David E. Sanger

That's right, but they did something even more strategic. They realized that our systems were old and rickety, and they looked for the seams between that old equipment and the new equipment because they knew the older equipment was going to be their way inside.

We've been spying on each other for decades. And it's always been an article of faith that we can hack into systems better than any other country can. That's always been the assumption. And it was backed up 10 years ago when Edward Snowden, who you'll remember was a contractor for the National Security Agency,

We've been spying on each other for decades. And it's always been an article of faith that we can hack into systems better than any other country can. That's always been the assumption. And it was backed up 10 years ago when Edward Snowden, who you'll remember was a contractor for the National Security Agency,

revealed a huge trove of documents that exposed that the NSA was getting inside the Chinese telecommunications systems and particularly aiming at Huawei, the Chinese telecommunications giant that's been supported by the government. And for years, the U.S. government has been banning Huawei equipment from the U.S. for fear that if Huawei was inside our networks...

revealed a huge trove of documents that exposed that the NSA was getting inside the Chinese telecommunications systems and particularly aiming at Huawei, the Chinese telecommunications giant that's been supported by the government. And for years, the U.S. government has been banning Huawei equipment from the U.S. for fear that if Huawei was inside our networks...

They would have an easy way of diverting phone calls, texts, all kinds of computer data back to Beijing. So what did we learn here? We've learned here that even without Huawei in our system, because most of Huawei's equipment has been banned, the Chinese found a way in anyway. And we've learned that at this point, they are essentially as good as the NSA.

They would have an easy way of diverting phone calls, texts, all kinds of computer data back to Beijing. So what did we learn here? We've learned here that even without Huawei in our system, because most of Huawei's equipment has been banned, the Chinese found a way in anyway. And we've learned that at this point, they are essentially as good as the NSA.

No one will say this in public to you, but you get people off the record and they say to me, David, this is the first time I've come to the conclusion the Chinese are completely in the major leagues here, and they can do what we can do.

No one will say this in public to you, but you get people off the record and they say to me, David, this is the first time I've come to the conclusion the Chinese are completely in the major leagues here, and they can do what we can do.

Well, China's invested in it, practiced in it, trained people in it. And, you know, it's like anything else in superpower competition. 20, 25 years ago, the Chinese were almost nowhere in space, right? Now they've got space satellites that can grab our space satellites. And the same is true in cyber.

Well, China's invested in it, practiced in it, trained people in it. And, you know, it's like anything else in superpower competition. 20, 25 years ago, the Chinese were almost nowhere in space, right? Now they've got space satellites that can grab our space satellites. And the same is true in cyber.

It's just another area where they know they need to be able to dominate the superpower competition in surveillance. And the big improvements in their capability started after Xi Jinping came to power in 2012. The current Chinese leader. The current Chinese leader.

It's just another area where they know they need to be able to dominate the superpower competition in surveillance. And the big improvements in their capability started after Xi Jinping came to power in 2012. The current Chinese leader. The current Chinese leader.

And, you know, at the time when Xi came in, the American intelligence reports were, this is not a man who is going to challenge the United States militarily or for intelligence purposes. He's got to focus on building up his own army. economic capabilities. Well, it turns out all those reports were wrong.

And, you know, at the time when Xi came in, the American intelligence reports were, this is not a man who is going to challenge the United States militarily or for intelligence purposes. He's got to focus on building up his own army. economic capabilities. Well, it turns out all those reports were wrong.

And it was another of the mistakes we made in sort of assessing where the new cold wars were emerging. So he's the one who decided to make the investments in space. And he's the one who has invested millions, if not billions of dollars in cyber capabilities and

And it was another of the mistakes we made in sort of assessing where the new cold wars were emerging. So he's the one who decided to make the investments in space. And he's the one who has invested millions, if not billions of dollars in cyber capabilities and

They were pretty clunky. They put most of their cyber capability into the hands of the People's Liberation Army. It's China's main military operation. You know, 10 years ago, I was writing about People's Liberation Army Unit, Unit 61398, that was based out of a big white office tower near the Shanghai airport.

They were pretty clunky. They put most of their cyber capability into the hands of the People's Liberation Army. It's China's main military operation. You know, 10 years ago, I was writing about People's Liberation Army Unit, Unit 61398, that was based out of a big white office tower near the Shanghai airport.

And they had officers who would go break into American companies and try to steal their secrets and their designs and bring them back to Chinese state-owned or other companies. And were they successful at doing that? Partly. They stole the design for the F-35, the U.S. stealth fighter, and then produced one that looks very much like it, but they make it a lot more cheaply than we do.