Andrew Marantz

Because I agree, he's doing different things than what Orban is doing. He's doing some Bukele stuff. He's doing some improvisation. I just woke up today and thought of something weird and put it on Truth Social. It's a hodgepodge of stuff.

I mean, Kim Lane Shepela has this term, the Frankenstate, where you can kind of Frankenstein a bunch of legitimate seeming things and make your own new form of an illegitimate state. Now, I don't think anyone would disagree that Trump is not as patient and diligent and well-read as Victor Orban. But, you know, Bolsonaro did a version of this in Brazil.

I mean, Kim Lane Shepela has this term, the Frankenstate, where you can kind of Frankenstein a bunch of legitimate seeming things and make your own new form of an illegitimate state. Now, I don't think anyone would disagree that Trump is not as patient and diligent and well-read as Victor Orban. But, you know, Bolsonaro did a version of this in Brazil.

And yes, he ended up getting defeated in the next election, but he came very close to rigging it in his own favor. And Bolsonaro was not a disciplined, well-read guy either. So there's different playbooks and you can invent new ones as you go. Let me turn this question around, Zach.

And yes, he ended up getting defeated in the next election, but he came very close to rigging it in his own favor. And Bolsonaro was not a disciplined, well-read guy either. So there's different playbooks and you can invent new ones as you go. Let me turn this question around, Zach.

Well, you could make a version of the fighting the last war argument in precisely this context, that the Democrats are learning that maybe they should have waited Trump out more the first time and not done such a big, visibly cringe resistance. And so now they're trying to play dead more than they should.

Well, you could make a version of the fighting the last war argument in precisely this context, that the Democrats are learning that maybe they should have waited Trump out more the first time and not done such a big, visibly cringe resistance. And so now they're trying to play dead more than they should.

Yeah, this is where, again, I would sort of argue for a wider frame. So, like... I think that the timeline can be broad enough that it can contain something like Trump losing some or all of the tech right without him being done for. You know, for example. I'm not saying he's done for. No, no, no. But I mean, even if we're just thinking about where this ends up. Yeah.

Yeah, this is where, again, I would sort of argue for a wider frame. So, like... I think that the timeline can be broad enough that it can contain something like Trump losing some or all of the tech right without him being done for. You know, for example. I'm not saying he's done for. No, no, no. But I mean, even if we're just thinking about where this ends up. Yeah.

Let's say he loses parts of his coalition. Let's say he loses Musk. That would be a big blow to him. But, you know, you've written about Shemeshka in Hungary out of it. Hungarian words are famously hard to say, so I'm sure I'm butchering that. But, you know, the Musk before Musk oligarch who was one of Orban's biggest allies, and then he lost him and he became an opponent.

Let's say he loses parts of his coalition. Let's say he loses Musk. That would be a big blow to him. But, you know, you've written about Shemeshka in Hungary out of it. Hungarian words are famously hard to say, so I'm sure I'm butchering that. But, you know, the Musk before Musk oligarch who was one of Orban's biggest allies, and then he lost him and he became an opponent.

And that was a blow to Orban, but it was not at all fatal to him. So I could totally see a story where... The coalition is big enough and durable enough that it can withstand things like losing the midterms. And it's already done things. I mean, you talk about the Supreme Court. We're already in a timeline where they wouldn't give Merrick Garland a hearing.

And that was a blow to Orban, but it was not at all fatal to him. So I could totally see a story where... The coalition is big enough and durable enough that it can withstand things like losing the midterms. And it's already done things. I mean, you talk about the Supreme Court. We're already in a timeline where they wouldn't give Merrick Garland a hearing.

You know, again, it's like if you heard about this happening in another country, you'd say it doesn't sound super 100 percent democratic to me to not seat your opponent and then seat one of your own people on the Supreme Court. One thing we know about John Roberts is he really wants to seem even-handed.

You know, again, it's like if you heard about this happening in another country, you'd say it doesn't sound super 100 percent democratic to me to not seat your opponent and then seat one of your own people on the Supreme Court. One thing we know about John Roberts is he really wants to seem even-handed.

So if you take a bunch of things to the Supreme Court that are just facially unconstitutional, they're not going to hand you down smack-down 9-0 decisions every time.

So if you take a bunch of things to the Supreme Court that are just facially unconstitutional, they're not going to hand you down smack-down 9-0 decisions every time.

Well, I would say it kind of is changing the structures of American life in the sense that it's how you get a new paradigm. So part of what FDR was doing there was not just politics as usual. It was battering his way to a new political order. So I agree that the biggest challenge to all this is—and someone, a conservative legal scholar, said this to me while reporting the piece—

Well, I would say it kind of is changing the structures of American life in the sense that it's how you get a new paradigm. So part of what FDR was doing there was not just politics as usual. It was battering his way to a new political order. So I agree that the biggest challenge to all this is—and someone, a conservative legal scholar, said this to me while reporting the piece—

If someone were doing this on behalf of policies you like, how much would it bother you? I think that is the hardest question to answer. And we can sit here and say we would be perfectly consistent and non-hypocritical, and who knows if that's true. One key point, though, is that, yes, you work things out in the courts, you challenge the courts. The fact that that is...