Andrew Marantz

If someone were doing this on behalf of policies you like, how much would it bother you? I think that is the hardest question to answer. And we can sit here and say we would be perfectly consistent and non-hypocritical, and who knows if that's true. One key point, though, is that, yes, you work things out in the courts, you challenge the courts. The fact that that is...

an option that's available to you, to me, doesn't put it outside the realm of competitive authoritarianism. If Trump is able to break through to a new political paradigm and get competitive authoritarianism, I think that is part of how he will do it. He'll throw a bunch of stuff to the courts that says the 14th Amendment doesn't say what it says.

an option that's available to you, to me, doesn't put it outside the realm of competitive authoritarianism. If Trump is able to break through to a new political paradigm and get competitive authoritarianism, I think that is part of how he will do it. He'll throw a bunch of stuff to the courts that says the 14th Amendment doesn't say what it says.

And I know you said discrimination against trans people was illegal, but I'm going to do it. And on and on and on and on and on. And if they let him get one out of those 10 things, that is actually how you get competitive authoritarianism. You throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks. And I agree that he's doing it in this flagrant, blatant way.

And I know you said discrimination against trans people was illegal, but I'm going to do it. And on and on and on and on and on. And if they let him get one out of those 10 things, that is actually how you get competitive authoritarianism. You throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks. And I agree that he's doing it in this flagrant, blatant way.

It could be incompetence and impulsiveness. It could be actually that that's part of the strategy. But either way... I don't think he's going to get it by amending the Constitution. I don't think he's going to get it by indefinite martial law. I think if he gets it, it'll be through stuff like this.

It could be incompetence and impulsiveness. It could be actually that that's part of the strategy. But either way... I don't think he's going to get it by amending the Constitution. I don't think he's going to get it by indefinite martial law. I think if he gets it, it'll be through stuff like this.

Look, I mean, I think what we can agree on is that every case is different. we're not the Hungarian case. We can't use a two-thirds majority to rewrite the constitution. But again, you know, this is what I mean about kind of writing to the end of the story instead of seeing what's in front of our nose. Netanyahu didn't win the fight over the judicial reform. Orban loses fights all the time.

Look, I mean, I think what we can agree on is that every case is different. we're not the Hungarian case. We can't use a two-thirds majority to rewrite the constitution. But again, you know, this is what I mean about kind of writing to the end of the story instead of seeing what's in front of our nose. Netanyahu didn't win the fight over the judicial reform. Orban loses fights all the time.

We tell the story in retrospect as Orban, the great genius who got what he wanted. But we know that he loses fights all the time. This is what's competitive in part about competitive authoritarianism. It's still politics. It's still a fight. And so, look, I grant that every case is different. But Bukele did it a different way. Duterte did it a different way. Bolsonaro did it a different way.

We tell the story in retrospect as Orban, the great genius who got what he wanted. But we know that he loses fights all the time. This is what's competitive in part about competitive authoritarianism. It's still politics. It's still a fight. And so, look, I grant that every case is different. But Bukele did it a different way. Duterte did it a different way. Bolsonaro did it a different way.

And ultimately, when the history of this is written, it won't be, oh, he didn't do it the right way. It'll be, did it work?

And ultimately, when the history of this is written, it won't be, oh, he didn't do it the right way. It'll be, did it work?

Right. Right. And facing charges.

Right. Right. And facing charges.

Oh, I think they did in the sense that, look, I agree with you that Trump won't reign forever. Right. The question is, what's the wreckage you leave behind? And we were talking before about how easy would it be to rebuild. I don't think if you come in in Brazil or Poland, you just rebuild right away and everything's cool. I think it takes many, many years to rebuild.

Oh, I think they did in the sense that, look, I agree with you that Trump won't reign forever. Right. The question is, what's the wreckage you leave behind? And we were talking before about how easy would it be to rebuild. I don't think if you come in in Brazil or Poland, you just rebuild right away and everything's cool. I think it takes many, many years to rebuild.

So if what we're talking about is, can you do four years of constitutional damage and then leave? I wouldn't consider that losing.

So if what we're talking about is, can you do four years of constitutional damage and then leave? I wouldn't consider that losing.

Well, one thing that a lot of people in Hungary were saying to me during the piece and then after the piece came out is one downside of talking about autocracy and strongmen and all this stuff is that people often use it as an excuse to turn their brains off and stop thinking creatively and stop trying to have a viable and vital opposition. So one is just... how strong is the civil resistance?