Duncan Jarvis

I mean, it's not actually that different.

a really interesting paper that I thought when I read it, Helen, was right down your alley, given your interest in conflicts of interest.

That is a paper about conflicts of interest and... Tanning.

Conflicts of interest in the tanning industry.

Who's surprised by that?

And I think the really important bit there is this is talking about what happens in the public realm, not just within, you know, between researchers.

So it's muddying the political process.

It's muddying whether you are, you know, whether you should smoke or not.

And they just want to eke out a little bit of extra time.

Yeah, it's amazing.

So that's yogi.

Yeah, so they've taken this paper looking at tanning and this is the first time someone's done that.

But yeah, that methodology has been developed over time from, you know, the tobacco industry, climate change research, things like that.

Anything where they're really expecting industry to come in and try and nitpick, you know, just to, as you say, make it as bulletproof as possible.

So I thought when I did that interview after them, when you two did your harms podcast, one of the guests there was talking about that stage management.

Ghost management.

Yeah.

Stage management.

Ghost management.

Scientific process, essentially.