Andrew Ross Sorkin

And that just seems like you are creating a context where injustice is – even if your intentions are just to bring peace and order to communities along the border or anything else.

And that just seems like you are creating a context where injustice is – even if your intentions are just to bring peace and order to communities along the border or anything else.

I don't think I have you. No, I'm not. All right. Let me be perfectly honest. I'm not interested in having you trapped. We're having a conversation in Rome as a journalist and a vice president, but also as two Catholics, right? I'm giving you shit, Ross. Trust me.

I don't think I have you. No, I'm not. All right. Let me be perfectly honest. I'm not interested in having you trapped. We're having a conversation in Rome as a journalist and a vice president, but also as two Catholics, right? I'm giving you shit, Ross. Trust me.

After that pitch to your soul. And American law. And American law and basic principles.

After that pitch to your soul. And American law. And American law and basic principles.

And so here, as we're talking about moral risks, the vice president himself brings up the case of Kilmar Abrego-Garcia.

And so here, as we're talking about moral risks, the vice president himself brings up the case of Kilmar Abrego-Garcia.

Right. And the vice president wants to go to that controversial, much discussed case. Right. Because in his mind, this is both an edge case that does raise some real moral and political questions, but also ultimately a case that vindicates the Trump administration's approach. And how does it, in his mind, vindicate the administration's approach?

Right. And the vice president wants to go to that controversial, much discussed case. Right. Because in his mind, this is both an edge case that does raise some real moral and political questions, but also ultimately a case that vindicates the Trump administration's approach. And how does it, in his mind, vindicate the administration's approach?

His argument is that in spite of the attempts by liberals and critics of the administration's policy to portray Garcia as a law-abiding, innocent victim, he is in fact exactly the kind of person who should be liable for deportation from the United States.

His argument is that in spite of the attempts by liberals and critics of the administration's policy to portray Garcia as a law-abiding, innocent victim, he is in fact exactly the kind of person who should be liable for deportation from the United States.

Yeah, I think the general administration view is that a lot of the criticisms that they get from critics Democratic politicians and liberal activists and so on are, if not in bad faith, at least just sort of non responsive to what they see as the actual problem that they're trying to solve, that the criticisms are basically intended to set up.

Yeah, I think the general administration view is that a lot of the criticisms that they get from critics Democratic politicians and liberal activists and so on are, if not in bad faith, at least just sort of non responsive to what they see as the actual problem that they're trying to solve, that the criticisms are basically intended to set up.

impossible roadblocks to establish standards of due process that would make it impossible for the Trump administration to deport anyone. Now, personally, I think it really is true that a lot of critics of the administration's policy basically don't want to deport anyone or anyone except a few of the absolute worst cases.

impossible roadblocks to establish standards of due process that would make it impossible for the Trump administration to deport anyone. Now, personally, I think it really is true that a lot of critics of the administration's policy basically don't want to deport anyone or anyone except a few of the absolute worst cases.

But it's also true that Vance was not exactly being responsive to the question of whether the system itself is going to create abuses, including abuses that could fall upon American citizens, which seems like especially like a live issue, given that the president of the United States floated the idea of sending American criminals to an El Salvadoran prison as well.

But it's also true that Vance was not exactly being responsive to the question of whether the system itself is going to create abuses, including abuses that could fall upon American citizens, which seems like especially like a live issue, given that the president of the United States floated the idea of sending American criminals to an El Salvadoran prison as well.

So I asked him about this in that meeting. The other thing that the president of the United States said was that he hoped or aspired to a situation where he could potentially send American citizens to El Salvador's prison.

So I asked him about this in that meeting. The other thing that the president of the United States said was that he hoped or aspired to a situation where he could potentially send American citizens to El Salvador's prison.