Chris Mason

The twist, of course, is that in the next three weeks, there is that by-election in Makerfield.

And what happens after that is...

Well, things could change quite a lot in the next three weeks.

Also, when the dip, as I'm now calling it, does land, the defence investment plan, John Healey's allies have given us a very good yardstick to sort of judge it by, basically saying, if we get to a point where defence spending as a share of GDP, so the national economy overall, by 2030 is 2.68% as a result of this defence investment plan, John Healey's allies have made it very clear that's not good enough.

So as soon as it hits...

hits our inboxes, we'll be working out if that's what it is or if it's more than 2.68%.

Yeah, and again, as I think we said on an earlier edition of Newscast, we are still in quite an asymmetric conversation around all of this because there is a spectacular amount of chit-chat, including from you and I, about something we've not seen yet, the Defence Investment Plan.

We've seen the commentary and interpretation of two principal figures in its compilation, the former Defence Secretary and the current...

but we haven't actually seen it yet.

Now, let's get on to part two of your interview, which was a bit more broader than defence and was a lot about just Keir Starmer's own position as prime minister.

And the next bit I want to play is just so interesting because in your mind, you think this message Keir Starmer's got is aimed, as you would expect, at opposition politicians, the other parties that want to be in the government.

But now because of the weird situation Keir Starmer is in in the Labour Party, actually it's addressed at people who want his job internally.

So let's have a listen.

A, he is sort of almost challenging West Streeting and Andy Burnham there.

And B, he actually sounds...

actually quite almost jocular about it.

Like, he sounds confident.

Yeah, he does.

He really does.

Perhaps the most confident in the interview on that particular topic, or that theme, if you like, effectively saying...