David Frum

When do you internalize that there may be a bigger set of issues here than just the human reaction to Donald Trump?

He's speaking to somebody, and he's speaking to a lot of people, and he's speaking to a lot of people that you knew and trusted, and not just the famous base, but to peers and friends of yours.

How does that dawn begin to rise?

So Jonah Goldberg, whom you know well and I know I think less well, but I know, he would say, and I'm not going to gainsay this, although I think these statements can't ever be fully true, but he would say, I haven't changed my mind.

I've stayed here and the world has moved, but I've been constant.

I certainly wouldn't make that claim for myself.

In fact, I've changed my mind about a lot of things, some of them in reaction to Donald Trump, some of them in reaction to other things.

Where would you situate yourself in that spectrum of saying, I've stayed put, the world has moved, and my statement, the world moved and I moved with it and against it, but I moved too?

Well, I'm going to give you then in a moment an inventory of things you've changed your mind about and things you have not.

And we can do it either.

You decide which of those inventories you'd like to catalog first.

Where are the things that you feel like, I'm still the same as ever, I still believe these things?

Yes.

That is the issue where there was the most continuity between Trump 1 and Biden.

That's right.

And I had the recent experience of talking to a group of important Democrats and saying, I just want you all to repeat after me the words free trade.

And they can't do it.

They can't do it.

Free and fair trade.

No, no.