Dan Harris

The meditation is a pain in the ass.

And a lot of I mean, I do it regularly.

A lot of people do do it regularly, but it's hard to start a habit.

It's hard to find the time.

And even when you do start a habit, you can fall off the wagon.

And so it so the fluoride analogy lands for me there.

Perhaps you could say a little bit more about what exactly is the difference between what you're proposing, the fluoride version, the widely accessible version.

What's the difference between what you're proposing and what I think a lot of people listening to this show will recognize as meditation?

Norm, he just used, Zindel did, a term that, he just introduced it into the conversation for the first time, sense foraging.

What does that mean?

Well, let's get a little bit more concrete.

Can one of you just walk us through?

I know the book is loaded, larded with these sense foraging exercises.

Can you just give us a taste of what a sense foraging exercise would be like?

Coming up, Zindel Siegel and Norman Farb talk about how shutting down our senses, being stuck in the DMN, can make us more vulnerable to depression, and what radical acceptance has to do with all of this.

So let me just see if I can sum up where we are at this point in the interview.

Zindel, I'll throw this at you.

You acknowledge you're not saying something that these exercises, these sense forging exercises, and we'll explore a few more of them as this interview continues.

It's not something new in the universe per se, but you're trying to make a very...

urgent point that if we can get in the habit of dropping out of the spinning stories in our head, the spinning stories, the habitual thought patterns of the default mode network, if we can create a habit of it doesn't involve a cushion, it doesn't involve candles, it doesn't involve an altar.