Anne Applebaum

And I asked the investigator, how is it that you have the legitimacy to do this?

How do you have the support to do it?

And he said, look, it comes from Ukrainians.

You know, there was a moment last summer when some people in the presidential administration tried to shut down this investigation and there were popular protests.

You know, Ukrainians understand that this is an important part of their democracy.

They want corruption ended.

They think it's important not just

not just for moral reasons, but because corruption weakens them and makes them more susceptible to Russian bribery and blackmail and so on.

So this is a state body that's acting with the support of Ukrainians.

And I don't know that we have the equivalent movement here.

Could you imagine big national protests if...

Well, I mean, you can't imagine it because it's already happened.

I mean, if the president were to replace the heads of the FBI and the Department of Justice with flunkies who would never investigate him, what would happen?

I mean, we know what would happen.

Nothing would happen because that's what took place early this year.

And I just think Americans have lost the ability to be shocked or the ability to absorb the ways in which this is different.

And so, as I say, all I can think of to do right now is to explain it to people as much as possible.

There are a couple central pieces of it.

I mean, I think the most controversial piece is that the U.S.

is promising to recognize all or most of them.