Andrew Revkin

But that's not factored in, right?

That's way outside of what you'd factor in.

But it does feel like, to me, if I was going to make the case for you can choose your trillions, whatever that investing big...

isn't for these marginal things.

It's for looking at the big picture, a world of abundant energy that doesn't come from a black rock or a gooey liquid that when you burn it creates.

But I don't think most people are making that case.

You said something earlier that I took a note down here and I can't find it, about cooperation.

Was it like collaborative cooperation or something like that?

To me, there was a point like in 2013, after just dealing with everything you've been grappling with, if you know you don't know how this is going to work out, what do you work on?

And one morning I made a list of words that kind of summarized basically system properties that give you confidence in a system, trust, and transparency is one, just as you were saying earlier.

Connectivity is another, so everyone's connected.

So on the subsidy issue, for example,

There are young entrepreneurs in Nairobi who are selling ingeniously using Nairobi's digital currency, propane, the fuel that's in our backyard barbecue grills, which comes out of gas wells, but it's a separate fuel, in little increments that poor people can use instead of charcoal.

And LPG subsidies are helping them.

get people off of charcoal, which is a horrific trade from the source through the warlords in Somalia and elsewhere who are getting the money to the pollution in houses.

So being sure when we're having these big debates about who the World Bank is gonna give loans to and drawing a simple line, no more fossil fuel subsidies, hurts a really good, valuable

Small scale, but scalable way to have people not die from cooking smoke in their houses and take down forests.

But that only is considered if they're in the conversation.

So connectivity, full connectivity, digital access.

So those entrepreneurs are in the mix of people.