Darren Shand

Or actually, no, sorry, Steve, we have to, I'm going to have to get some other people on my side to convince you that we need to do this for the right reasons.

So no, he did have a, he's a real soul to Steve.

Yeah.

20 years of every test match, him in my ear.

The world's greatest mumbler.

Because you were mic'd up, weren't you?

I was mic'd up, yeah.

You were one of the ones.

I'm listening to Steve play the game upstairs and trying to be a filter.

And I became a very good liar, you know, head to head.

What are they saying out there?

It's all good, Steve.

Sorry.

Connection, no, not good at altitude in Johannesburg.

Sorry.

You might have to repeat that one.

I think historically, and that's probably where I started with the Crusaders and Canterbury Rugby.

So what happened after the 2003 World Cup, Mitchell and Deans, the board of New Zealand Rugby decided to change the way things were done because they were concerned that

The game was bigger than just the game now.

We're quite a way into the professional era.