Coleman Church

I don't know that.

Funnily enough, I don't know that even the experts can actually define it.

And I'm I'm not.

I'm not joking when I say that.

When I, at my last job, we would do a conference every summer in Europe for investors and we'd have a series of round table topics.

And the one topic that was standing room only sold out every summer in Europe was the ESG, without question.

It seems the US has definitely faded quickly from that, but Europe still seems very hooked in.

It's not faded there at all.

It's definitely a part of the investment process.

But what's fascinating is,

if you go to 20 clients in london and you talk about esg you will get a different answer from each esg specialist as to and especially in emerging markets it's a very difficult thing to to work your way around the esg constraints

when most of what emerging markets are based on are hard commodities uh and there's also obviously the governance component the g component it's not always maybe up to western standards with the g so they're with the g they're a little light on the g

The G, the E is not great.

The S, no one really knows what that means.

And the G is highly questionable.

So it's funny.

It's just, it's there.

It's still, I guess what I call a work in progress.

Well, it's straight government intervention is what it is.

It's government.