Darby Saxbe

And so it feels more integrated.

I would see men outside our apartment window pushing strollers around and hanging out with each other.

And there was more of a sense, I think, of connectedness and a kind of society of fathers that you just don't see as much in the States when you're kind of more isolated in your home.

So my husband's sister lives in Sweden and raised her kids there.

And you've got really generous year-plus long maternity leaves.

And you also have really affordable early child care that's high quality.

So the stress level there for parents, I think, looks really different.

And for fathers in particular, because you have these kind of paternity leave incentive programs that are designed to normalize and destigmatize dads taking leave.

So basically the couple gets a certain amount of leave.

Some of it is earmarked for dad.

If he doesn't take it, it goes away.

They lose that benefit.

So a lot of men take it because that's a free benefit.

Totally.

So you have, it's called the Latte Papas, which is like this society of guys who are like holding the little to-go cups and just walking around the cities.

Exactly.

So again, it's just like a very normalized thing that men are going to be very hands-on because it's baked into their policy.

And there are studies on this that men are really reluctant and they think they're going to get punished at work.

And I think we still have this ideal worker idea that you sacrifice everything for your job.

And if you take time off after a baby's born, you're a slacker.