Dr. Jack Goldstone

And so the initial outcome for the first year after the Maidan Revolution was a sort of democratic regime, but with very wealthy, corrupt oligarchs as the leaders.

Now, that didn't last.

Volodymyr Zelensky, who was popular, he was trained as a lawyer, but became a television comedian,

He offered himself as an anti-corruption leader.

clean democracy candidate, and he won.

Now, unfortunately, the last thing that Vladimir Putin wanted to see in neighboring Ukraine was a popular, anti-corruption, clean democratic leader, because that was a reproach to everything that Putin stands for, right?

So shortly thereafter, he invaded.

He grabbed Crimea and encouraged a rebellion in the east.

And that was his initial response to the revolution.

But after Zelensky was elected, I think Putin said, this is intolerable.

I've got to change that government.

I cannot have a popular comedian who's doing away with corruption as the mirror that I have to see every day when I look across the border.

I think that's why in 2022, Putin said, I'm just going to send my army to Kiev.

I don't care what anybody says.

I'm going to get rid of this guy.

But he turned out to be tougher than expected.

He didn't run away.

He marshaled the people of Ukraine, and now they're locked in a life and death struggle.

So if you said, in 2014...

when popular crowds chased the leader out of Kyiv and proclaimed a revolution of dignity, did they think they were gonna end up in a decade long war that would be disastrous and brutal?