David E. Sanger

The telecoms missed it entirely, but Microsoft noticed that Chinese hacking groups that they follow were targeting these companies, AT&T and Verizon and many others. And suddenly they realized that the Chinese were inside an American system, and they were the first ones to send up the alert.

Not only were the Chinese hackers there, they had figured out a way to go target some very specific national security officials and politicians, including President-elect Trump and Vice President-elect Vance. Then they discovered that the Chinese could actually listen to some conversations.

Not only were the Chinese hackers there, they had figured out a way to go target some very specific national security officials and politicians, including President-elect Trump and Vice President-elect Vance. Then they discovered that the Chinese could actually listen to some conversations.

We don't know for sure what they listened to or whether they actually tuned into some of those conversations. But American investigators seem to have a pretty high certainty that they did. And then we also learned that these hackers could read open, unencrypted texts. That would be, for example, if you were sending a text from an iPhone to an Android.

We don't know for sure what they listened to or whether they actually tuned into some of those conversations. But American investigators seem to have a pretty high certainty that they did. And then we also learned that these hackers could read open, unencrypted texts. That would be, for example, if you were sending a text from an iPhone to an Android.

So it's not staying within the Apple network and it's going out as an SMS message. The Chinese could read those.

So it's not staying within the Apple network and it's going out as an SMS message. The Chinese could read those.

It really is. And it tells you how effective they are. And initially, the American investigators thought that the Chinese were just really focusing on Washington and Washington players. But the more they dug in, the more they discovered, no, they were in the entire system around the country. And then it got worse because it turns out that the telecom companies run for the U.S.

It really is. And it tells you how effective they are. And initially, the American investigators thought that the Chinese were just really focusing on Washington and Washington players. But the more they dug in, the more they discovered, no, they were in the entire system around the country. And then it got worse because it turns out that the telecom companies run for the U.S.

government the lawful taps that are put on the phones of suspected criminals or spies.

government the lawful taps that are put on the phones of suspected criminals or spies.

That's right. And of course, the government can go get the warrant, but the government doesn't run the phone system. So then they have to take that warrant to AT&T or Verizon or another company and say, we need to tap this phone number. Well, the Chinese got in so deeply that they could figure out which phone numbers they were listening to.

That's right. And of course, the government can go get the warrant, but the government doesn't run the phone system. So then they have to take that warrant to AT&T or Verizon or another company and say, we need to tap this phone number. Well, the Chinese got in so deeply that they could figure out which phone numbers they were listening to.

And then they could figure out, wow, they're on to this suspected Chinese spy and they're on to this one, but they don't know about this third one.

And then they could figure out, wow, they're on to this suspected Chinese spy and they're on to this one, but they don't know about this third one.

That's right. So just think about this. If the Chinese know... which Chinese spies we're on to and which ones we aren't, it gives them a huge advantage. They begin to know if they need to send more spies in. So there's a huge counterintelligence factor to the salt typhoon hack as well.

That's right. So just think about this. If the Chinese know... which Chinese spies we're on to and which ones we aren't, it gives them a huge advantage. They begin to know if they need to send more spies in. So there's a huge counterintelligence factor to the salt typhoon hack as well.

It's a great question because the Chinese have shown from this that they could get into most of these ordinary phone calls. The question is, would they want to, right? They seem to be quite focused on national security officials, politicians. Now, I can imagine, Sabrina, that for you, they may want to go in and figure out what's going to be on the daily and in a couple of days.

It's a great question because the Chinese have shown from this that they could get into most of these ordinary phone calls. The question is, would they want to, right? They seem to be quite focused on national security officials, politicians. Now, I can imagine, Sabrina, that for you, they may want to go in and figure out what's going to be on the daily and in a couple of days.

But in case they're not interested in that, they're probably not going in to listen to ordinary Americans talk about how much milk and eggs to go pick up on the way home from work. But the fact that they have the capability to go do this throughout the system is pretty shocking. Now, there's an exception to this. When you're talking on an ordinary phone line,