Anna

And Daniel learned that because, unlike a lot of couples therapists, Terry takes sides, tries to get to the truth of what's going on, what's behind a couple's behavior.

And Daniel learned that because, unlike a lot of couples therapists, Terry takes sides, tries to get to the truth of what's going on, what's behind a couple's behavior.

Terry's been doing this for more than 40 years. He calls his approach relational life therapy, and he's written several best-selling books about it. And that whole time, he's kept a particular focus on men.

Terry's been doing this for more than 40 years. He calls his approach relational life therapy, and he's written several best-selling books about it. And that whole time, he's kept a particular focus on men.

Because for Terry, the things he sees men struggle with, from the most mild problems to the most extreme behaviors, it all stems from something fundamentally broken about the way our culture defines masculinity. So today, Terry Real tells me what he's learned about masculinity that drove him to break the rules of therapy.

Because for Terry, the things he sees men struggle with, from the most mild problems to the most extreme behaviors, it all stems from something fundamentally broken about the way our culture defines masculinity. So today, Terry Real tells me what he's learned about masculinity that drove him to break the rules of therapy.

He'll tell me how his own childhood showed him that our current models of masculinity don't work and what it will take to build new ones. And during our conversation, we talked a lot about what it means to be a man right now. Because to Terry, despite his 40 years with hundreds if not thousands of clients, he says his mission of reaching men has never felt more urgent. Stay with us.

He'll tell me how his own childhood showed him that our current models of masculinity don't work and what it will take to build new ones. And during our conversation, we talked a lot about what it means to be a man right now. Because to Terry, despite his 40 years with hundreds if not thousands of clients, he says his mission of reaching men has never felt more urgent. Stay with us.

Terry Real, welcome to Modern Love.

Terry Real, welcome to Modern Love.

Terry, you are, I think it's fair to say, an institution in your industry. You've been a marriage and family therapist for how long? For 40 years?

Terry, you are, I think it's fair to say, an institution in your industry. You've been a marriage and family therapist for how long? For 40 years?

Okay, let's not round down. Let's say you've been a marriage and family therapist for 42 years. How do couples end up in front of you? I have to be honest, I don't really feel like a guy would be calling you up and being like, hi, I need help with my marriage. So how do people end up in your office?

Okay, let's not round down. Let's say you've been a marriage and family therapist for 42 years. How do couples end up in front of you? I have to be honest, I don't really feel like a guy would be calling you up and being like, hi, I need help with my marriage. So how do people end up in your office?

And as I know from reading your work, shame-based people in a relationship are often women in a relationship, and then the grandiose-based people are often men. Is that right?

And as I know from reading your work, shame-based people in a relationship are often women in a relationship, and then the grandiose-based people are often men. Is that right?

The toxic individualism, yeah.

The toxic individualism, yeah.

I actually read that line in your book, and I was hoping you'd say it out loud because it's just too good. Outrun your rectum. Perfect. Put that on a shirt, unless you have.

I actually read that line in your book, and I was hoping you'd say it out loud because it's just too good. Outrun your rectum. Perfect. Put that on a shirt, unless you have.