Andrew Revkin

And if we're always making the judgments based on strict cost benefit, we're gonna miss

larger realities.

Another thing is, another really exciting example of what you're talking about in terms of in Ukraine with the trust and lack of, less corruption and stuff was in India.

For all of his issues, Modi recognized that middle-class people in India cook on LPG, propane, or on piped gas, natural gas if they're in cities.

Much cleaner, much healthier.

in so many ways.

And actually, compared to chopping down trees and cooking on wood, it's actually better for the climate, even though it's a fossil fuel.

So he...

He and others, there was an American scientist, Kirk Smith, who worked this all out.

They were getting a subsidy.

They had that energy subsidy.

You were talking about many poor countries subsidize energy just to stay in office, to make something cheap that everyone wants.

But they wanted to shift the subsidy away from the middle class to the poor people who are cooking on firewood and dying young from pneumonia.

And the critical factor was India's digital currency.

India went to a digital economy.

Very poor families there now, if you have a phone, basically that's your bank.

And you could make the case to the public that we're going to be starting to shift your LPG, your propane subsidy to poor people.

But we know they're poor.

We know they're not just going to be using it behind their restaurant, which was, you know, when it was a general subsidy, people were hoarding the LPG.

And the system has worked.