you've heard.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
We can't wait for you to hear what we have coming up. Now, on to this week's episode. This is Jan Canty's story. She grew up in Detroit in the 1950s and 60s. It was an era of social change, a time when protests erupted across the country and people demanded equality. It all informed the woman Jan became.
Jan Canty's husband, Alan, had been missing for over a week when she got called into the Detroit police station. The investigators suspected that Alan had been murdered, but they didn't have his body. They'd been investigating his disappearance and found something surprising. Alan was well-known in Detroit's Red Light District. He was often there spending money on sex workers.
Jan knew her husband to be a bookish, bashful man, a psychologist who spent his free time reading.
Jan was incredulous. But with no other leads, she took the detective's advice to take a look at Alan's finances.
A few days later, as she was still making sense of the finances, she got another call from the police. They had more intel.
The detective explained to Jan that they would need to go to the morgue.
His body had been dismembered.
The detective held her up on one side as her dad held her up on the other. The experience was incredibly traumatic. Jan can't even remember who was in the room.
The detective snuck Jan out the back. Camera crews were waiting for her out front. The story had become national news. On the way home from the morgue, Jan laid down in the back of the police car. Jan could no longer deny the reality. Her husband was dead. And he was murdered by people she'd never heard of. And who were these people? Well, they were still at large.
Jan didn't want to look at the TV, but her dad insisted.
Their names were John Carl Fry Sr. and Dawn Marie Spence. As Jan watched the news, she found out for the first time who these people were. Dawn was a sex worker and John was her boyfriend. The media ran with the story of a wealthy psychologist being sucked into a dark love triangle. But could that be true? Jan still couldn't fathom it. And I'm still like, Al?
The man she knew was quiet, intellectual, earnest. Someone who'd get wrapped up in a world like this was a different Alan Canty entirely. Jan barely had the basic facts of the case. She didn't even know how Alan met these people and what their relationship really was. But she didn't have the time to look for answers.
After all, she had been followed. The fear and stress were taking a massive toll on her.
Alan had led a double life, one she still didn't have a clear picture of. She was deeply betrayed, but she was also grieving.
With Alan dead, there was nowhere for her anger to go. He couldn't answer for what he'd done. And to make matters worse, Alan had kept financial secrets, big ones.
Jan didn't know what possibilities were out there for her. She loves learning, but she didn't love school.
It took two years for Jan to get on steady ground after Alan was murdered. And during that time, she was still unaware of who her husband really was and what he had truly done. Then, in 1987, Jan got approached by a reporter. He was writing a book about Alan's case. At first, Jan tried to shut the book down. She didn't need anyone showing up on her doorstep again. digging up old wounds.
So she did. And through the reporter's findings, the other Alan Canty finally revealed himself. Here's what she learned.
All those late nights that he was working, he was really with these women. It was like he had a pathological desire to save women in need. So when his mother gave Alan $500 for his 50th birthday... He took that money and spent it on Dawn.
This was when Jan was sick with mono and resting at her parents' place in Arizona. Jan thought back to that birthday call when Alan started to cry. Originally, she thought it was out of concern for her health.
The guilt apparently subsided, and Alan continued to spend time in the red light district where he met Dawn. There, he wasn't the sheepish guy Jan had known. Even smaller details didn't square up with what she knew about him.
The other Alan spent his nights with Dawn at bars, and the reporter told Jan something that changed her understanding of the whole dynamic. Before Alan died, he'd been hanging out with Dawn and John for nine months. For most of that time, Alan wasn't paying Dawn for sex. They stopped having sex. They only had sex the first two months. So what was the point of their relationship? Could it be drugs?
If she could have dropped out of high school, she would have. So college wasn't part of her plan. She didn't even know how to apply.
The reporter turned to Jan for an answer. And in her gut, she knew. It was an addiction of a different kind. An addiction to being needed.
He liked having a captive audience.
Of course, Don and John got something out of this relationship too. They were in it for money. Jan was able to figure out just how much Alan had given them.
In today's money, that's nearly $440,000.
This was Alan's M.O. He got people to need him. But this time, Alan was mixed up with some very dangerous people.
Remember those phone calls Jan got in the middle of the night? The ones from the man with the southern accent?
Alan had lied and said he was a widower. So when John called the house and heard Alan's wife on the line, he was surprised. Then he got an idea. He could use that information to extort Alan, to threaten his wife, in exchange for more and more money. And they drained him dry.
Near the end, Alan started to see the writing on the wall. He was running out of money to give them.
That led to Alan's psychotic break, or what Jan had thought was a psychotic break. She remembered that phrase Alan kept repeating when he was in the hospital.
To Alan, Jan and Dawn were total opposites. Jan was the woman he transformed into something good and clean and pure. Dawn brought out his dark side. But when Jan learned more about Dawn's backstory, it resonated with her.
Looking for a little direction, she gave school one last try. She started taking classes at her local community college. And sure enough... I loved it. So different than high school. It was at community college that she took her first psychology course. It was a turning point. Working in psychology would mean helping others. Plus, she found it interesting.
Jan learned of at least four other women he supported financially. Jan herself had been that young woman with a lot of potential and no direction to go in. When she met Alan, her life changed too.
And now, for the first time, she saw their relationship through his eyes.
It's a strange feeling, especially considering that Alan helped her achieve so many dreams.
The very things she loved about Alan were the ones that destroyed him and destroyed her life. John Fry was eventually convicted of murder and the mutilation of a body. He served the rest of his life in prison. John served 10 months plus three years probation for her role in the crime. As for Jan, she wanted to get out of Detroit.
She's lived many lives since that time. She's taught and practiced psychology, traveled the world, gotten remarried. Still, she couldn't leave what happened with Alan behind completely. She continued to think about the man he'd been as both a victim and a perpetrator.
Dealing with this complicated grief and trauma made it hard for Jan to connect with people. Who could possibly understand what she'd gone through? But eventually, she found community in other homicide survivors.
Knowing people who shared even parts of her own experience gave her a deep sense of belonging.
Supporting and advocating for homicide survivors has become Jan's mission in life. We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
As she began her studies, she was eager to start a life on her own. So she moved downtown and rented the cheapest place she could find.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Still, as cheap as it was, if she was going to continue to live there, she needed a job. A friend told her about a psychologist who was hiring. He needed help typing up a manuscript. This was right up Jan's alley, so she applied. And soon, she got a call asking for an interview.
She went inside and immediately felt like a fish out of water.
But as she got off the elevator, her nerves faded.
The psychologist's name was Alan Canty. Jan had been expecting a man who matched the building. Someone intimidating, formal, classy. Alan was anything but.
The two of them hit it off. 20 minutes into the interview, Allen offered her the job. But before she left, she had a favor to ask.
Jan explained that she wasn't able to pay the exit fee for the parking lot. Alan just smiled.
In the beginning, Jan and Alan's relationship was strictly professional. After all, he was 18 years older than her, well-educated. He came from a wealthy family. To Jan, Alan was elite and accomplished. He was someone to look up to.
And I would talk about classes and what I was learning. He wanted to give her advice to be a mentor.
He encouraged her to transfer to a four-year university and get her bachelor's degree. And he helped her pay for college by promoting her to receptionist.
Alan started giving her rides home at the end of the day. He liked looking out for her and she liked being cared for. After a few months, Alan asked her out on a date. It didn't really come as a surprise. Jan knew they had chemistry. For their first date, Alan drove her somewhere she'd never been before. It looked like a rundown neighborhood, and it looked dangerous.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
As Alan pulled up to a house, Jan thought for a split second that she might have made a terrible mistake.
It was a fancy restaurant, one of the nicest she'd ever been to. And it was hidden, almost like a speakeasy. When they stepped inside, the place was decorated with real oil paintings, chandeliers, candles, and even roaming musicians. Jan was wowed.
They were enjoying each other's company. Alan wasn't a standout when it came to his looks or his charm. He was shy, awkward even. But Jan felt a real connection with him.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Their attraction was rooted in conversation. Jan had never had a relationship like this before.
And with Alan, she could. Here was someone on her level. They were spending all day together at work and then going on dates at night. Pretty soon, Jan could picture a real future with him.
They couldn't wait to be married. Just a year into dating, they had a tiny no-frills ceremony.
In the early 80s, she started her master's in psychology at the University of Michigan.
During this time, Alan wanted to move into a bigger home in a more affluent neighborhood.
And that's exactly what she did. Jan packed up her pillow, clock radio, and a suitcase of clothes. And she moved in with Alan.
The new home he'd bought for them was a Tudor Revival mansion in one of the most exclusive suburbs of Detroit.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When Jan agreed to move in with him, she only asked for one thing.
In a little over a year, Alan helped transform Jan's life. Before she'd met him, she was broke, living in a run-down apartment, searching for direction. Now, she was on the path towards becoming a psychologist. And she had a beautiful home in a wealthy neighborhood. At the time, she was grateful. But looking back now, she sees it all a little differently.
From her first date with Neil, she knew he wasn't a keeper. She had no idea he could be this cruel. Whoa, this is not normal.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
But Neil wasn't in shock, and he wasn't in denial. Tina didn't know it at the time, but this was something far more insidious.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When Tina Maya told the man she'd been casually dating she was pregnant, he became a different person. Neil Lawman started sending her callous voice messages about how the baby could not possibly be his. He even accused Tina of harassment. Regardless of his disturbing reaction, Tina wanted to have the baby on her own. She was sure of that.
So after his vitriolic messages, she drew a boundary with Neil.
No worries. As far as Tina was concerned, Neil was out of the picture. And I went on. Obviously, I had a lot to deal with. She blocked him and moved forward with the rest of her pregnancy. It wouldn't be her first time as a single mom. Tina's friends and family rallied around her to provide support. And she needed it, especially when the baby was born.
Her newborn baby, Josephine, was in critical condition. She had a severe lung infection. The doctor wanted to prepare for a blood transfusion.
But half wasn't good enough, especially considering Neal's history of cancer.
Instead of reaching out to Neal, she decided to call one of his friends, the only friend of his she knew how to reach.
And then while Tina was lying in her hospital bed, she got a text from Neil.
But Neil refused. He was not interested in helping the baby. He was more concerned with lashing out at Tina.
Up until this moment, she'd planned to raise the baby completely on her own without asking Neil for a single penny. But after he showed his true colors, she decided, You know what?
Bye-bye. She figured the courts could handle Neil and she and her family could move on. Luckily, her newborn daughter recovered without needing a blood transfusion. After a week of being in hospital, we were both able to go home. When she got home with Josephine, or Fifi as she calls her, their house was full of joy. Her son, who was eight, became a doting big brother.
Now with two children to support, Tina had to return to work just two weeks later.
One day while she was on her way to work, she decided to call the UK's Child Support Agency to get the paperwork started for child support. After they looked into Tina's claim, the agency contacted her with surprising news about Neil.
meaning that Neil was on unemployment. But that didn't add up to Tina. She met him at a tech conference. He owned his own company. She'd met his coworkers. She tried to explain this to the child support agency.
But the government didn't have records of his businesses or income. And that wasn't all.
Neil had three other children? What about his story of being infertile? Tina went into investigation mode, searching for business and personal records of Neil Lawman. I went all the way back to one from a number of years ago. In Neal's records, she found the name of a woman, someone who'd changed her last name to Lawman. So I was like, okay, that must be his ex-wife.
If she is an ex-wife, it might be his current wife. Maybe this was the woman he'd been married to in the States, but Tina didn't really know what to believe anymore.
Looking at the photos of two little girls, clearly related to Neil, made Tina's head spin. At the very least, she knew she'd found the right person.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Tina Maya is a successful e-commerce consultant in the UK. In 2016, a casual romantic fling turned her entire world upside down. It showed her a dark side of humanity. One that she'd never seen before.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When Tina applied for child support, she discovered a trove of information about her daughter's biological father, Neil Lawman. First, that he was on unemployment and claimed he was unable to make child support payments. He wasn't the high-flying tech guy he'd pretended to be. Second, that he already owed child support for three other children.
The whole story about him being infertile from prostate cancer was a complete lie, an elaborate deception from night one. When Tina began looking into Neil's background, she found the name of his ex-wife. We're going to call her Wendy. Wendy.
And his ex-wife had a story to tell. She'd been with him for 10 years. They had two daughters together. Then one day, Neil walked out, leaving her with a significant amount of debt.
Neil had claimed that his wife cheated on him, that she left him because he was infertile. He said she was still back in America. But it turns out, Wendy very much lived in the UK. In fact, she lived in the same neighborhood as Tina. Now, Tina could safely assume everything he'd ever told her was a lie.
Tina and Wendy agreed to meet for dinner, to talk in person.
Right away, Tina was struck by how familiar Wendy seemed. The two women had the same energy, independent, confident, and outgoing. Wendy had some important information for Tina, things she needed to know. You see, after Neil left her, Wendy found out about two more children, two sons he had fathered before her daughters were born.
Her story is also one of community. Along the way, she found a group of other women who'd been deceived and betrayed by the same man. Tina's become their spokesperson. And the spokesperson for a much larger story. Tina was raised to be opinionated and strong-willed.
Tina stared at Wendy, processing the reality that her daughter was one of five. How many more kids were out there? And what would that mean for her daughter, for their daughters? It was a reality Wendy had barely begun to confront herself.
Since Neil left Wendy, he'd barely spoken to their two young daughters.
Tina and Wendy ordered another round of martinis and talked until the restaurant closed. Before they said goodbye, Tina got an idea. Let's do something a little bit funny.
Neil started sending unhinged emails to Tina, to Wendy, even to his ex-father-in-law.
Allegedly, he'd been implicated in a multi-million dollar fraud scheme. And there was more. In total, he had 11 offenses and five convictions. But he never served any prison time. Like Teflon, nothing sticks. After Tina reported Neil to the police, she waited for an update. She'd given them all the information she had on him. And the officers said they'd call her when they made an arrest.
But months went by without word.
Again, that's just a theory. If the police weren't going to give her answers or justice, she was going to find them herself. So she reached out to Wendy. And together, they came up with another idea.
As the group grew, Neil tried to get it taken down, but Facebook declared it legitimate public interest. Through this page, they discovered that Neil was allegedly running quite a few schemes at the same time. There were lots of posts about his alleged shady business dealings. When it came to starting new businesses, the posts suggested that Neil had an M.O. He would...
And then there were all the women he'd ghosted, women he'd met online and started serious, long-distance relationships with. There was a diplomat he'd had an online relationship with for years. When this woman finally booked a trip to meet him in person, he said he would pick her up at the airport. But when she landed, he wasn't there. She tried to call him, and she realized he blocked her.
She never heard from him again.
These stories were bizarre. Was he doing it for the money? To resell the expensive hotel room bookings and concert tickets? Or was it all just one big game to him? Whatever the case, in every story, Neal didn't stick around. Instead, his victims were left to deal with the consequences of his actions. And some were never the same. Like one woman.
When she graduated from university, she traveled and spent years living abroad.
In her Facebook messages, she said that she woke up in a hotel room disoriented. She alleged that she'd been drugged and raped. She didn't go to the police because she felt shamed. Multiple women shared stories like this one. Their Facebook posts alleged that Neal was not just a con artist, but a violent man.
As the group grew, Tina continued to wonder, did anyone out there have a story like hers? And then another mother came along. Her son was now an adult, but she knew Neil was the father.
Their families knew each other. The boys never interacted, but they easily could have.
Through the group, Tina learned more about Neil's backstory, and it was revealing.
Like his mom, Neil also had his first child in his teens.
After that, it seemed like this became a pattern of his. And this wasn't just about having unprotected sex or fathering many kids. He was intentionally deceiving women into believing he was infertile. These women who got pregnant would be tied to Neil forever.
So how many children does Neil Lawman actually have? Well, four have been confirmed by DNA, but there are many women who believe Neil is the father of their children.
So the scheme clearly didn't end with Tina. The 13 mothers have become a kind of group. They've bonded. Some of them are even friends.
In the 90s and 2000s, Tina was early to adopt the Internet's potential, especially for commerce and online retail. She made a career working in digital sales. That ended up taking her to New York City, where she met her husband. By her mid-30s, they welcomed a son, Leo.
But of course, Neal's victims aren't just the women. Some members of their Facebook group are Neal's now adult children. Many of them haven't been confirmed by DNA, but one of them tried to find Neal. He told Tina about the experience.
Hearing these stories, Tina felt even more certain that justice needed to be served. And in talking to a police officer, she heard something that piqued her interest. This could be considered rape by deception. Rape by deception is a situation in which a perpetrator deceives someone in order to get sexual consent.
The victim wouldn't have consented if not for a crucial lie, like one around the perpetrator's STD or fertility status. Rape by deception isn't a specific charge. It's a way of arguing and giving context to a situation as rape, even if it falls outside the typical definition of rape under the law. And it's been used before in cases like Tina's.
For Tina, there's still a lot of work to be done around this issue. In the meantime, she's had to move forward with her life and focus on her kids.
Tina has learned to navigate some tough questions with care. For instance, her daughter has asked... Is my dad a nice person?
Tina and her two children have a strong little family unit. But now that's not their entire family because Tina and Wendy decided to tell their kids about each other.
Tina does worry about her daughter and how the situation will impact her as she grows up.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story? Tina has a really specific reason. She wants to warn anyone who's just met Neil Lawman.
When Tina was offered a prestigious job back in the UK, she separated from her husband and made the leap. Now her daily life was focused on work and raising her son. For Tina, being a single mom to one child felt manageable. She loved that dynamic.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When her son started grade school, Tina had more nights to herself.
In 2016, she attended a tech conference in London. That day, she must have met and exchanged contact info with at least 30 people, one of them being Neil Lawman.
Think party culture and spray tans. Tina's interaction with Neil was nothing special, just a friendly exchange of business cards. She assumed it was a professional connection. But soon, Neil began texting her.
I said, you know what? Why not? It was perfect timing, so they met at a neighborhood pub.
She talked about her son and her ex-husband in America, and Neil shared details about his past.
The reason his wife had left was because Neil couldn't have kids.
It was a touchy subject. Neil seemed deeply hurt by his ex-wife. Tina felt for him.
And before long, they found themselves in another bar, making jokes and inching closer together. She liked him. But she wanted to keep it casual.
They kissed goodnight, and Neil said he wanted to see her again. He was often in her area because he owned and managed a few properties there. He promised to text the next time he was in her neighborhood. And he did. So after their first night out together... He continued to text me. And then he would come over once a week or so. Tina couldn't remember the last time she had a fling like this.
It had to have been well before her marriage. It was just what she needed. It made her feel sexy and confident.
Tina was 41, and after his testicular cancer treatments, Neil couldn't have kids. Without the pill or using regular condoms, they settled on another method.
Over the next few months, they saw each other whenever they could. And Tina got to know more about him.
But when Tina tried to talk about the neighborhood where the school's located… Neil seemed confused, like he didn't know the area. But it had been decades since Neil was in school, so Tina didn't think much of it.
She was ready to move on. So she stopped responding promptly to his texts. Kind of wanted to phase it out anyway. So, yeah, it got a little cold.
She confided in a friend about what was going on.
She was pregnant at 41. Even though it was unexpected and unplanned, she felt immediately connected to this child.
Even still, it was a massive shock because the baby had to be Neil's.
But Neil was infertile. So this baby was a medical miracle. Tina turned to her friend who suggested maybe Neil would be happy about the baby.
Miracle baby or not, Tina knew that she and Neil didn't have a future together. Now she had to break up with him and tell him the news. Wow, okay. This is going to be awkward then. She took a few days to think and finally sent Neil a message. So I said, I need to talk to you.
She didn't know how he would react, but she certainly wasn't expecting what happened next.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
In these messages, Neil doubled down on his story.
As the messages and calls kept coming, it got more personal.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Hannah had just found out that her husband had been having an affair with her best friend. In a 24-hour period, she confronted both of them, asked for a divorce, and launched a novel. It had been one of the longest days of Hannah's life. And then, at 3 a.m., the phone rang. It was her husband, Patrick.
He told Hannah that their marriage could survive this. All the while Trish, the woman he said he loved just hours before, was in the next room. It was clear to Hannah that no matter what promises Patrick made... He was going to continue seeing her again. Hannah told Patrick to give her space. So Patrick stayed in New York to figure things out. And he stayed with Trish.
Meanwhile, Hannah had to keep going. She needed to keep promoting her book. The next morning, she left for D.C. for another book reading. But now, she was having trouble holding it all together.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
It was a moment of kindness when she needed it the most. After D.C., Hannah finally went back home to Kentucky. And as promised, she saw a divorce attorney right away. Patrick was in denial.
But eventually, Patrick had to come back to Kentucky because... He still had a job at the same school where I was working. It was difficult to fully disentangle their lives. For 10 years, they built their worlds around each other.
Even though she was putting one foot in front of the other, she was taking the divorce really hard. Patrick had been her person. She missed him. And she didn't have the luxury of space from him. She still ran into him on campus. So a few months after the divorce was finalized, they started grabbing coffee.
It felt a little like those early days, when the two of them were just friends playing Scrabble in coffee shops. They would talk about how things were going in their careers. As months went by, they even began talking about their new relationships. Hannah started dating another professor at their university, and Patrick remained with Trish.
One time, he invited Hannah to grab drinks with him and Trish.
Looking back, she's still confused as to why she said yes. Because practically no time had passed between their divorce and their friendship. And soon, boundaries began to blur. Patrick started making a lot of requests of Hannah. Once, in the middle of the night, he called her on a drive. He was on his way to see Trish.
It was an unhealthy friendship, but it did have one rule. Hannah made Patrick promise that if things ever got serious with him and Trish, he would tell her.
It felt manipulative, cowardly, and it was hurting her. She was finally ready to cut him off. Throughout their whole separation, Hannah seemed to be doing really well.
She would smile and agree. But in reality, that couldn't be further from the truth.
Hannah's writing also took a hit. She was under contract to write a fourth novel. It was the first time in her career where she couldn't meet her deadlines.
Her doctor was the first person to notice that Hannah wasn't doing as well as she said.
She recommended that Hannah see a therapist. And Hannah knew she was right. So for the next year, Hannah threw herself into therapy and had some major breakthroughs. She'd been so isolated as a child that she never learned how to build healthy relationships.
It had been three years since the divorce, and she was still with that professor at her university. This relationship also helped her heal. He had a young daughter, and together they formed a little family.
During COVID, Hannah had more time than ever to focus on her writing and to reflect on her divorce. But she wasn't writing her usual fiction. New ideas just weren't coming to her. Instead, she kept revisiting real conversations.
So she started writing it all down. Every conversation she couldn't get out of her head. Memories of Trish from early days of their friendship. Things she'd wish she'd said to Patrick, or that Patrick had said to her. Scenes from the life they'd built and knocked down together.
She named the book, We Are Too Many, a memoir, kind of. She wanted it to be an honest attempt at capturing a marriage gone wrong. If she was going to write about her divorce and all the real people involved, she wanted to get it right.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is part two of Hannah's story. If you haven't heard part one, you should go back and listen to that first. It was the night before the launch of Hannah's third novel. She was crashing at her friend Hugh's place in New York.
There's no hero in the story. Every character shares blame, herself included.
She also made it clear that she was only writing from her perspective. These were, as she writes in her introduction, imperfectly recollected exchanges. She was only telling her version of the truth.
But three years after beginning her memoir, and just as Hannah was about to announce her book to the world, she got an email from her agent
Her husband Patrick had stayed with him the week before. Hannah and Hugh were up late talking, and out of the blue, Hugh made a strange comment. He said that Hannah should be more suspicious of people in her life.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hannah was about to announce her fifth book, a memoir about her divorce. Throughout their marriage, Hannah's husband, Patrick, had struggled to get published himself. He'd often relied on Hannah professionally. And now his first book is about the affair.
At first glance, Hannah thought her ex-husband had written a memoir too, a truthful account of what he'd done to blow up their marriage. Confused, she sent a screenshot to a friend.
In her book, Hannah was confronting her role in her marriage and its breakdown. She wrote Patrick as a real person, someone with flaws and strengths. Her memoir was nonfiction. Still, at the end of her book, people would know that this was only her version of events. But he was writing fiction. He was taking their real story and passing it off as made up.
Fiction writers often use material from their real life as inspiration. Hannah certainly did, but this felt different. She worried, how would he paint what happened? How would he paint her? She wanted to gather as much information as she could ahead of his novel's release.
The narrator of the story seemed a lot like Hannah's ex-husband. And the story was about him having an affair with his wife's best friend. He gets divorced and remarries. Sound familiar?
There were scenes from their real life, down to the details of his trip to New York and the phone call confrontation about their affair. There were also details that mirrored Hannah's career, the guy Hannah was dating, and even weird details, like how she slept with a can of pepper spray under her mattress, which the real Hannah did during her marriage to Patrick.
In the story, the narrator is in the hospital with his new wife. Their 10-month-old baby is extremely ill. While he's at the hospital, he's thinking about his ex-wife, who's just died.
The scene is pretty violent.
Hannah was at a loss for words. She was sitting at her kitchen table, reading about her imagined death.
As she always did in big moments, she called her sister.
Hannah could have allowed this revelation to take her to a dark place. It definitely concerned a lot of people in her life.
Her husband Patrick had an affair with Trish, her best friend from grad school, the same woman who set them up in the first place.
But if this was what he wrote in a short story, what was he going to say in his forthcoming novel? It gave her anxiety.
Who was she in this book of his? Hannah had taken great care to try to write him truthfully. How would he write her?
Patrick's novel came out two years after the announcement and a year after her memoir was released. She asked a few trusted friends to give it a read.
In the first few pages, she recognized the character that was supposed to be her. But it wasn't her at all. Like she said, it was a caricature.
To this day, Patrick insists that his book is entirely fictional.
And at the same time, there's a clear connection between their two books. When someone searches for Patrick or his books on Amazon, Hannah's book is one of the top results. Hannah doesn't know for sure, but she wonders if that was an intentional move by his team.
Instead of staying angry, Hannah decided to do what she does best, write. And so she flipped the script.
When Patrick wrote his novel, he reduced Hannah to a two-dimensional character, a cartoon. It was infuriating and humiliating. And she decided to use those emotions to write.
Pretty soon, the book took on a life of its own.
The book falls somewhere in between fiction and nonfiction in a genre called autofiction. Hannah actually got the idea to pursue autofiction from her ex-husband.
Autofiction is rooted in real people and real events, but it gives writers the freedom to play with reality for the sake of a compelling story.
Unlike Patrick, she was explicit with her readers about drawing on true events. For example, in her new book, a woman named Hannah is living with her boyfriend and his daughter, just as she does in real life.
Hannah thinks a lot about these ethical questions around shared memories.
Out of all the people he could have cheated with, he chose Trish, Hannah's first true friend, her confidant. But Trish chose Patrick too.
Today, Hannah's doing much better. She's in recovery from her eating disorder. It's still something she carries with her.
In many ways, she now feels grateful for what she went through.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
On the next episode of Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
She thought back to the early days of their friend group, like that night when Trish reminded Hannah that Trish and Patrick were friends first. But Hannah had never worried about Trish and Patrick's dynamic.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Now Hannah was questioning everything she knew about the two most important people in her life. It was devastating. But sitting in Hugh's apartment, Hannah was numb.
Hannah told her sister everything she knew and then went right into planning mode.
She needed to compartmentalize and be alone. She hung up the phone and walked back down to Hugh's apartment.
Tomorrow was a big day. She just needed to get through the night. She went to bed still trying to wrap her head around the news.
It was 6.05 in the morning, and Trish picked up the phone.
Almost immediately, Trish could sense that something was wrong. She asked her what was going on.
Trish admitted it. She and George weren't really together anymore. So the week before, when Patrick was in town, the two of them slept together.
With that, Hannah ended the call. By this time, it wasn't even 6.30 in the morning. Hugh left for work, leaving her alone in the apartment. And it was around noon when she got a call from Patrick.
Hannah was surprisingly calm. After all, she still had her book launch that night. She needed to stay on autopilot. She didn't have time to grieve. After she got off the phone with Patrick, she kept moving.
She tried not to think about Trish and Patrick.
Trish wasn't the only one blowing up Hannah's phone.
And then she went to her book launch. Despite the day she had... The event went well. She got up on stage and read from her new novel, acting as if nothing was wrong. Afterwards, her agent and editor asked her to go out and celebrate. They had no idea about the affair. So Hannah told them.
No one knew what to say to her, mostly because on the outside, she seemed fine, good even. Still, she wanted to be around her people that night. So she went out with Hugh and a couple of her other friends.
All of the emotions, the sadness, hurt, anger, confusion, Hit it once. The floodgates were finally open. She was still crying at 3 a.m.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Trish was Hannah's first real friend, and their bond only grew stronger during Hannah's second year in grad school.
He had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Trish knew what Hannah was going through. She had lost her own dad a couple years earlier.
Hannah's other grad school friends just didn't get it.
Trish was dating a guy named George, a poet in the program. The two of them were very plugged into the live music scene in town, so they would often bring Hannah to shows. That's how Hannah met Patrick. He was a musician in a local band.
During this period, Hannah was often traveling home to spend time with her family and visit her stepdad in hospice.
But Trish insisted that the two of them should hang out. So she gave Patrick Hannah's number.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Hey, it's Andrea Gunning.
Like Trish, Patrick was confident, maybe even a little cocky, but they had a real connection.
Their relationship was platonic, even after Patrick broke up with his girlfriend.
But their dynamics started to shift after Patrick had a major surgery. It meant he needed to spend a lot of time resting at home.
Hannah would even bring Patrick along to check on her mom, who was now living outside of Charlottesville.
She started to see a different side of him. As they grew closer, they started going out with Trish and George.
The four of them were always out together, talking to strangers and laughing until the bars closed down.
She was finally living life. And she was channeling these experiences into her writing.
She was a good writer. She regularly submitted to literary magazines, and she was getting published.
And Patrick actually started to write short stories of his own. He wasn't in school or in their writing program.
The two of them would often spend Scrabble games talking about books and story ideas. Hannah also trusted Patrick to read her works in progress.
With these kinds of comments, Hannah started to wonder, was Patrick into her?
She wasn't going to make the move. She knew Patrick had other women in his life. And it was hard to tell for sure if the feelings were mutual.
Our season of weekly stories is coming to an end, but don't worry, we'll be back soon with more episodes. So if you have a story of your own that you'd like to share on the podcast, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we wanna do something new and exciting. this month, we're taking short creative essay submissions from listeners.
But she didn't call a cab. They kissed and she spent the night.
They were in love. Still, much of the time they'd spend together was in their group of four.
But eventually, the group's lifestyle started to catch up with Hannah.
She didn't like what heavy drinking did to her, who it made her become. And she certainly didn't like what alcohol did to Trish.
When Trish got like this, it would set Patrick off.
Nights would often end in fights. And even when they didn't, things like this would happen.
Trish wasn't being the supportive, encouraging friend Hannah had first met.
Instead, it felt like she was going out of her way to cut Hannah down.
The theme is resilience in the face of a devastating betrayal. We want to hear the story of how you healed scars and all. Here's the catch. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Okay, now on to the episode.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When Hannah started dating Patrick, her relationship with her best friend started to shift. It seemed like Trish always had something to say, and it felt like at times she was undercutting Hannah's relationship with Patrick. After Hannah graduated, a window opened. Her mom offered Hannah and Patrick the chance to live rent-free in her mother's farmhouse outside the city.
Moving into the farmhouse allowed Hannah to make writing her priority. She submitted more stories for publication and even began writing her first novel. To her surprise, Patrick wanted to do the same.
Other times, he leaned on Hannah.
But his success was limited compared to Hannah's. And he struggled with being farther away from town. It took a toll on Patrick.
Hannah's mom also noticed a change in Patrick. She once called Hannah during her work shift.
Life in the farmhouse wasn't working for Patrick. Hannah was worried. She knew they needed a change. That's when her book sold.
And the good news didn't stop there. On top of the sale of her book, Hannah was offered a teaching position in Chicago. Plus, Patrick was offered a spot in an MFA program in Boston. He could complete it and then go meet Hannah in Chicago. They decided it would be a great change, a fresh start.
Trish and George were also ready for a new beginning. By this point, they were married, and Charlottesville was feeling small. With big changes coming, the group became nostalgic. Trish and George were still Hannah and Patrick's close friends, and no one knew when they'd all be together again.
So for their last couple months in Virginia, Hannah and Patrick moved back into town to relive the old days as a group of four.
Right away, they fell back into their old patterns. Hannah always ended the night feeling hurt or embarrassed. But whenever she asked Patrick if they could cut back on time with Trish and George... He would say, they're part of my past.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Betrayals often come with a loss. On this show, we've heard stories from people who lost the love of their life or their understanding of who that person was. Others have had their children, their home, or their money taken from them.
Patrick was in a fragile place, and Hannah knew that Trish and George made him feel like his old self. So instead of demanding that they cut off their friends, she went along with it, at least for the time being.
It was clear to Hannah that she'd outgrown the group. It was a challenging couple of months. But then it finally came time for Hannah and Patrick to move on. He spent a year in Boston.
Through this big transition, Patrick was there for Hannah.
He was her champion. But when it came to his own career, he felt discouraged. He was writing his first book. Unlike Hannah, he had a difficult time getting published. So once again, his mental health took a turn for the worse.
It wasn't an easy time for Hannah either. Her second book wasn't finding a publisher as quickly as her first.
She said yes. Finally, they had something to look forward to. So they started planning the wedding.
Of course, Trish and George were there. Even though those last couple months together were rocky for Hannah, they remained the couple's closest friends.
The day was everything Hannah hoped it would be.
And then... And then her book did find a publisher. And she sold a third book right after that. She was elated. But Patrick wasn't.
He turned to Trish and George for support.
They made more of an effort to see Trish and George with vacations and visits back and forth.
They were always there.
Hannah also helped Patrick secure a teaching job when she got a new role at a university in Kentucky. The move and the job did little to help Patrick. And his dreams of a book deal?
By this point, they'd been together for nearly 10 years. Hannah was accomplishing everything she wanted in life. Meanwhile, her husband was miserable, and she couldn't help but feel that he resented her for her success. He was lost and grasping for any sense of purpose. She didn't know how to help him. Finally, Patrick was given an opportunity.
We've told stories about people losing their sense of self. But no matter the betrayal, everyone we've talked to has held on to one thing, their story. Even when they lost everything, they still had the truth. But then we heard Hannah Pittard's story.
The second summer after they moved to Kentucky, he was offered two prestigious writing residencies.
It would mean a lot of time apart. But Hannah thought this was good for Patrick and for their relationship. Besides, she'd be traveling a lot that summer, promoting her third book. She told Patrick to go.
Between France and his next residency in the States, Patrick had a week off and he spent it in New York visiting old friends.
And that's what happened. Or so Hannah was told. The week after Patrick went to his second residency, Hannah needed to be in New York for her book launch. She was going to crash with her friend Hugh, just like Patrick had the week before. She got in a day early, and the night before her book launch, she and Hugh stayed up late talking. Randomly, they got on the topic of jealousy.
She didn't know where this was coming from. But Hugh seemed serious. Like he had something he needed to say. Like he was trying to tell her something.
She knew the question she really wanted to ask. She was just afraid of Hugh's answer.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Today, Hannah is an accomplished author. Stories have always been a big part of who she is. When she was little, Hannah's family lived on a farm outside of Atlanta. There, her imagination would run wild.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. This is an iHeart Podcast.
But it wasn't a wonderful time for everyone. When she was in elementary school, Hannah's parents began a bitter divorce. Hannah was the youngest of three, and at first the siblings all had each other. But eventually, her older siblings went off to boarding school, and Hannah was left at home in the middle of her parents' custody battle.
That's when she started writing stories of her own.
Writing felt exciting. It allowed her to get lost in worlds of her own creation. But in her real life, Hannah was lonely. So she asked her parents to send her to boarding school. She thought it would be her chance to start over, to reinvent herself.
Hannah chose Deerfield Academy, a school known for its challenging academics. It was cutthroat, but Hannah hardly noticed.
By 10th grade, Hannah developed an eating disorder. And as a note to listeners, we're going to talk about some details of her experience. For Hannah, controlling food was a way for her to feel a false sense of control. It only made the divide between her and her peers grow wider.
She kept her head down and focused on her studies, especially her English and creative writing classes.
For college, she went to the University of Chicago and got her degree in English.
Pursuing a real writing career terrified her, but she dreamed of a master's degree in fiction writing. So she sent in a few half-hearted applications.
She spent the next year honing her craft as best she could.
She packed up her life and headed to Charlottesville. And she made a promise to herself, the same one she'd made before boarding school.
From her first day in the program, that vision felt within reach.
Trish was the second year in the program.
Trish was everything Hannah was not. And Hannah wanted to make a good first impression.
So when she introduced herself to the group, she turned bright red. And Trish noticed.
That day was a new beginning for Hannah. She was starting to have the social life she'd always wanted.
And at all these events, Hannah would watch Trish command the room.
Trish started calling Hannah to hang out, and her confidence began to rub off on Hannah. For so long, Hannah had been trying to make herself small, emotionally and physically. For instance, she would only wear sports bras.
But Trish inspired Hannah to make a change.
Trish liked to go out. It was something Hannah hadn't really done before. But pretty quickly, she realized she liked it too.
Over time, Hannah began distancing herself from the other first years, and she was spending more and more nights with Trish.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Before long, his career began bumping up against their relationship.
Abby nicknamed him the Commander. It was a joke at first, but it stuck. Because Richard couldn't seem to escape his career.
This was jarring for Abby, and she demanded a reason why they were being followed. To her surprise, the commander began revealing some details about his career.
He had been recruited to be the head doctor for prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. This was the mid-2000s, at the height of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The commander explained that there was intense infighting with personnel at Guantanamo. It had to do with classified information that wasn't being delivered up the chain. That's why he was being protected by men in black SUVs.
Abby tried to play it down, to act casual. But this was a big disclosure.
I was just like, this is absurd. She wasn't even sure if she believed his story about the Secret Service. But then one day, his son called from California.
Now Abby needed answers. What had really happened at Guantanamo?
Eventually, Richard confided in her.
This was 2008. At the time, the military claimed to be actively searching for bin Laden. So him being held at Guantanamo just didn't make sense.
Hey, it's Andrea Gunning. Our season of weekly stories is coming to an end, but don't worry, we'll be back soon with more episodes. So if you have a story of your own that you'd like to share on the podcast, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we want to do something new and exciting. This month, we're taking short creative essay submissions from listeners.
Abby's new boyfriend, Richard, made some pretty surprising claims. Biggest of all, that Osama bin Laden was being held at Guantanamo and that he had treated bin Laden for medical issues. This was the early 2000s and bin Laden was one of the biggest fugitives on the planet. So Richard's story was hard to believe.
The theme is resilience in the face of a devastating betrayal. We want to hear the story of how you healed scars and all. Here's the catch. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Okay, now on to the episode.
But Abby knew for a fact that the commander worked in the Navy with a very high security clearance at that. She'd met some of his colleagues. So like a good journalist, she wanted to verify the commander's claim.
So she started asking around, using vague details.
She doubted the story but wasn't prepared to write it off entirely. Even if there was a remote possibility it could be true, it would be the biggest story in the world. And as someone who wanted to be a war reporter, that was undeniably enticing. She hit a dead end trying to fact-check the Bin Laden story. So instead, she decided to fact-check Richard. She started with one time when he said...
If that checked out, Richard's other classified projects could exist as well. Abby realized she couldn't fact-check the Bin Laden story. And after Richard shared that, he never talked about it again. He wanted a relationship separate from work. After all, the rest of his life was pretty tame.
So it just seems kind of normal. And he met her family. Abby introduced him to her mom. He was a Jewish doctor. What's not to like? As their lives began to merge, Abby was ready to bring up a big topic of her own. I wanted to adopt.
That conversation brought their relationship to a new level. It was like an unspoken marriage proposal.
After six months together, Richard officially proposed. She said yes. It's true, the ring was nothing extravagant, but they both knew they wanted to be together. And in keeping with their low-key attitude, Abby began planning for a small wedding, maybe the next year. They weren't in a rush.
They made plans to move in together in Washington, D.C.
The apartment was being paid for by the Navy, but even still, Abby didn't like the Watergate or DC.
It didn't help that the commander was always traveling for work.
And when he came home, he struggled to keep his eyes open. He's a drag.
She chalked it up to him being a bit older and traveling so much for work. But Abby still had her mindset on the future.
As time went on, Richard wasn't so into the idea.
He was changing. He wasn't the accommodating and doting man she'd met. That guy was rarely around. And one day...
Maybe he was stressed out with work or maybe he was having cold feet. Shortly after this conversation, Abby confided in her mom.
Abby was defensive in the moment, but her mom's suspicion rubbed off on her.
One night at dinner with Abby's parents, the commander made a big show of complimenting a meal.
They don't care. But as soon as they were alone, he told Abby the exact opposite.
That small lie about the Brussels sprouts broke something inside of Abby. It was proof that he felt the need to compulsively lie. She was disgusted with him, but she wasn't prepared to call off the wedding. That was until a few weeks later.
Richard had told Abby that his kids knew and that they were happy about it.
And now she had proof of a very consequential lie.
That night, she called off the engagement and the timing turned out to be pretty convenient.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
So Abby packed up and moved back to New York.
And I finished my degree. In the wake of the breakup, Abby second-guessed herself. I felt bad.
A few months after the breakup, she was in D.C. for school. And one night, she was in a cab driving by the Watergate.
She told Richard she needed to get a few things she left behind. So he let her up.
It wasn't just the cookbooks.
There was no way he moved out of the apartment and put a tiny, used-up sliver of soap back in the exact same place, stuck to the same bath tile.
That's Abby Ellen. She's an independent journalist for outlets like The New York Times and Washington Post.
She knew he was a liar. But how big of a liar? She wouldn't find out for another year and a half.
Storytelling comes naturally to her. Even as a kid.
Abby hadn't talked to Richard in over a year. When a DC number cold-called her, she assumed it was him. But to her surprise, it was a special agent with NCIS, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.
Abby's name had shown up on a list of falsified narcotics prescriptions. Scripts written by a Navy doctor named Richard.
To say she's curious is an understatement. When she was in elementary school, Abby was on a children's show called Romper Room. It was popular in the 1970s. On the show, the host would hold up a magic mirror, and through it, she would pretend to see straight into living rooms across the country. She'd name dozens of children who were watching the show.
I mean. The phone call didn't upset Abby. In fact, she was excited because maybe she was finally going to get answers about Richard. I thought maybe this is the culmination. Everything's kind of coming to a head.
It turned out Richard wasn't working with special forces on secret missions. He was actually a Navy doctor working at the Pentagon.
He forged hundreds of opioid prescriptions using the names of his co-workers and his family.
He'd been caught filling scripts at the Pentagon's pharmacy. It was a brazen scheme. What was he doing with all those painkillers?
Presumably, Richard was taking the pills himself. At least, that's what he later claimed to a judge. Abby thought back to dinners with the commander, the ones where he was falling asleep at the table. In hindsight, that was her only clue that Richard could have been taking opioids. So, I kicked into journalist mode. She tracked down Richard's ex-wife and gave her a call.
His ex-wife knew Richard had a girlfriend, but it wasn't Abby.
Abby would call one woman who told her about another. It was like a phone tree of Richard's ex-girlfriends. That's how she found a woman who'd been engaged to Richard. At the same time, Abby started dating him. And... Her name was Christine.
Christine never knew why Richard disappeared. Abby had the other half of the story.
But Richard's romantic con took an even darker turn. The last woman he'd been seeing was named Gail. Richard had been her college boyfriend. When Gail was diagnosed with breast cancer in her 60s, he reappeared.
He swept Gail off her feet. He even claimed he could help her beat cancer. After all, he was a doctor.
Gail was the last woman Richard conned before he got caught.
When NCIS informed Gail about the fraudulent prescriptions in her name, she was so angry she flipped on Richard immediately.
Kids at home thought she was talking directly to them through the mirror. As a kid, Abby knew the magic mirror was faked. And when she was on the show, she was determined to figure out how.
Gail passed away shortly after that. Her story is the one Abby still thinks about. If there is a hero here, she says it's Gail. Richard ultimately pled guilty to two felony charges of prescription fraud. In his sentencing hearing, he told a judge that he'd become addicted while he struggled to cope with his girlfriend's terminal cancer diagnosis.
Between that and his history of military service, the judge went easy on him.
After Abby found out about Richard's crimes, she began parsing out every lie he ever told her. Bin Laden, Richard never treated him at Guantanamo. The Secret Service wasn't following him or his kids. He had never been a Navy SEAL because Abby found a Navy SEAL impersonation expert who checked military records and confirmed it. And those screaming nightmares Richard had?
Well, the SEAL expert said fake nightmares are a common feature of con artists like Richard. Abby had been duped.
Thank you. She titled her book Duped. Once she got started on it, she realized it was about much more than just her own experience. It was about the experience of being lied to.
So that was my book. Abby never blamed herself for believing Richard's lies. You know... What's the worst thing you did?
Working on her book, she researched experts on deception, like Dr. Jennifer Fried, who coined the term betrayal blindness.
And she even explored the stigma around being deceived, that feeling of self-blame and stupidity when we've been lied to.
Abby turned Richard's betrayal into a story, a story for herself and for the world.
Instead of covering international relations, today she mostly reports on fraud. I think it's fair to say that it changed the trajectory of my career.
And thanks to her experience with Richard, she's learned a few things about herself.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why are you sharing your story?
And I was like, see, I got to the truth. Fifty years later, she's still that same person.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
That dogged curiosity has motivated Abby's work for decades. When she first started her journalism career in New York City... I could have gotten a job like in The Devil Wears Prada.
Instead, she got her start writing for women's magazines. It was the 90s, when magazines still ruled the media landscape. And Abby had to start at the bottom of the ladder. The women's magazines had you do, like, quizzes.
She wanted something more hard-hitting. So she started cold-pitching stories to the New York Times. And she finally got a story accepted. It was an expose on simulated military boot camps for civilians.
He wanted Abby to write for it. So for the next five years, she wrote a column about young people and money for the business section of The New York Times. She was in her late 20s. The stars were aligning for her career and she was building a life for herself.
On her mother's advice, Abby bought her first apartment. It was a loft in New York City. She had everything she wanted. Even dating came easily for Abby. Oh God, men were everywhere. Men were everywhere. In her 20s, her relationships usually ended because he was more into her than she was into him.
In her 30s, she dated more seriously. But none of the guys were quite right.
I wanted something that mattered. Abby had traveled the world, reported for prestigious publications, and made friends in every corner of the city. But there was one thing she still hadn't experienced. Again, I didn't care if I got married, but I wanted to be madly in love. She wanted to be madly in love. By the time she was 40, she started looking for love in new places.
After a string of relationships with struggling artists, she thought she'd try something more traditional. First, she went with the conservative Wall Street type. Then she thought... I'm Jewish.
On a lark, her friend recommended a psychic. Apparently, she had great insights on love.
But Carmela saw something in Abby's future. A man.
Around the same time, Abby was working on a piece for The Times.
This Beverly Hills doctor gave Abby a great quote for her article. We're going to call him Richard.
A few months later, she had to call Richard again to fact check the article.
Richard had been a Navy SEAL in his 20s, then left to go to medical school. After decades of private medical practice, he rejoined the Navy to work on special projects.
At the time, Abby wanted a new beat. She wanted to report on international relations. I was looking to do something different to expand my career.
Richard was a good source, someone who might have stories and connections she would need.
At first, it was regular updates about his job in the Middle East. And then we began talking more and more. They started writing to each other every day, and she learned more about Richard's personal life.
Abby had just been accepted to an international relations master's program. It was in Washington, D.C., where Richard was headed next. By this point, their conversations veered into flirtations. So when they found out they were both moving to the same city...
Their flirtation expanded into late night phone calls and surprise deliveries.
Richard was mature and accomplished. He was a doctor. Maybe this was the guy she'd been waiting for.
After months of talking, Abby emailed him a poem. So I thought, all right, I can woo. I'm going to send it to him. She knew this poem was his favorite.
She'd only been talking to Richard for a few months. But when she got his reply, she smiled. Richard was scheduled to be in New York the following month. Abby hadn't started school yet and was still in town. So they decided to meet in person for the first time.
He made a reservation for them at the Four Seasons restaurant. It's now closed. But in the early 2000s, it was one of the most glamorous date spots in New York.
On the night of their date, Richard met her in the lobby, wearing his white Navy officer uniform. As he walked towards her, she realized... This was the man in uniform, the one the psychic had foreseen. Richard even brought her a gift.
They walked into dinner hand in hand, Abby wearing his white navy cap. And at dinner...
That was the beginning of Richard's regular visits to New York to take Abby out on romantic dates.
When he met Abby's friends, he impressed them too.
Richard had two kids by his first wife. And even though he lived apart from them, he was still a family man.
And then there was his illustrious military career. He was constantly traveling for work.
Abby was the kid who needed to know how the magic mirror worked. And now with Richard, she wanted to know about his classified military projects.
Her intrigue turned to concern when Richard began having horrible nightmares. He would just have these screaming nightmares. And so he had to sleep with the lights on and the TV on. When she asked, he brushed it off. All he would say is that he had bad memories, things from the military that he couldn't talk about.
One of my favorite true crime podcasts has just been turned into a docuseries. Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. Right now, you can watch the Burden of Guilt docuseries on Paramount+. Here's a sneak peek of what you're going to see during this three-part series.
It was Morgan's mentor, the woman who'd been like a second mother to her. Kelsey hadn't spoken to her since that awkward road trip visit years ago. Joanne said she needed to speak with Kelsey.
Factitious disorder is the official term for Munchausen syndrome, which is when someone fakes being sick for sympathy and attention. Joanne went on to explain.
Just as Kelsey was finally feeling in control of her life, she got a Facebook message out of the blue. It was from Joanne, Morgan's mentor. Joanne had uncovered something that she needed to share with Kelsey.
Joanne had met Morgan when Morgan was a college athlete. She'd taken Morgan in when she was going through a hard time with her family. And Joanne was there when Morgan broke her wrist for the first time. When Morgan came back from the hospital in a cast, she told Joanne the doctors had found bone cancer.
This all happened before Kelsey ever met Morgan. Now, years later, Joanne was coming to Kelsey with proof that the story they'd both been told was a lie.
Joanne got medical records that told the real story. What was actually happening?
It was a bombshell finding. Refusing care and blacklisting someone from a hospital is a very big deal.
But according to the records Joanne had, Morgan didn't get psychiatric care. Instead, she went to summer camp.
After Morgan and Kelsey met, Morgan didn't need Joanne anymore. She had a new caretaker. The tension Kelsey witnessed between Morgan and Joanne when she saw them the last time was real. Joanne was starting to question Morgan's story.
But now, Joanne had the proof, and the two of them could begin piecing everything together.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is part two of Kelsey's story. If you haven't heard part one, you should go back and listen to that first. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
A key component of Morgan pulling off this deception was keeping people isolated from each other. If Kelsey and Joanne were going to find the truth, they needed to connect with other people in Morgan's life.
Kelsey went back to the very beginning, to the mutual friend who vouched for Morgan at camp.
Even parts of the story that Kelsey never questioned before now seemed like they could be lies. Starting with the letter Morgan said she received from the camp director, warning her that her eating disorder was interfering with her job performance.
Kelsey couldn't believe this fundamental part of their origin story could be fabricated. But the lie was confirmed when she discovered... She had never been hospitalized for an eating disorder.
Every new person Kelsey talked to had been told a different story.
One lie in particular was extremely difficult for Kelsey to accept.
Kelsey tracked down Morgan's siblings. That's when she learned her family had no idea about Morgan's cancer. And when Morgan told the family she was dating a woman, everyone was accepting of her. So who sent the hate emails?
So much of Kelsey's decision to support Morgan was because she had no family left. They'd all disowned her because she was gay. It was just lie on top of lie.
At the time, all of the intensity felt very real to Kelsey. From the hate emails to Morgan's symptoms, the fatigue, the vomiting. How could Morgan fake all of that?
Almost two years into a marriage with Morgan, a seed of doubt had been planted in Kelsey's mind about her wife's terminal cancer diagnosis. It started when they were home with Kelsey's family for Christmas. Her mom had survived breast cancer. And something about Morgan's behavior wasn't adding up to her.
Morgan didn't come up with the whole plan by herself. She had source material.
The Fault in Our Stars is a book by John Green that was adapted into a film. It follows two teenagers with terminal cancer. Some of the exact lines from the movie were things Morgan had said to her, like claiming that her cancer scans, quote, lit up like a Christmas tree. Kelsey felt like her relationship had been scripted.
Now that Kelsey had broken open Morgan's lies, she wanted to make sure that there were no remaining ties with her. She discovered there was still one bank account open that they shared. It was an account Kelsey never knew about, but her name was on it. In order to close the account, she had to move the money out of it.
There was $20,000 in this account. all of Morgan's checking and savings.
So she asked her friends and family what to do.
Kelsey had financially supported Morgan for years. When they separated, she took on $60,000 of Morgan's debt. Even after all of that, Kelsey decided to send the money back to Morgan. She was ready to wash her hands of the whole thing.
After nearly five years, Kelsey was finally free of Morgan and her deception. Liberated from the lies, the financial and emotional burden that she endured, Today, Kelsey thinks back on the innocent woman at Girl Scout camp who walked right into Morgan's web.
Before Morgan, Kelsey had never even heard about abuse in a lesbian relationship.
For a long time, Kelsey struggled to tell other people what she went through. Would they believe her? Would they judge her?
So how did she not know? Well, the short answer is that she believed a woman she loved. The question used to bother her, but now she understands where it's coming from.
When she does tell the story to other people, she notices her own shame.
It's a relatable experience. All of us can point to a moment in our lives and cringe at our choices. Kelsey's come to realize shame doesn't work.
She's had to reflect on her own part in the relationship, those key moments where she chose to stay with Morgan, even when she knew something wasn't right.
Kelsey was at a loss for what to do, but Morgan told her this was just part of the dying process. Her doctors told her to expect it.
Kelsey has cultivated sympathy for the younger version of herself who made those choices. After all, she was acting out of love.
There's a meta element to Kelsey's story. It was a podcast that helped Joanne and then Kelsey discover the truth.
Kelsey feels like it's come full circle. She's telling her own story now for someone else who needs to hear it. We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
Morgan recovered from the hip injury and went back to physical activity.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal, P-O-D at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
One day when Morgan was out on a walk, she fell again. And this time, she broke her elbow.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The broken bones became a cycle. After her elbow, Morgan broke a rib. She had fallen.
She came back with x-rays showing her broken rib. The doctors told her to rest. At the time, they lived in an apartment complex and they were friends with their downstairs neighbors. They usually went over every week for game night.
There was a cement wall in the back of their apartment complex, and their neighbor had seen Morgan behaving strangely.
Her neighbor saw Morgan throwing herself against a cement wall.
Kelsey felt like her neighbors were accusing her of lying. And the neighbor's story didn't make any sense. If they saw Morgan falling, why wouldn't they help her?
Regardless of how Morgan had broken her rib, she was clearly injured again. Morgan's doctor recommended she stay physically active. But to Kelsey, this seemed unsafe.
Kelsey went on a walk around the block, alone, for the first time in a long time.
Between Morgan's cancer, her constant injuries, working to support them both, and her graduate school program, Kelsey couldn't take it anymore.
That night, Kelsey made up her mind. She was going to transfer schools and move to a new city.
She was in a frenzy. Before she was even accepted, she made plans to move. Everything in her body was telling her to get away from Morgan.
At the time, she wasn't ready to share her doubts about Morgan's diagnosis with anyone else. I just felt like I didn't have enough evidence of that.
Still, her sister's words made her feel horrible. Because of this guilt, Kelsey stayed in touch with Morgan over the phone as much as she could, especially when right after her move, Kelsey needed emergency surgery for her appendix. Now the shoe was on the other foot and Kelsey needed Morgan's support.
While Kelsey was in the hospital recovering, she received a strange text.
The last time she had heard from Morgan's mom was before they'd gotten married. And that was over email. The emails where she called Kelsey the devil. They had never texted.
This was at odds with everything Kelsey knew about this woman.
The text from Morgan's mom opened a door to what might be a different reality. She decided not to tell Morgan about it.
After Kelsey recovered from surgery, she settled into her new city. She could finally feel the relief of being away from Morgan. The next time they talked, Kelsey asked for a divorce. And to her surprise, Morgan agreed.
So she let Morgan handle the paperwork. It was clear to both of them that their relationship was over.
Kelsey felt intense guilt for leaving Morgan. She'd spent two years taking care of her. She'd seen the broken bones, the nausea, the exhaustion, all of the medications. But the more time Kelsey took for herself, the more she realized Morgan was hiding something. What it was, she didn't know for sure.
Kelsey tried to move on and put this relationship behind her. She wanted a clean slate.
Part of that reset was acting like the relationship with Morgan never happened.
While Kelsey was in the middle of her emotional recovery, she got a red envelope in the mail.
Morgan had stopped paying her car payment, so it went to collections.
The notices weren't slowing down and the debt was impacting Kelsey's credit.
Morgan had blocked her, and their divorce still wasn't finalized. So Kelsey decided to take matters into her own hands.
Morgan told Kelsey with confidence that she had filed for divorce. And Kelsey believed her, trusted her.
But she had lied. Kelsey's lawyer had the proof. The time Kelsey spent trying to put Morgan behind her now came with a price.
Kelsey hadn't been able to reach Morgan. She had no idea where she was living. But she was clearly still alive, charging credit cards with Kelsey's name on them. So they hired a private investigator to track Morgan down and serve her the paperwork.
With the divorce decree in hand, Kelsey believed that Morgan and the chaos that came with her was now truly behind her. She wasn't avoiding it anymore.
You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.
I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.
I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.
You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.
Between the stress of school and the drama with Morgan's parents, Kelsey's connection with Morgan was fading.
The next day, Kelsey came home from school to find Morgan on their couch in tears. There was something she needed to tell Kelsey.
Just when Kelsey thought her relationship with Morgan was over, Morgan came to her with devastating news. She had bone cancer, and she was dying. Kelsey was no stranger to cancer. She grew up watching her mother's breast cancer go into remission and return again. It was a horrible cycle. And to think another person she loved was going through this was hard to fathom.
I don't think I got it at first. Morgan had known about the diagnosis all along, but she was just telling her now that the cancer had returned when she only had three months to live.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
So she sat down at the kitchen table with her laptop and a notepad to talk about what this would mean. Luckily, Morgan had some answers.
During the day, Kelsey would attend class for her senior year of college, and Morgan would spend the day at the hospital.
Christmas was a few weeks away. With Morgan's family out of the picture, they decided to celebrate with a family friend. an older woman named Joanne, who'd been a mentor to Morgan for years.
It was a relief to talk with someone else who'd been involved with Morgan's care. She was a great resource. For Christmas, Morgan and Kelsey got each other something special. We got rings for our wedding. rings for their wedding. Morgan wanted to get married to Kelsey. It was a legal and financial decision.
Morgan wanted the money to be donated to a library foundation. Kelsey was honored to help facilitate one of her final wishes.
Kelsey felt a responsibility to make sure every day was a good day.
But the days were still difficult, especially as Morgan's health worsened.
I'd be like, oh my God, your hair. This only furthered Kelsey's resolve to support Morgan. She offered again to go to the hospital with her, to be by her side as she got treatment. Morgan said no. She didn't want to be a burden.
After all, it was Kelsey's job that kept them afloat financially. As the weeks went on, the treatment seemed to be slowing the progression of her cancer, and Morgan hit the three-month mark.
This is Kelsey's story of building her life around someone else's lies. Lies that consumed Kelsey's 20s, derailed her early career, and destroyed her sense of trust. For many years, she tried to hide from the deception she experienced. But now, she's ready to tell her story. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
For the past three months, Kelsey had been bracing herself for the end, putting her all into caring for Morgan. It had been exhausting.
In her last semester, she earned B's and C's, and her dreams of being valedictorian were dashed. Instead of giving the valedictorian speech, she applied to be an honorary student speaker at commencement.
After she graduated, they finally had the time to plan a small wedding ceremony. At the time, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in their state, so they had to travel.
Kelsey drove them to California, with Morgan asleep in the passenger seat. Along the way, they camped in national parks.
The day before the ceremony, they both sat down to write their vows.
They delivered their vows and signed the papers in Sequoia National Park.
Being officially married was a relief. It was the final thing Morgan wanted to do before she passed away.
When she was a little girl, Kelsey's mom told her the origin story of their family unit. It was a survival story.
In less than a year, Kelsey and Morgan went from being 21-year-olds at camp to being a married couple, handling a terminal disease. Now they were committed to each other, for however much time Morgan had left. Kelsey had been accepted into a master's program across the country. Neither of them expected Morgan to be alive for that next chapter.
Morgan's successful treatment meant she had more time. She could take a break from treatment. But her cancer was still deemed terminal. No one knew how long she really had left, not even her doctors.
Kelsey didn't know what this meant for her plans to start graduate school. She barely got through her last semester.
Her mom and the three girls started anew in a small West Coast town. But the fear of her dad was always looming in the background.
She was worried about juggling her master's program and supporting Morgan at the same time. She didn't even know if she could handle that. But she decided.
They rented a U-Haul and began the cross-country drive. Along the way, they made a pit stop to see Joanne, Morgan's mentor.
It was clear something had come between Joanne and Morgan. Joanne said she wanted to talk to Kelsey in private, but they just couldn't find the right moment.
When they arrived in their new city, they had to face the reality of living alone. Kelsey found a job in hospitality while she started her master's degree. But Morgan was too sick to work.
Kelsey was only 22 and she was the sole provider. Morgan found new doctors. And now that they were married, Kelsey was paying for more of Morgan's care.
She became hyper fixated on financials.
But she found it hard to have open conversations with Morgan about it.
It had been a year since Morgan shared her diagnosis. Even though Kelsey was now paying for Morgan's care, she still wasn't privy to the details of it.
Nearly everyone in their new town was Mormon and their family wasn't. Their dad was Cuban. So Kelsey and her sisters stood out in a sea of blonde hair and blue eyes.
But Morgan didn't want to talk about it. She wanted to do everything alone. And that worried Kelsey.
The lack of information was becoming a real problem for Kelsey. It became a wedge in their relationship.
Without any answers, she was getting frustrated. She felt like she couldn't help Morgan if she didn't have all the information. That year, they spent Christmas with Kelsey's family.
This was the second time they thought it was their last Christmas together. And it was the first time Kelsey's mom was getting to really spend time with Morgan.
Still, Kelsey's mom insisted that something didn't add up. she was starting to feel skeptical about Morgan's story.
Before this moment, Kelsey had never doubted Morgan's diagnosis. For nearly two years, her entire life revolved around Morgan's health.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
Thank you so much for having me. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Her mom's survival story had another chapter. For Kelsey's entire childhood, her mom battled breast cancer.
As a kid, Kelsey didn't know the details. She just knew her mom was exhausted and was always going to the hospital.
Over the summer, she started going to Girl Scout Camp. There, she was allowed to just be a kid.
The women who ran the camp were Kelsey's idols. She wanted to be just like them.
As she got older and entered high school, she started dreaming about broadening her horizons.
Kelsey and her high school girlfriend kept their relationship a secret. It was in the mid-2000s, and they were in a mostly Mormon community.
So she set her sights on going to college in a place where she could be out and be herself. She was accepted to her first choice and made the leap.
But her family's finances took an unexpected turn. So after the first year, Kelsey had to transfer to a new university, one that she'd be paying for herself.
She worked to put herself through college and she started working summers as a counselor at her old Girl Scout camp.
By her third summer, she earned an executive leadership role at the camp, helping coordinate all the younger counselors.
Arriving at camp was a much-anticipated reunion, where she saw all of her closest friends again.
One of the new counselors immediately caught Kelsey's attention. Her name was Morgan.
She kept to herself and seemed guarded. I found her to be really mysterious.
Even though Morgan was only 20 years old, she'd been through a lot.
Morgan confided in her. Forming close bonds was a hallmark of the camp experience. They would be spending every day together for the next three months.
At camp, there were no cell phones, no distractions from the outside world. And in this bubble, Kelsey knew she was developing feelings for Morgan. But she was in a leadership role. And then there was this.
So they continued on with a supercharged friendship. It was a connection Morgan needed. At home, she'd been struggling with an eating disorder.
That kind of structure and vigilance around food was really triggering for Morgan. In fact, it was having an impact on her job performance.
The idea of losing Morgan at camp was upsetting. Kelsey felt a responsibility to help as both a friend and a camp executive.
About halfway through the summer, they took a day off together and drove to Kelsey's hometown.
Near the end of camp, Morgan's parents came to town. They were devout Mormons. And on that visit, Morgan wanted to come out to them. Kelsey drove her to meet them, to be there for emotional support.
Her parents' rejection brought the two of them even closer.
There was so much at stake, and Morgan was now left on her own. They made their relationship official. And when camp ended, Morgan couldn't go home. So they decided to move in together.
It was Kelsey's last year of college. At first, living with Morgan was a novelty. Even mundane tasks were exciting.
But right when the semester began picking up steam, Kelsey started receiving emails from Morgan's family.
They thought Kelsey brainwashed their daughter, and they wanted her to leave Morgan alone.
But Morgan was fixated. All she wanted to do was talk about her parents with Kelsey.
Dev felt like he needed to talk about it, even if he didn't want to. She'd had firsthand experience with veterans and PTSD.
As an 18-year-old, he'd been in the Special Forces in Vietnam. One night, he caught his senior officers using drugs. Fearing he would turn them in, the officers allowed Jeff to be captured. He was held as a prisoner of war, and for months, he was tortured.
He recovered physically and was discharged. But psychologically, he was scarred.
Deb was worried about his mental health, especially because his support system was thin. He was in a new place and wasn't in touch with his biological family. So Deb was happy when his siblings reached out to reconnect. They invited him back to Canada.
A few months later, they flew to Alberta to meet his family. They hadn't seen Jeff in decades. They were elated to welcome him home. And Deb never thought she'd get the chance to meet his siblings.
It was a good trip. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Deb didn't know it at the time, but everyone there was in on a secret. Everyone except for her. Her husband, Jeff, wasn't who he said he was. In fact, everyone in his family knew Jeff by a different name.
Deb and her husband went to Canada to reconnect with his estranged family. And to her surprise, the trip was a success. Meeting his family brought the two of them closer. But one day after they returned from their trip, Jeff collapsed on the golf course.
Deb met him at their house and forced him to go to the hospital. Jeff had suffered a major heart attack. It would require ongoing care. But Jeff still hadn't nailed down a steady job, so the couple needed help covering his medical expenses. Deb had worked at the VA years ago and insisted it was their best resource.
His explanation just didn't add up. Deb even considered hiring someone to look into Jeff's background.
She didn't have the money or the time to hire a PI. Shortly after Jeff's heart attack, he had a stroke. Then his memory began to falter. All the while, he was refusing to go to the VA. It financially strained the family, and Deb was at a loss.
Deb was his primary caretaker, on top of her full-time nursing job. It was overwhelming.
Deb had spent so many years taking care of other people that she neglected herself.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
Deb had just turned 50 and had been with Jeff for a decade, but life with him was becoming harder year after year. At first, he failed to bring in a steady income. Then when he became sick, he refused resources for affordable healthcare. Deb turned to booze for the stress. But one day, after a long night of drinking, she found herself too shaky to put the golf ball on the tee.
She checked herself into a 30-day rehab.
Being alone in rehab gave her a lot of clarity. And with that clarity came questions, specifically about Jeff. When she left rehab, she looked at Jeff's behavior with a new set of eyes.
She wasn't ready to leave the marriage. Her focus was on her new sobriety. But she did come up with a plan. To get some answers out of Jeff, she gave him an assignment.
She thought it would be a good exercise for both of them, and she hoped it could help her understand why he was the way he was.
He needed more care than she could provide at home. So she applied for him to be in a funded outpatient care facility. And he was accepted.
Deb Proctor grew up on the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. She recently retired from her role as the senior director of her tribe's domestic violence program. And before that, she spent her entire career as a nurse.
Deb was at work. She didn't know where he was. With his memory issues, she worried he could have gotten lost. So they called the police.
When Deb got there, Jeff seemed confused about what was happening. The whole situation confirmed that he really needed this facility. His memory must be worse than she thought. But shortly after Jeff's incident at the bank, Deb received another phone call. Only this one would change her life forever.
It was an international call, but Deb had a strange feeling. When she picked up, there was a police officer on the other line. And I was like, what is this about? The officer was Canadian, and he was investigating a cold case from 30 years ago.
But Deb didn't know a Ron Stan. The officer continued, explaining that Canadian police had been looking for a man named Ron Stan for over 30 years. He disappeared during a fire.
Here's the thing about Ron Stan. He was originally declared dead. But in reality, he'd been on the run ever since that barn fire. Eleven years into her marriage, Deb Proctor got a phone call out of the blue from a Canadian police officer. They were looking for Ron Stan, a Canadian man who'd been missing and later declared dead after an arson fire in 1977.
And they believed they'd found him in the United States. He was hiding out in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation, using the name Jeff Walton. When the police explained this to Deb... Initially, I thought it was perhaps just a cruel joke.
Like a lot of people in the medical profession, she developed a keen sense for when someone is lying.
She didn't say much on the phone. She just listened, writing down everything the police told her.
Canadian officials wanted to speak to Jeff, or Ron, directly. Deb explained that he was in a care facility during the day because of his memory problems. She confirmed their home address, thanked the officer, and hung up the phone in disbelief.
She debated whether this phone call was real, if the person on the phone was even a police officer. A co-worker who was afraid for Deb suggested another possibility.
So Deb went straight there. She wanted to know if the call she'd received was real or if Jeff could be in witness protection. An investigator took Deb's concerns seriously and started making calls.
She verified that Jeff Walton didn't exist. Her husband of 11 years was a missing person. A man named Ronald Stan, who'd faked his death in an arson fire and had been on the run for 30 years.
When Ronald Stan disappeared from his farm in rural Ontario in 1977, he abandoned his wife and two young sons. In order to escape, he had lit his barn on fire, killing all the animals. His family watched the blaze helpless, fearing that Ron was trapped inside.
Why he'd faked his death, Deb wouldn't find out until much later. In that moment, she just knew she couldn't go home, not to the house she shared with him. He was a criminal, a fraud, a total stranger. So the Cherokee Marshals helped her come up with an immediate plan.
She made an appointment with a divorce attorney for the following day, and a friend offered to let Deb stay at her place while she figured out her next move.
She met with her sons to break the news. And with all of their support, she called Jeff's son, the one he'd had in America, after he went on the run. After all, he was the only child Deb knew about.
He was named after his father, or rather, his father's alias.
The Dawes Roll was a list compiled by the U.S. government in the late 1800s and early 1900s. It named about 100,000 Native Americans who were allotted land.
When the authorities finally got a hold of Jeff, they questioned him and asked to see his proof of identity. He admitted to everything. In fact, he seemed amused. He made a joke to police officers, asking what took them so long. Because the arson had happened so long ago, the statute of limitations had expired in Canada and authorities in the US couldn't charge him either.
The news caught wind of the story, and it was a media frenzy.
Deb's niece drafted a statement to send to the press on her behalf, and Deb kept tabs on the news. That's how she learned Jeff's real-life story, the one he claimed he couldn't remember. A journalist with the Toronto Star had been reporting on it. Through their investigation, they uncovered a possible motivation for why he faked his death.
At the time of the arson, Ron was working at a college in Canada. He was having a relationship with a local girl who was much younger. The day he went missing, it seemed this information was about to be revealed. It's not clear how old the girl was, but the threat of being discovered prompted him to go on the run for three decades. Deb also learned how he pulled it off.
He did. In fact, he had two other marriages he'd never told Deb about. And after he found a woman with money, he needed papers to validate his new identity.
He used his stolen identity to find work and even collect Social Security benefits.
Growing up, Deb's grandmother was a constant presence and a source of inspiration.
When the story broke, Jeff himself spoke to the media about how and why he faked his death. And he seemed to revel in it. He sought that attention. He wanted to be a star. He said he chose the name Jeff because it was the name of his infant son he abandoned in Canada, and the last name Walton was inspired by the TV show The Waltons. It sounded like a classic American last name.
As for the documents he used to marry Deb, they appeared to be forged.
Like the arson, too much time had passed for him to be charged in the U.S. with identity fraud. And what about his elaborate stories, like being a prisoner of war in Vietnam? It's all made up. That's why he was so resistant to using the VA. He never fought in the Vietnam War. He wasn't even an American citizen. The POW story?
Well, he ripped those details straight out of a movie called Platoon, starring Charlie Sheen and his football career at Ohio State with Woody Hayes.
Deb was left wondering if anything he'd ever told her was true. Today, she doubts if he'd even swung a golf club before she met him. After all his lies were exposed, one of Deb's friends finally came clean about something. Remember the golf trip where Deb's friends iced them out? Well, back then, the group had discovered that... He cheated all day.
He cheated and basically stole a pot of money from Deb's friends. That's why they were never invited to play with the group again. Even his memory issues were a lie. When he talked to the press after the fact, he seemed to remember every detail just fine. So what was really going on that day when he went missing from the facility and was found at the bank? Deb suspects he was planning an escape.
She also wonders if he targeted her because she lives in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation.
One of the most baffling aspects of his deception is that visit to Canada a few years into their marriage. Back then, the reunion seemed completely normal. But behind the scenes, Jeff had asked all of his family members to use his new name instead of calling him Ron. They said they were so happy to see him again that they obliged.
There's clearly so much more to his family dynamics than she'll ever know. It still doesn't sit right with her. What makes it okay that you support this kind of deception? In the beginning, she didn't even know how to refer to him, what name to call him by, whether to call him Ron or Jeff.
In the weeks after his double life was revealed, Deb was emotionally destroyed. It all happened in her first year of sobriety. Jeff moved back to New Orleans with his son, and Deb was left alone in the house they shared.
In that moment, she couldn't get up. It felt like her world had ended.
Her grandmother experienced a lot of violence firsthand. Deb's father did too. As a child, his own father was murdered in front of him.
In the throes of despair, she gained vivid clarity.
Go on. She got up that day, and she's stayed on her feet ever since.
She took on a leadership role in her tribe as director of a program providing resources and support to victims of domestic violence.
In 2019, she got a call from Jeff's son. Jeff had passed away.
In the last few years, her life has taken an unexpected turn.
After all, she did make a commitment to being open-hearted. Her new husband meets her at her level. And he's put in the work, too.
She saw the impact of that on her family. There was alcoholism and emotional turmoil. And when she was young, Deb struggled to process it.
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to share your story?
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
From a young age, she experienced violence and abuse herself.
Deb believes her father's unresolved trauma led him to become a civil servant.
Deb grew up quickly in more ways than one. In fact, on her 16th birthday, her high school boyfriend surprised her.
But her engagement didn't distract her from prioritizing education. Her father insisted that she earn an advanced degree.
Before she even had a chance to know herself, she was married and working as a full-time nurse.
They had two sons together. But a few years into marriage, her husband's behavior became a problem.
She eventually left her husband and resolved to end the cycle of violence to make a safe and stable environment for her and her two sons.
She started going to therapy and joined support groups for families impacted by alcoholism. She was creating a better life for herself and for her sons. When her sons became teenagers, she looked around and realized, I did want a partner in life.
She was 41 and felt ready to explore a new partnership, so she made an online dating profile. This was 1997, back when online dating was a novel concept. Yeah, this ain't Bumble, this ain't, yeah, this is none of that stuff. One man piqued her interest. His name was Jeff Walton.
Jeff said he wanted to treat his next partner like a queen. Deb wrote him an email. He lived a couple states away in Kentucky. But their conversation flowed easily. And Deb quickly discovered they shared the same interests. They both loved golf. And Jeff wanted to hear more about Deb's Cherokee culture.
As they got closer, she got to know more about his backstory. He was born in Alaska and moved to Canada. He was a dual citizen of Canada and the United States, and he had a complicated relationship with his biological family.
Deb had seen her share of violence as well. She understood what it was like, so they bonded over their difficult childhoods. Jeff's family was still in Canada, but they'd fallen out of touch. He moved to New Orleans as a young man, and along the way, he picked up the accent.
Jeff's ex-wife and adult son still lived in New Orleans, but after his divorce, he'd taken a job in Kentucky.
Jeff was the kind of person who'd lived a million lives in one. He just fascinated me.
After a year of talking, they decided to finally meet each other in person. Jeff flew to Oklahoma. When he arrived at the airport, she was waiting for him with a gift.
And Jeff had come with a surprise of his own.
The weekend could not have gone better. Jeff wanted to get to know her world.
they started making arrangements for him to move to Oklahoma.
They spent the next year planning a small family wedding in the Ozarks. We married on April 23, 2000. It was the anniversary of the day they met in person. Deb's youngest son walked her down the aisle, and Jeff's son, little Jeff, flew in to support his dad. It was a true merging of their lives. I really thought it was meant to be.
They planned their first trip together as newlyweds, a golf trip with Deb's group of friends. Deb had been golfing for her entire life. Every year, she and her friends traveled the country to play. Jeff was eager to join. He'd been an avid golfer when he was younger, but he hadn't played in years.
And I was like, well, golly, great job. But Deb's friends were standoffish with Jeff about his win. And one of her friends was quick to point out... A real golfer is not going to leave their clubs behind... It doesn't make sense. Her friends had never acted like this before. She didn't know what happened, and neither did Jeff. But after that, they weren't invited on any more golf trips.
I felt like everybody was mistreating him. A year into their marriage, Jeff was still struggling to find the right job in Oklahoma. One day, when Deb was helping him with an application... Well, I found an old resume.
He'd never told her he was a veteran, but Deb had a lot of experience with the VA. While getting her advanced nursing degree, she worked on a program at the VA that specifically studied Vietnam veterans with PTSD. I'm like...
Dawn had forgiven her fiancé Wes for a number of things. He told her he was separated from his wife, when in reality, he was still very much with her. He told Dawn he worked as a salesman at a steel company, which she found out was also a lie. Finally, with Wes coming clean, the couple could enter a new era, a sort of golden era. And it started with a wedding.
The new job Wes scored, which this time was a real job, proved to be a natural fit for him. He was managing investor money at an oil and gas company. And he was great at it.
They moved out of the small town where his ex-wife and family lived and settled in a Fort Worth suburb to be near his job.
They were officially somebodies. And it was around this time when she entered this life of luxury that Dawn made a new friend. We'll call her Sandy.
As their personal life blossomed, so did Wes's career. The oil company was growing a lot and Wes had made friends with the right people there. People who wanted to take him all the way to the top of the company. In fact, they gave him the opportunity to buy the company. He did.
The sale of the company happened fast and under kind of weird circumstances. But Wes didn't seem concerned about it. And the money was good.
And the couple got to spend a lot of time doing something they both loved, partying.
It was a whirlwind, great Gatsby style, but set in the 2006 Texas suburbs. Dawn and Wes were still in their 30s, and they made it big. She knew her husband was a charmer, but there were two sides to that coin. On one side, he was a natural leader and salesman, but on the other side, Wes was still the same old ladies' man. Early on, Dawn found evidence that Wes might be cheating on her.
Instead of confronting him, she decided to take a different approach.
I had to know a little more about the Dallas swingers scene.
Dawn says she was, quote, in the lifestyle for about a year and a half until the party started feeling off to her. It stopped being fun. but Wes pressured her to keep going with him. Those nights would always end in drunken blackouts, fights.
They stopped going to swingers clubs together and for a while, everything seemed normal. That was until years later when Wes began spending more and more time at work. Don was becoming suspicious about his work travel and the long hours he was putting in. Plus, he became guarded with his phone. Whenever Don tried to confront him, they got into an argument.
It was a lie that gave him a reason to leave her. And he took it. Immediately.
Dawn couldn't understand why he was so eager to walk out on her. So she turned to her friend, Sandy. And Sandy had recently seen Wes. And she's like, he took his ring off.
Soon after, Wes went on a work trip. Dawn got a weird feeling about it. Call it intuition. So she decided to do a little investigating. I found out where he was staying. She called the hotel front desk and she found out that there were two people staying in Wes's room. The other person was Sandy, Dawn's friend.
She suddenly understood why Wes had been so quick to walk out of their marriage and why Sandy was feeding her information about Wes's infidelity, even advising her that the relationship was too much. She was supposed to be my brand, but she's screwing my husband. When Wes came back from that business trip, his affair with Sandy was outed. It was a big scandal.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. As a listener note, this episode contains references to suicide and suicidal ideation. Please take care while listening. About a year ago, we heard from a fast-talking Southern woman named Dawn. I'm from East Texas, born and raised. Dawn is a firecracker.
It was humiliating, infuriating, but it was nothing compared to what came next.
She didn't even know what day the divorce hearing was set for.
She didn't just hire any attorney. She hired the mayor of their town.
Speaking your mind just runs in Dawn's family. She gets it from her mom.
Dawn's story of betrayal is a little different. She's the first to say that her story starts when she committed a betrayal of her own.
Dawn discovered her husband Wes had been cheating on her with her close friend. And in the divorce that followed, he filed a restraining order to keep Dawn out of his multi-million dollar business. He crossed her one too many times. And now, she needed to know the extent of his wrongdoing.
She saw posts from people who'd invested in Wes's oil company saying they'd been promised returns, but those returns never came. Dawn was also finding records of properties in her husband's name, properties she didn't know anything about, that all led back to Wes.
Her friend couldn't tell her about the investigation, but someone else was about to.
She might not be involved with the company, but she did know Wes was always up to something. And if she could help expose more of his lies, she was in.
In the early 2000s, Dawn was married with two young daughters. She described her first husband as a nice guy, maybe the first guy that had ever really been good to her. But she wasn't in love. One night, Dawn decided to go out with her sister.
And she learned he had misappropriated $2 million. That $2 million was just the beginning. In total, West's company illegally raised $13 million through what's known as a boiler room scheme. Salespeople like West duped hundreds of everyday people to invest their savings in the company's oil drilling projects.
But they were doing it using fake data, falsified information about the company's profits, and empty promises about their expected returns. And a lot of those investor funds weren't being used to expand the company's profits.
And where did all that money go? Well, Wes used it to fund their family's lavish lifestyle.
Money stolen from regular people who'd invested in Wes's oil and gas company, who were told they'd see massive returns.
She was scared for her own safety. But more so, she was devastated when she heard from the victims of Wes's fraud.
Even though Dawn wasn't responsible for Wes's crimes, she was still financially entangled with him. His LLC that he was laundering money through...
But of course, everything he'd bought for the couple, from their house to Don's shoes, could now be seized by the feds.
Dawn's life was on pause as she waited for the financial and legal reckoning.
That's when Dawn got another unexpected call. From, of all people, a new woman Wes had started dating. She wanted to meet Dawn in person.
His name was Wes. Wes was an oil man, as they say in Texas, and he had a smooth-talking persona to match.
It wasn't until that moment when someone else described her same experiences that Dawn realized what was really happening. The last few times she went to the swingers club with Wes, those nights she'd blacked out.
This was more than a betrayal. It was a crime. He drugged and sexually assaulted her. She was still processing this while in the middle of an SEC investigation where the government could be justified in seizing everything she had. It left her feeling overwhelmingly empty and alone.
Every day felt excruciatingly long. Dawn says she got through it for her daughters. And Wes, well, he'd already moved on, to say the least.
He might have been telling his family that he was innocent, but that's not what West told the government. He agreed to a plea deal with the FBI. Now he was awaiting sentencing. Finally, they could move forward with their divorce.
Dawn was relieved to keep the modest half of what the government left her. But Wes still wasn't done with her. Despite it all, he still kept reaching out to Dawn. She didn't reply until finally.
What am I going to do when I come out? He couldn't wrap his mind around the reality that he was going to prison. Considering what he'd done, Dawn was losing patience for him. She knew he was reaching out for sympathy, maybe for help processing, or maybe because he just didn't have anyone else left.
And she kind of looked at me confused. He'd been lying to everyone, including his family. He'd also been stealing from his grandmother.
It's been over a decade since the end of their relationship and since Wes passed away. I try to say I don't have any regrets.
Hard lessons for sure. Dawn endured so much in this relationship. We asked what the hardest part was for her.
That's probably the hardest thing. Part of Dawn's healing process is being honest, taking accountability for her actions.
That night, he focused intensely on her. Wes laughed hard at her jokes, and the way he looked at her made her feel beautiful.
Dawn found happiness in starting a new career. I always wanted to be an esthetician, so now I own my own spa. That's what I'm sitting in, my little spa. She also found love again, this time with a man who was honest with her and treats her well. In fact, while we were on our call... Hi, honey. My husband brought me flowers. So sweet. Thank you, babe.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca and Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Dawn told him about her husband and two daughters, but he didn't bat an eye. Honestly, she was surprised that he was single.
Against her better judgment, she gave him her phone number.
That went on for about eight months. In the beginning, it was an emotional affair. There was nothing physical going on. And he stuck to his story about being single with no kids.
After a few months, Wes finally came clean. He did have a wife. And a daughter, too.
He confessed that he'd had a few affairs before, but this time with Dawn, it was different. They'd been talking every day for months, seeing each other once a week. And even though nothing physical had happened between them, Wes was in deep. This is what he told her.
Wes was a preacher's son. No one in his family had ever been divorced, and Dawn understood that pressure. But after eight months, their emotional affair turned physical, and there was no going back after that.
She was the first to take the leap, to leave her marriage. She wanted to start over, with Wes at her side. Not long after, Wes said he and his wife were also separating in order for him to be with Dawn. And a few months after that... We got engaged. They made their relationship public, spent time with each other's kids, and started building a new life together.
Dawn started bringing Wes around her family and spending time with his young daughter. His larger family wasn't ready to accept Wes's recent separation. Regardless, he and Dawn began envisioning a life together. Dawn had stayed home with her kids in the past and loved it. Wes said he could give that life to her again.
Dawn agreed to move to a small town outside of Dallas where Wes lived. His whole family was there too. He wanted to stay close to his daughter. Because he and Don weren't married yet, he decided to live separately. Wes lived with his mom, while Don and her daughters rented a small house in town.
There, Wes got a new job in the steel business. And Dawn settled into her new life as a stay-at-home mom. The couple started making plans to get married.
But in the middle of wedding planning, Dawn's cell phone got turned off. She assumed that Wes, as busy as he was, had forgotten to pay their bill. It was 2004, so she used her landline to call his office. He had been working at a place called Chaparral Steel.
He lied about where he worked. What was going on?
There was a long pause on the other end of the phone. Something wasn't right. Before she could get an answer about the job, the conversation took a different turn.
Dawn had moved her whole life and her kids to this small town. She thought it was for her and Wes to start a new life together. Turns out it was so he could be closer to his wife, who he was still living with. He was never separated.
Within 10 minutes, both Wes and his wife were at Dawn's house, and they were fighting. I'm like, there's a cop episode up in my house right now. With hindsight, Dawn can joke about it now, but in the moment, her relationship with Wes was over.
She had sympathy for him, especially as he was going through a mental health crisis.
A few weeks after everything came to light, she took him back. Wes kept saying he was in the process of divorcing his wife.
The whole situation was messy, destructive. But Dawn and Wes could finally be together for real this time. But of course, there was still that issue of his job or the job he said he had. When she asked about it, Wes confessed that he'd been fired from a string of jobs and he was too ashamed to tell her. She pitied him.
He put so much pressure on himself to appear perfect, and it was taking a massive toll on him. So Dawn's strategy was to love him through this tumultuous time, to assure him that they would figure it out together. And pretty soon, he came to her with a new job prospect. He said, I have the opportunity to go back in the oil and gas business. He was working in the oil business when they met.
She didn't want him to slide back into the toxic culture he'd left behind. But she knew she couldn't control him. Plus, it was a good job offer.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
After weeks of waiting, Angelique was losing faith that Cassandra would ever be held responsible. But then she got the call. Law enforcement was finally able to make an arrest. Cassandra was facing multiple charges.
She admitted that she'd planned to murder Angelique in order to steal her baby. Cassandra was now behind bars, and she would stay there until there was a trial.
The news brought a lot of relief. Angelique could breathe a little easier, but the arrest didn't take away the trauma.
She recently saw a video that was taken when her son was one. He was learning how to walk for the first time. And I say, oh, my gosh, it's his first steps.
In the wake of everything, she wasn't living. She was surviving.
When everything went down, Angelique had to fight for her case to be taken seriously by the cops. And after Cassandra was arrested, she didn't hear anything from law enforcement or prosecutors for 12 months.
That was until she got a call from the district attorney's office.
The full confession police got out of Cassandra wouldn't be admissible in court.
But Angelique knew there was physical evidence from the fire.
The DA's office informed Angelique of Cassandra's defense strategy. She was going to plead insanity.
And in that moment, Angelique almost felt bad for her. The prosecutor said that Angelique could decide.
She slept on it and realized that without the confession, the prosecution's hands were tied.
The state offered eight years in a psychiatric hospital.
At the sentencing hearing, Angelique was able to read a victim impact statement.
Almost immediately, it became a media circus.
Everyone wanted to run with the story. Angelique became reduced to a headline. It felt like something was being taken from her, and not on her terms.
A few years after sentencing, a local journalist came over to interview Angelique about the story. And he was the first one to ask her.
But at the time, Angelique wasn't ready to hear it.
It wasn't until eight years later when Cassandra was released from the psychiatric hospital that Angelique finally revisited the case.
She started with Cassandra's taped confession. And on it, she learned Cassandra's story, what Cassandra was really doing the night the fire started.
Her plan was to kill Angelique with a butcher knife and steal her baby. That's what she was preparing to do when she sat Angelique on her bed in the dark and counted to three.
When Angelique stood up, the initial plan fell apart. So Cassandra moved on to plan B.
Cassandra thought it would be easier to kill Angelique if she were unconscious. The whole thing was like a horror movie. It's actually diabolical.
It turns out the plan wasn't entirely hers, or at least that's what Cassandra stated in her confession.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. When Angelique Robledo was 17, she found out she was pregnant. She decided that this baby would be her second chance. She got clean from drugs and made a new friend, another pregnant teenager named Cassandra.
And in this gang, Cassandra confessed that she worked for one man in particular.
Cassandra claimed that she was part of a gang operation. And her boss had a plan to sell Angelique's baby.
This was all news to Angelique. These tapes suggested an alternate motivation for why Cassandra did what she did. And it didn't match up with what Angelique heard from prosecutors back when they offered a plea deal. At the time, her understanding was that Cassandra was mentally ill and thought the baby was hers. But in the confession...
And there was something else in Cassandra's confession. Another thing Angelique heard that didn't square with what the prosecutors told her.
She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero.
This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh.
Listen to Deep Cover, The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
But one day, a casual hangout with Cassandra took a sinister turn. Angelique had a gut feeling that something was wrong, but she didn't know what it was. After a fire started, Cassandra was taken away by paramedics, and Angelique was left to explain the situation to her parents and law enforcement. She suspected that Cassandra started the fire and that the proof was in her friend's bag.
Prosecutors had told Angelique that Cassandra's confession wasn't admissible in court because no one had read Cassandra her Miranda rights. While reviewing the case file years later, Angelique discovered that wasn't true. They had read her her Miranda rights.
This supposed procedural error was the reason why Angelique was okay with the plea deal. So why did the prosecutors tell her this story? Well, Angelique has a theory.
If Cassandra was telling the truth, maybe she could help law enforcement catch higher ups in her gang. Angelique thought back to all the phone calls Cassandra had taken, the ones in Spanish, and she'd taken a call in the middle of the attempted murder. Angelique had believed she was talking with Edwin, her husband. So was Edwin the mastermind? The gang leader?
The cops met with Edwin, and they were very surprised to hear... He states, yeah, she's someone I dated.
Edwin was a real guy that Cassandra had dated, but he hadn't talked to her in years. So who was actually on the other end of the phone? In her confession, Cassandra does name someone besides Edwin. But the cops couldn't find a record of this other guy. And that's where the police file ends. For Angelique, it felt like... They gave up.
She's had to make peace with the fact that she might never know who Cassandra was working with. She might never get the full story.
She's come to accept that the police report may just be another version of the story. And can she even trust Cassandra's taped confession? After all, Cassandra was clearly unwell. By the time Angelique heard the tapes, Cassandra had served her entire sentence. Angelique felt like reopening the case against Cassandra would be a dead end.
For her, reopening the case would only bring back bad memories. The damage was already done.
Her healing process wasn't linear.
She recently drove past the house where the crime happened for the first time in years. And instead of feeling overwhelmed and triggered, she felt a powerful calm.
Josh, her son's father, has been a constant in her life and in her healing.
They dated throughout their first few years as parents.
Angelique's also become an advocate for preventing fetal abduction.
Fetal abduction is incredibly rare. There have been less than 20 documented cases in the U.S. in the last decade. And of those cases, very few of the victims survived.
She's also done something astounding. She wanted to help others grow their own families. So she became a surrogate.
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why are you telling your story?
She backed away from the bag, trembling. The cops stepped in.
On the next episode of Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The items painted a dark picture of what Cassandra might have been planning that night. And Angelique realized the gifts she'd been given weren't for her at all.
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
It all finally clicked for Angelique. Cassandra had been planning to stab her and run away with her baby.
The rest of that night was a blur. She was in shock. She remembers the cops taping off the scene.
what had been a potential arson, was now an attempted murder investigation. Later that night, a police investigator came to speak with Angelique.
They hadn't been smoking weed. Angelique knew what happened. She just couldn't prove it to the cops.
She was afraid Cassandra might come back and follow through with the plan.
She didn't feel like they were taking her seriously. And now Cassandra was out of the hospital roaming free. Angelique decided to take matters into her own hands.
After the fire, Cassandra was brought to the hospital because she was having contractions. Angelique had a friend who worked at that hospital at the time, a friend who was willing to break the rules to help Angelique get some answers. And what her friend saw in Cassandra's medical record was a bombshell.
Up until that moment, Angelique fully believed her friend was pregnant. In fact, that had been the basis of their entire relationship. But now she had confirmation that it was all a lie. She felt like this information was important to her case.
For the cops to move forward, Angelique would need to get Cassandra on the record contradicting her original statement to police.
So they asked Angelique to do a recorded phone call.
Anjali got what she needed, but it was anticlimactic. The police basically thanked her and sent her on her way. But almost immediately... From that moment, I had went into labor. She went straight to the hospital. Because Cassandra still hadn't been arrested, the hospital took precautions to keep Angelique safe.
After all, someone had wanted to steal her baby and brought a butcher knife to do it. So she was adamant about not having a C-section.
The stress had led to high blood pressure, and now Angelique had preeclampsia. It was a high-risk birth.
Finally, her son was born. He was healthy and in her arms.
She hoped that after he was born, she'd find some relief.
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
While she was in the hospital, her family worked to renovate her bedroom, to repaint it and make it livable again. But after she was discharged, she struggled to relax at home.
Josh, her son's father, stepped up to help. He wanted to be a safe place for Angelique. So every night, he stayed with her on the couch next to their new baby.
But even with him by her side, she couldn't let her guard down.
When Josh or her family tried to talk to her about how she was doing, Angelique shut down.
She wanted Cassandra arrested, but the cops weren't sharing any information about the case.
She didn't even feel safe taking a walk around her neighborhood.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Cassandra had been arrested.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero.
This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh.
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Angelique was 17 when she found out she was going to have a baby. She had lost a lot of friends, and by the time she was entering her third trimester, she was feeling isolated and alone. But then a friend offered to connect her to someone new, another teenager named Cassandra, who was four months pregnant.
Finally, Angelique had her pregnancy buddy, someone who wouldn't judge her. It was the connection she'd been craving. They both needed to set up their baby registry, so they decided to do it together at a baby store.
They started talking every day, commiserating.
They became fast friends. And they had mutual friends. So they would sometimes hang out as one big group. When they all got together, Cassandra was always on her phone.
That was one thing they didn't have in common. Angelique was still taking it slow with the father of her baby. But Cassandra was already married to the father of hers.
Cassandra only talked to Edwin in Spanish. Even though Angelique grew up around it every day, she never learned the language. So when Cassandra was on these calls, no one knew what she was talking about.
It was weird, but people just chalked it up to Cassandra being young, pregnant, and being attached to her husband. A few weeks before Angelique's due date, her family and friends threw her a baby shower.
The only person who couldn't be there was Cassandra. She'd been feeling sick that day, but promised to check in when she felt better.
So they made plans for Cassandra to come over a few days later.
The bag was full of gifts for Angelique. But instead of opening them, they got distracted just catching up.
So Angelique tried to give Cassandra some grace, even when it came to the endless calls she made to her husband, Edwin.
By this point, it was getting close to dinnertime. Angelique's mom had to take her little brothers to football practice. She offered to bring Angelique and Cassandra along.
Suddenly, Cassandra seemed on edge, almost paranoid. But then she remembered something.
Cassandra wanted to surprise Angelique with the gifts.
She started dropping presents in her lap one by one.
But Angelique noticed something off about the gifts.
The whole situation started to give her that weird feeling again.
Then Cassandra brought out an even bigger present, an expensive baby carrier.
Cassandra explained that she'd gotten two of them at her own baby shower and wanted to give one to Angelique. Plus, she said Angelique was special.
Cassandra was on the verge of tears. Angelique almost felt sorry for her.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Cassandra had been spoiling Angelique with gift after gift for the baby, but she had one last present for her. It was a gift that involved a light or a projection. You'd have to see it in the dark for the full effect. So they went to Angelique's room, where Cassandra told her to sit on the bed and close her eyes one more time.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Angelique Robledo was thrust into the headlines when she was only 17.
She couldn't tell if this was just anxiety or if it was something more serious.
So she tried to calm herself down by lighting a candle, a nervous habit of hers.
The whole situation was so bizarre. Angelique needed a moment to herself. So she left Cassandra in her room while she went to the kitchen.
The smell was so intense that Angelique ran from room to room, checking to see if anything was on fire.
Call 911. Help, please. She didn't have time to deal with Cassandra or think at all. She just needed to put the fire out immediately.
Angelique poured on as much water as she could before they had to evacuate.
As a teenager, Angelique experienced a horribly traumatic betrayal. And that's the story you're going to hear over the next two episodes. It's taken her 10 years of hindsight, processing, and her own investigation to be able to tell the full story, not just for the headlines or the tabloids, but for herself. Today, Angelique is finally ready to tell her story her way.
Right as they got out, Angelique's best friend, who she called in panic, was pulling up to the house.
He and his mom had called 911 and the fire department was on their way.
Angelique was a week away from her due date, but Cassandra was only six months pregnant.
Angelique's parents arrived home at the same time as emergency services.
Firefighters rushed inside while paramedics started attending to Angelique and Cassandra.
But Cassandra wasn't feeling better. She thought she was in labor. So the paramedics decided to take her to the hospital. Meanwhile, Angelique went inside with her parents to assess the damage. The firefighters had put the fire out, but not before.
Everyone wanted to know how the fire started. Angelique thought Cassandra had something to do with it, but she didn't think anyone would believe her.
She explained that she had lit a candle in her bedroom and then went to the kitchen, leaving Cassandra alone in her bedroom.
The authorities retrieved the candle and collected it for evidence. Meanwhile, Angelique tried to explain to her parents that something else had happened that night. She told them about the whole scene before the fire, how Cassandra sat her down in the dark, that she'd been scared for her life.
Then EMS began collecting Cassandra's things, including that big bag she'd brought with her.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal.
I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Angelique grew up in a large Mexican-American family.
Their house was always a gathering place for friends and family. Angelique's mom was an interior designer, and she loved being a hostess.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
It was a loving home. Angelique was the only girl in a family full of brothers. She was the sensitive one.
Compared to her brothers, she was more of a people pleaser. She wanted to fit in and be liked. When Angelique was in middle school, her family moved from California to Arizona. It felt like a big upgrade.
But it was a difficult adjustment. She left all of her friends behind and started middle school in a new state. I was the new girl.
So she developed a tough girl persona.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
And part of that new persona meant experimenting with drugs.
She asked us not to share details about what was happening. But suffice it to say, it was a difficult time.
The summer before her senior year, she was invited to a party.
It was at that party that a friend suggested that they try a new drug.
Trying meth wasn't the only thing that happened at the party. There was a guy named Josh there. They'd known each other for years as acquaintances. She thought he was cute.
She and Josh hooked up. It was casual, a one-time thing. After that party, Angelique's life began revolving around her new addiction.
As the weeks went on, Angelique began feeling sick and started to suspect she could be pregnant. So one day, about six weeks after she hooked up with Josh, she bought a pregnancy test.
Turns out it was positive. She was only 17 and she panicked.
But she couldn't stay in the bathroom forever.
Her stepbrother was watching the whole scene and he knew Angelique had just used drugs in the bathroom.
The rest of that day was a blur. Once everyone in the house had gone to bed, Angelique had one thing on her mind.
At this point, she'd been addicted to meth for six weeks, and it had taken over her life.
Sitting in front of the toilet with a wrench was her rock bottom. She never wanted to go back to that place.
The next morning, she knew she had to talk to Josh. She told him she was pregnant and he agreed to meet in person.
She decided that this pregnancy was her second chance, her lifeline. She told Josh that she was going to have the baby, whether he wanted to be involved or not. After all, they had only hooked up once. They hardly knew each other.
But Josh wanted to be there for her and for the baby. One of their first dates was a doctor's appointment. There, looking at the ultrasound monitor.
This whole experience led her to sobriety, and she's been clean ever since.
But it wasn't easy. She had to take one day at a time.
Her old friends started avoiding her.
Her friends had moved on without her. She says she felt forgotten.
On top of that, she didn't have any friends who understood what it was like being pregnant.
Her biggest supporter was Josh. But to prepare for the baby, Josh started working overtime, trying to save money.
Seeing Josh was often the highlight of her day. That was until she was introduced to a new friend.
But that new friend would change Angelique's life forever. Forever. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Danielle was shaken and confused about her husband's confession to a one-time fling. But at the same time, Chad was doing everything he could to make it right. He confessed to it immediately. He wanted to get help. And most importantly, he was coming to her with sincere remorse.
I was crying. He was saying he's sorry. Chad wanted to get help quickly. And so the next day, they did.
We were given a name of a Christian counselor. They had multiple sessions with the counselor. Some sessions together as a couple and some separately. During a one-on-one meeting, the counselor gave Danielle some advice.
The counselor said he'd seen a situation like this before, and he wanted Danielle to know that divorce was an option.
This one infidelity, it felt small and manageable, especially compared to the years they'd spend together, getting to know each other, studying the Bible together and building a life. She really trusted Chad.
They got a workbook on overcoming infidelity and even did the homework together. And they decided to lean on their faith to help them rebuild their relationship. Church became an even bigger part of their lives.
We were very involved in our faith. Their marriage began looking up, especially when, a year later, they welcomed their first baby, a baby girl.
Danielle was on top of the world, so filled with love for her first daughter and her young family. It confirmed to her that she really did want to be a stay-at-home mom. She just felt whole.
And your family is so cute. The difficulties she and Chad faced in the first year of marriage started to feel like they were in the rearview mirror.
That baby would be the first of six.
Soon, Danielle's life became consumed by full-time child care. As their kids got older, she started homeschooling them. And she loved every minute of it.
With a growing family came more financial demands. But luckily, Chad's business was taking off. They even had the ability to upgrade their house.
Danielle didn't think it was the most practical choice, but the house made him happy. After they moved in, he tried to tell her how to run the house, but she stood her ground. She trusted him to handle the finances. So when it came to the housework, he needed to trust her.
Hi Betrayal listeners, it's Andrea Gunning. We're off this week for Thanksgiving, but we'll be back next week with a brand new story. This week, we wanted to re-release a listener favorite, Danielle's story. We originally released it in two parts, but for this re-release, we're combining both parts for you so you can hear her full story all at once.
You know?
And there were a lot of things that needed dusting. Chad was a collector. It was a quirk that Danielle accepted.
They loved watching movies as a family. And after the kids went to bed, the couple would watch their favorite TV shows. Dexter and Breaking Bad. Every summer, Danielle, Chad, and their six kids would take family road trips.
On these trips, they'd stay in huge rental homes. Chad always wanted the best of the best for the family. And they were very nice, very nice rented houses.
One summer, about 15 years into their marriage, the family was on one of their regular road trips. And on this trip, their rental home was in a remote area.
He was just gone. It was the early 2000s, so she didn't have a smartphone to look at his location. She started to worry that something terrible happened.
Around 3 a.m., the phone rang. It was Chad.
One thing we love about Danielle's story is the ending, where she finds love again. And as you'll hear in the episode, she and her new husband got married at the Thanksgiving table. They said their vows between dinner and dessert, surrounded by all of their family. We will be back next week with a brand new episode.
When Chad got back, he tried to explain it away.
He blew it over. Whenever they got in a disagreement, this is what he'd tell her. His favorite phrase was, don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
abandoning the family in a rental house in the middle of the night with no good explanation, it just didn't sit right with her. So Danielle called her mom. She was like, oh, wow, yeah, that is really weird. I'm glad you're okay. You know, I'm glad it all worked out, but that is really weird. Danielle was the full-time caretaker for six children under 15.
She didn't have the energy to fight with her husband. I didn't confront him.
Plus, whenever she did question him, it always ended up coming back on her.
And in the meantime, for those celebrating Happy Thanksgiving, we are so grateful to all of you, our listeners. Thank you for everything. So without further ado, here's Danielle's story.
When Danielle woke up on a family vacation to find her husband missing, he said he was picking up something for work at a Walmart in the middle of the night. She didn't quite buy the story, but she knew Chad was busier than ever, growing his financial advising firm. Around the same time, he decided to start making passive income by buying rental properties in town.
It started with one small house, then two, then an apartment building in their hometown. He was so busy that he often worked from home at nights. He renovated their basement to become his home office. He even put in a king-size bed.
It bothered her, him staying up late like this and sleeping in his office. It also bothered her that he locked the door. He said it was a security measure because he had important financial documents in there.
He started coming to bed with her until she fell asleep. Then he would slip out and go back to work. She would only realize it when she woke up and found him gone.
She never found any proof that her husband was cheating or having an affair. She didn't have the energy to start a fight with him. He insisted on sleeping in the basement. Eventually, she became resigned to the fact she couldn't change his mind. At that point in our marriage, I felt very distant from him.
In this period where Chad was sleeping in the basement office and they were bickering, Danielle knew that their marriage needed to improve. So she sought help for herself.
I wanted our marriage to be a really good marriage, and I didn't feel that it was a good marriage. She even suggested they try counseling again as a couple. But this time, Chad resisted.
With each passing month, Chad spent more and more time out of the house, renovating the rental properties. And some nights, tenants would call with emergencies. There would be nights where he would say, oh, I got to go.
Despite their rocky few years, she still trusted him. She had to.
Plus, the rental properties added financial security to their lives. She believed that at the end of the day, he was working so hard in order to provide for the family. She often overheard him practicing conversations he needed to have for work.
There was one big meeting in particular Chad was preparing for. It was with an older couple that went to their church, a couple that taught Sunday school. They had known Chad for nearly his whole life. And they were wealthy. Chad set up a meeting with them to pitch his financial advising services.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. One night in 2017, Danielle Oliver Chauvet was awoken by the FBI and state police. They were pointing guns at her, demanding to know where her husband was. That night, she learned the man she had spent 20 years with was hiding some very big secrets.
In the end, they decided not to use him. He was dejected. He'd been counting on their business. After that meeting didn't go as planned, he started talking about selling his financial advising business. And instead, getting into the storage industry.
And so we need to set up this LLC. He wanted Danielle to sign paperwork to help set up the business. If we have you as the president, then it's better for taxes because you're a woman. He asked her to go to the bank with him that day to get it set up. And there, out in public, she noticed that her husband looked disheveled.
Later that day, one of Danielle's kids came to her. He said that last night, he'd seen something strange in the driveway of their house.
This was alarming because another one of her kids had confessed something bizarre.
Immediately, she tried to get in touch with Chad, but he wasn't answering his phone. After they went to the bank, he'd left the house to work on a rental property.
If it sounds like Danielle is reading off of a piece of paper, it's because she is. She's reading from a written statement documenting this day. Nothing is as it seems.
That night, Chad didn't come home for dinner. At the time, she assumed he'd fallen asleep at the rental property again. But she couldn't leave her six small children to go check on him. So around 11 p.m., after putting the kids to bed, she went to sleep herself.
It was becoming very clear very quickly this was actually the state police and the FBI. There wasn't a mistake. They were looking for Chad. And they were incredibly serious.
This is Danielle's first time telling her story. She's been reluctant to share what she went through because, as you'll hear in part two, her husband has other victims. She wants to be respectful of their experience and suffering. But this episode isn't about her husband's crimes.
Then the police asked her about the elderly couple that went to their church. The ones Chad wanted as clients. Why are you asking me questions about them? And where is my husband?
It's about the 20-year marriage Danielle built with him, the ways he deceived and violated her, and the shocking betrayal that ended it all. It's also the story of being totally in the dark about your partner's double life.
Danielle Oliver Chauvet woke up in the middle of the night on February 8, 2017, to find her house swarmed with police and FBI agents.
They thought I was involved. But a suspect in what? Danielle would soon find out. Chan Skipper, her husband of nearly 20 years and the father of their six children, hadn't come home that night. He said he'd been renovating one of their rental properties. The police were screaming questions at her about where Chad was, asking if she had any hiding places in the house.
And most confusing of all, the police were asking about an elderly couple who taught Sunday school at their church. Why are you asking me questions about them? And where is my husband? The police wouldn't give her any information about what was happening or why they were at her house. But it was clear that whatever it was, it was urgent. The police took her in and began a long interrogation.
We've known them for a long time. They were also asking questions about the family's finances. Questions Danielle just didn't have the answers to. I was shaking. I was just...
It didn't even dawn on me that it could be what it was. After hours of interrogation, the police let Danielle go. She went to a friend's house where her kids were waiting for her. She repeatedly tried to get in touch with Chad without any reply. Then, first thing the next morning, her phone rang. It was Chad's father.
Unbeknownst to anyone, that couple from their church had been missing for three days. We're not saying their names because Danielle wants to respect their privacy. Before this, they were friends, and Danielle believes that their story is their family's to tell, just like her story is hers to tell. So for this episode, she's going to call them... His victims.
They were amazing people. The day before police raided Danielle's house, a woman had walked into a bank and asked for a cashier's check for $350,000 from her own savings account. Before the teller cut the check, the woman slipped her a note. She was being held for ransom. Her captor was waiting down the block with her husband in the trunk.
If she didn't return to the car with the check, her kidnapper said he would kill her husband. She needed to walk out of that bank, check in hand. So they gave it to her and let her go. And as soon as she walked out of the door, the teller called the police. That call initiated a statewide search for the kidnapped couple and their captor. Immediately, it became the top story on the local news.
The morning after the raid, Danielle was still in the dark about what was happening. She was reeling and desperately trying to get in touch with her husband. She didn't want to believe the wild theory that Chad could have kidnapped this elderly couple. That was until she saw his picture on the news.
In that moment, she understood why the police woke her up in the middle of the night.
Danielle grew up in a happy, tight-knit family in California.
Over the following days and weeks, Danielle discovered the full extent of her husband's horrifying crimes. This is what she learned.
He just sat in their kitchen for hours in the middle of the night before he finally entered the bedroom where the elderly couple was sleeping.
After the police showed up at the bank, they called in the FBI, who traced the cashier's check and found the couple's names and address. When they searched their home, they discovered signs of forced entry, evidence of a deployed taser, and small drops of blood in the bedroom. But the house was eerily quiet. No one was home.
In fact, by the time the police were alerted, no one had heard from the couple in three days.
While Chad was committing this elaborate crime, Danielle was at home taking care of their kids, going about her business just as usual, completely unaware that her husband had violently kidnapped their family friends and was holding them for ransom. But where was Chad? And where was he holding the couple? Danielle had no idea.
When the police were finally alerted, they knew time was of the essence. They relied on the FBI and state police to use all resources possible to find the missing couple. Ransom kidnapping cases like this often end in tragedy, especially considering the money was already exchanged. They were running out of time. With each passing hour, the search grew increasingly urgent.
Then the FBI got a tip about a car matching the description of the one seen leaving the bank with the kidnapped victims, a silver 1990 Chevy Caprice. But Danielle didn't know anything about a Chevy Caprice, so maybe they had the wrong guy. The police tracked the car down, but when they went to pull it over, the driver sped up. It was all over the local news.
Growing up, Danielle's parents were her role models. They had a respectful and happy marriage. It was an environment that nurtured her easygoing and trusting nature.
The police approached the crashed vehicle and found that the driver was indeed Chad Skipper. He was injured but alive and arrested on the spot in connection with the kidnapping. Law enforcement was hoping to find the victims with Chad, alive in the trunk of his car, but no one else was with him. Instead, the police found clear plastic painter's tarps, a saw, duct tape, and a shovel.
Now that Chad was arrested, the only priority was finding the missing couple. There were still a few places the police hadn't searched, Chad's rental properties. After he was arrested, Chad gave police the address where he said the couple was being held.
When police showed up, it looked like a construction zone. The surfaces were covered in sawdust and power tools. The doors were taken off their hinges, and there was a ladder in the middle of the living room. But it also looked like someone had been squatting there. There was trash everywhere, plates of half-eaten food, electronic wires and cables dangled from the outlets.
Police searched every room, but no one seemed to be in the house. Then they double-checked the bedroom, where they took a closer look at a computer monitor laying on the floor. It appeared to show a surveillance feed, six live feed images of a windowless room where two figures were lying on a mattress covered by blankets. On the wall next to them were hooks and shackles.
There was a secret room somewhere in this house and Chad's victims were in there.
She was raised with a strong sense of faith. That's still one of her core values.
Danielle's one of those rare people who loved high school. She was popular, and she had a longtime high school boyfriend named Billy.
The night of Chad's arrest, police began searching one of his rental properties for a secret room, a dungeon, where he was holding two people captive. From what they could see on the surveillance feed, it was a windowless room somewhere in the house. The couple was lying motionless on a mattress. It wasn't clear if they were alive.
But then one of the FBI agents moved a dresser in the closet and lifted up a piece of carpeting to reveal a locked steel hatch.
Police used bolt cutters to open the door. They found an eight-foot drop into a dark, windowless room, and they went in. That's where they discovered the couple, miraculously still alive. They had been tortured and chained. Chad said he had people watching their kids and grandkids. So if they tried to escape or get help, he would kill them.
How else could it end? And judging by the contents of his car, it seemed like he meant it. This what if still haunts Danielle. Chad was charged with felony home invasion, aggravated kidnapping, and unlawful restraint. His bail was set at a million dollars.
Right before their senior year of high school, Billy proposed to her, and she said yes. But then... I actually had to move to Hawaii because my dad was working for the military, and we moved there. She ended up spending her senior year in Hawaii. Then she got accepted to college in Illinois. She was ready to start a new life there without her high school boyfriend.
Overnight, Danielle had to reckon with the fact that her husband of nearly two decades and the father of her children was capable of a violent crime. In addition to processing that shock, she didn't understand why. Was it all for the money? I didn't know that we were having financial trouble.
To answer that question, Danielle started looking through Chad's basement office. There, she made a series of shocking discoveries. First, why he targeted the people he did.
His fake financial business. She also found out that he was never actually a certified financial advisor or planner. So what did he do for a living? From what she gathered in his office, he charmed elderly people into letting him be their financial advisor, where he would skim from their accounts for years.
In fact, after he was arrested, his own parents sued him for stealing over $400,000 while he claimed to serve as their financial advisor. But not only did he steal from his own parents, he also stole from his grandmother.
He never confessed to this, but it added up for Danielle. What never made sense, though, was the construction of the dungeon. I found the plans and bills from it in his office. Chad had been hiring a contractor to build the dungeon piece by piece over the past two years.
The shocking fact that he'd built a dungeon to hold the kidnapping victims kept the story in the headlines for months.
Danielle never slept another night in the big house that she and Chad had shared with their kids.
She and her kids moved into her parents' home while she got her bearings. For the first few months after Chad's arrest, Danielle's dad would accompany her to the old house to continue excavating Chad's office. The police had already collected the evidence they needed, and she was left to clean up the rest.
He had forged my name. She also found lies about herself, stories she'd never heard before.
Giving up her first love was hard, but she wanted to prioritize her independence. Danielle thrived in college. She loved her major, which was art, and she also loved going to Bible study on campus. That's where she met Chad.
Some of it was to different potential clients that he was going to have. And some things she discovered were just suspicious.
Just strange things that we never found an answer to. One of the most haunting things she found in his office was a set of life insurance policies on everyone in their family. Policies she never knew existed.
Danielle didn't want his explanations. She cooperated with the police and prosecutors and gave them any evidence they needed.
He thought he was so smart. She sent him one letter in jail, where she said she would be praying for him, but needed to cut off communication. After that, she filed for divorce. But letters from Chad never stopped coming. Every few weeks, there'd be that distinctive envelope in their mailbox.
She never replied, hoping his letters would finally stop coming. But one day, she got a letter that was different from the others.
She felt comfortable around Chad. It was easy, like they'd known each other for years.
While Chad sat in jail, Danielle was trying to rebuild her life. That's when she began to get strange letters in the mail. The return address just said the name Eloisa May. This is what the letters were about.
Finally, Chad, or Eloisa May, got to the point.
From the start, Danielle was serious about Chad.
The letters were four, five, six pages long, written in a tiny, neat handwriting that didn't look like Chad's at all. She assumed that either he was disguising his handwriting or got someone in the jail to write it for him while he dictated. Either way, the character Chad was putting on was so transparently manipulative.
She suspects that he made the character Southern to try to pull on Danielle's heartstrings because her grandmother was from the South. A little bit later, he goes...
Chad also used his extensive knowledge of the Bible to try and make Danielle question her decisions.
The Eloisa May letters almost amused her, but they also felt like an insult. Did he really think she would fall for this? I think he had a very, very low opinion of me.
She kept the Eloisa May letters to remind herself of just how delusional and scheming Chad really was. A year after his arrest, Chad pled guilty. But before he faced a sentencing hearing for the kidnapping, they had their divorce trial.
Danielle was awarded full custody, and shortly after, she attended her ex-husband's sentencing hearing. It started with the victim's statements. There were no dry eyes in that courtroom. They were amazing people. The judge was stunned by Chad's crime, especially the premeditation that had gone into building the dungeon and the torture the victims endured.
The judge gave Chad the maximum sentence possible.
Surprised, but grateful. She sees how dangerous Chad is and doesn't want him anywhere near her or their children ever again. She says she forgives him, but forgiveness can include boundaries.
Danielle decided to stay in that small town of Erie, Illinois. Chad's victims still live there too. And Danielle has seen them around town. I have seen them.
I really don't know. She's even thought about reaching out to apologize for the pain her husband caused and to grieve with them. I would love to talk to them directly.
Everything about him felt right. He was pursuing a degree in finance. He had dreams of starting his own business. And like her, he also wanted a big family. But most of all, she just loved being around him.
Some people in their community just didn't believe that Danielle was in the dark about her husband's double life.
Around town, she's noticed that people don't smile and wave as much as they used to.
side look like i know who you are don't look at me don't interact with me she's had to reckon with blaming herself for not knowing who her husband actually was and what he was really doing all those nights he claimed to be in the basement working i couldn't have known he didn't show that part of himself to me all i know is
As part of her healing process, she's learned about people like Chad and the tactics they use. Tactics that felt very familiar.
And my mind would just be like, I don't even know what's going on. These kinds of things helped her understand how he had subtly manipulated her for so long. But that didn't ease the self-blame or the sense that she couldn't trust anyone around her or even herself.
You know, we would laugh about lots of things. I was just attracted to the way I felt around him. While they were dating, he went above and beyond to woo her.
Or is this just his presentation of who he says he is? For Danielle, trusting the wrong person, building a life with them left her all alone and a single parent.
She found work as an online English tutor. And she built a business writing and selling knitting patterns.
After her divorce, she decided that she was done with romantic relationships.
But then she saw a post on Facebook from her high school boyfriend, Billy, the one who proposed to her 30 years ago. They'd since drifted apart and hadn't talked in nearly a decade. But in his post, she saw that his fiance had recently passed away. So she reached out to lend support.
I think she knew before I knew that I was starting to fall in love again. Danielle and Billy planned a FaceTime call where they would see each other for the first time in years.
It's not who she is, but Chad said she deserved the best. And it was flattering. After about two years of dating, he made a particularly grand gesture. He bought her an expensive dress, rented a limousine, and took them to a dinner theater.
After a few months of dating again, they got married, surrounded by their families at the Thanksgiving table.
Wouldn't have it any other way. We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story? Knowing that you're not alone is so helpful.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
She said yes. He brought her out of her comfort zone, and it felt like a fairy tale. I was 100%.
Chad was involved in every step of the wedding planning, which Danielle loved. And he also wanted to go to pre-marriage counseling to discuss their expectations.
We did know that I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, so that was talked about. Danielle had been managing her own money in her early 20s. And although she was good at it, it was a relief to be marrying someone who had expertise in finance. It made her feel safe. And so they agreed that while she would manage the household, Chad would manage the money.
She was happy with this arrangement. She's a do-it-yourself kind of person. It's an attitude that's well-suited to raising kids and running the household.
After they got married, the couple decided to move to Chad's hometown in Illinois. To call it a small town is an understatement. The entire population could fit in one high school football stadium. Well, the town we live in, Erie, is only 1,900. It's small. Small but perfectly suited to the life that they were building, a life that centered around family and community.
Plus, Chad had grown up there, so he knew nearly everyone in town. And everyone seemed to adore him. In fact, he'd been the high school valedictorian. Once they moved back to Erie, the couple also joined Chad's church, the church he grew up in. We were really involved with that church, and his parents went to that church too, and we led a Sunday school together as a couple.
Their life was falling into place. A happy marriage, a strong foundation based on shared values, a community that supported them, and a church they felt welcomed by. And Chad was making progress in his career. He began the certification process to become a financial advisor. He wanted to start his own firm.
She was proud of him. And for the time being, she kept working too.
But conceiving their first baby didn't happen as quickly as Danielle hoped. The months turned into a year. And during that year, Chad made a shocking confession.
She asked him point blank if he was gay. He said no, he wasn't. She wanted more details about what actually happened, who it was with, and what they did.
Seth's disappointment quickly faded. They both fell in love with their daughter.
Those first few years of their daughter's life were magical. He was an Excellent father.
He was also excellent to Nancy.
He always cooked dinner. And this wasn't a phase for him. Year after year, Seth showed up for their family and their marriage. She and Seth were a team.
Years into their marriage, they were still very much in love.
Even a neighbor commented on how physically close they seemed.
Nancy was the only one in their house who used the computer.
The username was Peter Parker.
While she was in high school, Carmen Rita Wong's father was arrested for trafficking heroin. Poppy had always been mysterious and constantly had lots of cash. But she had no idea what he really did for work. And it turned out, neither did her older brother, Alex, who'd been making deliveries with their dad.
The cops figured out pretty quickly that Alex was oblivious to Poppy's scheme.
She was relieved for Alex, but also furious at Poppy for putting him in that situation. Ultimately, Poppy was sentenced to 10 years in prison.
Around the same time, Marty lost his job.
When she graduated high school, Carmen was on her own.
And that's what Carmen did. She moved back to New York City where she worked and put herself through college.
In her 20s, Carmen began her career. She'd always wanted to be a writer and she was offered a job.
Carmen was finding her independence, solidifying her sense of self. Meanwhile, things back in New Hampshire were falling apart. Marty never recovered financially after he lost his job.
She wasn't surprised to hear the news about Lupe and Marty's divorce. But for Carmen, life in New Hampshire was in the rearview mirror. She and her brother Alex had both settled in New York. And as adults, they became closer than ever.
After her divorce, Lupe threw herself into religion. Part of that process for her meant reconciling decisions she'd made in the past. So she called Alex to make a kind of confession. Lupe told Alex she had terminated pregnancies, both before Carmen and after.
Five years into their marriage, Nancy found a strange dating website on her work computer with a username she didn't recognize.
Why had Lupe chosen to keep Carmen? The confession brought up those same feelings Carmen had for a long time. The sense that she was missing something. That she didn't have all the information.
Carmen was well into adulthood. Now she wondered, how much did she really know about her own story? Was there something her mother wasn't telling her?
And Nancy didn't either. Besides, her focus was on their daughter who had just started school.
He'd taken a demanding job at the Metro Rail. He often worked overtime hours to make extra money. They were only in their 30s, but they were already planning for an early retirement.
A book where they wrote down their dreams for the future. In order to make those dreams happen, Nancy and Seth worked long hours. The only day they both had off was Sunday. That day was reserved for family.
Lupe was dying. And if Carmen wanted the truth, she was running out of time. That's when she got an unexpected call from Marty. By this point, he was divorced from Lupe and living in Rhode Island.
One Sunday, Nancy was looking forward to their family time. But Seth took an overtime shift.
He said he stayed late to talk to a co-worker who was having a relationship problem.
Marty had known all along.
She knew she'd caught Seth in a lie. He hadn't been at work that day at all, and he certainly hadn't been comforting a co-worker. So where was he? Instead of asking him directly, she decided to wait and see what else she could find out. Plus, she wasn't ready to accuse him of anything.
Carmen had been explicitly told for decades that Marty wasn't her dad. And because of that, Poppy Wong supported them financially. The lie was like a wall that had been built in her family. And Carmen was left on the outside.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Carmen Rita Wong grew up in New York in the 70s. Her earliest memories are of her mom Lupe. Lupe was glamorous.
Carmen left Marty's house enraged and in shock.
Nancy was in bed late one night, and out of their bedroom window, she could see Seth standing outside their house.
It was in that moment that she asked herself a bigger question.
She felt like she was being stripped of her identity as a Chinese Dominican woman. It was an identity she loved and had proudly carried for 30 years.
After that, Seth was spooked. He knew she'd seen something. And Nancy knew that the figure next to him was no guardian angel.
As angry as she was at Marty, she knew who was actually behind this story.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Nancy grew up in Boston in the 70s. She was the youngest of three girls. From birth, she was deemed a medical miracle.
She wasn't about to start spying on him. So she waited.
But she kept setting traps in their conversations just to see how he would react.
So Carmen went to visit her mom in person.
Christmas was coming up, and that year, Seth went all out.
It was a horrible position to be in, confronting her mother about a lie at the very end of her life.
This was Carmen's last chance to get the truth from her mom. And I told her what Marty told me. At first, Lupe was defensive.
As Christmas Day went on, she noticed that Seth was acting strange.
And so Lupe broke down and told Carmen the full story. It started well before Alex and Carmen were born. She explained that her marriage to Poppy was never a love marriage. It was arranged by Lupe's father.
Marrying Poppy Wong had been Lupe's pathway to American citizenship. That's why she cared so much about assimilation, about Carmen making it in this country. But Lupe was never in love with Poppy. He was a means to an end. And Marty, in his own way, was too.
There it was, the confession she'd been waiting for. But it was much bigger than she could have imagined. The revelation was so overwhelming, she passed out.
Marrying Marty might have been opportunistic, but Lupe had actually loved him. She'd been seeing him on the side while in her arranged marriage to Poppy and even gotten pregnant with Marty multiple times. She and Marty weren't going to have children of their own while Lupe was still legally married to another man.
Right after he left, Nancy called her mom. It was 3 a.m., but of course, her mom still picked up.
Poppy showed up and said, no, don't do it. Poppy was certain this baby was his. Poppy vowed to take care of the baby, to support her. And that was enough for Lupe.
The next morning, Seth was at their front door. He needed to pack a bag.
Nancy figured that the dating website she'd seen years earlier was connected to this affair.
Carmen felt like she finally had the full story, the truth.
Seth had been weaving a web of lies for their entire marriage. And Nancy was just starting to unravel it. She told him to expect divorce papers on Monday.
With that conversation, their marriage was over. They'd been together for 15 years. Nancy thought she'd heard the worst of it, but she'd soon realize his deception was far bigger than an affair.
Oscar de la Renta was one of the most expensive and exclusive designers in the world. First ladies and movie stars wore his designs.
Because of her heart condition, her mother kept a close eye on her. Her activities were restricted. She wasn't even allowed to go to gym class in school. Family and teachers babied her, mostly because she was so small.
Lupe's deathbed confession was the last time Carmen talked to her mother about her origin story. I never brought up that confrontation again.
Carmen was raised in Harlem, and she's proud of where she came from.
After Lupe passed, Carmen began processing all this new information. It meant that she and Alex were technically half-siblings. It was heartbreaking, but it only brought them closer. She leaned on Alex to help her make a big decision, if she should tell Poppy. Because all of these years, Poppy believed both Alex and Carmen were his.
Nancy's 15-year marriage was blown apart when her husband confessed to getting another woman pregnant. But that wasn't the whole story. The real story started before Seth and Nancy even met. Here's what Seth confessed.
After all, Poppy had been there for her, for her entire childhood, in ways Marty hadn't.
She made a promise to Alex that she wouldn't tell Poppy.
Life moved on for Carmen. She'd been a magazine editor, an advice columnist, and had hosted a national TV news show. She had made it.
The night Nancy first met Seth at the Caribbean club, that wasn't fate. It was orchestrated. She'd been singled out by Seth's Uncle Marvin, you know, the guy from work. And he invited Nancy there for a purpose.
She felt lucky meeting Seth at the club. But it turns out it was all planned for one goal.
They saw the tests as a novelty. Carmen, Alex, and one sister all took the test. They wanted to know more about their heritage.
When Nancy got pregnant, she knew Seth was still on his visa.
It had been over a decade since Lupe passed away. Carmen already knew who her biological father was, so she was prepared to see that she was half Italian, from Marty's side.
She was having a baby and was scared to lose that. So back then, Nancy had jumped into action.
The first result to come in was the heritage portion. It revealed she wasn't half Italian, like Marty. She was half Spanish.
Nancy saw the green card as another piece of paperwork they needed to get married. She had no idea she was part of an elaborate scheme.
And to add insult to injury, Seth had another reason why he chose Nancy.
The familial DNA was still processing, so she couldn't see the family tree.
When the DNA came in, she and Alex's family got on a FaceTime call to check the results together.
This revelation made her feel as if her whole relationship was manufactured, that she'd been used.
Every day of their marriage, he welcomed her home with a glass of wine and a home-cooked meal. Nobody had ever shown her love like this before. If Nancy was just a means to an end, why did Seth bother staying with her for 15 years? Well, Nancy asked him that directly.
As a kid, Nancy went to the cardiologist every week for her heart condition. She wasn't scared about it, but she knew her mom was.
Neither Poppy nor Marty were Carmen's biological father. Her mother had lied on her deathbed. The whole story she gave Carmen was not true. She'd lied to Carmen, to Marty, and to Poppy.
Her mother was gone, and she'd taken the full story with her. Even when Carmen demanded the truth, her mother hadn't given it to her. And now Carmen was nowhere close to finding the real answer. The test told her who her father wasn't, but it didn't reveal who her biological father could be.
Nancy had assumed the affair was from Seth's online dalliances as Peter Parker, but it turns out he'd been with the other woman for their entire marriage.
Seth finally confessed his double life to Nancy because he was just in too deep. It turns out the pregnancy he told Nancy about wasn't the first one. He had a whole other family.
Her brother Alex wasn't going to let Carmen go it alone. So he became her right hand on this journey.
They got to work. Their first stop, Miami, to visit their mother's lifelong best friend.
All those years Seth claimed to be working overtime, he was actually going over to his other house, to his other children. It shattered Nancy's reality.
No luck. Carmen and Alex spent months researching and investigating to get answers. But they kept coming up short. It was frustrating.
Their daughter was 14 at the time, and Nancy wanted to protect her from the reality of her father's dishonesty. She tried to maintain a sense of stability for her and her daughter. She moved to a new place while they figured out the divorce, divided their assets, and split up shared lives.
It only furthered his resolve to help his sister.
He stayed committed to helping Carmen find answers right up until the end.
Carmen's parents were separated. She lived with her mom and spent the weekends with her dad in Chinatown.
They were waiting to put the house on the market until the divorce was final. In the meantime, clearing out the old house was a constant chore.
In the wake of this loss, Carmen was left asking herself so many questions.
Seth short-sold their house without telling Nancy. The person who'd opened the door was the new owner.
She had so much pain, confusion, and anger. At this point, Carmen was thriving in her career as a professional writer. So she decided to use her writing skills to process these big questions. Questions that might go unanswered forever. She got a book deal at Penguin Random House. It would be a memoir called, Why Didn't You Tell Me?
Since it was a short sale, there wasn't even a profit to divide in their divorce, even though she'd paid half the mortgage for a decade. It felt like a slap in the face. She couldn't move out on her own terms. But to make matters worse, some of her most prized possessions were still sold with the house. and she would never see them again.
Shortly after, she turned in the first draft of the book.
She thought he was the epitome of cool.
After they separated, Seth wasted no time stepping into his new life. After all, he'd been building it for some time.
Nancy was left to pick up the pieces. It all took an intense toll.
And just like that, Carmen got the answer she'd been waiting for. Who her biological father was. And to her surprise, it was a man she'd never heard of. He was from the Canary Islands. And this whole time, he'd been much closer than she imagined.
She racked her brain for any memory of this man, but she didn't have one. So she asked her newfound half-sister if there was any way she could meet him. That's when she learned.
She surpassed medical expectations and grew up to be healthy. But doctors told her she wouldn't be able to have kids of her own. The entire experience made Nancy and her mom really close.
It took years to recover emotionally and feel like herself again. And now, 15 years post-divorce, she's proud of how far she's come.
If she couldn't meet him, she wanted to find out anything she could about his family. She learned her father was one of 11. And the youngest? Her name is Carmen.
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
At this point, Carmen didn't know if Lupe ever knew who her father was, let alone if the biological father ever knew. But then her half-sister told her something interesting.
Carmen's biological father had known she was out there. That's the most proof she'll ever get about what Lupe really knew. It was the end of a roller coaster. Carmen's identity had been shifting for nearly her entire adult life.
Carmen and her older brother Alex cherished these weekends with Poppy in his neighborhood.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
She called the editor of her book, the one she'd just finished, and said, Um, we're going to need an epilogue.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
It's a unique position to have your fundamental identity shipped multiple times in your adult life. This is what she's learned from that experience.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Carmen believes Lupe had a reason for keeping the secret. She thought back to moments in her childhood, like her mom's Mona Lisa smile, when a nun said Carmen must be smart because she was half Chinese. After all these years, Carmen has come to an understanding about her mom's choices.
Early on in her life, Nancy saw that her father was treated differently than her mother.
Now in her 50s, she's oriented herself to who she is and what family means to her.
She didn't know what her father did for work, but whatever it was, it was important.
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
on the next episode of Betrayal.
Her father was Black, and other kids teased Nancy about having interracial parents.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
But in Chinatown, Carmen stood out. She and Alex looked more Dominican than Chinese.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Even though Poppy wasn't around every day, he supported Carmen and Alex financially.
When Nancy was a teenager, she met a boy in her neighborhood named Devon. He was always trying to catch her eye.
When the weekend was over, Poppy would bring the kids back uptown.
One day, Devon brought her a present.
She and Devon became high school sweethearts.
Their parents' separation forged a strong bond between Carmen and her brother Alex.
Their plan was to be together forever. And to this day, Nancy still wishes they could have been. But tragedy derailed their future.
They hung out after school, watching Godzilla and kung fu movies on the floor of their aunt's, cousin's, and friend's living rooms. But then one day, Carmen and Alex found themselves in an apartment they didn't recognize.
He was in that car accident. He was a passenger in the collision, and they needed the jaws of life to pull him out of the car.
She and her brother started sleeping over at this man's apartment.
She was by his side when he woke up from the coma.
Marty and Lupe's relationship moved very quickly. They started dating and then marriage.
Without warning, Lupe and Marty decided to move the family to New Hampshire.
After his traumatic brain injury, it wasn't the same relationship. It was a lot for a 17-year-old to manage emotionally. Nancy made the tough decision to leave Devon and focus on herself. She started her own life in Boston, working in the office of a stock brokerage. By her early 20s, she was living on her own and fully supporting herself.
The marriage and the move to New Hampshire was a big adjustment. Even just getting around town was a new experience. Carmen's mom lived in New York City for her entire adult life and didn't know how to drive a car.
Every day on her lunch break, Nancy chatted with a guy who worked outside her building.
His name was Marvin, and Marvin became a fixture in her daily life, a friendly face that she felt comfortable with.
This was the first time she realized that she could be judged by the color of her skin.
He was Jamaican, and Nancy's dad was from Cuba, so she was interested in Boston's Caribbean community. That weekend, as promised, she and her friends stopped by. It was a lively scene with music and dancing.
And the culture shock didn't end there.
But she hardly noticed because she got distracted by a guy her age named Seth.
Her mother taught her that being a good student was a way to blend in, to assimilate.
Seth wasn't exactly her type.
Nancy and her friends decided to leave the party before it got too late.
Lupe enrolled Carmen in Catholic school, where her teachers were nuns. One night, at a parent-teacher conference... Sister Rita, I'll never forget, says to my mother...
Nancy found it endearing. She thought she was meeting up with a friend from work and instead ended up meeting this nice guy. It felt like fate. The next day, Seth called.
He worked just a few blocks down from her apartment, so they agreed to meet up for lunch. Seth recently moved to Boston from Jamaica.
She loved his Jamaican accent, especially the way he said her name. She also liked his easygoing personality. So she said yes to a second date. That's where he really impressed her. He cooked for me.
Not only did Carmen feel like an outsider at school, but she began feeling that way in her own family, especially as her mom and Marty started having children of their own.
She hadn't had a serious boyfriend since Devon in high school, and Seth reminded her a bit of him. He went out of his way to make her feel special, just like Devon had.
Lupe reminded Carmen and Alex that they already had a father back in New York and that he was the one supporting them financially.
After they'd been dating for a few months, Seth took Nancy to meet his uncle. He was one of a few people in Seth's family who also immigrated to Boston. When Nancy walked through the door, she was shocked. And I was like, I know him. It was Marvin, Nancy's lunch break buddy.
She missed Poppy and their weekends together in Chinatown.
Years later, Nancy would find out it wasn't much of a coincidence at all. That summer, she and Seth took their first vacation together. We went to New Hampshire, Hampton Beach.
Marty, even though he was distant, was the closest thing she had. So she started to call him dad.
She and Marty developed their own kind of bond.
Nancy had lived her whole life believing she'd never have kids. She told Seth she couldn't get pregnant. When she found out that she was expecting, it felt like another medical miracle. Her first call was to her mom. She was like, yeah, you'll have to get married now.
It went on this way well into her teenage years, especially when Alex graduated from high school.
It seemed old-fashioned, but she trusted her mom to guide her in the right direction.
He'd been the only person Carmen felt like was truly hers. The only one who really understood her. Poppy was financing Alex's education at an elite college.
One summer, Alex was helping Poppy at his job, delivering boxes of costume jewelry around New York.
He lied about his age. He wasn't 26 like he said. He was 19. Nancy was 23 at the time. Seth gave her a simple explanation.
It turned out those deliveries Poppy was making... Well, underneath the jewelry in the boxes...
Seth insisted that it wasn't a big deal.
She couldn't change his age, so she signed the papers.
A few weeks later, Nancy and Seth had a small wedding. The couple set their sights on parenthood. They got an adorable apartment on the top floor of a converted Boston mansion, complete with a castle-like turret.
Sarah's pregnancy was a fresh start for her, a chance to mold a new life in a safe, supportive family. It started with her and Paul.
She reached out to her friends who had young kids, and she started by calling two friends whose parenting styles she admired. Being bedridden for her entire pregnancy meant she had a lot of time on her hands. She browsed group after group until she found one that really resonated. And it was a huge community.
She started spending hours every day in the group, reading every post and asking questions of her own.
Sarah made real friends through the group, and she noticed a pattern.
For Sarah, this was more than just a Facebook group. It was personal. She was estranged from her family. So this group became a real community, supporting her through pregnancy and celebrating with her.
There was a hierarchy in the group. Four admins approved every post and enforced the community guidelines.
Sarah had a lot in common with one of the admins, who we'll call Becky.
Becky was a successful attorney who'd overcome a great deal of adversity.
Becky's toddler had passed away unexpectedly. She was a resource and a guiding light for other parents in the group who experienced the same tragedy. Becky managed this grief while raising six other kids. But the tragedy didn't end there. Her oldest child had recently been the victim of an anti-gay hate crime.
awful. Becky posted all the details of the hate crime in the group.
But despite all this hardship, Becky was thriving in her career and putting her all into raising her six children. She was a super mom.
Becky posted videos of herself giving updates on her family's life. In all the videos, she was alone.
She wanted to connect with other parents. Becky's husband and their oldest kids were all on Facebook too. Her whole family was for the most part on Facebook. Becky and her husband were always flirting with each other in the group. It was a lot. It seemed like it was in good fun, but it was uncomfortable to see publicly.
When Sarah joined the group, she was finishing the process of converting to Judaism. She looked to Becky as a resource and inspiration for raising kids in the Jewish faith. But when Sarah tried to connect over this, Becky wasn't interested.
It wasn't just that they were both Jewish. They were interested in the same things.
But Becky would post videos of herself showcasing her language learning skills.
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is the story of an entire community. One group of parents who experienced a shocking deception and overcame it together. We'll hear more from the larger community later. But for the majority of this episode, we're going to tell it through one person's perspective.
Sarah learned that Becky was also a convert. It's not that common, so she really wanted to bond over that shared experience.
And there was another reason she felt connected to Becky. They both had difficult upbringings. When Becky posted about her childhood, Sarah chimed in. She understood because she'd been through some of the same things.
Sarah began to worry that maybe she'd said something to offend Becky. And I was like, oh.
Sarah would ask Becky about things like breastfeeding and keeping kosher.
The interactions with Becky always left her feeling worse than before. She wasn't even a parent yet, but she started to doubt her ability to raise her son in the Jewish faith. I don't know anything.
In the winter of 2020, Sarah's son was born. She had unexpected complications, and the birth didn't go as planned.
About 2% of women develop postpartum psychosis after they give birth. It can start with obsessive thoughts about the baby's well-being and concerns that something is wrong. But it spirals into hallucinations and delusions. It's a condition that can be really dangerous for both the mother and the baby.
She was scared and she didn't know what was going on. So she reached out to a doctor.
This lasted for two months until she hit a breaking point.
After she left the hospital, she was stable. But the experience was traumatic. So there was still some fear there.
We'll call her Sarah. Sarah is living her best life as an organic farmer in Vermont. She exudes cool. She's covered in tattoos and rocks a shaved head.
So she turned to her support system, the parenting group.
She would know, not me. Sarah didn't just need advice. She needed someone who'd been through this and made it out on the other side to tell her that she was going to be okay, that it wasn't her fault and that she wasn't a bad mom. But Becky did the opposite.
Not being cut out for parenting was Sarah's worst fear. At the time, she was isolated by COVID and her postpartum recovery. So Becky's words cut deep.
This was one of the darkest times in Sarah's life. She was suicidal with a newborn. To keep herself grounded, Sarah focused on the positives she did have.
A mikvah is a spiritual ceremony, and it can be used to officially anoint someone in the Jewish faith. So Sarah's first mikvah was like a baptism.
She grew up in the Northeast as the oldest child in her family. When she was little, her parents struggled to make ends meet, and her father battled addiction. Sarah remembers a time when her parents were skeptical about organized religion. Even the Christian undertones in cartoons like VeggieTales made her parents uncomfortable.
During the postpartum recovery, her faith was everything. She started teaching her son Yiddish and leaning into her identity as a Jewish parent.
Slowly, Sarah and her husband learned to parent in a way that felt right to them. The Facebook group was instrumental in helping them get there. As their son got older, Sarah began to have more questions about raising a child in an interfaith marriage.
At the time, Becky had made a post about how she keeps a kosher kitchen.
Sarah was considering keeping kosher for the first time herself. So in the comments section, she asked a follow-up question about setting up a kosher kitchen. I just had a question about separate sides of the kitchen. Because I haven't done it. But strangely, Becky deleted her comment from the post. It was weird.
Pretty soon, Sarah would get an answer to that question. One, she wasn't expecting.
But when Sarah was around 10, her parents' religious beliefs began to shift.
It started when her mom was recruited to join a local church.
After three years of interacting with Becky, an admin in Sarah's parenting group, the truth was revealed. Becky wasn't who she said she was.
The community was reeling. Sarah went to the Facebook page and Becky was gone.
200 of the most active group members were all in a text called Therapy Sesh, comparing their notes, trying to understand what was happening.
Becky had posted videos of herself, her real self, with her real name. But nearly everything else about her was a lie. She didn't have six kids. She didn't have any. She had never been a parent at all.
There was no husband. Becky just made a fake account where she posed as her husband and filled out his profile using stolen pictures from the internet.
Some people were friends with Becky in real life, and they were blindsided too. People had met her in person while she was pregnant.
Becky lied about the death of her two-year-old daughter to a group of parents, some of whom had actually lost kids of their own.
Quiverful is a fundamentalist Christian movement focused on having and raising as many children as possible. Her parents seemed happy in their new church, and they became more involved in Sarah's life than ever. I just turned 11 at this time.
It was the extent of her lies that kept people from questioning her.
The admins, the people most intimately involved in running the group, were the ones who discovered Becky's fraud. And they needed answers.
After Becky's accounts were deleted, the parenting group banded together to find out more about the real Becky.
There was one thing she didn't lie about. She was actually a lawyer, and the kind of lawyer who protected vulnerable people.
One of the admins gathered evidence and reported Becky's actions to the Bar Association in her home state. But as far as the group knows, nothing has ever come of that report.
It was very real for Sarah, especially when she found out she wasn't Jewish at all. For three years, Sarah was repeatedly dismissed and belittled by Becky, told that she didn't know what she was talking about when it came to her faith.
And worst of all, when Sarah was going through a mental health crisis, Becky was there, saying she'd been through something similar and telling Sarah that maybe she wasn't cut out to be a parent.
It was an insidious kind of interaction that undermined Sarah's trust in herself. Becky was like a personification of Sarah's worst fears.
This church became her new normal.
But then she started seeing it all differently.
She's not just talking about parenting. She's talking about persevering after a tough childhood and homelessness, finding identity in a new religion, and surviving a postpartum mental health crisis.
One question Sarah still has is that out of all the groups to catfish, why did Becky choose this one?
Becky's deception changed the group. But for Sarah, it brought her closer to the other real parents out there who really wanted to connect and support each other. A lot of people did actually just disappear.
For an 11-year-old, the potluck desserts, like Jell-O, were enticing.
We first heard about this story through someone else, another mom, who wrote into our email, BetrayalPod at gmail.com. On Betrayal, we share stories about how one person couldn't see the deception right in front of them. But in this case, it was a group of thousands of people, a whole community. So we asked members to send in voice notes about how Becky impacted them. This is what they said.
When the community found out that Becky was a fraud, that deception felt personal.
Sarah doesn't like the framing of looking on the bright side or the silver lining, but she did learn something from all of this. Here's Sarah again.
We are having a little girl. And this time around, she's feeling more confident in herself.
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
On the next episode of Betrayal.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Melchiorri and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The standards around purity were very high.
Sarah's naturally curious. And that was tough to navigate in this community.
Her little sister, who was nine, struggled and was deemed a bad kid by church standards.
Some families in their church had as many as 20 children. For the church, big families served a higher purpose.
So they're like, you've got to have babies now. Even though they already had six kids, Sarah's mom felt pressure to grow their family. But she was struggling to have more.
The church believed that God blessed you with as many kids as you could handle. So if a family was struggling to have more children, it was because their existing kids were disobedient. In order to get closer to God, Sarah's mom tried to control her kids. And she did it by following the church's teaching.
Sarah was only 12 when her mom asked her to use a switch on her newborn sister.
This was a defining moment for Sarah.
She started questioning the church, specifically how they parented and the strictly enforced gender roles.
When Sarah was 14, she started going to public school. This was actually a form of punishment. But there she met a new friend who opened her eyes to another way of living. And her friend's mom was worried about Sarah's home life.
She adored her new foster family, especially her foster mom.
And I was like, oh, cool. Through her foster family, she was welcomed into the Jewish faith. They nurtured her natural curiosity.
Sarah was smart and inquisitive about the world, but she'd fallen behind in school.
On her 18th birthday, Sarah dropped out. After that, she decided to leave her foster family's home too.
She didn't leave everything from her old life behind. She still wanted faith in her life somehow. Being exposed to Judaism in her foster family inspired Sarah to officially convert.
She also decided to start dating. That's when she met Paul. She was swiping on Tinder and his profile made her laugh.
They dated casually for about six months, going on dates when they both had time and money to spare. That was until... the day of COVID lockdown in 2020, I found out I was pregnant. As soon as she saw the pregnancy test, she knew she would keep the baby.
She was prepared to go it alone with or without Paul. After she took a few minutes to process the news, she called him.
After that day, Sarah moved in with him. On some level, she felt prepared for parenthood. After all, she'd been taking care of young children her whole life.
But the environment she'd grown up in wasn't emotionally healthy or nurturing. And she knew one thing for certain. She wasn't going to raise her baby the way she was raised. She would have to find another way. She would need resources.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Ryan took that first weekend with Jacques slow.
He already knew they had a magnetic attraction. He wanted to get to know Jacques on a deeper level.
They stayed up late and talked about their lives. Jacques had multiple citizenships, spoke four languages, and owned homes around the world, all thanks to his illustrious career.
He traveled for work nearly every week and was really well-connected, which came with a lot of perks. It wasn't just his resume that impressed Ryan. It was also his commitment to health and fitness.
Like Ryan, he was present, emotionally intelligent, empathetic.
Jacques was the full package, the right guy that Ryan had been waiting for. When he went back to New York, Ryan was almost giddy.
They made plans for Ryan to go to Miami again just a few weeks later. And this time, he stayed at Jack's apartment. It was all white with tall ceilings and big glass windows. Ryan could see himself spending a lot more time there.
That night, they made it official.
They started dating long distance, but that didn't stop them from daydreaming about their future together.
The distance became excruciating. After every visit, Ryan fell more in love with Jacques and with Miami.
One day when Ryan was back in New York, he got a surprising text from Jacques.
That date was their anniversary, the day they made it official.
They started making plans for Ryan to move in. He couldn't get a full-time teaching position in Miami until next year. So he'd have to pick up classes when he could.
At the time, Jacques was the CMO at a luxury hotel brand. He could afford to cover some of their bills. Before they took the big step to move in together, Ryan invited him to meet his parents, who'd also relocated to Florida. His parents loved the idea of Ryan being close by. When they met for dinner, Jacques made a big first impression.
In fact, Jacques arrived at the dinner straight from a day of work at the CEO's estate.
Jacques seemed a bit nervous, but he passed the test for Ryan's parents. After that, the move to Miami was just a matter of logistics.
When he got there, life with Jacques was better than he imagined.
He knew Jacques was the one and it came from the simple moments.
Everything was going smoothly until one day Jacques came home and said he quit his executive marketing job just out of the blue.
The announcement rattled Ryan, especially considering that Jacques assured him that he would support the couple financially.
And he was well-connected in the marketing world. He said he'd find another job, no problem. And Ryan trusted him. Ryan focused on settling into the new city, making friends, and exploring Miami's music scene. One of his favorite bands was coming into town, so he borrowed his dad's credit card to get presale tickets. A few weeks later, Ryan logged in to pay off the bill.
He contested the charge and submitted a report. And he told his parents to keep him posted about the fraudulent charge. A few weeks later, he was in between teaching classes when he got a text from his mom. She wanted to talk on the phone right away. Her formality scared him. He feared a family emergency.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. A few months ago, my twin sister called me. She wanted to connect me with someone who had a betrayal story of his own. It was her favorite fitness instructor, Ryan Lewis. Ryan's a force of nature.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Ryan's parents called in with news about a fraudulent charge on their credit card. They'd done a full investigation and traced the charge to a divorce lawyer in Fort Lauderdale. What they found was Jacques had met with a lawyer and he charged that meeting to their Amex.
Ryan wanted answers. He needed to hear Jacques explain himself.
They fought that whole night until Jacques finally confessed that, yes, he was in the process of getting divorced.
He said that using Ryan's credit card, or his parents' credit card rather, was just an accident. But that confession was quickly overshadowed by what Ryan discovered next. He wanted to search Jacques' phone to see if there was anything else he was hiding.
For each person he talked to, Jacques was putting on a totally different persona, and Ryan didn't recognize any of them.
Ryan has an infectious energy. I can attest to this firsthand because I used to take his class in my hometown. Not only does he have the best music, but the way he motivates the class, it's not just physical, it's also emotional. I may or may not have cried in his class before.
Ryan scrolled through Jacques' messages with dozens of guys. He was furious and heartbroken, but also confused because Jacques didn't have one story about his life. He had many.
Jacques' story was that these flings happened before he started dating Ryan. But it was a bold lie, considering Ryan could see the timestamps on the messages and knew it wasn't true. So he decided to DM one of the guys.
Ryan confronted him again, and that's when he saw a new side of Jacques.
Seeing Jacques distraught and vulnerable triggered Ryan's need to help to make it better.
It also reminded him of his own rock bottom 10 years earlier, when his boyfriend at the time stuck by him and got him the help he needed to get sober.
Jacques was talking about his mistakes openly with Ryan, which felt like the right step. And Ryan knew that relationships were nuanced.
So they set up new boundaries, boundaries that Jock agreed to.
Ryan's inclined to put other people's happiness first, sometimes to a fault. And one of his core values is to assume the best in others.
Ryan was comfortable giving Jacques a second chance.
They had done their own research on Jacques.
Jacques was named in a lawsuit over an illegal sublet and unpaid rent scheme in the Hamptons. The case amounted to fraud worth over $100,000. But there was an explanation. It was his ex-husband, the one from the green card marriage. He was actually the one responsible for those charges. But because they were married, Jacques was also named on the lawsuit.
Ryan's parents didn't buy it. And in fact, it created a rift between them. The first one they ever had.
Ryan doubled down and said he wouldn't be coming home for Thanksgiving if Jacques couldn't come too. He felt that Jacques deserved a second chance, just like everyone else. And his parents just didn't understand. Soon, Jacques was no longer the problem. The problem became Ryan's parents.
During this time, Ryan needed to buy a new car for work. With their relationship seemingly on the right track, he and Jacques decided to go in on their dream car together.
They ordered the car and had it fully customized.
Then the first car payment came.
But Ryan never got an email receipt about these payments.
There it was, proof that Jacques was not only stealing money from him, but he was covering it up.
When Ryan made this discovery, Jacques was out of the house. So he took the opportunity to run.
He grew up outside of Philadelphia in a well-to-do family. He's very close with his parents and siblings. The family is ambitious, academic.
His parents forgave him immediately. But the process of leaving Jacques was just beginning.
Ryan thought he was going to spend the rest of his life with this man, and now he wasn't sure if anything he'd been told was true. He needed to talk to Jacques' ex-husband, you know, in the green card marriage.
His ex had a lot to say about Jacques, especially the lies he discovered in their marriage.
As a teenager, Ryan got into theater, and his parents were at every performance, like when he was cast as Jean Valjean in a local theater production of Les Mis.
Did he ever fight in the IDF? Or was that another lie? All those stories Jacques told him about how his ex-husband was leeching off him, the opposite was true. Ryan and Jacques' ex talked almost every week for those first few months. They were both members of a crappy club.
Ryan also found a mutual friend, someone who'd known Jacques in St. Barts. He'd been invited to Jacques' childhood home, which was a huge mansion.
After Ryan got out of the relationship and started to see the deception and lies for what they were, he developed a new theory about Jacques. Jacques had always seemed to be so perceptive. He always knew what Ryan was thinking and what he was worried about before he even said anything. But maybe it was more sinister than just intuition.
When Jacques was out of the apartment, Ryan would talk on the phone to his friends, his parents, his therapist.
No wonder he was so intuitive. He was listening in on Ryan's therapy sessions all along. It was total manipulation to make Ryan feel like Jacques truly saw him, understood him, loved him. How much money did Ryan lose in this relationship? This is what he estimates.
Ryan stayed in Florida and so did Jacques in the same apartment. Ryan doesn't want to leave Miami because he loves it there. They have run into each other from a distance.
It's strange watching from the sidelines as Jacques continues a life of deception and lies. As for that tattoo that Jacques got, the one with their anniversary date on his finger, it was one of many tattoos Jacques had. Tattoos that Ryan now sees differently.
After graduating high school, he went to NYU.
Ryan's ready to let go of the shame and self-blame he felt after this betrayal. And telling his story is part of that release. We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
Thank you so much for having me. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
He started his first serious relationship with a guy he met online. He was 11 years older than Ryan, and he had an established job in finance.
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca and Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
The two of them would go on benders together, partying and doing cocaine. When the relationship ended, Ryan's cocaine use didn't. His next boyfriend noticed it immediately.
He fell in love with this new guy. It was the first time he could see himself with someone long-term. But all the while, Ryan was lying to him, hiding his drug use. His boyfriend would draw a line in the sand, Ryan would promise to get clean, but then he'd end up using again, and the cycle would repeat itself. Ryan says that this was his rock bottom.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Ryan started going to outpatient rehab every day. He and his boyfriend ultimately separated. Today, Ryan's been sober for 10 years. Back when he first got sober, he found a new clarity on his priorities. He was 23, a recent graduate with a degree in business administration, and he landed a corporate marketing job. But getting sober changed him, and marketing analytics felt empty.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
And what he was passionate about was fitness.
He went so often that one day an instructor asked if he would be interested in teaching.
But he decided to give it a shot, no matter what his parents thought.
Of course, he was hired and began instructor training. Right away, he knew that this wasn't just a job. It was going to be his career.
After investing his entire 20s in growing his career, he wanted a partner he could build a life with, someone who could match his passion and energy.
In 2019, Ryan got a coveted summer position teaching in the Hamptons. He was on the dating apps, but wasn't expecting to find anything serious. After all, it's a vacation town.
Ryan had a lot of unopened messages on his dating apps. But one day he got a message that piqued his interest. It was from a guy we're going to call Jacques.
Jacques invited him over and Ryan didn't hesitate.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
When he got to Jacques' house in the Hamptons, he was impressed. Jacques was a high-level marketing executive with the lifestyle to match.
After their fling, he and Jacques followed each other on Instagram. Summer was nearly over when they met, so Ryan returned to his regular teaching position in the city without seeing him again. Over the next few years, their only contact was the occasional emoji DM. That was until Ryan posted a photo from his family vacation.
Even though it was a few years since they met, their chemistry still felt electric. Ryan had moved back to New York City and Jacques was living in Miami. So Ryan made plans to go visit him there. A couple days before Ryan was set to arrive, Jacques called.
It wasn't ideal, but he was struck by Jacques' generosity.
They weren't able to stay together at Jacques' place, but Jacques had a solution. A friend with an Airbnb said that they could use it at a discount. So Ryan paid him $500 for the place and boarded a plane to Miami.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, Betrayal family. It's Andrea Gunning. I want to introduce you to a new weekly true crime show that our team at Glass Podcast has just launched. It's called American Homicide and is hosted and produced by my colleague Sloane Glass, who I have here today. Hi, Sloane. Hi, Andrea. You guys may not know this, but Sloane worked on season two of Betrayal, so she's very...
You know, I think you guys did an incredible job and they were in great hands with you. And I'm so curious, what made you want to take on a project like American Homicide?
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
You're phenomenal. The storytelling is fantastic. The episodes that I have heard, you are just at every twist and turn, just on the edge of your seat. And I don't doubt that the Betrayal audience is going to love it. So without further ado, here's American Homicide, Father's Day Murders, part one.
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Joel Kern was a respected lieutenant at the Colorado Springs Police Department. But Joel used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Joel Kern was a respected lieutenant at the Colorado Springs Police Department. But Joel used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline.
What did you do? Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. Did part of you know deep down that this was wrong? Yes.
What did you do? Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. Did part of you know deep down that this was wrong? Yes.
He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception, on and off the clock. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception, on and off the clock. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
At first, he said the Patrons were dreading that phone call from police, the call that would confirm that Richard was dead. But now any information would be welcomed information.
At first, he said the Patrons were dreading that phone call from police, the call that would confirm that Richard was dead. But now any information would be welcomed information.
We had the FBI on our side, but we understood that to move forward, we would need both families to participate. It's a painful process, but also an opportunity. The more you talk about a missing person, the more likely it is that someone who knows something will say something. But approaching these families, I knew I would be asking them to relive so much. It's tough.
We had the FBI on our side, but we understood that to move forward, we would need both families to participate. It's a painful process, but also an opportunity. The more you talk about a missing person, the more likely it is that someone who knows something will say something. But approaching these families, I knew I would be asking them to relive so much. It's tough.
Since Jimmy knew the Patrons from childhood, he made an introduction. So we started there.
Since Jimmy knew the Patrons from childhood, he made an introduction. So we started there.
Marge Patron greeted me and my colleague Ben at her front door. It was a bright Sunday afternoon, nearly 19 years after her son Richard and his friend Danielle Imbo vanished. We needed to learn who Richard and Danielle were and understand everything they left behind on February 19th, 2005. We had been told that both families were done speaking to the press.
Marge Patron greeted me and my colleague Ben at her front door. It was a bright Sunday afternoon, nearly 19 years after her son Richard and his friend Danielle Imbo vanished. We needed to learn who Richard and Danielle were and understand everything they left behind on February 19th, 2005. We had been told that both families were done speaking to the press.
Think about it, the closest people to Richard and Danielle had to answer the same questions about their disappearance for over 19 years now. Yet here I was with my partner Ben, standing at the threshold of the Patron's family home to again pick at that scab. It took an introduction from Richard's childhood friend, many conversations, and Vito expressing the importance of participating.
Think about it, the closest people to Richard and Danielle had to answer the same questions about their disappearance for over 19 years now. Yet here I was with my partner Ben, standing at the threshold of the Patron's family home to again pick at that scab. It took an introduction from Richard's childhood friend, many conversations, and Vito expressing the importance of participating.
Ultimately, the Patron's agreed.
Ultimately, the Patron's agreed.
And much to my surprise and relief, Marge welcomed us with a warm, friendly smile. And just like I was told, she immediately wanted to feed us.
And much to my surprise and relief, Marge welcomed us with a warm, friendly smile. And just like I was told, she immediately wanted to feed us.
Marge is a grandmother as well as a mother of three. So hosting us seemed like old hat for Marge. Like we'd been over for dinner many times before, even though this was a first for all of us. And that day Marge invited us for Sunday dinner. And no, this isn't just a meal that happens to fall on Sunday. It's actually a long running tradition for the Patrons.
Marge is a grandmother as well as a mother of three. So hosting us seemed like old hat for Marge. Like we'd been over for dinner many times before, even though this was a first for all of us. And that day Marge invited us for Sunday dinner. And no, this isn't just a meal that happens to fall on Sunday. It's actually a long running tradition for the Patrons.
That's when their family comes together for a big Italian meal. So we felt honored to be invited. It was just before Christmas and every inch of her house was decorated, including the kitchen. That's where we all gathered around a charcuterie board filled with sliced deli meats and cheeses while a huge pot of red gravy bubbled on the stove behind us.
That's when their family comes together for a big Italian meal. So we felt honored to be invited. It was just before Christmas and every inch of her house was decorated, including the kitchen. That's where we all gathered around a charcuterie board filled with sliced deli meats and cheeses while a huge pot of red gravy bubbled on the stove behind us.
Marge's freezer door was lined with several baby pictures and a ton of magnets. She pointed to the Chicago Bears magnet and said it was Richard's favorite football team. And then there was this.
Marge's freezer door was lined with several baby pictures and a ton of magnets. She pointed to the Chicago Bears magnet and said it was Richard's favorite football team. And then there was this.
You might remember Susan Lucci from the long-running daytime TV show, All My Children.
You might remember Susan Lucci from the long-running daytime TV show, All My Children.
Marge explained that she always watched All My Children and how one year for Christmas, Richard surprised her with this Susan Lucci doll.
Marge explained that she always watched All My Children and how one year for Christmas, Richard surprised her with this Susan Lucci doll.
I could tell Richard is Marge's firstborn. She lights up at every mention of his name. Like how he played hockey from the time he was seven until the day he went missing and how she still holds on to Richard's Bobby Clark jersey. That's when her voice trailed off. And as the firstborn, you could say Richard got special treatment.
I could tell Richard is Marge's firstborn. She lights up at every mention of his name. Like how he played hockey from the time he was seven until the day he went missing and how she still holds on to Richard's Bobby Clark jersey. That's when her voice trailed off. And as the firstborn, you could say Richard got special treatment.
Christine and Elisa are Marta's daughters. Christine was also best friends with Danielle Limbaugh. She was supposed to join us for dinner, but Christine backed out at the last minute. Her sister Elisa gave us a clue as to why.
Christine and Elisa are Marta's daughters. Christine was also best friends with Danielle Limbaugh. She was supposed to join us for dinner, but Christine backed out at the last minute. Her sister Elisa gave us a clue as to why.
Alisa is well into her 30s now, but was just a teenager when her brother Richard disappeared.
Alisa is well into her 30s now, but was just a teenager when her brother Richard disappeared.
There was a row of stockings in the living room that hung across their mantle just above the fireplace. I couldn't help but wonder if Richard's stocking was one of them. We all moved to the kitchen table as Marge arrived with a giant bowl of stuffed manicotti and homemade meatballs. It was enough to feed a small army.
There was a row of stockings in the living room that hung across their mantle just above the fireplace. I couldn't help but wonder if Richard's stocking was one of them. We all moved to the kitchen table as Marge arrived with a giant bowl of stuffed manicotti and homemade meatballs. It was enough to feed a small army.
Marge pointed to where Richard sat for 35 years, and then to the empty chair where her husband used to sit. For 40 years, Marge and her husband, Richard Sr., owned and operated a Swedish bakery called Viking Pastries in the suburbs of Philly. That's where Richard and his father worked side by side. The two were very close. Richard Sr. suffered multiple strokes and hasn't been home for a while now.
Marge pointed to where Richard sat for 35 years, and then to the empty chair where her husband used to sit. For 40 years, Marge and her husband, Richard Sr., owned and operated a Swedish bakery called Viking Pastries in the suburbs of Philly. That's where Richard and his father worked side by side. The two were very close. Richard Sr. suffered multiple strokes and hasn't been home for a while now.
You know, I don't want to say that life hasn't gone on for the Patron since Richard disappeared, because it has. But I got the feeling that Marge in particular has been sort of treading water ever since that day. The void Richard left was on full display that Sunday.
You know, I don't want to say that life hasn't gone on for the Patron since Richard disappeared, because it has. But I got the feeling that Marge in particular has been sort of treading water ever since that day. The void Richard left was on full display that Sunday.
Back on February 20, 2005, Richard didn't make it home for Sunday dinner.
Back on February 20, 2005, Richard didn't make it home for Sunday dinner.
Marge said she was out running errands with her husband that afternoon, and she was certain Richard was home. It was the day of the Daytona 500, and Richard had been looking forward to it all week. She's not home, Mom. Christine called Marge from the salon where she worked. She was concerned about Danielle. Yeah, the same Danielle who was with Richard the night before.
Marge said she was out running errands with her husband that afternoon, and she was certain Richard was home. It was the day of the Daytona 500, and Richard had been looking forward to it all week. She's not home, Mom. Christine called Marge from the salon where she worked. She was concerned about Danielle. Yeah, the same Danielle who was with Richard the night before.
Marge and her son Richard were close. They usually talked multiple times a day. But that Sunday, she hadn't heard from him.
Marge and her son Richard were close. They usually talked multiple times a day. But that Sunday, she hadn't heard from him.
One thing to keep in mind. Back in early 2005, most of us had flip phones and texting wasn't common yet. So when our phones rang, we'd actually answer them. The fact that Richard wasn't answering his phone immediately concerned Marge. Christine said the same thing with Danielle.
One thing to keep in mind. Back in early 2005, most of us had flip phones and texting wasn't common yet. So when our phones rang, we'd actually answer them. The fact that Richard wasn't answering his phone immediately concerned Marge. Christine said the same thing with Danielle.
Marge's sister lived down the street from Richard, so she had a spare key and headed over to the apartment. She didn't see Richard's truck parked out front, so she unlocked the door and went inside.
Marge's sister lived down the street from Richard, so she had a spare key and headed over to the apartment. She didn't see Richard's truck parked out front, so she unlocked the door and went inside.
Richard's dog Bismarck was in distress and needed to go out. His food bowl was empty and it was clear Richard had not been home for hours. From everything I've learned today, Richard was a reliable guy, not one to be out of touch. Leaving his family in the dark like this, it was out of character.
Richard's dog Bismarck was in distress and needed to go out. His food bowl was empty and it was clear Richard had not been home for hours. From everything I've learned today, Richard was a reliable guy, not one to be out of touch. Leaving his family in the dark like this, it was out of character.
Christine and Marge feared the worst, but Richard's father wasn't about to jump to conclusions. Richard Sr. was a strong Italian father. He's as much brawn as he is brains. And what his wife was telling him, it wasn't registering.
Christine and Marge feared the worst, but Richard's father wasn't about to jump to conclusions. Richard Sr. was a strong Italian father. He's as much brawn as he is brains. And what his wife was telling him, it wasn't registering.
While the fear was hitting the Patron family, John Ottobre, Danielle's brother, was also realizing Danielle didn't make it home that night.
While the fear was hitting the Patron family, John Ottobre, Danielle's brother, was also realizing Danielle didn't make it home that night.
At the time, John had been trying to support Danielle as much as possible. See, in the last 12 months, Danielle's life had gotten complicated. Danielle had recently separated from her husband, Joe Imbo. To make matters more challenging, Danielle and Joe welcomed their son together just two years prior. In February of 2005, Danielle was in uncharted waters.
At the time, John had been trying to support Danielle as much as possible. See, in the last 12 months, Danielle's life had gotten complicated. Danielle had recently separated from her husband, Joe Imbo. To make matters more challenging, Danielle and Joe welcomed their son together just two years prior. In February of 2005, Danielle was in uncharted waters.
She was a single parent navigating custody of their 20-month-old child and deep in the throes of dissolving her marriage with Joe. Anything John could do to help his sister, he would, whether it be helping out around the condo or looking after the baby.
She was a single parent navigating custody of their 20-month-old child and deep in the throes of dissolving her marriage with Joe. Anything John could do to help his sister, he would, whether it be helping out around the condo or looking after the baby.
So John packed up his tools and went about his day like he would any other.
So John packed up his tools and went about his day like he would any other.
The divorce was nasty. Danielle's mom knew how bad it would look for her daughter if Joe dropped off her son, only to find out Danielle never came home that night and was currently MIA. You see, over the past few months, Danielle had been dating Richard Patron, and Joe knew that. She didn't want to give her soon-to-be ex-son-in-law any ammunition.
The divorce was nasty. Danielle's mom knew how bad it would look for her daughter if Joe dropped off her son, only to find out Danielle never came home that night and was currently MIA. You see, over the past few months, Danielle had been dating Richard Patron, and Joe knew that. She didn't want to give her soon-to-be ex-son-in-law any ammunition.
It was three o'clock that afternoon when Joe arrived to drop off their son. That was the agreed upon time for Joe to end his weekend with the baby.
It was three o'clock that afternoon when Joe arrived to drop off their son. That was the agreed upon time for Joe to end his weekend with the baby.
It was always our intention to start our own investigation, but we had to ask ourselves, where do you start on a case when two people go missing? We started by retracing their last steps. We wanted to understand exactly where Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo were the night of February 19th, 2005.
It was always our intention to start our own investigation, but we had to ask ourselves, where do you start on a case when two people go missing? We started by retracing their last steps. We wanted to understand exactly where Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo were the night of February 19th, 2005.
Marge and her two daughters, Christine and Elisa, had dinner with Danielle Imbo and Danielle's mother at Chickie and Pete's, which is a popular Philadelphia restaurant. Think chicken sandwiches, cheesesteaks, crab fries, and beer. It's a sports bar with games on TVs everywhere, a good place to blow off steam after a long week. Here's Elisa, Richard's sister.
Marge and her two daughters, Christine and Elisa, had dinner with Danielle Imbo and Danielle's mother at Chickie and Pete's, which is a popular Philadelphia restaurant. Think chicken sandwiches, cheesesteaks, crab fries, and beer. It's a sports bar with games on TVs everywhere, a good place to blow off steam after a long week. Here's Elisa, Richard's sister.
Toward the end of dinner, Richard called Danielle to see if she wanted to join him for the evening. Initially, Danielle wasn't sure, but eventually agreed. She was open to making the most of her child-free Saturday night.
Toward the end of dinner, Richard called Danielle to see if she wanted to join him for the evening. Initially, Danielle wasn't sure, but eventually agreed. She was open to making the most of her child-free Saturday night.
Christine agreed to drop her off since Danielle's car was back at her condo in Jersey.
Christine agreed to drop her off since Danielle's car was back at her condo in Jersey.
And that's an important detail from Marge and something to remember. This was a spontaneous meetup between Danielle and Richard.
And that's an important detail from Marge and something to remember. This was a spontaneous meetup between Danielle and Richard.
As for Danielle, her brother John got the story of what happened from his mother.
As for Danielle, her brother John got the story of what happened from his mother.
Danielle had an appointment at a salon the next morning. It was the same salon that Christine Patron worked at. So it's our understanding that from Chickie and Pete's, Christine drives Danielle to meet up with Richard. And Richard and Danielle drive to Abilene's on South Street together.
Danielle had an appointment at a salon the next morning. It was the same salon that Christine Patron worked at. So it's our understanding that from Chickie and Pete's, Christine drives Danielle to meet up with Richard. And Richard and Danielle drive to Abilene's on South Street together.
Journalist Steve Vo covered the story for Philadelphia Magazine and explains what happened next.
Journalist Steve Vo covered the story for Philadelphia Magazine and explains what happened next.
We heard Danielle and Richard spent a couple hours at the bar that Saturday night listening to a band.
We heard Danielle and Richard spent a couple hours at the bar that Saturday night listening to a band.
No one has seen Danielle or Richard since.
No one has seen Danielle or Richard since.
For Vito Rosselli, he lives with the impact of that reality every day. And one of the major factors that has stopped him from solving this case is the evidence, or lack thereof. This happened in 2005, when even basic equipment like security cameras were using outdated technology.
For Vito Rosselli, he lives with the impact of that reality every day. And one of the major factors that has stopped him from solving this case is the evidence, or lack thereof. This happened in 2005, when even basic equipment like security cameras were using outdated technology.
Today, we can track our friends. Everyone essentially has a GPS in their pocket. Plus, there's no shortage of documenting with people recording their life for the whole world to see. But in 2005, people had flip phones and MySpace. Even YouTube didn't come out until February of 2005.
Today, we can track our friends. Everyone essentially has a GPS in their pocket. Plus, there's no shortage of documenting with people recording their life for the whole world to see. But in 2005, people had flip phones and MySpace. Even YouTube didn't come out until February of 2005.
That's former FBI agent Jerry Williams.
That's former FBI agent Jerry Williams.
The community was concerned and law enforcement didn't have much to work with. After those initial days of the investigation, the FBI got tapped in. And the lack of evidence actually started to tell a story to Vito.
The community was concerned and law enforcement didn't have much to work with. After those initial days of the investigation, the FBI got tapped in. And the lack of evidence actually started to tell a story to Vito.
The idea of Richard and Danielle getting hurt or skipping town got rolled out pretty quickly.
The idea of Richard and Danielle getting hurt or skipping town got rolled out pretty quickly.
Vito and Jerry were adamant about one thing. After 19 years of dead ends, they were out of options.
Vito and Jerry were adamant about one thing. After 19 years of dead ends, they were out of options.
Every February 20th, without fail, the city of Philadelphia is reminded of Danielle and Richard.
Every February 20th, without fail, the city of Philadelphia is reminded of Danielle and Richard.
They have not been seen in 13 years, despite an ongoing investigation. And for 19 years now, these segments go out. Tips come in, rinse and repeat.
They have not been seen in 13 years, despite an ongoing investigation. And for 19 years now, these segments go out. Tips come in, rinse and repeat.
Having lived here my whole life, I've watched the segment each February with the rest of Philadelphia. Now I have more of a context as to why. Just like that billboard I mentioned at the beginning, it's a lifeline thrown out for Richard and Danielle and their families. Anything to keep hope for justice alive.
Having lived here my whole life, I've watched the segment each February with the rest of Philadelphia. Now I have more of a context as to why. Just like that billboard I mentioned at the beginning, it's a lifeline thrown out for Richard and Danielle and their families. Anything to keep hope for justice alive.
It's crazy for me to say this, but I think the FBI needs our help and your help. So do Danielle and Richard. The two left a crowded bar in a popular area of Philadelphia on a Saturday night two decades ago. And in those 20 years, we still don't know who wanted to harm them and why.
It's crazy for me to say this, but I think the FBI needs our help and your help. So do Danielle and Richard. The two left a crowded bar in a popular area of Philadelphia on a Saturday night two decades ago. And in those 20 years, we still don't know who wanted to harm them and why.
That's John Ottobre. His sister Danielle went missing in February of 2005. But she wasn't alone. Danielle and her friend Richard left a bar and simply vanished. 19 years later, they still have yet to be found.
That's John Ottobre. His sister Danielle went missing in February of 2005. But she wasn't alone. Danielle and her friend Richard left a bar and simply vanished. 19 years later, they still have yet to be found.
That's next time on There and Gone.
That's next time on There and Gone.
If you have any information about the disappearance of Danielle Imbo and Richard Patron, please call the Citizens Crime Commission tip line at 215-546-8477. Or you can reach out to the show and our team by email at thereandgonepod at gmail.com. That's thereandgonepod at gmail.com. Thank you so much for listening. One way for you to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple podcasts.
If you have any information about the disappearance of Danielle Imbo and Richard Patron, please call the Citizens Crime Commission tip line at 215-546-8477. Or you can reach out to the show and our team by email at thereandgonepod at gmail.com. That's thereandgonepod at gmail.com. Thank you so much for listening. One way for you to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple podcasts.
Don't forget to rate and review because five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. There and Gone is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, Ben Fetterman, and me, Andrea Gunning.
Don't forget to rate and review because five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. There and Gone is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, Ben Fetterman, and me, Andrea Gunning.
It's hosted and written by me, Andrea Gunning, with additional reporting and writing by Ben Fetterman. The series is also written and produced by Todd Gans. Our associate producer is Kristen Melchiorri. Research by Mason Klinder, Anna Hamilton, and Bella Ricci. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio.
It's hosted and written by me, Andrea Gunning, with additional reporting and writing by Ben Fetterman. The series is also written and produced by Todd Gans. Our associate producer is Kristen Melchiorri. Research by Mason Klinder, Anna Hamilton, and Bella Ricci. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio.
Additional editing support by Nico Arruca. There and Gone's theme and original compositions were composed by Oliver Baines and Dari McCauley of Noiser. Music library provided by My Music. Special thanks to both the Patron and Antobre families. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Additional editing support by Nico Arruca. There and Gone's theme and original compositions were composed by Oliver Baines and Dari McCauley of Noiser. Music library provided by My Music. Special thanks to both the Patron and Antobre families. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
So what does the FBI say?
So what does the FBI say?
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is There and Gone, South Street. Episode 1, Ghosts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is There and Gone, South Street. Episode 1, Ghosts.
A note that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating. This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. Discretion is advised. For 15 years, Danielle and Richard were strangers to me, ghosts that loomed over I-95 South. It's the stretch of highway that connects Philadelphia to New York City.
A note that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating. This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. Discretion is advised. For 15 years, Danielle and Richard were strangers to me, ghosts that loomed over I-95 South. It's the stretch of highway that connects Philadelphia to New York City.
Each side is lined with billboards. Most are ads for ambulance chasers or beer. But one shows two smiling faces next to the word missing. It's Danielle Imbo and Richard Patron, and it's been there for almost 20 years.
Each side is lined with billboards. Most are ads for ambulance chasers or beer. But one shows two smiling faces next to the word missing. It's Danielle Imbo and Richard Patron, and it's been there for almost 20 years.
I knew their faces. I knew their names.
I knew their faces. I knew their names.
South Street is one of the busiest and most popular places for nightlife in Philadelphia. At least it was in 2005. Think Bourbon Street, but without the balconies and beats. It's not exactly the same, but you get the idea. No shortage of places to grab a drink and have a good time. It's not a place where two people just vanish, and it's certainly a spot where you'd have plenty of eyewitnesses.
South Street is one of the busiest and most popular places for nightlife in Philadelphia. At least it was in 2005. Think Bourbon Street, but without the balconies and beats. It's not exactly the same, but you get the idea. No shortage of places to grab a drink and have a good time. It's not a place where two people just vanish, and it's certainly a spot where you'd have plenty of eyewitnesses.
Two adults in their mid-30s walk out of a bar and into oblivion. How is that even possible? I live within walking distance of South Street. I've been to those bars and I've walked those same streets. I know how busy they are. So this has often haunted me. The story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo became an anecdote, a Philadelphia urban legend.
Two adults in their mid-30s walk out of a bar and into oblivion. How is that even possible? I live within walking distance of South Street. I've been to those bars and I've walked those same streets. I know how busy they are. So this has often haunted me. The story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo became an anecdote, a Philadelphia urban legend.
If my team was ever going to produce a missing persons podcast, this was the one. And as I'll explain in a bit, it turns out we are way more connected to the story than I originally thought. When I begin working on a story, I usually reach out to law enforcement. From the initial research, it was clear the FBI was involved. So I decided to start there.
If my team was ever going to produce a missing persons podcast, this was the one. And as I'll explain in a bit, it turns out we are way more connected to the story than I originally thought. When I begin working on a story, I usually reach out to law enforcement. From the initial research, it was clear the FBI was involved. So I decided to start there.
That's Jerry Williams. She was an FBI agent and the spokesperson for the Philadelphia Bureau when Danielle and Richard went missing.
That's Jerry Williams. She was an FBI agent and the spokesperson for the Philadelphia Bureau when Danielle and Richard went missing.
Vito. Special Agent Vito Rosselli. He has been working on this case since the very beginning.
Vito. Special Agent Vito Rosselli. He has been working on this case since the very beginning.
Agent Rosselli had spent almost two decades tracking down every lead in this case, but came up short.
Agent Rosselli had spent almost two decades tracking down every lead in this case, but came up short.
I needed to talk to Vito.
I needed to talk to Vito.
Special Agent Vito Rosselli looks and sounds like someone in a TV show who's playing an FBI agent. He's a stocky guy, muscular, with dark skin, and seems like someone you'd want to grab a beer with.
Special Agent Vito Rosselli looks and sounds like someone in a TV show who's playing an FBI agent. He's a stocky guy, muscular, with dark skin, and seems like someone you'd want to grab a beer with.
Vito is a warm and welcoming guy, but I could tell that he carries pieces of this investigation around with him, and that clearly rests heavily on his heart. I don't know how else to explain it, but there's a heaviness to that.
Vito is a warm and welcoming guy, but I could tell that he carries pieces of this investigation around with him, and that clearly rests heavily on his heart. I don't know how else to explain it, but there's a heaviness to that.
Just think about that. Not only are Danielle and Richard missing, but so is the Dodge Dakota pickup truck they were driving. And after 19 years of searching, Vito still has no physical evidence to work with. He's been trying to figure out who wanted to kill either Danielle and Richard without a fingerprint, a tire mark, or a single drop of blood.
Just think about that. Not only are Danielle and Richard missing, but so is the Dodge Dakota pickup truck they were driving. And after 19 years of searching, Vito still has no physical evidence to work with. He's been trying to figure out who wanted to kill either Danielle and Richard without a fingerprint, a tire mark, or a single drop of blood.
But maybe what's stranger than any of that is the why. Because on paper, neither of these two seem to have a target on their back.
But maybe what's stranger than any of that is the why. Because on paper, neither of these two seem to have a target on their back.
Vito has a lot riding on this investigation. Obviously, he felt for Danielle and Richard's families. It's been on his plate since 2005. And all investigators will tell you they always feel like they're racing against time. But Vito had a different clock. You see, in the FBI, there's a mandatory retirement age of 57. And Vito's 57th birthday was fast approaching.
Vito has a lot riding on this investigation. Obviously, he felt for Danielle and Richard's families. It's been on his plate since 2005. And all investigators will tell you they always feel like they're racing against time. But Vito had a different clock. You see, in the FBI, there's a mandatory retirement age of 57. And Vito's 57th birthday was fast approaching.
I've met with Vito a few times now. After those conversations, it's become clear what Vito is missing. testimony, someone who heard something or saw something or remembers anything, anything about what happened on the night of February 19th, 2005. He just needs someone to come forward.
I've met with Vito a few times now. After those conversations, it's become clear what Vito is missing. testimony, someone who heard something or saw something or remembers anything, anything about what happened on the night of February 19th, 2005. He just needs someone to come forward.
This case was a big deal in Philadelphia, and to be fair, it did get national attention, but that interest lasted for like two months, because in May of 2005, an American teenager went missing in Aruba, Natalie Holloway, and the nation turned their attention to her. Slowly, Danielle and Richard faded from public consciousness, but Philadelphia hasn't forgotten.
This case was a big deal in Philadelphia, and to be fair, it did get national attention, but that interest lasted for like two months, because in May of 2005, an American teenager went missing in Aruba, Natalie Holloway, and the nation turned their attention to her. Slowly, Danielle and Richard faded from public consciousness, but Philadelphia hasn't forgotten.
For a big metropolitan city, there is a small town feel here, and it's that close-knit community that keeps their memory alive. See, everybody knows everybody here, or at least knows someone who knows your sister or your cousin or used to work with that guy that you used to work with. All of that is relevant here. The city, its people, it's all important to this story.
For a big metropolitan city, there is a small town feel here, and it's that close-knit community that keeps their memory alive. See, everybody knows everybody here, or at least knows someone who knows your sister or your cousin or used to work with that guy that you used to work with. All of that is relevant here. The city, its people, it's all important to this story.
Philadelphia is the city of brotherly love, and often love extends to loyalty, vows of silence when it comes to nefarious behavior. The FBI undoubtedly believes that there are people who know what happened to Richard and Danielle, but have remained silent. So why now?
Philadelphia is the city of brotherly love, and often love extends to loyalty, vows of silence when it comes to nefarious behavior. The FBI undoubtedly believes that there are people who know what happened to Richard and Danielle, but have remained silent. So why now?
I once heard this theory from law enforcement that when it comes to these types of cases, there are usually three windows of time to solve them. The first few weeks, the first year, and then the next best is the 20th anniversary.
I once heard this theory from law enforcement that when it comes to these types of cases, there are usually three windows of time to solve them. The first few weeks, the first year, and then the next best is the 20th anniversary.
By the time this podcast launches, we'll approach the opening of that final window. Maybe after two decades, perhaps someone's own mortality will change their view and come forward with information. I approached my team about taking this on and knew my producing partner, Ben, would be interested because like me, he grew up in Philadelphia too. He knew this story as well as I did.
By the time this podcast launches, we'll approach the opening of that final window. Maybe after two decades, perhaps someone's own mortality will change their view and come forward with information. I approached my team about taking this on and knew my producing partner, Ben, would be interested because like me, he grew up in Philadelphia too. He knew this story as well as I did.
But there was something I didn't expect. When discussing it with my colleague, Carrie, she went white. She looked at me and said, you know, my brother grew up with Richard Patron and was good friends with him, right? I had no idea. So she put me in touch with her brother, Jimmy.
But there was something I didn't expect. When discussing it with my colleague, Carrie, she went white. She looked at me and said, you know, my brother grew up with Richard Patron and was good friends with him, right? I had no idea. So she put me in touch with her brother, Jimmy.
Jimmy Hartman grew up across the street from Richard and the two immediately became fast friends.
Jimmy Hartman grew up across the street from Richard and the two immediately became fast friends.
Like I said, everybody knows everybody.
Like I said, everybody knows everybody.
So Jimmy not only knew Danielle and Richard, but was even close with Richard's parents, Richard Sr. and Marge Patron.
So Jimmy not only knew Danielle and Richard, but was even close with Richard's parents, Richard Sr. and Marge Patron.
Jimmy said it's been tough to watch the Patron suffer all these years.
Jimmy said it's been tough to watch the Patron suffer all these years.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.