Darren Shand

White hot boys, you know, just magnificent.

Steve Hansen, did he have a... Yeah, Steve was very...

How would I describe Steve?

Yeah, very in the moment.

Steve's a very emotional person, yeah, and very intuitive.

And so I think on the back of what Graham had done, he sort of felt the room and just, I guess, in terms of talking the 2015 experience, he just talked on a different level, much more emotional.

I find that surprising.

Yeah.

No, he's a very intuitive, very caring man.

Even though he's a very tough man.

And I don't mean that in the wrong sense.

But I think what we managed to build inside the group was an environment where you could contest everything.

And Steve particularly loved the challenge of that.

His nickname was Last Word.

There were so many times I would leave a meeting feeling like bashed to pieces, you know, not taking it personally because I knew we were there for the right reason.

He'd come up to the door and he'd put his arm around me, you know, I love you, son.

Oh, yeah, okay.

Careful of that bruise there.

That was a good thing about him, that you knew, and Steve too was similar, both quite alpha, but the care, you could not get past the care, and I always knew there was an arm around me, despite the challenge, because that's probably the biggest lesson Steve taught me, was to think deeper about everything and impact, and yes, sometimes he would go to the nth degree around what you're trying to, particularly when it's non-rugby related, what you're trying to get across the line is really going to impact performance, so I had to become a really good

is this battle worth fighting or do I back off here?