Dan Savage

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Helix mattresses all come with a 10 or 15-year warranty, depending on the model. Right now, Helix is offering 25% off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners. We've emailed Helix to let them know that two pillows, a little mononormative. Sometimes there's three people in a relationship. They're going to get back to us on that. We'll let you know what they say.

Helix mattresses all come with a 10 or 15-year warranty, depending on the model. Right now, Helix is offering 25% off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners. We've emailed Helix to let them know that two pillows, a little mononormative. Sometimes there's three people in a relationship. They're going to get back to us on that. We'll let you know what they say.

Go to helixsleep.com slash savage right now for 25% off your mattress and those two free but problematic pillows. Two. It's their best offer yet, won't last long. With Helix, better sleep starts now. We're going to take a quick break from your calls to speak with someone that if you're a regular listener of the Savage Lovecast, you are familiar with.

Go to helixsleep.com slash savage right now for 25% off your mattress and those two free but problematic pillows. Two. It's their best offer yet, won't last long. With Helix, better sleep starts now. We're going to take a quick break from your calls to speak with someone that if you're a regular listener of the Savage Lovecast, you are familiar with.

Someone who, if you are a regular listener of the Savage Lovecast, you probably already got her books on my recommendation and you've heard me quote her a million times. New York Times bestselling author and psychotherapist, Esther Perel, recognized her. Here on this episode of Lovecast and everywhere else is one of the most insightful and original voices on modern relationships.

Someone who, if you are a regular listener of the Savage Lovecast, you probably already got her books on my recommendation and you've heard me quote her a million times. New York Times bestselling author and psychotherapist, Esther Perel, recognized her. Here on this episode of Lovecast and everywhere else is one of the most insightful and original voices on modern relationships.

In addition to writing her bestselling books, Esther hosts the hit podcast, Where Should We Begin? And is about to wrap up her sold out national tour evening with Esther Perel. Esther, how are you?

In addition to writing her bestselling books, Esther hosts the hit podcast, Where Should We Begin? And is about to wrap up her sold out national tour evening with Esther Perel. Esther, how are you?

Tied to what you're here today to talk about, which is your new online course, which launches in September. And we're going to talk about that in a second. But really quickly, maybe I have a brand new listener today who hasn't heard me talk about You, about your books, Mating in Captivity, The State of Affairs.

Tied to what you're here today to talk about, which is your new online course, which launches in September. And we're going to talk about that in a second. But really quickly, maybe I have a brand new listener today who hasn't heard me talk about You, about your books, Mating in Captivity, The State of Affairs.

There's something that you said once that just struck me, and it's one of the things I repeat all the time to listeners and callers. I just wanted to unpack it with you really quickly, if we could, before we talk about The Art of Desire. And that is, the victim of the affair is not always the victim of the marriage.

There's something that you said once that just struck me, and it's one of the things I repeat all the time to listeners and callers. I just wanted to unpack it with you really quickly, if we could, before we talk about The Art of Desire. And that is, the victim of the affair is not always the victim of the marriage.

I don't think there's anything that you've said that landed with quite the boom that that did. Because the way we have been socialized to understand somebody touching somebody else with their genitals is that guy or that woman is the bad guy. And if everything we need to know about the problem in this marriage... That tells us everything that we need to know.

I don't think there's anything that you've said that landed with quite the boom that that did. Because the way we have been socialized to understand somebody touching somebody else with their genitals is that guy or that woman is the bad guy. And if everything we need to know about the problem in this marriage... That tells us everything that we need to know.

And that simple statement of yours, recognizing your years of experience, couples counseling, working with couples in crisis about infidelity, that the victim of the affair is not always the victim of the marriage. How did you come to that? And when you first said it, I think during your TED talk, did you feel like you were going to blow people's minds?

And that simple statement of yours, recognizing your years of experience, couples counseling, working with couples in crisis about infidelity, that the victim of the affair is not always the victim of the marriage. How did you come to that? And when you first said it, I think during your TED talk, did you feel like you were going to blow people's minds?

One of the things I love about your work is how nuanced and complex you can allow relationships to be. And when there is an affair, there is this impulse to look to, if people are willing to look past the affair and look at the relationship, to pathologize the relationship. If everything was going great, if these people loved each other, if this was a healthy, functional relationship...

One of the things I love about your work is how nuanced and complex you can allow relationships to be. And when there is an affair, there is this impulse to look to, if people are willing to look past the affair and look at the relationship, to pathologize the relationship. If everything was going great, if these people loved each other, if this was a healthy, functional relationship...

An affair would not happen. You wrote a terrific piece, cover piece for the Atlantic Magazine, why happy people cheat, I think was the headline. And one of the things you addressed was the existence of people who are happily married, love their partners. They're not the victims of contempt or neglect or betrayal in other forms besides sexual ones. And yet they had affairs.