Annie Karni

And what does that even mean, really?

And what does that even mean, really?

We'll be right back.

We'll be right back.

Good morning, Senator Gillibrand. How are you?

Good morning, Senator Gillibrand. How are you?

Good.

Good.

I reached Senator Kirsten Gillibrand inside her office on Capitol Hill last week. Sorry. And thank you for putting on headphones. I know it is not the most glamorous way to start your day, but... I don't mind. I wonder if you can, just to start, remember when you first learned that equal rights for women were not mentioned in the Constitution.

I reached Senator Kirsten Gillibrand inside her office on Capitol Hill last week. Sorry. And thank you for putting on headphones. I know it is not the most glamorous way to start your day, but... I don't mind. I wonder if you can, just to start, remember when you first learned that equal rights for women were not mentioned in the Constitution.

Got it. And we're going to get to all the ways in which you have brought and tried to bring that request to the Biden White House. But I think listeners will appreciate you explaining in a kind of bigger step back way why you and why so many other Democrats

Got it. And we're going to get to all the ways in which you have brought and tried to bring that request to the Biden White House. But I think listeners will appreciate you explaining in a kind of bigger step back way why you and why so many other Democrats

Want the ERA now, putting aside the legal arguments for just a moment, what in your mind does the Equal Rights Amendment achieve at this point that the country's current laws and jurisprudence, especially around the 14th Amendment's Equal Rights Clause, does not provide? What gaps does it fill if it becomes the 28th Amendment of the Constitution?

Want the ERA now, putting aside the legal arguments for just a moment, what in your mind does the Equal Rights Amendment achieve at this point that the country's current laws and jurisprudence, especially around the 14th Amendment's Equal Rights Clause, does not provide? What gaps does it fill if it becomes the 28th Amendment of the Constitution?

So for you, the Equal Rights Amendment, perhaps not exclusively but foremostly, is about creating in the Constitution a federal protection for abortion rights, which you think has already happened in states whose constitutions have something similar to the Equal Rights Amendment in it.

So for you, the Equal Rights Amendment, perhaps not exclusively but foremostly, is about creating in the Constitution a federal protection for abortion rights, which you think has already happened in states whose constitutions have something similar to the Equal Rights Amendment in it.

That's a pretty big and important claim, and I wonder if it's at all disputed. You'd know better than I would that explicitly prohibiting gender-based discrimination in the Constitution, which is what the Equal Rights Amendment would do, would, in your words, vitiate, obviate, tear asunder the Dobbs decision entirely?

That's a pretty big and important claim, and I wonder if it's at all disputed. You'd know better than I would that explicitly prohibiting gender-based discrimination in the Constitution, which is what the Equal Rights Amendment would do, would, in your words, vitiate, obviate, tear asunder the Dobbs decision entirely?

Okay, once, Senator Gillibrand, you decide for all these reasons, both kind of legal and practical, that this is important to you, that you make this case to President Biden, what do you do? What have you done so far to try to make this case to the president, to his aides? I wonder if you can kind of walk us through all of that.

Okay, once, Senator Gillibrand, you decide for all these reasons, both kind of legal and practical, that this is important to you, that you make this case to President Biden, what do you do? What have you done so far to try to make this case to the president, to his aides? I wonder if you can kind of walk us through all of that.