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Dwarkesh Patel

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Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

An LLM that's being RL'd on outcome-based rewards learns on the order of one bit per episode, and an episode might be tens of thousands of tokens long.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

Now, obviously, animals and humans are clearly extracting more information from interacting with our environment than just the reward signal at the end of an episode.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

Conceptually, how should we think about what is happening with animals?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

I think we're learning to model the world through observations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

This outer loop RL is incentivizing some other learning system to pick up maximum signal from the environment.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

In Richard's oak architecture, he calls this the transition model.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

And if we were trying to pigeonhole this feature spec into modern LLMs, what you do is fine tune on all your observed tokens.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

From what I hear from my researcher friends, in practice, the most naive way of doing this actually doesn't work very well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

Now, being able to learn from the environment in a high throughput way is obviously necessary for true AGI.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

And it clearly doesn't exist with LLMs trained on RLVR.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

But there might be some other relatively straightforward ways to shoehorn continual learning atop LLMs.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

For example, one could imagine making supervised fine tuning a tool call for the model.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

So the outer loop RL is incentivizing the model to teach itself effectively using supervised learning in order to solve problems that don't fit in the context window.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

Now, I'm genuinely agnostic about how well techniques like this will work.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

I'm not an AI researcher.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

but I wouldn't be surprised if they basically replicate continual learning.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

And the reason is that models are already demonstrating something resembling human continual learning within their context windows.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

The fact that in-context learning emerged spontaneously from the training incentive to process long sequences makes me think that if information could just flow across windows longer than the context limit, then models could meta-learn the same flexibility that they already show in context.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

Okay, some concluding thoughts.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Some thoughts on the Sutton interview

Evolution does meta-RL to make an RL agent, and that agent can selectively do imitation learning.