Dan Harris

So you're not manipulating them.

You're not getting them onto your team and onto your wavelength as a way to get them to do what you want.

You're just getting into the dance of human interaction.

And who knows what's going to happen, but most likely it will lead to more thriving.

I love that.

Can you say a little bit more about how you stay in sync in the face of like the chaos of your own mind and all the random thoughts that come up or the

the urge to leave the room or check your phone or whatever, like how do you come back to the interaction you're in given the hurly-burly of your own mind?

That makes a lot of sense.

Let me go back to something you said right before that, which is like, these aren't the exact words you use, but I believe it's an argument in your book that you really can't learn how to read other people and connect with other people if you're disconnected from yourself.

And I think the word for this, and it's come up a lot in the 10 years I've been hosting the show, is interception, like the ability to get a sense of your own

body states.

So in your view, how do we develop that skill of interoception?

Much more with Kate Murphy coming up.

Throughout this conversation, we've been operating on the thesis that picking up other people's signals is basically a good thing.

But of course, it can be a bad thing when you're around somebody who is imposing their bad vibes on you.

So I want to talk about how we can avoid what I think you call emotional fusion.

But maybe just start by talking about the downsides of interpersonal synchrony.

So it's not so much that you stop listening to them.

It's kind of like you're still there, but you're not, you're kind of dialing down your own level of synchrony in that moment in some way.

You have this concept, I believe, like mentally returning borrowed emotions.