David Frum

But you started with a human response that this human being was violent and disgusting.

You were one of the contributors to the 2016 Never Trump special issue of National Review.

I recently went back and looked at that.

There are about two dozen contributors.

Some stayed true to their original position.

Some flipped.

Some have just become kind of shifty.

But was that a moment where you still regarded yourself as a member in good standing of the conservative community?

Well, and I should stress that issue was published, I believe, in January of 2016.

So before any Republican primaries.

And conservatives had the memory that in 2012, there had been a lot of wacky novelty candidates who rose in the polls.

That's right.

And, you know, date Michelle Bachman, marry Mitt Romney.

And I think a lot of people in January 2016 thought, you know, that's going to be the pattern here again.

Date Donald Trump, marry Marco Rubio.

All right.

So where were you on election night, 2016?

You remember?

Rio de Janeiro.

So when...