David E. Sanger

But in case they're not interested in that, they're probably not going in to listen to ordinary Americans talk about how much milk and eggs to go pick up on the way home from work. But the fact that they have the capability to go do this throughout the system is pretty shocking. Now, there's an exception to this. When you're talking on an ordinary phone line,

The phone conversation is largely unencrypted. But if you're talking over WhatsApp or Signal, or even if you are talking from iPhone to an iPhone or messaging between iPhones, then those are usually encrypted. And the Chinese would be able to see that there was a conversation underway, but they couldn't listen in or look at or read the content.

The phone conversation is largely unencrypted. But if you're talking over WhatsApp or Signal, or even if you are talking from iPhone to an iPhone or messaging between iPhones, then those are usually encrypted. And the Chinese would be able to see that there was a conversation underway, but they couldn't listen in or look at or read the content.

That's right. And, you know, there are some encrypted conversations that with a lot of work you can pierce, but by and large, you're a lot safer on an encrypted line. And last week... The U.S. government, for the first time that I can ever recall, came out and told Americans, you should use encrypted apps to communicate until we have this problem solved. Huh.

That's right. And, you know, there are some encrypted conversations that with a lot of work you can pierce, but by and large, you're a lot safer on an encrypted line. And last week... The U.S. government, for the first time that I can ever recall, came out and told Americans, you should use encrypted apps to communicate until we have this problem solved. Huh.

And that's a big change because it was only back in the Obama administration that the FBI was complaining about encrypted apps. Right. They couldn't listen in if there was a criminal case underway or a kidnapping.

And that's a big change because it was only back in the Obama administration that the FBI was complaining about encrypted apps. Right. They couldn't listen in if there was a criminal case underway or a kidnapping.

That's right. And basically, they've decided now, because of the severity of this act, to reverse their advice and tell Americans, go use encryption.

That's right. And basically, they've decided now, because of the severity of this act, to reverse their advice and tell Americans, go use encryption.

The best I can discern from telecom executives and other experts is they took advantage of the fact that our phone systems are actually the amalgam of really new, sleek digital equipment and really old, creaky equipment that's been sitting around for 40 years. Okay, so how does that make it vulnerable?

The best I can discern from telecom executives and other experts is they took advantage of the fact that our phone systems are actually the amalgam of really new, sleek digital equipment and really old, creaky equipment that's been sitting around for 40 years. Okay, so how does that make it vulnerable?

Because these old systems have been embedded in the telecom system for the longest time, from an age that goes back before hacking. And so there's almost no way to build modern protections into them because these systems were built so long ago, it was before anybody had protections in mind. So let me give you an example. Yeah, please.

Because these old systems have been embedded in the telecom system for the longest time, from an age that goes back before hacking. And so there's almost no way to build modern protections into them because these systems were built so long ago, it was before anybody had protections in mind. So let me give you an example. Yeah, please.

If you're going to do a banking transaction over your phone, you frequently get a code that comes back from the bank that you have to insert first so that they're sure that they're talking to you on your phone. And you insert it, and we've gotten used to it. It drives us crazy, but we all understand why we need to do it. In the cyber world, that's called multi-factor authentication.

If you're going to do a banking transaction over your phone, you frequently get a code that comes back from the bank that you have to insert first so that they're sure that they're talking to you on your phone. And you insert it, and we've gotten used to it. It drives us crazy, but we all understand why we need to do it. In the cyber world, that's called multi-factor authentication.

So it's something other than just your password to make sure that it's really you. But inside these telecom systems, there was no multi-factor authentication. So once they got the master password, they were in the system. They were able to roam freely across the system without ever being challenged again for credentials or identification. Imagine this.

So it's something other than just your password to make sure that it's really you. But inside these telecom systems, there was no multi-factor authentication. So once they got the master password, they were in the system. They were able to roam freely across the system without ever being challenged again for credentials or identification. Imagine this.

Imagine that you showed your ID once at the airport. Right. But before you got on an international flight, no one asked to see your passport one more time. That's sort of what happened here.

Imagine that you showed your ID once at the airport. Right. But before you got on an international flight, no one asked to see your passport one more time. That's sort of what happened here.

That's right, but they did something even more strategic. They realized that our systems were old and rickety, and they looked for the seams between that old equipment and the new equipment because they knew the older equipment was going to be their way inside.