Anne Applebaum

First of all, I wrote a piece that was published in 2020 about complicity and why people conform and do things they know are wrong. And that was based on a lot of reading and experience, but also one of the key moments in understanding that whole topic for me happened when I went to see a woman who was a former East German dissident. Then later on, she was head of the Stasi archive.

First of all, I wrote a piece that was published in 2020 about complicity and why people conform and do things they know are wrong. And that was based on a lot of reading and experience, but also one of the key moments in understanding that whole topic for me happened when I went to see a woman who was a former East German dissident. Then later on, she was head of the Stasi archive.

She's called Marion Berkler. I went to see her in East Germany and I thought I was going to see her to talk to her about conformity and complicity. You know, why do people go along with things they know are bad? You know, tell me about what percentage of people went along with it. I asked a question, something like that. And she looked at me like I was, she said, what do you mean? What percentage?

She's called Marion Berkler. I went to see her in East Germany and I thought I was going to see her to talk to her about conformity and complicity. You know, why do people go along with things they know are bad? You know, tell me about what percentage of people went along with it. I asked a question, something like that. And she looked at me like I was, she said, what do you mean? What percentage?

She's called Marion Berkler. I went to see her in East Germany and I thought I was going to see her to talk to her about conformity and complicity. You know, why do people go along with things they know are bad? You know, tell me about what percentage of people went along with it. I asked a question, something like that. And she looked at me like I was, she said, what do you mean? What percentage?

She says, everybody went along with it. She said sooner or later, you know, if you wanted to keep your job and you wanted your kids to go to university and you wanted your wife to get her health care, you had to go along with it. I mean, once the system is constructed in a way that there are no options, you know, 99 percent of people will conform.

She says, everybody went along with it. She said sooner or later, you know, if you wanted to keep your job and you wanted your kids to go to university and you wanted your wife to get her health care, you had to go along with it. I mean, once the system is constructed in a way that there are no options, you know, 99 percent of people will conform.

She says, everybody went along with it. She said sooner or later, you know, if you wanted to keep your job and you wanted your kids to go to university and you wanted your wife to get her health care, you had to go along with it. I mean, once the system is constructed in a way that there are no options, you know, 99 percent of people will conform.

And she said the real question to ask is, why is anybody a dissident? You know, because the dissidents, you know, in that system anyway, they paid a pretty big price, right? You lost your job and maybe they didn't kill you by the by the 1970s, you know, but they lost your job. You were sort of an outcast, you know, so not everybody can afford to make that effort.

And she said the real question to ask is, why is anybody a dissident? You know, because the dissidents, you know, in that system anyway, they paid a pretty big price, right? You lost your job and maybe they didn't kill you by the by the 1970s, you know, but they lost your job. You were sort of an outcast, you know, so not everybody can afford to make that effort.

And she said the real question to ask is, why is anybody a dissident? You know, because the dissidents, you know, in that system anyway, they paid a pretty big price, right? You lost your job and maybe they didn't kill you by the by the 1970s, you know, but they lost your job. You were sort of an outcast, you know, so not everybody can afford to make that effort.

And, you know, here we're talking about the U.S. Right now, we're not talking about Americans as a whole. We're talking about U.S. government officials. So, again, we're talking about a narrow group and the stakes aren't quite that extreme, you know, but people are going to be faced very soon with the choice of either you stay in your job and you conform to the new rules or you're fired.

And, you know, here we're talking about the U.S. Right now, we're not talking about Americans as a whole. We're talking about U.S. government officials. So, again, we're talking about a narrow group and the stakes aren't quite that extreme, you know, but people are going to be faced very soon with the choice of either you stay in your job and you conform to the new rules or you're fired.

And, you know, here we're talking about the U.S. Right now, we're not talking about Americans as a whole. We're talking about U.S. government officials. So, again, we're talking about a narrow group and the stakes aren't quite that extreme, you know, but people are going to be faced very soon with the choice of either you stay in your job and you conform to the new rules or you're fired.

And it may differ from institution to institution. I mean, I haven't explored this yet, but I saw some reporting yesterday about people at the FBI saying they're going to continue to stay in their jobs and insist on the law. Yeah, it's interesting.

And it may differ from institution to institution. I mean, I haven't explored this yet, but I saw some reporting yesterday about people at the FBI saying they're going to continue to stay in their jobs and insist on the law. Yeah, it's interesting.

And it may differ from institution to institution. I mean, I haven't explored this yet, but I saw some reporting yesterday about people at the FBI saying they're going to continue to stay in their jobs and insist on the law. Yeah, it's interesting.

I don't know either. I mean, I don't have a sense of what the rules are there. But, you know, I think JVL is right to advise people to stay in their jobs. But we all need to take into consideration the possibility that they won't be able to stay in their jobs.

I don't know either. I mean, I don't have a sense of what the rules are there. But, you know, I think JVL is right to advise people to stay in their jobs. But we all need to take into consideration the possibility that they won't be able to stay in their jobs.

I don't know either. I mean, I don't have a sense of what the rules are there. But, you know, I think JVL is right to advise people to stay in their jobs. But we all need to take into consideration the possibility that they won't be able to stay in their jobs.