Erica Chenoweth

ultimately multinational corporations pulling out of the country, whether it was strikes and work stoppages combined with massive protests and marches.

Like, that is ultimately what pressured the business class to pressure the National Party, which was the pro-apartheid party, to elect a reformer in de Klerk when they had the opportunity to do so.

And when he came to power in the National Party, he immediately pushed through legislation to unban the ANC and start negotiations.

And they found a path to a democratic transition without a civil war in a country that looked like it was on the path to either continued democracy

you know, military garrison state with a white supremacist government, or it was on the path to civil war.

And so they found that way, and it was because of the pressure put on the business community to change what they viewed as their own interests and the stakes.

And so, like, I think they are— the business and economic community is so important.

And as you mentioned, there are other cases of—

you know, autocratic breakthrough moments where, you know, if big business had acted a different way, it probably would have created huge amounts of friction.

And instead they didn't.

And so it didn't.

I'm going to give a totally unsatisfying response because it depends on the context, which is to say- You mean nuanced?

Yeah, which is to say- There's some nuance there?

I think it depends on the durability of it, right?

And actually how much cost is imposed.

I also think that imposing costs is not the only way to change behavior, right?

So there are other ways to change behavior, negotiating, inducements, trying to get, you know, sometimes an oppositional approach or an adversarial approach like that is necessary to demonstrate what can happen or what the consequences are of inaction or complicity.

And sometimes there's low-hanging fruit sometimes.

And just finding a way to identify shared interest and then go with that is another way.

There's a study out by one of my colleagues, Jonathan Pinkney, who together, I think, with another author or two was talking about